1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed) 15 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
Some people have been saying this is TOO much a nerf for PVE. That even just the 10% damage loss is too big (dunno if I agree but) to make an adjustment in THAT area if its needed I would say:
6) Battle Awareness (T4 Dest) Slam grants 25% more power while active AND does 25% more damage. (Could even bring this up to a 50% power increase) I THINK this would be primarily used for PVE since most PVP GWFs dont stack much power (3-4k) so the increase isnt HUGE and more GWFs dont use slam in PVP as well.
I think that being a T4 feat should be were the DPS increase could come from.
Overall though, the change to Destroyers in several areas makes them too squishy. I think the nerf was too far - as evidenced by the sprint change as well. I think that will only cause more problems.
I I still plead with you Chris, please adjust to the changes above, Sprint should stay primarily as a gap closer - sure add CC RESIST to make it more viable.
THEN if you want, you can buff Sprint up for Instigators - maybe add the 30% DR or even CC immunity to make Instigators have a unique build there.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed) 15 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
Some people have been saying this is TOO much a nerf for PVE. That even just the 10% damage loss is too big (dunno if I agree but) to make an adjustment in THAT area if its needed I would say:
6) Battle Awareness (T4 Dest) Slam grants 25% more power while active AND does 25% more damage. (Could even bring this up to a 50% power increase) I THINK this would be primarily used for PVE since most PVP GWFs dont stack much power (3-4k) so the increase isnt HUGE and more GWFs dont use slam in PVP as well.
I think that being a T4 feat should be were the DPS increase could come from.
Overall though, the change to Destroyers in several areas makes them too squishy. I think the nerf was too far - as evidenced by the sprint change as well. I think that will only cause more problems.
I I still plead with you Chris, please adjust to the changes above, Sprint should stay primarily as a gap closer - sure add CC RESIST to make it more viable.
THEN if you want, you can buff Sprint up for Instigators - maybe add the 30% DR or even CC immunity to make Instigators have a unique build there.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% 15 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed dmg and prone stay as they are on live.
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
I agree this is acceptable nerf. But what we have now is too much ,total class destroy having rank 9-10 enchants + full BI and perfect enchants give not the feeling y are greaded its more like i am fine not good or awesome vs the other 5 class greaded .
Its more like DC i can bear some hits then i die the big difference is DC can heal.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% 15 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed dmg and prone stay as they are on live.
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
I agree this is acceptable nerf. But what we have now is too much ,total class destroy having rank 9-10 enchants + full BI and perfect enchants give not the feeling y are greaded its more like i am fine not good or awesome vs the other 5 class greaded .
Its more like DC i can bear some hits then i die the big difference is DC can heal.
100% agree. The changes are too much and in the wrong areas. There were only a FEW things causing the GWF to be the powerhouse in PVP it is now:
1) Roar stun - was for 2 seconds/AoE/Build determination
2) Unstoppable Recovery - didnt repsect healing depression - combined with Roar allowed for MASSIVE healing
3) Destroyer Purpose stacks - 25% on any attack to gain a stack - with 3 stacks was ~40% damage buff.
Those are truly the ONLY areas causing GWFs to be OP, but since people STILL want to nerf their tankiness thats where I think a slight nerf COULD work wiht 15-30% UNSTOPPABLE.
On the Topic of Black Ice gear - it fails pretty hard in comparison to Profound Gear for PVP. I was pretty disappointed.
the reason: Profound offers a fixed % deflect where as Black Ice only offers stats - so Diminishing returns end up eating a large majority of the benefits.
I honestly think the 4pc set needs a significant buff - along with the weapon proc as well to be much less of an ICD. Just my opinion and since this is hte same across all classes, it honestly would be a balance across all classes.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
edited June 2014
From some IWD testing, Destroyer feels fairly similar, except less insanely invulnerable. When soloing tougher HE's, I actually have to move away from some attacks, rather than facetanking them, and use armor with some defense, rather than soloing with AoW everywhere. I suspect swapping to Endless Consumption would help a lot here, but I also doubt it'll be an issue in appropriate scale PvE encounters.
I haven't had a chance to PvP yet, but suspect that the loss of 20% DR in unstoppable will double incoming damage, minimum, which will hurt a lot. On the other hand, I remain fairly tanky outside of unstoppable, so it's possible this will hurt less than I expect. Bringing back Armor Penetration Suppression, or increasing DR on Unstoppable to 15-30%, would alleviate this a lot, perhaps with an accompanying nerf to Destroyer's Purpose. This would normalize GWF power a bit.
Otherwise, changes look fine. The super-taunt after successful IBS execution sounds hilarious.
Having played the GWF for quite a while and noting the new changes on the preview shard I have some feedback regarding the changes/nerfs coming to this class:
1) Destroyer: By taking away all the damage/prones in the Vanguard path and nerfing unstoppable to 5-10% damage reduction you have made this class unable to survive for more than a few seconds. With no dodges/shield/shift/teleports we are a prime target. Unstoppable was the only thing that kept us alive. If you dial the damage resistance down this much Destroyers will die to any ranged class and perhaps melee classes before they have the ability to do damage. Not only that but if GWF's can't prone they will almost never land IBS appropriately. It will be the ultimate in frustration and ultimately kill this path/tree for end game PVP. The only way to make this tree viable is to leave the damage and take away the tankiness somewhat. If you nerf both, Destroyer is destroyed.
2)Sentinel: While leaving the sentinel tree basically intact with the 25-50% unstoppable damage reduction, you completely took away their ability to do any meaningful damage. With the changes to Power and the high hit point/high defense/high deflection many other classes have at end game they will never kill anything. Couple this with the crippling changes to threatening rush for vanguards in general (our only true gap closer) and our inability to prone and you have made sentinels threadbare punching bags.
All this said, I'm fully on board with the idea that GWF's need to be nerfed. I've said it since the introduction of Mod 3. Having played a GWF for a very long time as my main I hated it when everyone rolled a GWF during this mod because they became so OP. I want my class back, and I'm tired of being called a "loser OP class". So here are some possible ways to change the GWF dynamic.
1)Destroyers: They have too much in the way of feat dependent damage. Focused destroyer and destroyer's Purpose give a crazy amount of damage to Destroyers. The way that PVP GWF's get stacks of Destroyer's purpose up is by using a plaguefire which gives them the stacks in a couple of swings giving them major damage bonus. You could simply change these dynamics by making it difficult to get these stacks, or change the bonus percentages, rather than allowing them to build so quickly and hit so hard. Thus you nerf the damage bonus against classes that are difficult to hit. If you're going to nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers be more conservative, give them a 20-40% damage resistance rather than completely making unstoppable a useless gesture. For all trees of GWF's don't get rid of all the prones or you break the ability of their heavy hitting damage dealing encounter IBS. Also you could simply decrease the feat relentless battle fury which is what makes roar and takedown (2 rather bad PVE encounters I might add) spammable abilities.
2)Sentinels: Give them either more damage resistance/CC immunity or more control if you are going to nerf their damage this badly. If you don't then they will simply run around the node until they die unable to effectively counter any class. You could allow Sentinels to use restoring strike without healing depression which would give them survivablilty so they can maintain some relevance.
Some other suggestions: If you are going to give threatening rush usable charges then have it function like lunging strike closing massive distances accurately (not as much damage obviously as lunging strike), this would make it viable.
If you are looking to go the stun route instead of prones, give GWF's at least one prone to wind up for the IBS to keep it viable.
If you are trying to Push (as I suspect) GWF's away from vanguard then give us viable gap closers with the swordmaster path. Flourish is fine and we get to keep IBS but Punishing charge as a gap closer leaves something to be desired as you often end up quite a distance from the target making it a poor choice. Lastly I would ask, rather kindly, please do not do what you have done to TR's or GF's in the past which is make sweeping changes (even more potentially to the GWF's with changing two of their base class abilities... sprint and unstoppable) to correct an obvious OP problem. You will only cause more grief and crying. Small changes over time, fixing OP problems with a sculpting tool instead of a nerf hammer, that's how classes evolve. Sweeping changes cause major upheaval and make class balancing even more difficult as the over-correction often swings the class into the under-powered sphere. My biggest fear is that I will log into mod 4 and feel like I'm playing a foreign class. One that doesn't function like anything prior to that mod. Like I picked one class and got the bait and switch for some other alien class. Please don't make that happen.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
*edit: I took the time to think this out and post it, but for some reason I didn't see it the next time I went to post. Not sure if it got cut, but I would appreciate having it left here since I took the time to think this through and discuss pros and cons at some length. Thank you.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
Its more like DC i can bear some hits then i die the big difference is DC can heal.
DC can only heal self at 10% value. Unstoppable will probably heal more even after heal depression correction. Also DC does almost no damage and has no CC immunity/break button. So, no, definitely not like DC at all.
As for the purposed changes: I think they are fitting. I'm a bit worried over the sprint dynamics as there have been issues with hits being registered even after I've sprinted some distance from enemy (outside melee range yet they hit with melee attack). This may be network related though. I hate to say this but I would almost prefer a couple dodges over sprint.
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized." COLOR="#40E0D0"]OK good to know[/COLOR
Mark: Mark effects will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.COLOR="#40E0D0"]don't actually care[/COLOR
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.COLOR="#40E0D0"]i think u probably should have just made sure that it shouldn't pass through cc immune target and give us back the 2 sec prone as already nerfed down takedown and FS[/COLOR
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.[have u ever seen takedown doing any intended dmg in pvp , the dmg buff for takedown was due to the destroyer purpose feat in destroyer class now since u made sure that player have to choose between destro and sentinel so i think u should again think about it whether it should still be 30% dmg reduction]
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.[i think again some mistake just like dmg reduction , u just made a sentinel gwf with 12sec cooldown on takedown not being able to knock anybody making gwf a punching bag in pvp since cw,dc,hr,tr will dodge, if u still making sure to keep this as it is so make sure if somebody dodge from takdown the takedown dont go under cooldown than cause it basically making gwf useless in pvp as no takedown meaning no FS on them and also no IBS to follow up , any gwf starts his attack with takedown so if nobody is knocked we cant follow up ]
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5-10% damage resist when activated (down from 25-50%)[u just killed destro GWF , make 20%-35% for destro and as it is for sent, or if u keeping as it is give gwf bravery feat a buff to increase more deflection chance and also give it some passive ability of dodge every 5-10 sec , and since u did this and introduce tenacity maybe u could give back the slam with crit like other classes aoe , hr aoe also crit so why cant we gwf have them too?]
Sentinel's Aegis Feat: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.[OK let me say as unstoppable recovery feat will follow healing depression u should make aegis give gwf some incoming healing bonuses (like 20% incoming healing bonus) ]
Unstoppable Recovery Feat: The heal from this feat will now properly respect healing depression.COLOR="#40E0D0"]explained above[/COLOR
as for FS keep it to gwf only (not to gf ) but i hope u rethink about knocks from gwf from takedown and FS cause that's the only source of gwf survivability .
think from a destro point of view plz , u r making sure all class should be balance so make GWF don't remain a punching bag in pvp , as we can dont dodge , are have pure melee damages don't make me kill my own GWF by me .
well if u still dont listen to players feedback well u will loose at least 1 player from neverwinter.
18.6k PVP GWF P bark + g plague+rank 9/10 ( will soon become underdog and a punching bag , cause my manger(DEV) have broken my arms and leg and told me to fight PUN intended ) 18k PVE GWF p negation+ p vorp+rank 9 full destroyer based ( dev gave death sentence and will be executed in august PUN intended)
1) Destroyer: you have made this class unable to survive for more than a few seconds.
+1
Here is feedback about what a Destr is, incredible that the community has to explain it to the devs but well, mayb e the mods removing all the feedback doesn't help either. So, devs, here is how a fight goes when a destr gwf meets a regular, nothing-spacial, group of pve foes. Once again devs, not soloing an epic dungeon or anything, just a random destr meeting a random group of foes with one semi-elite and four trash.
-) Fight starts, gwf removes 10% of the foes hp bar, foes remove 50% of gwf's hp, Unstoppable bar fills up.
-) Gwf hits Tab key, he now has three or four seconds with good DR, he removes abother 10% of foes hp bar, while refilling his own hp bar though LifeSteal. Yes three or four seconds, not more. And no, the gwf does not remove more HP from foe's bar when in Unstoppable mode. Unstoppable reduces the base damage and the attack-speed bonus does nothing for dailies, encounters, and almost nithing for Sure strike. And yes devs, a group of foes easily removes 50% of a destr ho bar. A gwf has no plate armour, and a Destr has no huge HP pool.
-) Rinse and repeat, after five or six cycles of Unstoppable, the group of foes is dead.
Not too impressive, uh?
But now, devs, what do you imagine will happen when the a mod4 gwf meets some foes in IWD?
-) First part unchanged, gwf takes damage, loses half his HP and fills his Unstoppable bar.
-) Now what? Unstoppable? Typing /dance would be just as efficient. He sprints? That makes no sense, gwf is not a ranged class, sorry to have to explain this to you devs. What else? The gwf does not sprint and keeps fighting? Well, he removes another 10% of the foes HP bar, and the foes remove the last half af the gwf"s HP
Yes devs, your mod4 Destr dies in a matter of seconds against a mere group of foes. No field boss, no Black ice damage, no legion of trolls dancing around campfire, just the little group of foes that you meet twenty times per hour.
Suggestions are obvious, simple, easy to implement:
-) Sprint is for running AT the foes, not AWAY from them. Give a 60% damage bonus for three seconds at the end of the sprint.
-) Remove the target cap
-) Remove the LifeSteal Diminshing retourn for gwfs
-) Increase the base damage of weapons. Since day #1 the NWO 2H sword delivers less damage than a... dagger.
-) Oh and of course, remove IV, give it back to GF, and design an actual paragon for gwfs.
http://postimg.org/image/jg6meoeh9/
i tested myself soloing merothrax in icespire and as in the images are the stats which i currently run on in PVE settings ,
till the negation was active i didnt have any problem against merothrax but after it ends the damage i recieve is actually able to decrease my health by 1/4 from just his claw strike and counting that the merothrax is only level 60 , (while havent even tested on against PVP player and 60+ mob) also i have endless consumption but it was really making my health goes near the edge of last 2k of my health too if i fight like i used to . Merothrax deals 1674 (8016) Physical Damage to you with Claw. (while negation active)
Merothrax deals 3912 (12336) Physical Damage to you with Bite. (negation+unstoppable)
Merothrax deals 4080 (9766) Physical Damage to you with Wing Blast. (unstoppable only)
i like to state that i was running here and there to dodge it attacks.
u can see if i fight like normal i will die while just fighting normal level 60 mobs.
while i soloed it but took so much time on level 60 mobs. so it shows whether i use unstoppable or not it doesnt help me in anyway
also new mob blue dragon wing [Combat (Self)] Your Indomitable Battle Strike gives 0 (7873) Physical Damage to Blue Dragonwing.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 22 (22) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 0 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Blue Dragonwing deals 1608 (2920) Physical Damage to you with Stab.( normal damage taken level 60 opponent)
please up the the dmg resistance provided by unstoppable, this just against level 60 mobs how can i survive against level 65 mobs in epic dungeon.
have soloed epic karru with these settings but i doubt i will be able to survive now in just 1st batch of mobs from karru entrance.
on another note there is graphic lag when fighting merothrax , the damage is already done then i see red area there.
- Untoppable at least 15-30%. We already have determination gain reduced and unstoppable can't be used in PvP for a brief period when under attack (on live). Why nerf it further?
- GWFs need to prone the enemy to IBS. IBS is everything a GWF uses to deal damage. Don't take away the prone from takedown. Prones are already reduced in duration and takedown can be dodged.
Question: stuns still leave the enemies able to use powers?
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
I know it is not easy to balance the game and keep us happy and satified, so I would like to thank you for your efforts. This changes will make GWF a more balanced class because base on my observation both in pvp and pve, this class is a one-man-army or in other words owning atm. GWF can dish heavy damage bot single and aoe, further more they are durable and have a prone-lock rotation which is very very deadly in pvp. It would be more balance if the GWF will not get all the good stuff and be distributed to all children of Neverwinter
please stay on topic. discussions or references to other classes will be removed. anything that is not direct preview shard feedback may be considered to be a discussion and moved to the appropriate discussion thread.
Did not get a chance to do a thorough evaluation of the changes on Preview yet. Was hoping to do a few dungeon runs but was difficult to find groups at the time I was logged in (about 8:30 GMT) and I was told that most people are awaiting for further changes to be implemented on preview prior to getting around to testing. And I don't run ACT.
So i did a couple of runs of the Hammerstone dwarf raiders HE in Dwarven Valley. My build is a Swordmaster Destroyer (approx. 14.7k GS) with 6k Power, 3.8k Crit, 1.7k Recovery, 22% Ar.P, 38% Damage resistance and 10% Lifesteal (all approximate values) and a Vorpal/Soulforged/Avatar of War (rank 7 radiants)/Dread legion weapon setup. I can usually run this HE easily in 1.5- 2 minutes on Live (only two waves of mobs).
One try with current build (specced for damage so all 30 points on Destroyer tree and all dps Heroic feats) and I took a lot of damage, ended up soul-forging once and just barely survived completing it around 2.5-3 minutes. Switched over to defensive heroic feats (for defense/armor class/constitution) and added 5 points on Unstoppable Recovery. This allowed a marked increase in survivability (although I was still continuously sprinting to avoid damage) and I was again able to complete this HE in about 3 mins.
Skills used for all runs - Roar (no idea how much impact this has between Live and Preview on PvE- I use it for determination building+dps), IBS and Mighty Leap as encounters, Sure strike and WMS as at wills and Spinning strike as daily (mostly for testing..I normally prefer Avalanche).
So yes, it is possible to adapt at 14k+ GS, switching your build for survivability. Someone suggested using Daring Shout, which again is a great suggestion for survivability due to the Damage resistance buff; however, since it is not a damage dealing skill and without supporting feats, I prefer not to use this, it may also unnecessarily drawm mobs off an actual tank if you have one in party (needs testing with current threat changes). However, with that said, I do feel it will be quite challenging for newly leveling GWFs as well as lower GS Destroyer builds.
The other gripe I have with this Unstoppable change is that, while it may seem as solely a defensive nerf, it actually translates to a dps nerf as well, since you are constantly sprinting to avoid damage. So while a Sentinel will deal very weak damage, a Destroyer will also be comparatively much weaker on Paingiver charts than what they are on Live (Needs testing. i am looking for a rainbow group to run parallel tests with a stable group on Live and Preview). And I would not dare ask for a damage buff to compensate further for the indirect damage nerf (because of all the whine it will invite from PvPers). I do not PvP much anymore after all the incessant whining since Mod 2 and the constant bugs/nerf cycle (probably I should ignore forums and get back to it because I actually used to enjoy it).
I understand that the above tests were not the most methodical and will make another attempt to do it better (over the next weekend). I also know that the Hammerstone dwarves HE is not the most difficult, but last time I tried soloing a totem on Live, i failed, so I havent tried again (and I am hearing the Totem mob levels are different possibly on Live and Preview-needs confirmation). Also a diifference between 1.5 mins and 2-3 mins may not seem like much but it may scale up drastically in epic dungeons and HE.
I am indeed hoping that the developers take into account the feedback and suggestions on this thread. Primarily to cut Unstoppable damage resistance to 12.5-25 (and add a 2x multiplier for Sentinel feat) from current 5-10% (on Preview). Also to not take away Prone from Takedown and FLS (rather increase their cooldown to prevent spamming) in PvP. Thanks.
Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Come and Get It and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Man... While I appreciate that it seems like your reading SOME of the feedback (Unstoppable 10-20%). I have to say I am vastly underwhelmed and not happy about this being the only changes you want to fix...
Takedown NEEDS to prone or have like 3x longer stun.
Frontline - when feated NEEDS to prone or have 3x longer stun
-due to tancity the stun is RIDICULOUSLY short.
Unstoppable at 10-20% I can live with - if keeping the 30% DR on sprint+CC immunity. Id STILL prefer you nerf Sprint, and bring Unstoppable back up a tad....
Overall I just feel like this will cause more balance issues
Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
i hope you still realize that if unstoppable is now back up to "Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%)."
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects. (people will run sentinel because its the only effective build for pvp) on top of CC immunity AND 30% dr while sprinting? thats ridiculous, its already hard enough to clear a gwf on a node, and now you want to make them go back to the 45% base DR 40% deflect build and giving them an additional 50% DR through unstoppable and sprint. by the time you get a gwf down to about 10k health from roughly his 44k hp (which a good gwf will have) in a premade a DC can EASILY rotate to you in that time and heal you back up to full. effectively holding a node perminately through 1 person.
You seriously need to rethink this. hell you can even keep gwfs where they are right now, and only change threatening rush and roar and they would be fine.
seriously, things like this make me think that devs do not even think about how changes can effect other feats and how things synergize in actual gameplay. also try testing things on other max geared players instead of target dummys. its vastly different.
think about how this effects cws. you are giving the 2nd strongest class, even more tanking features and cc immunity during sprint, AND they get cc immunity through unstoppable. AND they get 100% DR through unstoppable AND you are nerfing damage of CWs in pvp.
look at how you effect cws through HRs. you are adding insane self healing capabilities to make up for a bugged set. they can get up to 40% deflect. you are giving them a aimshot that can crit for 40k. you still havent fixed the bug where HR's can charge up their crit through that feat that every time you do not crit you gain like 5% crit chance. (you can spam an atwill which will charge it up) you are buffing the damage of thornward (it hits 12k ticks on max geared players on ptr) it covers and entire node, and it lasts for like 10 seconds. If you dont start thinking about how you effect your game im going to quit. and ive been playing since june of last year.
I like that GWFs are getting a bit more love on the tanking front, but threat is the only niche GFs have. Sentinels already have the upper hand in survivability (don't see the block change altering that), so they should not be on par in holding threat. I don't own a geared Sentinel to compare, just saying.
Also Weapon Master is STACKED now. Crit, Deflect, AC and Threat? I would much rather see Battle Trample getting an increase in Threat generation.
I like that GWFs are getting a bit more love on the tanking front, but threat is the only niche GFs have. Sentinels already have the upper hand in survivability (don't see the block change altering that), so they should not be on par in holding threat. I don't own a geared Sentinel to compare, just saying.
Also Weapon Master is STACKED now. Crit, Deflect, AC and Threat? I would much rather see Battle Trample getting an increase in Threat generation.
Battle Trample is a paragon path feat, so changing it would not allow it for all sentinels to have it. But i agree with you. So many effects on ONE passive is silly.
Hey all! I wanted to drop in and let you know about a handful more changes to GWFs (mostly to Sentinels) that should be in the next patch. It is looking like the new patch with all the changes that have been talked about are hitting this week barring anything going wrong.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
Feats
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
PROBLEM: GWFs Cant Land any attacks in PVP because they have no prones or adequate stuns to do so. Any competent player (DC/CW/TR/HR) can easily shift dodge faster than your animation on IBS. Not even a takedown stun or frontline stun keeps them in place long enough for IBS to take effect.
FEEDBACK: significantly increase stun duration or bring back the Prone!
Hey all, I wanted to drop by and share another set of changes we are making as well as some of the rationale behind the prone changes.
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Hey all, I wanted to drop by and share another set of changes we are making as well as some of the rationale behind the prone changes.
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks for the Updates Crush...
I'll need to test the 2 Second Prone and see if it's enough to reliably land GWF encounters such as Indomitable Battle Strike, but as always appreciate the feed back and the hands on approach! :cool:
all changes for GWF class General Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized. Sprint:Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive. (finally GWF sprint useful rather than use for running away) Powers Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list. Roar:This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity.Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.(still have problem why is roar nerfed to not make players root, the only problem with roar was being able to pass through CC immunity) Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 10~20%(up from 5~10%) damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%) Takedown:This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~30% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).(u r making players choose between destroyer and swordmaster, then why r u decreasing damage , which will make GWF not able to damage not more than 1k or so after going through there DR and if deflected it goes to like 500 or so , while HR deals like 7k+ dmg with there encounter while GWF damages are being nerfed) Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge:This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~35% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).(same as above) Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. This power now deals ~35% less damage.(same as above) Swordmaster: Weaponmaster's Strike:This power now deals ~10% more damage. SwordmasterFlourish:This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).[ now player will have hard choice to make whether to use swordmaster or IV] Feats Sentinel's Aegis:This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects. Intimidation: [/B]Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%). Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%). Master At Arms:Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
COLOR RED: still have problems BLUE: not much care (passable) GREEN: happy for the changes yellow: problems.
the whole problem with u guys is u think GWF do more damages but u still forget the damage buff is coming from destroyer purpose and base damage for all PVP base toons are really low , in pvp a well made pvp toon when go against a well made pvp toon of any class it does no more damage than 2k-5k based on destroyer purpose stack and critical strike. after the changes gwf will choose sentinel , and there damage will obviously decrease which will make them nothing more than stand ins at the cap till other class comes and help them.
the 2 sec prone u giving is nothing to us , the prone u provide does not stack for gwf like CW has , the duration provide by prones is basic 2 sec which after passing through tenacity will give duration of 1.36sec (counting that other player is PVP toon which has 900 tenacity (20% CC resitant)) and additional CC resistance will be added from artifacts and the ability points , which will further decrease there duration .:(
I agree that prones shouldn't be easy to do, it's a very incapacitating move, the ONLY prone TRS have for instance is a daily, and just for WK. I agree in PVP they should be left for more special moves.
I would like to question the wisdom behind the proposed changes to the class. I am a low level GWF trying to play through normal content with just a companion, as the game prescibed. Looking over the changes,the described changes will severly cripple, if not break the class during pre-endgame progression.
What you have done is gutted the core characteristics of the base class, shifting the balance onto paragon feats, endgame gear, and advanced module boons to plug the holes. This may be all well and fine at the end of the road, when you're crunching the numbers of the upper limits of what a GWF can acomplish, but what about everyone who still has to play the class from level 10-50? With no real "dodge" mechanic, the core class is reliant on the damage mitigation of Unstoppable. This becomes even more vital with the intended nerfs to the damage of early encounter powers.
I will no longer be able to use Unstoppable to "face-tank" incoming damage, nor will I be able to quickly dispose of an enemy damaging me. Please do test your ideas on some mid level content like the Sanatorium quest at Helm's Hold at level 34, with the proposed changes in effect.
If the main motivation is the problem of builds that couple of the damage boost from the Destroyer's capstone feat and Unstoppable's damage mitigation, I have a suggestion for you. Instead of forcing everyone to take the Sentinel's capstone to achieve the class's initial survivability, why not just put an addition into the Destroyer's capstone that decreases it?
It can be something as straight forward as "decrease effectivness of Unstoppable's mitigation by 250%", or something more creative like "each stack of Destroyer's Purpose also decreases the damage mitigation of Unstoppable by 1.5%". This way you achieve the same outcome at maximum potential, but leave all the pre-endgame GWFs alone.
Do you plan to eliminate the cooldown on potions, so that I can spam them continually? Or is there a "ranged" paragon path that lets us throw our swords like boomerangs and stay out of melee range? That would be cool too.
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%).
[SNIP]
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I assume you have thought of this, but it wasn't mentioned so I'm mentioning it --
Is the Sentinel capstone going to be adjusted with this to 2.5X unstoppable, or is it staying at 5x for a total 50~100% reduction? I'd assume it is being adjusted to 2.5X.
- B
Intimidation: Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Still no one mentioning,Isn't it Come And Get it and Daring Shout?Or it's Not So Fast as intended.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I still find the DR still a bit too low for unstoppable. 15-30% would have been more perferrable.
Comments
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10% (or even removed)
15 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed.
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
Now this would be a balanced GWF IMO for both PVE and PVP.
Some people have been saying this is TOO much a nerf for PVE. That even just the 10% damage loss is too big (dunno if I agree but) to make an adjustment in THAT area if its needed I would say:
6) Battle Awareness (T4 Dest) Slam grants 25% more power while active AND does 25% more damage. (Could even bring this up to a 50% power increase) I THINK this would be primarily used for PVE since most PVP GWFs dont stack much power (3-4k) so the increase isnt HUGE and more GWFs dont use slam in PVP as well.
I think that being a T4 feat should be were the DPS increase could come from.
Overall though, the change to Destroyers in several areas makes them too squishy. I think the nerf was too far - as evidenced by the sprint change as well. I think that will only cause more problems.
I I still plead with you Chris, please adjust to the changes above, Sprint should stay primarily as a gap closer - sure add CC RESIST to make it more viable.
THEN if you want, you can buff Sprint up for Instigators - maybe add the 30% DR or even CC immunity to make Instigators have a unique build there.
1) Unstoppable: 15-30%
2) Destroyers Purpose: chance to grant a stack on ANY attack reduced to 10%
15 stacks
4) Takedown damage NOT nerfed dmg and prone stay as they are on live.
5) Sprint now grants 100% CC RESISTANCE
I agree this is acceptable nerf. But what we have now is too much ,total class destroy having rank 9-10 enchants + full BI and perfect enchants give not the feeling y are greaded its more like i am fine not good or awesome vs the other 5 class greaded .
Its more like DC i can bear some hits then i die the big difference is DC can heal.
100% agree. The changes are too much and in the wrong areas. There were only a FEW things causing the GWF to be the powerhouse in PVP it is now:
1) Roar stun - was for 2 seconds/AoE/Build determination
2) Unstoppable Recovery - didnt repsect healing depression - combined with Roar allowed for MASSIVE healing
3) Destroyer Purpose stacks - 25% on any attack to gain a stack - with 3 stacks was ~40% damage buff.
Those are truly the ONLY areas causing GWFs to be OP, but since people STILL want to nerf their tankiness thats where I think a slight nerf COULD work wiht 15-30% UNSTOPPABLE.
On the Topic of Black Ice gear - it fails pretty hard in comparison to Profound Gear for PVP. I was pretty disappointed.
the reason: Profound offers a fixed % deflect where as Black Ice only offers stats - so Diminishing returns end up eating a large majority of the benefits.
I honestly think the 4pc set needs a significant buff - along with the weapon proc as well to be much less of an ICD. Just my opinion and since this is hte same across all classes, it honestly would be a balance across all classes.
I haven't had a chance to PvP yet, but suspect that the loss of 20% DR in unstoppable will double incoming damage, minimum, which will hurt a lot. On the other hand, I remain fairly tanky outside of unstoppable, so it's possible this will hurt less than I expect. Bringing back Armor Penetration Suppression, or increasing DR on Unstoppable to 15-30%, would alleviate this a lot, perhaps with an accompanying nerf to Destroyer's Purpose. This would normalize GWF power a bit.
Otherwise, changes look fine. The super-taunt after successful IBS execution sounds hilarious.
1) Destroyer: By taking away all the damage/prones in the Vanguard path and nerfing unstoppable to 5-10% damage reduction you have made this class unable to survive for more than a few seconds. With no dodges/shield/shift/teleports we are a prime target. Unstoppable was the only thing that kept us alive. If you dial the damage resistance down this much Destroyers will die to any ranged class and perhaps melee classes before they have the ability to do damage. Not only that but if GWF's can't prone they will almost never land IBS appropriately. It will be the ultimate in frustration and ultimately kill this path/tree for end game PVP. The only way to make this tree viable is to leave the damage and take away the tankiness somewhat. If you nerf both, Destroyer is destroyed.
2)Sentinel: While leaving the sentinel tree basically intact with the 25-50% unstoppable damage reduction, you completely took away their ability to do any meaningful damage. With the changes to Power and the high hit point/high defense/high deflection many other classes have at end game they will never kill anything. Couple this with the crippling changes to threatening rush for vanguards in general (our only true gap closer) and our inability to prone and you have made sentinels threadbare punching bags.
All this said, I'm fully on board with the idea that GWF's need to be nerfed. I've said it since the introduction of Mod 3. Having played a GWF for a very long time as my main I hated it when everyone rolled a GWF during this mod because they became so OP. I want my class back, and I'm tired of being called a "loser OP class". So here are some possible ways to change the GWF dynamic.
1)Destroyers: They have too much in the way of feat dependent damage. Focused destroyer and destroyer's Purpose give a crazy amount of damage to Destroyers. The way that PVP GWF's get stacks of Destroyer's purpose up is by using a plaguefire which gives them the stacks in a couple of swings giving them major damage bonus. You could simply change these dynamics by making it difficult to get these stacks, or change the bonus percentages, rather than allowing them to build so quickly and hit so hard. Thus you nerf the damage bonus against classes that are difficult to hit. If you're going to nerf Unstoppable for Destroyers be more conservative, give them a 20-40% damage resistance rather than completely making unstoppable a useless gesture. For all trees of GWF's don't get rid of all the prones or you break the ability of their heavy hitting damage dealing encounter IBS. Also you could simply decrease the feat relentless battle fury which is what makes roar and takedown (2 rather bad PVE encounters I might add) spammable abilities.
2)Sentinels: Give them either more damage resistance/CC immunity or more control if you are going to nerf their damage this badly. If you don't then they will simply run around the node until they die unable to effectively counter any class. You could allow Sentinels to use restoring strike without healing depression which would give them survivablilty so they can maintain some relevance.
Some other suggestions: If you are going to give threatening rush usable charges then have it function like lunging strike closing massive distances accurately (not as much damage obviously as lunging strike), this would make it viable.
If you are looking to go the stun route instead of prones, give GWF's at least one prone to wind up for the IBS to keep it viable.
If you are trying to Push (as I suspect) GWF's away from vanguard then give us viable gap closers with the swordmaster path. Flourish is fine and we get to keep IBS but Punishing charge as a gap closer leaves something to be desired as you often end up quite a distance from the target making it a poor choice. Lastly I would ask, rather kindly, please do not do what you have done to TR's or GF's in the past which is make sweeping changes (even more potentially to the GWF's with changing two of their base class abilities... sprint and unstoppable) to correct an obvious OP problem. You will only cause more grief and crying. Small changes over time, fixing OP problems with a sculpting tool instead of a nerf hammer, that's how classes evolve. Sweeping changes cause major upheaval and make class balancing even more difficult as the over-correction often swings the class into the under-powered sphere. My biggest fear is that I will log into mod 4 and feel like I'm playing a foreign class. One that doesn't function like anything prior to that mod. Like I picked one class and got the bait and switch for some other alien class. Please don't make that happen.
Thanks for your time and consideration.
*edit: I took the time to think this out and post it, but for some reason I didn't see it the next time I went to post. Not sure if it got cut, but I would appreciate having it left here since I took the time to think this through and discuss pros and cons at some length. Thank you.
DC can only heal self at 10% value. Unstoppable will probably heal more even after heal depression correction. Also DC does almost no damage and has no CC immunity/break button. So, no, definitely not like DC at all.
As for the purposed changes: I think they are fitting. I'm a bit worried over the sprint dynamics as there have been issues with hits being registered even after I've sprinted some distance from enemy (outside melee range yet they hit with melee attack). This may be network related though. I hate to say this but I would almost prefer a couple dodges over sprint.
Mark: Mark effects will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.COLOR="#40E0D0"]don't actually care[/COLOR
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.COLOR="#40E0D0"]i think u probably should have just made sure that it shouldn't pass through cc immune target and give us back the 2 sec prone as already nerfed down takedown and FS[/COLOR
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.[have u ever seen takedown doing any intended dmg in pvp , the dmg buff for takedown was due to the destroyer purpose feat in destroyer class now since u made sure that player have to choose between destro and sentinel so i think u should again think about it whether it should still be 30% dmg reduction]
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.[i think again some mistake just like dmg reduction , u just made a sentinel gwf with 12sec cooldown on takedown not being able to knock anybody making gwf a punching bag in pvp since cw,dc,hr,tr will dodge, if u still making sure to keep this as it is so make sure if somebody dodge from takdown the takedown dont go under cooldown than cause it basically making gwf useless in pvp as no takedown meaning no FS on them and also no IBS to follow up , any gwf starts his attack with takedown so if nobody is knocked we cant follow up ]
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5-10% damage resist when activated (down from 25-50%)[u just killed destro GWF , make 20%-35% for destro and as it is for sent, or if u keeping as it is give gwf bravery feat a buff to increase more deflection chance and also give it some passive ability of dodge every 5-10 sec , and since u did this and introduce tenacity maybe u could give back the slam with crit like other classes aoe , hr aoe also crit so why cant we gwf have them too?]
Sentinel's Aegis Feat: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.[OK let me say as unstoppable recovery feat will follow healing depression u should make aegis give gwf some incoming healing bonuses (like 20% incoming healing bonus) ]
Unstoppable Recovery Feat: The heal from this feat will now properly respect healing depression.COLOR="#40E0D0"]explained above[/COLOR
as for FS keep it to gwf only (not to gf ) but i hope u rethink about knocks from gwf from takedown and FS cause that's the only source of gwf survivability .
think from a destro point of view plz , u r making sure all class should be balance so make GWF don't remain a punching bag in pvp , as we can dont dodge , are have pure melee damages don't make me kill my own GWF by me .
well if u still dont listen to players feedback well u will loose at least 1 player from neverwinter.
18.6k PVP GWF P bark + g plague+rank 9/10 ( will soon become underdog and a punching bag , cause my manger(DEV) have broken my arms and leg and told me to fight PUN intended )
18k PVE GWF p negation+ p vorp+rank 9 full destroyer based ( dev gave death sentence and will be executed in august PUN intended)
+1
Here is feedback about what a Destr is, incredible that the community has to explain it to the devs but well, mayb e the mods removing all the feedback doesn't help either. So, devs, here is how a fight goes when a destr gwf meets a regular, nothing-spacial, group of pve foes. Once again devs, not soloing an epic dungeon or anything, just a random destr meeting a random group of foes with one semi-elite and four trash.
-) Fight starts, gwf removes 10% of the foes hp bar, foes remove 50% of gwf's hp, Unstoppable bar fills up.
-) Gwf hits Tab key, he now has three or four seconds with good DR, he removes abother 10% of foes hp bar, while refilling his own hp bar though LifeSteal. Yes three or four seconds, not more. And no, the gwf does not remove more HP from foe's bar when in Unstoppable mode. Unstoppable reduces the base damage and the attack-speed bonus does nothing for dailies, encounters, and almost nithing for Sure strike. And yes devs, a group of foes easily removes 50% of a destr ho bar. A gwf has no plate armour, and a Destr has no huge HP pool.
-) Rinse and repeat, after five or six cycles of Unstoppable, the group of foes is dead.
Not too impressive, uh?
But now, devs, what do you imagine will happen when the a mod4 gwf meets some foes in IWD?
-) First part unchanged, gwf takes damage, loses half his HP and fills his Unstoppable bar.
-) Now what? Unstoppable? Typing /dance would be just as efficient. He sprints? That makes no sense, gwf is not a ranged class, sorry to have to explain this to you devs. What else? The gwf does not sprint and keeps fighting? Well, he removes another 10% of the foes HP bar, and the foes remove the last half af the gwf"s HP
Yes devs, your mod4 Destr dies in a matter of seconds against a mere group of foes. No field boss, no Black ice damage, no legion of trolls dancing around campfire, just the little group of foes that you meet twenty times per hour.
Suggestions are obvious, simple, easy to implement:
-) Sprint is for running AT the foes, not AWAY from them. Give a 60% damage bonus for three seconds at the end of the sprint.
-) Remove the target cap
-) Remove the LifeSteal Diminshing retourn for gwfs
-) Increase the base damage of weapons. Since day #1 the NWO 2H sword delivers less damage than a... dagger.
-) Oh and of course, remove IV, give it back to GF, and design an actual paragon for gwfs.
i tested myself soloing merothrax in icespire and as in the images are the stats which i currently run on in PVE settings ,
till the negation was active i didnt have any problem against merothrax but after it ends the damage i recieve is actually able to decrease my health by 1/4 from just his claw strike and counting that the merothrax is only level 60 , (while havent even tested on against PVP player and 60+ mob) also i have endless consumption but it was really making my health goes near the edge of last 2k of my health too if i fight like i used to .
Merothrax deals 1674 (8016) Physical Damage to you with Claw. (while negation active)
Merothrax deals 3912 (12336) Physical Damage to you with Bite. (negation+unstoppable)
Merothrax deals 4080 (9766) Physical Damage to you with Wing Blast. (unstoppable only)
i like to state that i was running here and there to dodge it attacks.
u can see if i fight like normal i will die while just fighting normal level 60 mobs.
while i soloed it but took so much time on level 60 mobs.
so it shows whether i use unstoppable or not it doesnt help me in anyway
also new mob blue dragon wing
[Combat (Self)] Your Indomitable Battle Strike gives 0 (7873) Physical Damage to Blue Dragonwing.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 22 (22) Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Your Health Steal gives 0 Hit Points to you.
[Combat (Self)] Blue Dragonwing deals 1608 (2920) Physical Damage to you with Stab.( normal damage taken level 60 opponent)
please up the the dmg resistance provided by unstoppable, this just against level 60 mobs how can i survive against level 65 mobs in epic dungeon.
have soloed epic karru with these settings but i doubt i will be able to survive now in just 1st batch of mobs from karru entrance.
on another note there is graphic lag when fighting merothrax , the damage is already done then i see red area there.
also if u r intrested in my combat log against merothrax without p negation u can check it out here.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S64L4VSdCEtWoS4OXnUtAsDZeLgrXvtGrcFu3F3McaI
combat log against iron golem in icespire heart in merothrax area and me just taking damage
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rEbT8SR6ojjaH0en_SbRp7RwYdaNzsVklk_GXXmZpvw/edit?usp=sharing
- Untoppable at least 15-30%. We already have determination gain reduced and unstoppable can't be used in PvP for a brief period when under attack (on live). Why nerf it further?
- GWFs need to prone the enemy to IBS. IBS is everything a GWF uses to deal damage. Don't take away the prone from takedown. Prones are already reduced in duration and takedown can be dodged.
Question: stuns still leave the enemies able to use powers?
so can u tell me whether its pvp based or pve ?
I know it is not easy to balance the game and keep us happy and satified, so I would like to thank you for your efforts. This changes will make GWF a more balanced class because base on my observation both in pvp and pve, this class is a one-man-army or in other words owning atm. GWF can dish heavy damage bot single and aoe, further more they are durable and have a prone-lock rotation which is very very deadly in pvp. It would be more balance if the GWF will not get all the good stuff and be distributed to all children of Neverwinter
thanks.
So i did a couple of runs of the Hammerstone dwarf raiders HE in Dwarven Valley. My build is a Swordmaster Destroyer (approx. 14.7k GS) with 6k Power, 3.8k Crit, 1.7k Recovery, 22% Ar.P, 38% Damage resistance and 10% Lifesteal (all approximate values) and a Vorpal/Soulforged/Avatar of War (rank 7 radiants)/Dread legion weapon setup. I can usually run this HE easily in 1.5- 2 minutes on Live (only two waves of mobs).
One try with current build (specced for damage so all 30 points on Destroyer tree and all dps Heroic feats) and I took a lot of damage, ended up soul-forging once and just barely survived completing it around 2.5-3 minutes. Switched over to defensive heroic feats (for defense/armor class/constitution) and added 5 points on Unstoppable Recovery. This allowed a marked increase in survivability (although I was still continuously sprinting to avoid damage) and I was again able to complete this HE in about 3 mins.
Skills used for all runs - Roar (no idea how much impact this has between Live and Preview on PvE- I use it for determination building+dps), IBS and Mighty Leap as encounters, Sure strike and WMS as at wills and Spinning strike as daily (mostly for testing..I normally prefer Avalanche).
So yes, it is possible to adapt at 14k+ GS, switching your build for survivability. Someone suggested using Daring Shout, which again is a great suggestion for survivability due to the Damage resistance buff; however, since it is not a damage dealing skill and without supporting feats, I prefer not to use this, it may also unnecessarily drawm mobs off an actual tank if you have one in party (needs testing with current threat changes). However, with that said, I do feel it will be quite challenging for newly leveling GWFs as well as lower GS Destroyer builds.
The other gripe I have with this Unstoppable change is that, while it may seem as solely a defensive nerf, it actually translates to a dps nerf as well, since you are constantly sprinting to avoid damage. So while a Sentinel will deal very weak damage, a Destroyer will also be comparatively much weaker on Paingiver charts than what they are on Live (Needs testing. i am looking for a rainbow group to run parallel tests with a stable group on Live and Preview). And I would not dare ask for a damage buff to compensate further for the indirect damage nerf (because of all the whine it will invite from PvPers). I do not PvP much anymore after all the incessant whining since Mod 2 and the constant bugs/nerf cycle (probably I should ignore forums and get back to it because I actually used to enjoy it).
I understand that the above tests were not the most methodical and will make another attempt to do it better (over the next weekend). I also know that the Hammerstone dwarves HE is not the most difficult, but last time I tried soloing a totem on Live, i failed, so I havent tried again (and I am hearing the Totem mob levels are different possibly on Live and Preview-needs confirmation). Also a diifference between 1.5 mins and 2-3 mins may not seem like much but it may scale up drastically in epic dungeons and HE.
I am indeed hoping that the developers take into account the feedback and suggestions on this thread. Primarily to cut Unstoppable damage resistance to 12.5-25 (and add a 2x multiplier for Sentinel feat) from current 5-10% (on Preview). Also to not take away Prone from Takedown and FLS (rather increase their cooldown to prevent spamming) in PvP. Thanks.
We wanted to look at Sentinel's place as tanks and improve that behavior while returning a little more survivability to Unstoppable as a whole. We felt that improving threat generation on some Sentinel feats as well as making them slightly more desirable for tanks would go a long way to helping out their role. As such we are making the following changes.
Powers
Feats
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Man... While I appreciate that it seems like your reading SOME of the feedback (Unstoppable 10-20%). I have to say I am vastly underwhelmed and not happy about this being the only changes you want to fix...
Takedown NEEDS to prone or have like 3x longer stun.
Frontline - when feated NEEDS to prone or have 3x longer stun
-due to tancity the stun is RIDICULOUSLY short.
Unstoppable at 10-20% I can live with - if keeping the 30% DR on sprint+CC immunity. Id STILL prefer you nerf Sprint, and bring Unstoppable back up a tad....
Overall I just feel like this will cause more balance issues
i hope you still realize that if unstoppable is now back up to "Unstoppable now grants 10~20% Damage Resistance (up from 5~10%)."
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects. (people will run sentinel because its the only effective build for pvp) on top of CC immunity AND 30% dr while sprinting? thats ridiculous, its already hard enough to clear a gwf on a node, and now you want to make them go back to the 45% base DR 40% deflect build and giving them an additional 50% DR through unstoppable and sprint. by the time you get a gwf down to about 10k health from roughly his 44k hp (which a good gwf will have) in a premade a DC can EASILY rotate to you in that time and heal you back up to full. effectively holding a node perminately through 1 person.
You seriously need to rethink this. hell you can even keep gwfs where they are right now, and only change threatening rush and roar and they would be fine.
seriously, things like this make me think that devs do not even think about how changes can effect other feats and how things synergize in actual gameplay. also try testing things on other max geared players instead of target dummys. its vastly different.
think about how this effects cws. you are giving the 2nd strongest class, even more tanking features and cc immunity during sprint, AND they get cc immunity through unstoppable. AND they get 100% DR through unstoppable AND you are nerfing damage of CWs in pvp.
look at how you effect cws through HRs. you are adding insane self healing capabilities to make up for a bugged set. they can get up to 40% deflect. you are giving them a aimshot that can crit for 40k. you still havent fixed the bug where HR's can charge up their crit through that feat that every time you do not crit you gain like 5% crit chance. (you can spam an atwill which will charge it up) you are buffing the damage of thornward (it hits 12k ticks on max geared players on ptr) it covers and entire node, and it lasts for like 10 seconds. If you dont start thinking about how you effect your game im going to quit. and ive been playing since june of last year.
I'll get on testing it a bit, my PvE Sentinel will definitely like some of the changes to Threat Generation...
The Unstoppable increase, for Destroyer/Instigator, should be helpful... Particularly with the Sprint changes. :cool:
PS - When will these go on Preview?
PSS - I am also of the opinion that the Prone's on Takedown/Frontline Surge should remain in PvP instead of changing to Stuns. Just FYI!
Also Weapon Master is STACKED now. Crit, Deflect, AC and Threat? I would much rather see Battle Trample getting an increase in Threat generation.
Battle Trample is a paragon path feat, so changing it would not allow it for all sentinels to have it. But i agree with you. So many effects on ONE passive is silly.
PROBLEM: GWFs Cant Land any attacks in PVP because they have no prones or adequate stuns to do so. Any competent player (DC/CW/TR/HR) can easily shift dodge faster than your animation on IBS. Not even a takedown stun or frontline stun keeps them in place long enough for IBS to take effect.
FEEDBACK: significantly increase stun duration or bring back the Prone!
First things first, here are the incoming changes.
Guardian Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).
Great Weapon Fighter: Takedown: Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).
Second, I want to talk about Prone and why we are shifting some of the prones away from PVP, but not all of them. Prone has a special interaction with Deflect in that while someone has you Prone you cannot deflect any incoming attacks. While we do like this interaction in PVE, changing the behavior from PVP to PVE felt awkward and confusing for users so we decided to convert these to stuns instead and still allow the control to exist without the ability to shut off enemy player defensive stats. Secondly because of animation limitations prones cannot be any shorter than .66 seconds. Given this we wanted to allow CC resist to work correctly in more cases, and therefore we wanted prones to be generally saved either for more powerful spells (like several dailies) or for powers that require substantially more skill to land (like Shard of the Eternal Avalanche). These changes should improve the feel of CC Resistance and make it behave more uniformly in all situations.
Thank you all for your continued feedback.
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
I'll need to test the 2 Second Prone and see if it's enough to reliably land GWF encounters such as Indomitable Battle Strike, but as always appreciate the feed back and the hands on approach! :cool:
General
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.Sprint can now interrupt all powers and should feel much more responsive. (finally GWF sprint useful rather than use for running away)
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.(still have problem why is roar nerfed to not make players root, the only problem with roar was being able to pass through CC immunity)
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 10~20%(up from 5~10%) damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~30% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from 1.2).(u r making players choose between destroyer and swordmaster, then why r u decreasing damage , which will make GWF not able to damage not more than 1k or so after going through there DR and if deflected it goes to like 500 or so , while HR deals like 7k+ dmg with there encounter while GWF damages are being nerfed)
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.This power now deals ~35% less damage.Base stun duration increased to 2 seconds on players (up from .75).(same as above)
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. This power now deals ~35% less damage.(same as above)
Swordmaster: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
SwordmasterFlourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).[ now player will have hard choice to make whether to use swordmaster or IV]
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
Intimidation: [/B]Not So Fast and Daring Shout now deal 10/20/30/40/50% of your Power as damage (up from 2/4/6/8/10%) and while targets are Intimidated you deal 10/20/30/40/50% more threat to them (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Grudge Style: Sure Strike and Reaping Strike both generate 10/20/30/40/50% more threat (up from 5/10/15/20/25%).
Master At Arms: Having Weapon Master slotted now also increases threat generation by 10/20/30/40/50%.
COLOR
RED: still have problems
BLUE: not much care (passable)
GREEN: happy for the changes
yellow: problems.
the whole problem with u guys is u think GWF do more damages but u still forget the damage buff is coming from destroyer purpose and base damage for all PVP base toons are really low , in pvp a well made pvp toon when go against a well made pvp toon of any class it does no more damage than 2k-5k based on destroyer purpose stack and critical strike. after the changes gwf will choose sentinel , and there damage will obviously decrease which will make them nothing more than stand ins at the cap till other class comes and help them.
the 2 sec prone u giving is nothing to us , the prone u provide does not stack for gwf like CW has , the duration provide by prones is basic 2 sec which after passing through tenacity will give duration of 1.36sec (counting that other player is PVP toon which has 900 tenacity (20% CC resitant)) and additional CC resistance will be added from artifacts and the ability points , which will further decrease there duration .:(
I would like to question the wisdom behind the proposed changes to the class. I am a low level GWF trying to play through normal content with just a companion, as the game prescibed. Looking over the changes,the described changes will severly cripple, if not break the class during pre-endgame progression.
What you have done is gutted the core characteristics of the base class, shifting the balance onto paragon feats, endgame gear, and advanced module boons to plug the holes. This may be all well and fine at the end of the road, when you're crunching the numbers of the upper limits of what a GWF can acomplish, but what about everyone who still has to play the class from level 10-50? With no real "dodge" mechanic, the core class is reliant on the damage mitigation of Unstoppable. This becomes even more vital with the intended nerfs to the damage of early encounter powers.
I will no longer be able to use Unstoppable to "face-tank" incoming damage, nor will I be able to quickly dispose of an enemy damaging me. Please do test your ideas on some mid level content like the Sanatorium quest at Helm's Hold at level 34, with the proposed changes in effect.
If the main motivation is the problem of builds that couple of the damage boost from the Destroyer's capstone feat and Unstoppable's damage mitigation, I have a suggestion for you. Instead of forcing everyone to take the Sentinel's capstone to achieve the class's initial survivability, why not just put an addition into the Destroyer's capstone that decreases it?
It can be something as straight forward as "decrease effectivness of Unstoppable's mitigation by 250%", or something more creative like "each stack of Destroyer's Purpose also decreases the damage mitigation of Unstoppable by 1.5%". This way you achieve the same outcome at maximum potential, but leave all the pre-endgame GWFs alone.
Do you plan to eliminate the cooldown on potions, so that I can spam them continually? Or is there a "ranged" paragon path that lets us throw our swords like boomerangs and stay out of melee range? That would be cool too.
I assume you have thought of this, but it wasn't mentioned so I'm mentioning it --
Is the Sentinel capstone going to be adjusted with this to 2.5X unstoppable, or is it staying at 5x for a total 50~100% reduction? I'd assume it is being adjusted to 2.5X.
- B
Still no one mentioning,Isn't it Come And Get it and Daring Shout?Or it's Not So Fast as intended.