- increase stamina regeneration. GWFs are a non-stealth melee class with no way to negate damage. Sprint was a gap closer and Unstoppable was the burst tank ability. Now sprint is both for defense and gap closing. With current stamina, you can close the gap but then the ranged enemies still have their damage-negating evade moves and you're out of breath.
- on IV, make the decreased cooldown feat work on Threat Rush too (increased number of charges to 5) to improve mobility.
- Make Flourish animation faster and allow cancelling the encounter through sprint or it will be impossible to land.
is interesting this fact: Most GWF-players say the class needs, at least, 1 prone to have a chance to land IBS, yet DEVs say nothing about this.
Most GWF-players say Unstop should be 15-30% DR and have a better "determination gain" way yet DEVs say nothing about this...
I do not really know why they asked us for feedback when they are doing nothing with them...
BTW, making Warlock sprint instead of dodging is a poor excuse to us, GFW-players.
if you insists in not letting GWF class have, at least, 1 encounter prone, Flourish must be faster, undodgeable AND CC inmune
flourish should be dodgeable, all flourish needs is 2x faster animation and CC immunity on cast
- Correction: Relentless Battle Fury feat should add reduced cooldown on Punishing Charge for increased mobility on destroyers, and increase the damage like for takedown and roar.
In IV path as an addition this feat could add 1 more Threat rush charge.
These changes would increase mobility on Destroyers to make them more aggressive and allow them to fight in PvP. Also, could at least give a tiny reason to go IV with the Threat Rush increased charges. Plus, would be reserved to destroyers, so no worry about sentinels ending up with too much tankyness and mobility all-in-one.
this is ibs + bf (full stacks / unstoppable) of my gwf 16k/perfect vorpal.
this is the shard of my thau/ MOF ... blue items. (live)
53k x 52k (ibs loses damage on hit multiple targets ... shard receives)
then summarizing. in this moment a gwf has the same damage from a cw badly equipped. There is a chasm between the two classes in pve. If you think, "okay, the cw lost a bit of damage so you can take all the gwf defense " you are wrong.
Waiting at least the reversal of the unstoppable nerf AND a damage buff.
ps: before giving these nerfs / buffs to cw, check these problems first. or we will have the same "smart guy" bringing class A or B down to the detriment of the community. for many cw this nerf is too much (not for the great torquemada, of course). same of gwf. iam not a pvp guy. iam a poor pve swordmaster.
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zardoz007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited July 2014
Its appears that the 10-20% Unstoppable is still too much I tried a bit of this on a mule 10k GS GWF to see what it was doing to non-high GS GWF's and the results are unbelievable. I can take a 10k GF through Biggrins Tomb, using potions like mad but he can do it I can't do it with this 10k Destroyer GWF.
So Without a Capstone a GWF must be impossible to level. I'm thinking the problem is GWF Capstones IE the destoyer one and soon to be the Sentinel do too much. Dont get me wrong they are absolutely needed. So is it a better idea to buff the base stats of a GWF and reduce the Capstones but basically keep things Similar to the mod 3 Destroyer GWF for balance.
The more you buff the base stats of the GWF the easier it will be to make the Instigator path an option. And the less players will complain about low geared GWF's being unaffective.
P.S I am still for the 15-30% Unstoppable Base. And Devs still dont seem to be listening to players on this at all. Even with the 15-30% Unstoppable I think the GWF will need a damage boost to make up for the loss of DR for leveling. But the Destroyer Damage should not go up the capstone should instead go down to compensate.
so with the ridiculous nerf to unstoppable how about giving us a dodge that works instead of this sprint garbage that still causes you to get hit by the red attacks even if you run 10 yards out of the red. look I will be willing to admit that GWFs in PVP are OP but to nerf our only semblance of a dodge into the ground will kill us in PvE considering most bosses use a full circle AOE smackdown instead of a cone attack, yea have fun trying to sprint out of that.... sprint has always been broken as a dodge so I was like no biggie I will stack more def and save my unstoppable for large attacks for mitigation.
here is what I recommend you already changed what takedown and frontline surge do in PvP how about do the same with unstoppable ... if the problem is too much damage resistance for unstoppable in PvP then fix it for PvP dont. nerf it for PvE where it is absolutely necessary to live past the first 10 seconds of a boss fight when you cant even sprint out of the red and even if you do... it still hits you so whats the point of even having sprint?
dont take the one class that I like to play in PvE and break it trying to balance PvP which is basically a minigame to do when you dont have enough people to PvE or get bored of the lack of new dungeons, PvE is the "game" not PvP.
why arent you nerfing other classes tab powers like I dont know PERMASTEALTH ROGUES?...
If all these changes go live I better get a free respec not like the last time you idiots nerfed my damage into the ground....
so with the ridiculous nerf to unstoppable how about giving us a dodge that works instead of this sprint garbage that still causes you to get hit by the red attacks even if you run 10 yards out of the red. look I will be willing to admit that GWFs in PVP are OP but to nerf our only semblance of a dodge into the ground will kill us in PvE considering most bosses use a full circle AOE smackdown instead of a cone attack, yea have fun trying to sprint out of that.... sprint has always been broken as a dodge so I was like no biggie I will stack more def and save my unstoppable for large attacks for mitigation.
here is what I recommend you already changed what takedown and frontline surge do in PvP how about do the same with unstoppable ... if the problem is too much damage resistance for unstoppable in PvP then fix it for PvP dont. nerf it for PvE where it is absolutely necessary to live past the first 10 seconds of a boss fight when you cant even sprint out of the red and even if you do... it still hits you so whats the point of even having sprint?
dont take the one class that I like to play in PvE and break it trying to balance PvP which is basically a minigame to do when you dont have enough people to PvE or get bored of the lack of new dungeons, PvE is the "game" not PvP.
why arent you nerfing other classes tab powers like I dont know PERMASTEALTH ROGUES?...
If all these changes go live I better get a free respec not like the last time you idiots nerfed my damage into the ground....
Oh the funny thing is: They tried to reduce permastealth. What happened? Normal rogues have literally lost their tab ability(stealth was fast reduced like having it only 1-2s). Then all Q.Q and T.T was heared by the devs and they reversed it back. Now we have this unbalanced perma ones.
Oh the funny thing is: They tried to reduce permastealth. What happened? Normal rogues have literally lost their tab ability(stealth was fast reduced like having it only 1-2s). Then all Q.Q and T.T was heared by the devs and they reversed it back. Now we have this unbalanced perma ones.
It's pathetic that the dev's haven't heard any of our complaints about this huge unfair nerf. Wouldn't mind it as much if they nerfed hr's deflection and it wasn't get a damage boost... But oh well, complaining to dead ears...
Still very unhappy with the 10-20% Unstoppbale range and I'm beginning to see why. This "new" unstoppbale just cannot comapre to other classes tab powers. Lets Review.
GF- Mark. Grants instant taunt Increases GF Threat by 100% and damage by 20% to one target other allies gain +8% damage. 100% uptime usable at will. Other GF powers allow for temporary marks to be spread around on other targets.
Warlock- Curse +20% damage to one target can be split between multiple targets. Up time 100% of the time us at will. Other powers can land curses and powers used on cursed targets gain additional effects.
CW- Spell Mastery - Gain one additional encounter that is more powerful than your other three
DC - Divine Power - With a full bar increase the power of all 3 of your encounters by a significant amount
HR - Gain 3 additional encounters
TR- Unabled to be targeted and at with at wills freely. Increase the strength of one encounter and then end the effect. Other powers can increase stealth gain and damage dealt in stealth for nearly 100% uptime IE perma stealth builds
GWF- Gain 10-20% Damage resistance and CC immunity for a short period of time. Additionally increase attack speed of at wills but lower damage of at wills to compensate. Refueled by losing HP. Uptime about 50% of the time. Other powers can increase Determination gain for greater uptime.
Now after looking at this I notice that GWF is the only tab power that is not offensive in nature. GF and Warlock have a static 20% damage boost that they can use all the time. GWF gets a less stable % boost to defenses and is only usable half the time. Unstoppable is less defensive than TR stealth and has less damage boost without the Destroyer Capstone.
This is why players are asking for 15-30% Resistance to unstoppable. But those numbers into the equation and GWF unstoppable is looking a little more on par with what the other classes are getting. Maybe it would be better to just dispense with unstoppbale variable defense rating. Dont do 10-20%. just make it a static 20% all the time and an bigger unstoppable bar would only make the power last longer. I would be happy with this, then you could make sentinel capstone a solid 40% damage resistance.
Take away the variable effect will make unstoppable damage resistance easier to understand and easier to balance.
Or just LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYER BASE FOR ONCE and go the 15-30% damage resistance. This will please all players. As all GWF players will be happy to see a sign that you listened to us and all other players see that the GWF lost a full 20% damage resistance along with the other nerfs so they know the OP GWF is gone.
I'm really beginning to think you initially wanted a 10-20% unstoppable and gave us 5-10% so we would complain and then you change it to what you wanted in the first place, trying to fool us, pretending like you would ever listen to your players. But no. The only way to listen to your players is to go 15-30% Period.
If you want more powerful unstoppable go Sent. The devs gave back some DR to unstoppable already, going 15-30 lowers the gap between damage destroy and tank sent which is exactly what they are trying not to do. With the changes to sprint, there are a lot of opportunity for avoiding damage and cc but you will have to lose the mindset of stand in red circle/hit unstoppable. Nobody is going to play GF if they keep adding tankiness to destroyer spec.
Oh the funny thing is: They tried to reduce permastealth. What happened? Normal rogues have literally lost their tab ability(stealth was fast reduced like having it only 1-2s). Then all Q.Q and T.T was heared by the devs and they reversed it back. Now we have this unbalanced perma ones.
Is that true? Are Devs planning to do those change?
I am wondering why not add one more effect into tenancy like the perception in champions online, which is increase the distance to see/detect invisible/stealth objects base on how many tenancy you got.:cool:
If you want more powerful unstoppable go Sent. The devs gave back some DR to unstoppable already, going 15-30 lowers the gap between damage destroy and tank sent which is exactly what they are trying not to do. With the changes to sprint, there are a lot of opportunity for avoiding damage and cc but you will have to lose the mindset of stand in red circle/hit unstoppable. Nobody is going to play GF if they keep adding tankiness to destroyer spec.
you are missing the main problem in PvE is that is other classes have to dodge the red 90% of the time because they can attack from everywhere. quick dodge out of the red and pew pew pew. where melee have to dodge out then run back in and then attack, thats why GFs have block so they can take a hit and not have to move out of the red TRs have impossible to catch so the dont have to roll out of the red all the time of the time plus they have ranged attacks like path of the blade and sly flourish plus they can quickly get back into position with deft strike
now take a pure dps swordmaster destro they may get to use 1-2 at wills and maybe a WMS before they have to sprint out of the red then sprint (if they still have any) or run back in before they can attack again, meaning a huge dps loss making having a dps spec pointless because you will not be able to keep up with a less geared CW or HR that also have buffs and CC
I run an IV destro build plus my stats are optimized and I am in full tier 2 with 3 purple artifacts I have been playing for a while I have beaten VT numerous times and CN more times than I can count and I have to be on my A game to beat medium geared CWs or HRs in DPS and even with the damage I do. I dont do near enough damage to generate enough threat to "tank" which is what tanking is. not just not being squishy, you have to be able to hold aggro or guess what? you arent a tank! GFs generate more threat and sentinels have higher AC and can generate more threat that is why they are tanks.
any optimized dps GWF knows that you walk a line between being able to dps with the best of them and ending up with your face in the dirt after the first 10 seconds of a fight. did we build determination a bit too fast? yes I think so but as the devs said they fixed that. thats why nobody is complaining about that but to throw an extra DR nerf on top of that and you break the class for DPS
If they want a tanking class its simple ... make the tanking speccs generate more threat give them the ability to hold aggro
being able to survive in an aoe attack so you can still damage the boss or adds doesnt make you a tank. if that was the case TRs are tanks ... some HRs are tanks and clerics? oh they are tanks too everybody but CWs are tanks! wheeeee
for the TL/DR if they want to fix the tanking classes fix threat gen dont nerf all the other speccs damage resistance all that does is make new 60 DPS GWfs have to buy zen to trade for AD so they can get their tier 2, at least rank 7s and rank up a few artifacts (if they have them available sorry new players your first 60 is gonna die...) so they can survive long enough to do what their spec was designed for
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
you are missing the main problem in PvE is that is other classes have to dodge the red 90% of the time because they can attack from everywhere. quick dodge out of the red and pew pew pew. where melee have to dodge out then run back in and then attack, thats why GFs have block so they can take a hit and not have to move out of the red TRs have impossible to catch so the dont have to roll out of the red all the time of the time plus they have ranged attacks like path of the blade and sly flourish plus they can quickly get back into position with deft strike
now take a pure dps swordmaster destro they may get to use 1-2 at wills and maybe a WMS before they have to sprint out of the red then sprint (if they still have any) or run back in before they can attack again, meaning a huge dps loss making having a dps spec pointless because you will not be able to keep up with a less geared CW or HR that also have buffs and CC
I run an IV destro build plus my stats are optimized and I am in full tier 2 with 3 purple artifacts I have been playing for a while I have beaten VT numerous times and CN more times than I can count and I have to be on my A game to beat medium geared CWs or HRs in DPS and even with the damage I do. I dont do near enough damage to generate enough threat to "tank" which is what tanking is. not just not being squishy, you have to be able to hold aggro or guess what? you arent a tank! GFs generate more threat and sentinels have higher AC and can generate more threat that is why they are tanks.
any optimized dps GWF knows that you walk a line between being able to dps with the best of them and ending up with your face in the dirt after the first 10 seconds of a fight. did we build determination a bit too fast? yes I think so but as the devs said they fixed that. thats why nobody is complaining about that but to throw an extra DR nerf on top of that and you break the class for DPS
If they want a tanking class its simple ... make the tanking speccs generate more threat give them the ability to hold aggro
being able to survive in an aoe attack so you can still damage the boss or adds doesnt make you a tank. if that was the case TRs are tanks ... some HRs are tanks and clerics? oh they are tanks too everybody but CWs are tanks! wheeeee
for the TL/DR if they want to fix the tanking classes fix threat gen dont nerf all the other speccs damage resistance all that does is make new 60 DPS GWfs have to buy zen to trade for AD so they can get their tier 2, at least rank 7s and rank up a few artifacts (if they have them available sorry new players your first 60 is gonna die...) so they can survive long enough to do what their spec was designed for
All of this here is pretty much the echo of what most people in here that has some sense in what all these changes mean is saying.
Did not get a chance to do a thorough evaluation of the changes on Preview yet. Was hoping to do a few dungeon runs but was difficult to find groups at the time I was logged in (about 8:30 GMT) and I was told that most people are awaiting for further changes to be implemented on preview prior to getting around to testing. And I don't run ACT.
So i did a couple of runs of the Hammerstone dwarf raiders HE in Dwarven Valley. My build is a Swordmaster Destroyer (approx. 14.7k GS) with 6k Power, 3.8k Crit, 1.7k Recovery, 22% Ar.P, 38% Damage resistance and 10% Lifesteal (all approximate values) and a Vorpal/Soulforged/Avatar of War (rank 7 radiants)/Dread legion weapon setup. I can usually run this HE easily in 1.5- 2 minutes on Live (only two waves of mobs).
One try with current build (specced for damage so all 30 points on Destroyer tree and all dps Heroic feats) and I took a lot of damage, ended up soul-forging once and just barely survived completing it around 2.5-3 minutes. Switched over to defensive heroic feats (for defense/armor class/constitution) and added 5 points on Unstoppable Recovery. This allowed a marked increase in survivability (although I was still continuously sprinting to avoid damage) and I was again able to complete this HE in about 3 mins.
Skills used for all runs - Roar (no idea how much impact this has between Live and Preview on PvE- I use it for determination building+dps), IBS and Mighty Leap as encounters, Sure strike and WMS as at wills and Spinning strike as daily (mostly for testing..I normally prefer Avalanche).
So yes, it is possible to adapt at 14k+ GS, switching your build for survivability. Someone suggested using Daring Shout, which again is a great suggestion for survivability due to the Damage resistance buff; however, since it is not a damage dealing skill and without supporting feats, I prefer not to use this, it may also unnecessarily drawm mobs off an actual tank if you have one in party (needs testing with current threat changes). However, with that said, I do feel it will be quite challenging for newly leveling GWFs as well as lower GS Destroyer builds.
The other gripe I have with this Unstoppable change is that, while it may seem as solely a defensive nerf, it actually translates to a dps nerf as well, since you are constantly sprinting to avoid damage. So while a Sentinel will deal very weak damage, a Destroyer will also be comparatively much weaker on Paingiver charts than what they are on Live (Needs testing. i am looking for a rainbow group to run parallel tests with a stable group on Live and Preview). And I would not dare ask for a damage buff to compensate further for the indirect damage nerf (because of all the whine it will invite from PvPers). I do not PvP much anymore after all the incessant whining since Mod 2 and the constant bugs/nerf cycle (probably I should ignore forums and get back to it because I actually used to enjoy it).
I understand that the above tests were not the most methodical and will make another attempt to do it better (over the next weekend). I also know that the Hammerstone dwarves HE is not the most difficult, but last time I tried soloing a totem on Live, i failed, so I havent tried again (and I am hearing the Totem mob levels are different possibly on Live and Preview-needs confirmation). Also a diifference between 1.5 mins and 2-3 mins may not seem like much but it may scale up drastically in epic dungeons and HE.
I am indeed hoping that the developers take into account the feedback and suggestions on this thread. Primarily to cut Unstoppable damage resistance to 12.5-25 (and add a 2x multiplier for Sentinel feat) from current 5-10% (on Preview). Also to not take away Prone from Takedown and FLS (rather increase their cooldown to prevent spamming) in PvP. Thanks.
Decided to quote myself to keep both posts for comparison.
Did another pass on Hammerstone dwarf HE in Dwarven Valley on Saturday using my regular all destroyer build (DemonSyde-currently at 15k GS) same as what it is on live. Now I was able to complete it (without dying/soul-forging) in approx. 2.5 mins. So yes, survivability is slightly better than the 5-10% DR Unstoppable version. However, as several have already mentioned, the GWF's role is in the front lines. It is not a Rogue to be dashing and dodging the mobs or AoE. The loss in dps due to all the movement seems significant. Again, I know I am not giving you hard data, since I havent been able to get a dungeon group together while on Preview.
I request the Devs to make a few more tweaks and as suggested 1) Raise the damage resistance to 12.5-25%. My understanding of this range is also weak. I understand the resistance is spread over the range based on Determination gained. If that is the case, why not have it as a setup where the resistance is flat 25% when the bar is over the half-filled mark and 12.5% when it is below the half-filled mark.
2) Weapon master strike (or Wicked strike..if it gets fixed for the inability to cancel it and sprint) have a buff to base damage to compensate for the DPS loss from all the dodging. Preferrably 50% increase in damage or based on destroyer Stacks.
Also, while on PvP on Live, I tested following Flourish with IBS to get a feel of how effective a stun would be. While I understand that the animation is long and the stun of short duration, stunned players quite effectively managed to get away from the IBS strike. Will have to test on Preview, but I do feel the lack of even a single prone will be detrimental for the survival of GWFs in PvP. So to reiterate, allow Takedown to prone but significantly increase it's cooldown. When feated (Relentless), it can be allowed to bring the CD to where it currently is, unfeated.
you are missing the main problem in PvE is that is other classes have to dodge the red 90% of the time because they can attack from everywhere. quick dodge out of the red and pew pew pew. where melee have to dodge out then run back in and then attack, thats why GFs have block so they can take a hit and not have to move out of the red TRs have impossible to catch so the dont have to roll out of the red all the time of the time plus they have ranged attacks like path of the blade and sly flourish plus they can quickly get back into position with deft strike
now take a pure dps swordmaster destro they may get to use 1-2 at wills and maybe a WMS before they have to sprint out of the red then sprint (if they still have any) or run back in before they can attack again, meaning a huge dps loss making having a dps spec pointless because you will not be able to keep up with a less geared CW or HR that also have buffs and CC
I run an IV destro build plus my stats are optimized and I am in full tier 2 with 3 purple artifacts I have been playing for a while I have beaten VT numerous times and CN more times than I can count and I have to be on my A game to beat medium geared CWs or HRs in DPS and even with the damage I do. I dont do near enough damage to generate enough threat to "tank" which is what tanking is. not just not being squishy, you have to be able to hold aggro or guess what? you arent a tank! GFs generate more threat and sentinels have higher AC and can generate more threat that is why they are tanks.
any optimized dps GWF knows that you walk a line between being able to dps with the best of them and ending up with your face in the dirt after the first 10 seconds of a fight. did we build determination a bit too fast? yes I think so but as the devs said they fixed that. thats why nobody is complaining about that but to throw an extra DR nerf on top of that and you break the class for DPS
If they want a tanking class its simple ... make the tanking speccs generate more threat give them the ability to hold aggro
being able to survive in an aoe attack so you can still damage the boss or adds doesnt make you a tank. if that was the case TRs are tanks ... some HRs are tanks and clerics? oh they are tanks too everybody but CWs are tanks! wheeeee
for the TL/DR if they want to fix the tanking classes fix threat gen dont nerf all the other speccs damage resistance all that does is make new 60 DPS GWfs have to buy zen to trade for AD so they can get their tier 2, at least rank 7s and rank up a few artifacts (if they have them available sorry new players your first 60 is gonna die...) so they can survive long enough to do what their spec was designed for
The other melee classes have to dodge the red as well. What ranged attack is the TR or GF going to do that does any real dps? TR has to use itc or dodge to stay in fight. One takes up a dps encounter and the other interrupts dps rotation. Don't even start on a GF dps. They can't even sprint out of the red. They changed the sprint so that you use it to avoid red circles. They are making it so that you can no longer stand in red circles and crush damage. This is just for PVE. For PVP the balance is even wider, even with the nerf GWF will be close to max DR while in unstoppable or sprint.
As for range classes thats a whole different conversation. You make some good points ranged vs melee as far as dps balance but I don't see this as being fixed any time soon.
The other melee classes have to dodge the red as well. What ranged attack is the TR or GF going to do that does any real dps? TR has to use itc or dodge to stay in fight. One takes up a dps encounter and the other interrupts dps rotation. Don't even start on a GF dps. They can't even sprint out of the red. They changed the sprint so that you use it to avoid red circles. They are making it so that you can no longer stand in red circles and crush damage. This is just for PVE. For PVP the balance is even wider, even with the nerf GWF will be close to max DR while in unstoppable or sprint.
As for range classes thats a whole different conversation. You make some good points ranged vs melee as far as dps balance but I don't see this as being fixed any time soon.
GFs I think everyone can agree, need help. They are getting much due attention with this patch, but the fact remains that the two tank classes are meant to spend a large amount of time IN the red circles. Yes, they may be called on to dodge sometimes, but for the most part their shift abilities and attack skills are not tuned for constant dodging.
They did not change Sprint so that GWFs can dodge red circles. They added effects to Sprint to compensate for the fact that you won't be able to, even if you try. A damage reduction bonus on Sprint means nothing if you can actually get out of the red circle, because you then take NO damage, meaning there's nothing to reduce. They added damage reduction because they know it's a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dodge ability and you will likely end up taking damage anyways. If the class was truly meant to "dodge" red zones, Sprint would be replaced with a roll/teleport ability like other "evasion" classes have.
Rogues, being the other melee specialized class, are given a ranged paragon path to enable them to engage at range, as well stock ranged abilities to ensure their DPS doesn't just stop altogether when they have just rolled out of the melee zone. The GF and GWF have no ranged abilities that ensure they can continue to engage an enemy while staying out of melee range. That is why they are so reliant on CC effects in PvP, and why those CC abilities are being nerfed, for the sake of PvP complaints.
This is also the motivation behind the Unstoppable nerf, as no one actually complains about GWFs not having to 'dodge' red zones in PvE. The core of the complaint is always more that "so and so" class scored higher on the DPS meter than some other class that felt they should do more damage. Complaints about a class's "over-tankiness" only really come up in PvP, because someone feels that someone else should be easier for them to kill.
If Sprint was so viable a "dodge" ability, there would not be as much feedback in Warlock threads to change theirs to something else.
ok, so sprint will last 40% longer.... there is already a feat that gives 15% reduction in stamina consumption... so 55% longer sprint... that gives cc immunity, 30% DR... when we run as fast as a 110% mount... they will be the fastest class to get to a node after a fight in pvp...
you still havent nerfed the senti feat that gives x5 DR given by unstoppable... so senti's will be insta capped DR every time we hit our tab...
Revert the new changes please. or atleast take away CC immunity, and nerf the x5 DR given by unstoppable
Question: Does the DR and CC immunity from the new Sprint apply as long as you hold down the Shift key and have stamina, or do you have to be actively moving?
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
ok, so sprint will last 40% longer.... there is already a feat that gives 15% reduction in stamina consumption... so 55% longer sprint... that gives cc immunity, 30% DR... when we run as fast as a 110% mount... they will be the fastest class to get to a node after a fight in pvp...
you still havent nerfed the senti feat that gives x5 DR given by unstoppable... so senti's will be insta capped DR every time we hit our tab...
Revert the new changes please. or atleast take away CC immunity, and nerf the x5 DR given by unstoppable
That maybe the case with damage resistance but im not sure its working as intended as of the last patch unless Im missing how DR works and if there is a Cap on it
MY GWF is 49.7% DR
Deflect 24.7 which can goto 34-40% when in Combat
Sentinel Capstone gives 40-80% more DR so this would mean im at 100% or over so when Using Unstoppable shouldn't I be Immune to Damage for this 8 seconds? as I said I'm sure I'm missing something like MAX DR you can EVER have is 75% hard capped or something?
So did a little testing for 1 hour Yesterday on Prometheus
Went to Sharadar which is good for testing AOE/Multiple adds groups of 4/5 I get between
- Damage without using unstoppable 671-1241
- Damage with Unstoppable 400-922
Now my maths isnt Brilliant but that doesnt seem to be to any where near the Damage I should have mitigated while under the effects of Unstoppable
That maybe the case with damage resistance but im not sure its working as intended as of the last patch unless Im missing how DR works and if there is a Cap on it
MY GWF is 49.7% DR
Deflect 24.7 which can goto 34-40% when in Combat
Sentinel Capstone gives 40-80% more DR so this would mean im at 100% or over so when Using Unstoppable shouldn't I be Immune to Damage for this 8 seconds? as I said I'm sure I'm missing something like MAX DR you can EVER have is 75% hard capped or something?
So did a little testing for 1 hour Yesterday on Prometheus
Went to Sharadar which is good for testing AOE/Multiple adds groups of 4/5 I get between
- Damage without using unstoppable 671-1241
- Damage with Unstoppable 400-922
Now my maths isnt Brilliant but that doesnt seem to be to any where near the Damage I should have mitigated while under the effects of Unstoppable
Can some one explain ?
Your total damage resistance cannot exceed 80%. That is the maximum clamp on DR.
That maybe the case with damage resistance but im not sure its working as intended as of the last patch unless Im missing how DR works and if there is a Cap on it
MY GWF is 49.7% DR
Deflect 24.7 which can goto 34-40% when in Combat
Sentinel Capstone gives 40-80% more DR so this would mean im at 100% or over so when Using Unstoppable shouldn't I be Immune to Damage for this 8 seconds? as I said I'm sure I'm missing something like MAX DR you can EVER have is 75% hard capped or something?
So did a little testing for 1 hour Yesterday on Prometheus
Went to Sharadar which is good for testing AOE/Multiple adds groups of 4/5 I get between
- Damage without using unstoppable 671-1241
- Damage with Unstoppable 400-922
Now my maths isnt Brilliant but that doesnt seem to be to any where near the Damage I should have mitigated while under the effects of Unstoppable
Can some one explain ?
Your damage resistance caps at 80% (so you will always take at least 20% of damage from the attacker). However, you can stack DR to any amount that you want for additional DR used in calculations that decrease your defenses. For example, if you have 120% DR you opponent will need to have over 40% worth of debuffs/Armor penetration in order to do more than 20% damage to you. If you have 85% DR, you opponent would need only 5% worth of debuffs/Armor penetration in order to do more than 20% damage to you.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ok, so sprint will last 40% longer.... there is already a feat that gives 15% reduction in stamina consumption... so 55% longer sprint... that gives cc immunity, 30% DR... when we run as fast as a 110% mount... they will be the fastest class to get to a node after a fight in pvp...
you still havent nerfed the senti feat that gives x5 DR given by unstoppable... so senti's will be insta capped DR every time we hit our tab...
Revert the new changes please. or atleast take away CC immunity, and nerf the x5 DR given by unstoppable
Sentinal GWF's have always been insta capped when they used unstoppable..
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I feel that the additional changes to Sprint and Unstoppable are too powerful, especially for PvP, but also diminish the Guardian Fighter's role in PvE.
1. As pointed out earlier in the thread, non-glass cannon Destroyers can easily have 45%+ Damage Resistance. Glass Cannon ones probably around 32%.
2. Sprint has been changed to grant CC Immunity alongside 30% DR. Now it also consumes 40% less Stamina.
What this basically allows is a GWF that sprint until getting sufficient Determination to go Unstoppable. Go Unstoppable without moving from the spot, whatever is fired your way (80% DR cap, especially in group play or with potions). Once Unstoppable wears off, continue sprinting and taking damage to go Unstoppable again. Doing this will allow most any GWF to A. Stay alive and B. Deal a lot of damage with very little effort.
In PvP in particular, this will likely be a new meta, allowing non-Sentinels to do very well, but Sentinels would be even harder to kill than they are now (which is already bordering on ridiculous).
In PvE, those of us who are high-end geared can still just go Unstoppable, stay in 1 spot and swing without ever moving (except to chase a mob), due to Lifesteal even when Unstoppable has gone off.
The thing is that a Guardian Fighter may with the future changes to Guard be more sustainable for taking damage and getting aggro, but if the GWF can take damage almost just as well and get aggro simply by having high damage, there still is little reason to take a Guardian Fighter along unless your group is fairly undergeared.
So my feeling is that Unstoppable at 10-20% is optimal, with 15% DR bonus from Sprint. CC Immunity is fine. Sentinel can boost the DR to the old 25-50%.
No Paragon specialization should be good in both PvE and PvP in my opinion, and the continuous increases of Damage Resistance back to nearly Live levels in addition to the buffs to Sprint are enabling just that. Because let's face it: Other than GWFs under 60 or those newly 60, there actually isn't a noticeable difference between 30% DR or 50% DR in Unstoppable when you are capped to 80% either way. Sprint buffs are just icing on the cake.
Comments
- increase stamina regeneration. GWFs are a non-stealth melee class with no way to negate damage. Sprint was a gap closer and Unstoppable was the burst tank ability. Now sprint is both for defense and gap closing. With current stamina, you can close the gap but then the ranged enemies still have their damage-negating evade moves and you're out of breath.
- on IV, make the decreased cooldown feat work on Threat Rush too (increased number of charges to 5) to improve mobility.
- Make Flourish animation faster and allow cancelling the encounter through sprint or it will be impossible to land.
flourish should be dodgeable, all flourish needs is 2x faster animation and CC immunity on cast
- Correction: Relentless Battle Fury feat should add reduced cooldown on Punishing Charge for increased mobility on destroyers, and increase the damage like for takedown and roar.
In IV path as an addition this feat could add 1 more Threat rush charge.
These changes would increase mobility on Destroyers to make them more aggressive and allow them to fight in PvP. Also, could at least give a tiny reason to go IV with the Threat Rush increased charges. Plus, would be reserved to destroyers, so no worry about sentinels ending up with too much tankyness and mobility all-in-one.
this is ibs + bf (full stacks / unstoppable) of my gwf 16k/perfect vorpal.
this is the shard of my thau/ MOF ... blue items. (live)
53k x 52k (ibs loses damage on hit multiple targets ... shard receives)
then summarizing. in this moment a gwf has the same damage from a cw badly equipped. There is a chasm between the two classes in pve. If you think, "okay, the cw lost a bit of damage so you can take all the gwf defense " you are wrong.
Waiting at least the reversal of the unstoppable nerf AND a damage buff.
ps: before giving these nerfs / buffs to cw, check these problems first. or we will have the same "smart guy" bringing class A or B down to the detriment of the community. for many cw this nerf is too much (not for the great torquemada, of course). same of gwf. iam not a pvp guy. iam a poor pve swordmaster.
So Without a Capstone a GWF must be impossible to level. I'm thinking the problem is GWF Capstones IE the destoyer one and soon to be the Sentinel do too much. Dont get me wrong they are absolutely needed. So is it a better idea to buff the base stats of a GWF and reduce the Capstones but basically keep things Similar to the mod 3 Destroyer GWF for balance.
The more you buff the base stats of the GWF the easier it will be to make the Instigator path an option. And the less players will complain about low geared GWF's being unaffective.
P.S I am still for the 15-30% Unstoppable Base. And Devs still dont seem to be listening to players on this at all. Even with the 15-30% Unstoppable I think the GWF will need a damage boost to make up for the loss of DR for leveling. But the Destroyer Damage should not go up the capstone should instead go down to compensate.
here is what I recommend you already changed what takedown and frontline surge do in PvP how about do the same with unstoppable ... if the problem is too much damage resistance for unstoppable in PvP then fix it for PvP dont. nerf it for PvE where it is absolutely necessary to live past the first 10 seconds of a boss fight when you cant even sprint out of the red and even if you do... it still hits you so whats the point of even having sprint?
dont take the one class that I like to play in PvE and break it trying to balance PvP which is basically a minigame to do when you dont have enough people to PvE or get bored of the lack of new dungeons, PvE is the "game" not PvP.
why arent you nerfing other classes tab powers like I dont know PERMASTEALTH ROGUES?...
If all these changes go live I better get a free respec not like the last time you idiots nerfed my damage into the ground....
Oh the funny thing is: They tried to reduce permastealth. What happened? Normal rogues have literally lost their tab ability(stealth was fast reduced like having it only 1-2s). Then all Q.Q and T.T was heared by the devs and they reversed it back. Now we have this unbalanced perma ones.
It's pathetic that the dev's haven't heard any of our complaints about this huge unfair nerf. Wouldn't mind it as much if they nerfed hr's deflection and it wasn't get a damage boost... But oh well, complaining to dead ears...
GF- Mark. Grants instant taunt Increases GF Threat by 100% and damage by 20% to one target other allies gain +8% damage. 100% uptime usable at will. Other GF powers allow for temporary marks to be spread around on other targets.
Warlock- Curse +20% damage to one target can be split between multiple targets. Up time 100% of the time us at will. Other powers can land curses and powers used on cursed targets gain additional effects.
CW- Spell Mastery - Gain one additional encounter that is more powerful than your other three
DC - Divine Power - With a full bar increase the power of all 3 of your encounters by a significant amount
HR - Gain 3 additional encounters
TR- Unabled to be targeted and at with at wills freely. Increase the strength of one encounter and then end the effect. Other powers can increase stealth gain and damage dealt in stealth for nearly 100% uptime IE perma stealth builds
GWF- Gain 10-20% Damage resistance and CC immunity for a short period of time. Additionally increase attack speed of at wills but lower damage of at wills to compensate. Refueled by losing HP. Uptime about 50% of the time. Other powers can increase Determination gain for greater uptime.
Now after looking at this I notice that GWF is the only tab power that is not offensive in nature. GF and Warlock have a static 20% damage boost that they can use all the time. GWF gets a less stable % boost to defenses and is only usable half the time. Unstoppable is less defensive than TR stealth and has less damage boost without the Destroyer Capstone.
This is why players are asking for 15-30% Resistance to unstoppable. But those numbers into the equation and GWF unstoppable is looking a little more on par with what the other classes are getting. Maybe it would be better to just dispense with unstoppbale variable defense rating. Dont do 10-20%. just make it a static 20% all the time and an bigger unstoppable bar would only make the power last longer. I would be happy with this, then you could make sentinel capstone a solid 40% damage resistance.
Take away the variable effect will make unstoppable damage resistance easier to understand and easier to balance.
Or just LISTEN TO YOUR PLAYER BASE FOR ONCE and go the 15-30% damage resistance. This will please all players. As all GWF players will be happy to see a sign that you listened to us and all other players see that the GWF lost a full 20% damage resistance along with the other nerfs so they know the OP GWF is gone.
I'm really beginning to think you initially wanted a 10-20% unstoppable and gave us 5-10% so we would complain and then you change it to what you wanted in the first place, trying to fool us, pretending like you would ever listen to your players. But no. The only way to listen to your players is to go 15-30% Period.
Is that true? Are Devs planning to do those change?
I am wondering why not add one more effect into tenancy like the perception in champions online, which is increase the distance to see/detect invisible/stealth objects base on how many tenancy you got.:cool:
now take a pure dps swordmaster destro they may get to use 1-2 at wills and maybe a WMS before they have to sprint out of the red then sprint (if they still have any) or run back in before they can attack again, meaning a huge dps loss making having a dps spec pointless because you will not be able to keep up with a less geared CW or HR that also have buffs and CC
I run an IV destro build plus my stats are optimized and I am in full tier 2 with 3 purple artifacts I have been playing for a while I have beaten VT numerous times and CN more times than I can count and I have to be on my A game to beat medium geared CWs or HRs in DPS and even with the damage I do. I dont do near enough damage to generate enough threat to "tank" which is what tanking is. not just not being squishy, you have to be able to hold aggro or guess what? you arent a tank! GFs generate more threat and sentinels have higher AC and can generate more threat that is why they are tanks.
any optimized dps GWF knows that you walk a line between being able to dps with the best of them and ending up with your face in the dirt after the first 10 seconds of a fight. did we build determination a bit too fast? yes I think so but as the devs said they fixed that. thats why nobody is complaining about that but to throw an extra DR nerf on top of that and you break the class for DPS
If they want a tanking class its simple ... make the tanking speccs generate more threat give them the ability to hold aggro
being able to survive in an aoe attack so you can still damage the boss or adds doesnt make you a tank. if that was the case TRs are tanks ... some HRs are tanks and clerics? oh they are tanks too everybody but CWs are tanks! wheeeee
for the TL/DR if they want to fix the tanking classes fix threat gen dont nerf all the other speccs damage resistance all that does is make new 60 DPS GWfs have to buy zen to trade for AD so they can get their tier 2, at least rank 7s and rank up a few artifacts (if they have them available sorry new players your first 60 is gonna die...) so they can survive long enough to do what their spec was designed for
All of this here is pretty much the echo of what most people in here that has some sense in what all these changes mean is saying.
Decided to quote myself to keep both posts for comparison.
Did another pass on Hammerstone dwarf HE in Dwarven Valley on Saturday using my regular all destroyer build (DemonSyde-currently at 15k GS) same as what it is on live. Now I was able to complete it (without dying/soul-forging) in approx. 2.5 mins. So yes, survivability is slightly better than the 5-10% DR Unstoppable version. However, as several have already mentioned, the GWF's role is in the front lines. It is not a Rogue to be dashing and dodging the mobs or AoE. The loss in dps due to all the movement seems significant. Again, I know I am not giving you hard data, since I havent been able to get a dungeon group together while on Preview.
I request the Devs to make a few more tweaks and as suggested
1) Raise the damage resistance to 12.5-25%. My understanding of this range is also weak. I understand the resistance is spread over the range based on Determination gained. If that is the case, why not have it as a setup where the resistance is flat 25% when the bar is over the half-filled mark and 12.5% when it is below the half-filled mark.
2) Weapon master strike (or Wicked strike..if it gets fixed for the inability to cancel it and sprint) have a buff to base damage to compensate for the DPS loss from all the dodging. Preferrably 50% increase in damage or based on destroyer Stacks.
Also, while on PvP on Live, I tested following Flourish with IBS to get a feel of how effective a stun would be. While I understand that the animation is long and the stun of short duration, stunned players quite effectively managed to get away from the IBS strike. Will have to test on Preview, but I do feel the lack of even a single prone will be detrimental for the survival of GWFs in PvP. So to reiterate, allow Takedown to prone but significantly increase it's cooldown. When feated (Relentless), it can be allowed to bring the CD to where it currently is, unfeated.
The other melee classes have to dodge the red as well. What ranged attack is the TR or GF going to do that does any real dps? TR has to use itc or dodge to stay in fight. One takes up a dps encounter and the other interrupts dps rotation. Don't even start on a GF dps. They can't even sprint out of the red. They changed the sprint so that you use it to avoid red circles. They are making it so that you can no longer stand in red circles and crush damage. This is just for PVE. For PVP the balance is even wider, even with the nerf GWF will be close to max DR while in unstoppable or sprint.
As for range classes thats a whole different conversation. You make some good points ranged vs melee as far as dps balance but I don't see this as being fixed any time soon.
GFs I think everyone can agree, need help. They are getting much due attention with this patch, but the fact remains that the two tank classes are meant to spend a large amount of time IN the red circles. Yes, they may be called on to dodge sometimes, but for the most part their shift abilities and attack skills are not tuned for constant dodging.
They did not change Sprint so that GWFs can dodge red circles. They added effects to Sprint to compensate for the fact that you won't be able to, even if you try. A damage reduction bonus on Sprint means nothing if you can actually get out of the red circle, because you then take NO damage, meaning there's nothing to reduce. They added damage reduction because they know it's a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dodge ability and you will likely end up taking damage anyways. If the class was truly meant to "dodge" red zones, Sprint would be replaced with a roll/teleport ability like other "evasion" classes have.
Rogues, being the other melee specialized class, are given a ranged paragon path to enable them to engage at range, as well stock ranged abilities to ensure their DPS doesn't just stop altogether when they have just rolled out of the melee zone. The GF and GWF have no ranged abilities that ensure they can continue to engage an enemy while staying out of melee range. That is why they are so reliant on CC effects in PvP, and why those CC abilities are being nerfed, for the sake of PvP complaints.
This is also the motivation behind the Unstoppable nerf, as no one actually complains about GWFs not having to 'dodge' red zones in PvE. The core of the complaint is always more that "so and so" class scored higher on the DPS meter than some other class that felt they should do more damage. Complaints about a class's "over-tankiness" only really come up in PvP, because someone feels that someone else should be easier for them to kill.
If Sprint was so viable a "dodge" ability, there would not be as much feedback in Warlock threads to change theirs to something else.
Unstoppable: Now grants 15~30% DR when activated (up from 10~20%).
Sprint: Stamina cost of Sprint reduced by roughly 40%.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thnx ! This is a great change .
Now what we need is 1 prone and GWF will be fine and i am 100 % sure not OP in pvp.
you still havent nerfed the senti feat that gives x5 DR given by unstoppable... so senti's will be insta capped DR every time we hit our tab...
Revert the new changes please. or atleast take away CC immunity, and nerf the x5 DR given by unstoppable
That maybe the case with damage resistance but im not sure its working as intended as of the last patch unless Im missing how DR works and if there is a Cap on it
MY GWF is 49.7% DR
Deflect 24.7 which can goto 34-40% when in Combat
Sentinel Capstone gives 40-80% more DR so this would mean im at 100% or over so when Using Unstoppable shouldn't I be Immune to Damage for this 8 seconds? as I said I'm sure I'm missing something like MAX DR you can EVER have is 75% hard capped or something?
So did a little testing for 1 hour Yesterday on Prometheus
Went to Sharadar which is good for testing AOE/Multiple adds groups of 4/5 I get between
- Damage without using unstoppable 671-1241
- Damage with Unstoppable 400-922
Now my maths isnt Brilliant but that doesnt seem to be to any where near the Damage I should have mitigated while under the effects of Unstoppable
Can some one explain ?
Your total damage resistance cannot exceed 80%. That is the maximum clamp on DR.
Your damage resistance caps at 80% (so you will always take at least 20% of damage from the attacker). However, you can stack DR to any amount that you want for additional DR used in calculations that decrease your defenses. For example, if you have 120% DR you opponent will need to have over 40% worth of debuffs/Armor penetration in order to do more than 20% damage to you. If you have 85% DR, you opponent would need only 5% worth of debuffs/Armor penetration in order to do more than 20% damage to you.
Sentinal GWF's have always been insta capped when they used unstoppable..
1. As pointed out earlier in the thread, non-glass cannon Destroyers can easily have 45%+ Damage Resistance. Glass Cannon ones probably around 32%.
2. Sprint has been changed to grant CC Immunity alongside 30% DR. Now it also consumes 40% less Stamina.
What this basically allows is a GWF that sprint until getting sufficient Determination to go Unstoppable. Go Unstoppable without moving from the spot, whatever is fired your way (80% DR cap, especially in group play or with potions). Once Unstoppable wears off, continue sprinting and taking damage to go Unstoppable again. Doing this will allow most any GWF to A. Stay alive and B. Deal a lot of damage with very little effort.
In PvP in particular, this will likely be a new meta, allowing non-Sentinels to do very well, but Sentinels would be even harder to kill than they are now (which is already bordering on ridiculous).
In PvE, those of us who are high-end geared can still just go Unstoppable, stay in 1 spot and swing without ever moving (except to chase a mob), due to Lifesteal even when Unstoppable has gone off.
The thing is that a Guardian Fighter may with the future changes to Guard be more sustainable for taking damage and getting aggro, but if the GWF can take damage almost just as well and get aggro simply by having high damage, there still is little reason to take a Guardian Fighter along unless your group is fairly undergeared.
So my feeling is that Unstoppable at 10-20% is optimal, with 15% DR bonus from Sprint. CC Immunity is fine. Sentinel can boost the DR to the old 25-50%.
No Paragon specialization should be good in both PvE and PvP in my opinion, and the continuous increases of Damage Resistance back to nearly Live levels in addition to the buffs to Sprint are enabling just that. Because let's face it: Other than GWFs under 60 or those newly 60, there actually isn't a noticeable difference between 30% DR or 50% DR in Unstoppable when you are capped to 80% either way. Sprint buffs are just icing on the cake.
Great news but i do rather incrase stamina regeneration than stamina cost of sprint