Hey guys, we have taken a look at Iron Vanguard and Swordmaster and we wanted to make some changes to bring them more in line with their intended use. First, we are tuning back Iron Vanguard damage on Great Weapon Fighters so that it will line up with Guardian Fighter damage from the same powers. This allows the powers to be more focused on their utility and intent than on their damage, which didn't properly account for the difference in weapon damage when they were ported over. Second, we are improving Weapon Master's Strike and Flourish on both Guardian and Great Weapon Fighters to make them more attractive as damage options. Below are the changes for Great Weapon Fighters (to see the Guardian ones, check out their thread).
Great Weapon Fighter: Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
We are continuing to look at the various changes and so far we are fairly happy with the choice to diversify the damage resistance into a tank bonus, but we want to get continued feedback on that from dungeon runs and PVP so we can better tune where it belongs.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Looks like Destroyer is going to be Swordmaster path, and the SentinelIron Vanguard path damage got reduced again...
Huzzah Iron Vanguard will easily be the less used path... *shrugs*
If used at all honestly, but hakuna matata...
Still, again, after multiple runs the 5-10% DR for paths aside from Sentinel is really overkill... Buff it a bit, if you would be so kind!
Oh well, adapt or die I suppose. I choose adaptation. :cool:
I originally did not want to reply to this thread, but when Crush posted another series of nerfs, I couldn't hold myself.
I understand GWF has been op for a long time now, and needs some balancing. With the mod 3 changes, you were close. Really. What needed to be done: fixed Roar, slightly reduced Unstoppable DR (say instead of 25-50% 20-40%) and somehow nerfed Threatening Rush(the problem here is that TRush fails often due to rubberbanding, thats why I think the proposed changes will COMPLETELY ruin GWF mobility). To sum up - you guys always make no balance changes for months and then come up with something groundbreaking and huge. That is wrong. Nerf it slightly now, and if it remains op, continue nerfing. What can possibly happen now, is that GWF will be UNPLAYABLE for months, until you make another huge balance update.
Also, what would I consider, is asking the, lets say, elite players. Those who are in good guilds, well geared and have been playing for a long time. If you base your changes on whining and crying of pugs on forums, it might not bring the best balance to the game. When a CW with fresh lvl 60 enters pvp and gets crushed by fully geared 18k GWF in one rotation, he is going to think GWF is broken. At that point of time, he cannot yet fully realize how much stronger are minmaxed characters meant for pvp only, so he will cry about that. And there will always be more of these players than the BIS players, so when asked for opinions, those of the 1-5% of BIS players wont even be noticed.
To sum up: GWF needs nerfing. For sure. Not, however, what you have shown us.
PS. Thanks ayroux for defending the class, and offering alternative changes to GWF. I sincerely hope your involvement and time spent here wont be in vain.
GWF are front line fighters that generate a heap of AoE aggro, unstoppable is how the whole class functions - not just Sentinel Spec.
This one really needs to be re-thought, it will likely send most players down the Sentinel Path or more likely send GWF back to the bottom of the barrel class it was at game launch.
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
MORE CC immunity?! I dont know why you guys like to rock the boat so much, it was pretty unanimous just to bring unstoppable back to about 15-30% and everything would be fine.
Basically you just stole ~30% DR from unstoppable and gave it to Sprint.
Tell me this? Does the DR cap increase? Because now Sentinels who are around 58-60% base DR, get 25-50% from unstoppable and now 30% from Sprint?
But wait! Its all capped at 80%, so basically a Sentinel who goes unstoppable, then sprints, then unstoppable will forever be over the cap. That sounds fun.
But you didnt address the fact that GWFs cant CATCH anything once they actually CATCH UP to someone....
Basically just playing "tag your it" and the GWF will ALWAYS be it...
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
That might make up for the unstoppable decrease for the other trees (if you manage it wisely), but for some powers we literally can't sprint if things get bad (Wicked Strike, for starters) due to the massive rubberbanding it causes. Could you possibly look into fixing the rubberbanding that happens at times? The other issue is sentinel becomes a demon again for pvp.
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
This isn't useful, and isn't the answer. If anything, this will cause more pvp QQ than there is now. Also, I would like to question how this really goes with the spirit of the class. A class that is based around being a front line melee fighter that can take a lot of damage and do a lot of damage... gets a buff to running away? I'd say you need to go back to the drawing board on this one, or we will have GWF back to where it was at launch, the worst class.
Also, as mentioned by others, can we please get a fix on many of our skills rooting and rubber-banding us (namely wicked strike), otherwise this is pretty much completely useless in pve, unless we are simply expected to use single target only?
A third point: with all these changes, Iron Vanguard GWF is losing a lot of its AoE potential. With Wicked Strike having severe rubberbanding issues and Reaping Strike being pretty much useless, IV no longer has a viable AoE at will, which is a large part of their damage and ability to get and hold aggro. If we are supposed to be sprinting out of danger like this and other changes suggest (which in my honest opinion is not really befitting of the class), we need to actually be able to use our attacks without being stuck in danger. On top of that, one of the primary AoE encounters for IV, Frontline Surge, takes a large damage nerf. So basically IV is losing quite a lot of damage here. The other AoEs either offer much less damage (not so fast) or are also being nerfed (roar).
Fourthly, despite pretty much every post in the feedback being "The unstoppable change is too much" or something to that tune, not only do we see no change, we also don't even get any response on it? If nothing else, it would be nice to hear a response on what seems to be the biggest issue here.
Finally, I would like to thank you for all your hard work, and I understand that it is not an easy task balancing classes. I appreciate you and what you do, and I think most of us here agree on that, if nothing else.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Sorry, but who came up with this stupid idea? You will be able to use very little stamina to dodge spells with sprint. It will make sprint too strong and its absolute nonsense to dodge while sprinting. Rather make unstoppable 20-30% resistence or make it 25-50 and reduce a bit dmg from destroyer stacks.
This isn't useful, and isn't the answer. If anything, this will cause more pvp QQ than there is now. Also, I would like to question how this really goes with the spirit of the class. A class that is based around being a front line melee fighter that can take a lot of damage and do a lot of damage... gets a buff to running away? I'd say you need to go back to the drawing board on this one, or we will have GWF back to where it was at launch, the worst class.
I dont mind the direction, but id MUCH rather see something like this if they want to go more this direction.
Unstoppable: 10-20%
Sprint: Grants 30% DEFLECT and CC RESISTANCE (call it 100%?) this way it still maintains some of the goal/idea - maybe hes harder to target because of running fast, but unstoppable NEEDS a buff still...
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
This makes things interesting... I like it, particularly moving through Red Circles in PvE... I'll take a look and test this out. Thanks for the update!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited June 2014
I can actually see what they were trying to do with sprint for PvE-ahhhh-the-whole-floor-is-red, where this is a change that might actually make a difference to the loss of survivability from nerfing Unstoppable. Not running away, but running through the danger to press your attack from the other side. This always was smart PvE GWF play for avoiding certain kinds of red anyway.
That said, I don't see how it fixes anything for PvP.
Haven't tested it, but I honestly really like the Sprint update, particularly for Sentinel as that's where I feel I can mess around with the Sprinting feats the best. I'll test, but more CC immunity seems A-OK to me...
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zapatomon1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited June 2014
A suggestion:
AsPUNISHING CHARGE shares some feats with Sprint, It should have the same effect as Sprint. It would create new ways of approaching to danger. That skill needs some love too, barely anyone uses it.
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zapatomon1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited June 2014
Feedback:
After Spending several hours at IceWind Pass, I would say:
- GWF lack of damage and Resistance to survive using Life Steal and Potions at Mid HE. This is not a problem at all on Live.
- Swordmaster spec lacks of control abilities to be able to handle more than 3 Mid HE monsters. This is not a problem at all on Live.
- I also play CW, and can say they still do a lot more dmg than GWF with Master of Flame path. I dont feel like my Perfect vorpal is useful.
- If dealing dmg and survival is a problem for 18k GS GWF, I cant imagine how difficult it would be for a 11k-14k GWF.
Suggestion:
Return the role of high damage to the GWF so at least it could be enjoyable to play with it. Also, change name of Unstoppable cuz I dont feel like that anymore
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Feedback: Sprint's Extra Effects.
- I like the idea of adding some utility to Sprint, specially the immunity. But as some people have mentioned, it may be too powerful of an effect for PVP. How about reducing the types of CCs a GWF is immune to from Sprinting to Slow, Immobilize/Roots, and Knockback, basically just the Control Effects that directly affect movement. They can still be Dazed, Interrupted and Proned even when Sprinting. And to justify such a powerful utility effect, how about introducing a mechanic to Sprint that will make the GWFs expend extra Stamina whenever they ignore CC while Sprinting?
Im sorry dude but this isnt really good feedback, you blanket statement changes as to a "nerf" and then say its good. Also half your post talked about CWs.
Here is why your post makes false assumptions.
The current dungeons have been out for a LONG time and the minimum gear score requires what 8500? So it shouldnt be a surprise when a 17k GS GWF + 17 GS CW can breeze through it EZmode... What NEEDS to happen is to release actual NEW content, not nerf existing classes because they have farmed more gear and made PVE easier...
We dont need to make old stuff challenging, what they need to do is either give us new dungeons that have min GS requires of say 15k, OR heck, make HARDER versions of the old dungeons, with new better rewards. Alot of options....
Honestly what would be really cool IMO is to release 10 man versions of the existing content and call them "Epic Dungeons" up from Heroic... THAT can be the "new" PVE content, they can recycle everything just make it alot harder and for 10 man groups... Release T3 gear and BAM. Now you have better stuff.
The heroics are a great way to get new gear, but when seasoned players have all the gear, you dont just nerf everyone to make old content harder - there is still no incentive to play, what you do is make NEW content or recycle old content but give better rewards and new gear to give incentive to play.
T3 wouldnt even have to be THAT much better than T2 or T2.5. Heck, people will pay millions of AD to upgrade a rank 9 to 10 that only gives 40 more stats... What do you think they would do for armor that gave the +10 more stats in every area? That isnt really even a power creep, just incentive to play.
But for the sake of the GWFs, please post feedback directly relating to the specific class, not about power creeps or CWs or blanked statement saying it needed a "nerf".
Hey guys, we looked into some survivability options for Great Weapon Fighters and we felt Sprint was pretty lacking at the moment in comparison to other shift mechanics as far as allowing you to respond to danger so we are also making the following change.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
This is an incredibly crazy and unnecessary change. It is possible to use Sprint in small "doses", consuming a bit of Stamina. In PvP, it will be possible for a GWF to avoid almost entirely the CC other class throw at it. Dodge/Teleport should be reserved to SQUISHY classes. GWF have the gearing/build choices that allow them to soak up damage.
Such a change will generate an enormous amount of forum tears against the GWF, yet again.
Please, classes need to be balanced against each other. This can be done by FINE TUNING aspects of their already existing mechanics.
Thank you for the compensation to make up our lesser survivability after unstoppable nerf.But I would see wicked strike fixed more than anything
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
One thing I don't think is being properly looked at with the sprint thing is: in unstoppable, we can still be doing damage, or anything else. Sprint is just a simple re-positioning, and does not last long at all, even if only used in short bursts. So, this really amounts to another nerf to GWF dps.
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Great Weapon Fighter: Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks crush, these were a long time in waiting since the paragon paths were available, much appreciated
There is still the matter with the Daily Powers and Features however: Indomitable Strength (IV) and Crescendo (SM), which would need the same treatment. Crescendo deals tiny damage on a Guardian Fighter and Indomitable Stength too much for the Great Weapon Fighter. Same with Steel Blitz Feature.
I tested out short sprinting burst, and I managed to get 6 straight "bursts" in before my stamina meter ran out. There's a slight maybe .5 second delay between being able to do those bursts, about no different than with the dodges of other characters. So I'm not sold on it be that OP for pvp, at least maybe not any better than the HR's short dodges.
Just call me Rod. Member of Grievance! CW: Rodrant Turnbul TR: Rodran DC: Rodrat GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL Other GWF: Shieldrant HR: Bowdrant SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!) OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
roll back changes with unstoppable nerf as it is now gwf instant die in mobs swarms u nerfed enough gwf with prone nerfs and roar to useless lvls in pvp do not ruin it in pve with unstoppable nerf
if u wanted to nerf unstoppable in pvp u should have removed and changed all feats and skills who gave hp restore when use unstoppable this would hit pvp players harder then resist nerf
btw how do u think new plyers will be able to lvl up gwf in questes now ?
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
[*]Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
I appreciate the direction of this change. It was requested by most (including myself, and I am a SM Destroyer). However, the extent to which this change was taken in this direction may be overkill, as most GWFs on this thread (including ones that are testing it on preview). Would be great if the reduction in damage resist be brought to around the 15-30% mark.
[*]Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
[*]Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
[*]Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
I understand the damage nerf on Takedown (should be restricted to utility skill). But why are the prones (both TD/FS) being removed? The name itself suggests that it is a "Takedown". Kindly reconsider this. Ideal workaround to the issue of Takedown spam would be to increase the skill base cooldown to over 12 secs. Only when feated in Destroyer tree, should it be allowed to reduce CD to its current base CD. This will remarkably reduce chain prones in PvP.
[*]Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
Why is an at-will skill being restricted to an x number of charges (or am I missing something)? Would it not have been possible to reduce the distance of the rush for PvP (so as not to impact GFs adversely in PvE. I have a lv 16 GF that I am currently leveling up and the lack of a decent Shift mechanic to move faster is very noticeable).
Great Weapon Fighter: Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
We understand that IV GWF damage was somewhat out of line with that on GF. But please ensure that this does not leave IV Destroyers as a less viable build.
Great Weapon Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
We are continuing to look at the various changes and so far we are fairly happy with the choice to diversify the damage resistance into a tank bonus, but we want to get continued feedback on that from dungeon runs and PVP so we can better tune where it belongs.
Please note that a majority of people testing on Preview have indicated that the damage resistance changes are less than desirable.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
This Sprint change may be somewhat of a problem on the PvP side of things, as some have posted. My major issue is that the intention now indicated is to make the GWFs dodge a lot. Considering this is more or less purely a melee class (a couple of weak ranged skills), no amount of damage buffs to this class and specifically Destroyer build will help with dps if they have to move around too much. People that argue that this is a faceroll class may be right (at least for the past) but the point is, ranged classes can still continue dodging and dpsing (from range) at the same time. Not very likely as a GWF.
We understand that you (the Dev team) are in the unenviable position of trying to make all classes/players happy and are often criticized when changes are implemented that adversely impact the players' class. I am hoping that this post does not appear as another "dev bash". Apologies for the long post.
Tl;dr- Changes to damage resistance are in the right direction. But they need to be dialed down a bit and left at base 15-30%.Thanks for reading.
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iaccidentally47Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
So, after a few hours on test last night, I have a few things to share. I was not able to get ACT parses as I was only able to get on test on a laptop that was struggling to run the game. However, I did get a good bit of testing done. I tested at 3 different levels: 19k (basically my current live gear), 15k (middle of the road for endgame GWF), and 12k (in +5 Blues and rank 4's). I also tested 3 main specs, IV Destroyer (my current live build), IV Sentinel, and IV Instigator (I will test SM after the next patch). Below is a summary of my general experience.
19k: (32k HP, 8.1k power, 42% Damage resist)
IV Destroyer: Feels significantly less tanky, but still does good damage. Overall damage seemed lower, and takedown didn't even hit as hard as sure strike. I tried dread ring, had no trouble whatsoever, though I did notice that my determination gain was slower. So, I moved on to IWD. Was able to solo minor (2-3) person HE's (Totem of Auril, Barbarian/Hammerstone Invasion), and survive for a while in majors (corrupted bears, remo hunt, rescue prospectors), but would eventually die if I tried to take on more than a few mobs at a time, and would not have been able to solo it due to time. Epic HE (Raid the Raiders, Black Ice Beholder) resulted in almost instant death, which on live I can usually survive for quite a while. I also got to run ToS with this spec, did fine, popped SF once (however the group was very strong, 2 GWF 2 CW 1 GF, all over 16k with greater or better enchants). My damage was about 20% lower overall than it is on live, but still acceptable, I finished 2nd on paingiver behind the Oppressor spec CW. I did manage to take aggro from the GF at times, but he would get it back quickly. Overall, not much change at this gear level, though unstoppable feels anything but unstoppable.
IV Sent: more survivable, but not by much. 50-80% lower damage, so life steal was much less effective, and while I could take more hits, I was still forced to use potions and restoring strike to stay alive. I don't see this path as viable in pve. I did not get to test in a dungeon, but I did no better in IWD, and my greatsword might as well have been a foam bat. The small tankiness gain in pve does not make up for the huge damage loss. PvP untested, will try to get some in soon.
IV Instigator: This path is not viable at all. This tree really needs some love, perhaps it could focus on providing utility and team buffs, since we already have a damage path (Destroyer) and a tanky path (Sentinel). I did about 30-60% less damage than I did as destroyer and gained no survivability or anything else of value. Even at 19k this path does not do well.
15k: (28k HP, 6.2k power, 38% damage resist)
IV Destroyer: Decent damage, little to no survivabilty. Die in 2 to 5 hits with or without unstoppable. Temp HP and 5% heal from unstoppable recovery are gone in an instant after activating unstoppable. Still able to do decent damage, but constantly having to use potions to heal (even with 11% life steal and good regen). Unable to solo most minor HE's. Instantly die on major/epic.
IV Sent: awful damage, not much better survivability. If this is supposed to be the "Tank" path, it needs more ability to survive in pve, and deal with the additional aggro.
IV Instigator: Still completely unviable. Below average damage and no survivability.
12k: (5.6k power, 26k HP, 36% damage resist)
All: dead. I really feel bad for new 60's or less geared GWFs if this goes live. Pretty much every build I tried died fast to anything in IWD. Dread ring and sharandar were still ok, but they were easy back when we were 6k, so I don't really think that's a good testing ground.
So, overall, I can basically say the following: Unstoppable change is way too much, especially for the less geared. Sentinel is not much better off, since they don't do enough damage to survive off life steal, regen is too slow in pve, and they don't gain enough tankiness to compensate. It felt like playing a weak Conqueror GF on live. Instigator needs love, as it is nonviable at any gear level. I still need to test SM builds, but I am waiting for this week's patch before I do. I also need to test pvp, which I have a feeling will be awful, but I am also waiting for the patch on that since Threatening Rush is still working like it is on live currently. I plan to test further, but this is what I found so far.
Hope this helps,
-Misa
Miss Anthropy - 15.7k CW | Miss Andrist - 19k GWF | DC (14.5k) | TR (14.5k) | HR(14k) | GF(15.5k)
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
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sidewazeMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 31Arc User
edited June 2014
Have to say, with some basic PTS testing, very concerned for GWF balance in PvP now. Think this went too far the other way. I was never one to abuse Roar, specced out as soon as I saw the bug. Further, always believed that a trade-off of survival for damage is fair. I like adjustments to Unstoppable damage mitigation, but not the Unstoppable heal as well; I like the change to stun from prones, but am concerned the stun time will be too short.
Damage output in Sentinel seems laughable, and when matched with stuns on high-Tenacity players, we'll not be able to stop enemies in PvP from escaping us always. Now with a Threatening Rush cap, we can't catch up to them other than with Sprint, and Stam will be eaten up very quickly most likely here, even with full feats.
What's concerning is not the majority of tweaks, it's the 'categorical' nature of them - the integrated nature of them across three key PvP disciplines: mobility, burst damage, and survivability (as opposed to 2 out of 3 of these critical categories for successful PvP viability, let's say). Leaving Sent builds off the table for PvP. Likewise, Instigator continues to show little to any viability in PvP (doesn't support burst damage or survivability, feels more like a wannabe CC'er spec).
We will see tons of GWF Destroyers running around, getting kited, and utterly shredded as they are paper tigers. We'll be great in PvE. PvP, this class is currently far beyond balanced. Recommendation: Up burst damage for Sentinels, while removing their mobility and survivability, or make Destroyers a bit more survivable.
If we go to live with the changes I've seen on PTS, my guess is this class won't be played much in PvP anymore. And not just by the FOTM'ers but by people who truly bring creativity to the role on the battlefield.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
This change feels appropriate. Before, high DPS destroyers were as tanky as a properly geared GF despite having very good offensive feats, now they still get the full benefit of offensive part of Unstoppable, but also need to rely on correct positioning if they want to survive. I still feel like Destroyer's capstone should be slightly buffed on the offensive part to compensate.
Sentinels will still play the "tanky" part and feel no different than before.
Instigators will continue to not exist, as they don't have the survivability of the Sentinel nor the damage of the Destroyer :P
Most of their feats are a mish-mash of effects without any direction (they should be reworked for high mobility and get i.e. high damage resistance/control immunity when sprinting, along with some good damage buffs for a few seconds after sprinting)
Comments
Looks like Destroyer is going to be Swordmaster path, and the Sentinel Iron Vanguard path damage got reduced again...
Huzzah Iron Vanguard will easily be the less used path... *shrugs*
If used at all honestly, but hakuna matata...
Still, again, after multiple runs the 5-10% DR for paths aside from Sentinel is really overkill... Buff it a bit, if you would be so kind!
Oh well, adapt or die I suppose. I choose adaptation. :cool:
I understand GWF has been op for a long time now, and needs some balancing. With the mod 3 changes, you were close. Really. What needed to be done: fixed Roar, slightly reduced Unstoppable DR (say instead of 25-50% 20-40%) and somehow nerfed Threatening Rush(the problem here is that TRush fails often due to rubberbanding, thats why I think the proposed changes will COMPLETELY ruin GWF mobility). To sum up - you guys always make no balance changes for months and then come up with something groundbreaking and huge. That is wrong. Nerf it slightly now, and if it remains op, continue nerfing. What can possibly happen now, is that GWF will be UNPLAYABLE for months, until you make another huge balance update.
Also, what would I consider, is asking the, lets say, elite players. Those who are in good guilds, well geared and have been playing for a long time. If you base your changes on whining and crying of pugs on forums, it might not bring the best balance to the game. When a CW with fresh lvl 60 enters pvp and gets crushed by fully geared 18k GWF in one rotation, he is going to think GWF is broken. At that point of time, he cannot yet fully realize how much stronger are minmaxed characters meant for pvp only, so he will cry about that. And there will always be more of these players than the BIS players, so when asked for opinions, those of the 1-5% of BIS players wont even be noticed.
To sum up: GWF needs nerfing. For sure. Not, however, what you have shown us.
PS. Thanks ayroux for defending the class, and offering alternative changes to GWF. I sincerely hope your involvement and time spent here wont be in vain.
GWF are front line fighters that generate a heap of AoE aggro, unstoppable is how the whole class functions - not just Sentinel Spec.
This one really needs to be re-thought, it will likely send most players down the Sentinel Path or more likely send GWF back to the bottom of the barrel class it was at game launch.
Great Weapon Fighter: Sprint: Sprint now grants 30% more damage resistance while active and makes you Immune to CC while sprinting.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
MORE CC immunity?! I dont know why you guys like to rock the boat so much, it was pretty unanimous just to bring unstoppable back to about 15-30% and everything would be fine.
Basically you just stole ~30% DR from unstoppable and gave it to Sprint.
Tell me this? Does the DR cap increase? Because now Sentinels who are around 58-60% base DR, get 25-50% from unstoppable and now 30% from Sprint?
But wait! Its all capped at 80%, so basically a Sentinel who goes unstoppable, then sprints, then unstoppable will forever be over the cap. That sounds fun.
But you didnt address the fact that GWFs cant CATCH anything once they actually CATCH UP to someone....
Basically just playing "tag your it" and the GWF will ALWAYS be it...
That might make up for the unstoppable decrease for the other trees (if you manage it wisely), but for some powers we literally can't sprint if things get bad (Wicked Strike, for starters) due to the massive rubberbanding it causes. Could you possibly look into fixing the rubberbanding that happens at times? The other issue is sentinel becomes a demon again for pvp.
This isn't useful, and isn't the answer. If anything, this will cause more pvp QQ than there is now. Also, I would like to question how this really goes with the spirit of the class. A class that is based around being a front line melee fighter that can take a lot of damage and do a lot of damage... gets a buff to running away? I'd say you need to go back to the drawing board on this one, or we will have GWF back to where it was at launch, the worst class.
Also, as mentioned by others, can we please get a fix on many of our skills rooting and rubber-banding us (namely wicked strike), otherwise this is pretty much completely useless in pve, unless we are simply expected to use single target only?
A third point: with all these changes, Iron Vanguard GWF is losing a lot of its AoE potential. With Wicked Strike having severe rubberbanding issues and Reaping Strike being pretty much useless, IV no longer has a viable AoE at will, which is a large part of their damage and ability to get and hold aggro. If we are supposed to be sprinting out of danger like this and other changes suggest (which in my honest opinion is not really befitting of the class), we need to actually be able to use our attacks without being stuck in danger. On top of that, one of the primary AoE encounters for IV, Frontline Surge, takes a large damage nerf. So basically IV is losing quite a lot of damage here. The other AoEs either offer much less damage (not so fast) or are also being nerfed (roar).
Fourthly, despite pretty much every post in the feedback being "The unstoppable change is too much" or something to that tune, not only do we see no change, we also don't even get any response on it? If nothing else, it would be nice to hear a response on what seems to be the biggest issue here.
Finally, I would like to thank you for all your hard work, and I understand that it is not an easy task balancing classes. I appreciate you and what you do, and I think most of us here agree on that, if nothing else.
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Sorry, but who came up with this stupid idea? You will be able to use very little stamina to dodge spells with sprint. It will make sprint too strong and its absolute nonsense to dodge while sprinting. Rather make unstoppable 20-30% resistence or make it 25-50 and reduce a bit dmg from destroyer stacks.
I dont mind the direction, but id MUCH rather see something like this if they want to go more this direction.
Unstoppable: 10-20%
Sprint: Grants 30% DEFLECT and CC RESISTANCE (call it 100%?) this way it still maintains some of the goal/idea - maybe hes harder to target because of running fast, but unstoppable NEEDS a buff still...
That said, I don't see how it fixes anything for PvP.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
GG CWs, lol.
As PUNISHING CHARGE shares some feats with Sprint, It should have the same effect as Sprint. It would create new ways of approaching to danger. That skill needs some love too, barely anyone uses it.
After Spending several hours at IceWind Pass, I would say:
- GWF lack of damage and Resistance to survive using Life Steal and Potions at Mid HE. This is not a problem at all on Live.
- Swordmaster spec lacks of control abilities to be able to handle more than 3 Mid HE monsters. This is not a problem at all on Live.
- I also play CW, and can say they still do a lot more dmg than GWF with Master of Flame path. I dont feel like my Perfect vorpal is useful.
- If dealing dmg and survival is a problem for 18k GS GWF, I cant imagine how difficult it would be for a 11k-14k GWF.
Suggestion:
Return the role of high damage to the GWF so at least it could be enjoyable to play with it. Also, change name of Unstoppable cuz I dont feel like that anymore
Feedback: Sprint's Extra Effects.
- I like the idea of adding some utility to Sprint, specially the immunity. But as some people have mentioned, it may be too powerful of an effect for PVP. How about reducing the types of CCs a GWF is immune to from Sprinting to Slow, Immobilize/Roots, and Knockback, basically just the Control Effects that directly affect movement. They can still be Dazed, Interrupted and Proned even when Sprinting. And to justify such a powerful utility effect, how about introducing a mechanic to Sprint that will make the GWFs expend extra Stamina whenever they ignore CC while Sprinting?
This is Spot ON!!!!
This is an incredibly crazy and unnecessary change. It is possible to use Sprint in small "doses", consuming a bit of Stamina. In PvP, it will be possible for a GWF to avoid almost entirely the CC other class throw at it. Dodge/Teleport should be reserved to SQUISHY classes. GWF have the gearing/build choices that allow them to soak up damage.
Such a change will generate an enormous amount of forum tears against the GWF, yet again.
Please, classes need to be balanced against each other. This can be done by FINE TUNING aspects of their already existing mechanics.
No need to introduce new crazy OP stuff.
Please listen to your playerbase, thank you.
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Thanks crush, these were a long time in waiting since the paragon paths were available, much appreciated
There is still the matter with the Daily Powers and Features however: Indomitable Strength (IV) and Crescendo (SM), which would need the same treatment. Crescendo deals tiny damage on a Guardian Fighter and Indomitable Stength too much for the Great Weapon Fighter. Same with Steel Blitz Feature.
CW: Rodrant Turnbul
TR: Rodran
DC: Rodrat
GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL
Other GWF: Shieldrant
HR: Bowdrant
SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!)
OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
if u wanted to nerf unstoppable in pvp u should have removed and changed all feats and skills who gave hp restore when use unstoppable this would hit pvp players harder then resist nerf
btw how do u think new plyers will be able to lvl up gwf in questes now ?
I appreciate the direction of this change. It was requested by most (including myself, and I am a SM Destroyer). However, the extent to which this change was taken in this direction may be overkill, as most GWFs on this thread (including ones that are testing it on preview). Would be great if the reduction in damage resist be brought to around the 15-30% mark. I understand the damage nerf on Takedown (should be restricted to utility skill). But why are the prones (both TD/FS) being removed? The name itself suggests that it is a "Takedown". Kindly reconsider this. Ideal workaround to the issue of Takedown spam would be to increase the skill base cooldown to over 12 secs. Only when feated in Destroyer tree, should it be allowed to reduce CD to its current base CD. This will remarkably reduce chain prones in PvP. Why is an at-will skill being restricted to an x number of charges (or am I missing something)? Would it not have been possible to reduce the distance of the rush for PvP (so as not to impact GFs adversely in PvE. I have a lv 16 GF that I am currently leveling up and the lack of a decent Shift mechanic to move faster is very noticeable).
Perfect. Adjust accordingly if the base damage resist feedback is indeed taken into account for further changes.
We understand that IV GWF damage was somewhat out of line with that on GF. But please ensure that this does not leave IV Destroyers as a less viable build.
Very much appreciated. Thanks. Please note that a majority of people testing on Preview have indicated that the damage resistance changes are less than desirable.
This Sprint change may be somewhat of a problem on the PvP side of things, as some have posted. My major issue is that the intention now indicated is to make the GWFs dodge a lot. Considering this is more or less purely a melee class (a couple of weak ranged skills), no amount of damage buffs to this class and specifically Destroyer build will help with dps if they have to move around too much. People that argue that this is a faceroll class may be right (at least for the past) but the point is, ranged classes can still continue dodging and dpsing (from range) at the same time. Not very likely as a GWF.
We understand that you (the Dev team) are in the unenviable position of trying to make all classes/players happy and are often criticized when changes are implemented that adversely impact the players' class. I am hoping that this post does not appear as another "dev bash". Apologies for the long post.
Tl;dr- Changes to damage resistance are in the right direction. But they need to be dialed down a bit and left at base 15-30%.Thanks for reading.
19k: (32k HP, 8.1k power, 42% Damage resist)
IV Destroyer: Feels significantly less tanky, but still does good damage. Overall damage seemed lower, and takedown didn't even hit as hard as sure strike. I tried dread ring, had no trouble whatsoever, though I did notice that my determination gain was slower. So, I moved on to IWD. Was able to solo minor (2-3) person HE's (Totem of Auril, Barbarian/Hammerstone Invasion), and survive for a while in majors (corrupted bears, remo hunt, rescue prospectors), but would eventually die if I tried to take on more than a few mobs at a time, and would not have been able to solo it due to time. Epic HE (Raid the Raiders, Black Ice Beholder) resulted in almost instant death, which on live I can usually survive for quite a while. I also got to run ToS with this spec, did fine, popped SF once (however the group was very strong, 2 GWF 2 CW 1 GF, all over 16k with greater or better enchants). My damage was about 20% lower overall than it is on live, but still acceptable, I finished 2nd on paingiver behind the Oppressor spec CW. I did manage to take aggro from the GF at times, but he would get it back quickly. Overall, not much change at this gear level, though unstoppable feels anything but unstoppable.
IV Sent: more survivable, but not by much. 50-80% lower damage, so life steal was much less effective, and while I could take more hits, I was still forced to use potions and restoring strike to stay alive. I don't see this path as viable in pve. I did not get to test in a dungeon, but I did no better in IWD, and my greatsword might as well have been a foam bat. The small tankiness gain in pve does not make up for the huge damage loss. PvP untested, will try to get some in soon.
IV Instigator: This path is not viable at all. This tree really needs some love, perhaps it could focus on providing utility and team buffs, since we already have a damage path (Destroyer) and a tanky path (Sentinel). I did about 30-60% less damage than I did as destroyer and gained no survivability or anything else of value. Even at 19k this path does not do well.
15k: (28k HP, 6.2k power, 38% damage resist)
IV Destroyer: Decent damage, little to no survivabilty. Die in 2 to 5 hits with or without unstoppable. Temp HP and 5% heal from unstoppable recovery are gone in an instant after activating unstoppable. Still able to do decent damage, but constantly having to use potions to heal (even with 11% life steal and good regen). Unable to solo most minor HE's. Instantly die on major/epic.
IV Sent: awful damage, not much better survivability. If this is supposed to be the "Tank" path, it needs more ability to survive in pve, and deal with the additional aggro.
IV Instigator: Still completely unviable. Below average damage and no survivability.
12k: (5.6k power, 26k HP, 36% damage resist)
All: dead. I really feel bad for new 60's or less geared GWFs if this goes live. Pretty much every build I tried died fast to anything in IWD. Dread ring and sharandar were still ok, but they were easy back when we were 6k, so I don't really think that's a good testing ground.
So, overall, I can basically say the following: Unstoppable change is way too much, especially for the less geared. Sentinel is not much better off, since they don't do enough damage to survive off life steal, regen is too slow in pve, and they don't gain enough tankiness to compensate. It felt like playing a weak Conqueror GF on live. Instigator needs love, as it is nonviable at any gear level. I still need to test SM builds, but I am waiting for this week's patch before I do. I also need to test pvp, which I have a feeling will be awful, but I am also waiting for the patch on that since Threatening Rush is still working like it is on live currently. I plan to test further, but this is what I found so far.
Hope this helps,
-Misa
Lowbies: DC (level 31) | HR (level 16)
You can almost always find me in the legit channel. Happy Adventuring!
GWF guide: click me
Damage output in Sentinel seems laughable, and when matched with stuns on high-Tenacity players, we'll not be able to stop enemies in PvP from escaping us always. Now with a Threatening Rush cap, we can't catch up to them other than with Sprint, and Stam will be eaten up very quickly most likely here, even with full feats.
What's concerning is not the majority of tweaks, it's the 'categorical' nature of them - the integrated nature of them across three key PvP disciplines: mobility, burst damage, and survivability (as opposed to 2 out of 3 of these critical categories for successful PvP viability, let's say). Leaving Sent builds off the table for PvP. Likewise, Instigator continues to show little to any viability in PvP (doesn't support burst damage or survivability, feels more like a wannabe CC'er spec).
We will see tons of GWF Destroyers running around, getting kited, and utterly shredded as they are paper tigers. We'll be great in PvE. PvP, this class is currently far beyond balanced. Recommendation: Up burst damage for Sentinels, while removing their mobility and survivability, or make Destroyers a bit more survivable.
If we go to live with the changes I've seen on PTS, my guess is this class won't be played much in PvP anymore. And not just by the FOTM'ers but by people who truly bring creativity to the role on the battlefield.
This change feels appropriate. Before, high DPS destroyers were as tanky as a properly geared GF despite having very good offensive feats, now they still get the full benefit of offensive part of Unstoppable, but also need to rely on correct positioning if they want to survive. I still feel like Destroyer's capstone should be slightly buffed on the offensive part to compensate.
Sentinels will still play the "tanky" part and feel no different than before.
Instigators will continue to not exist, as they don't have the survivability of the Sentinel nor the damage of the Destroyer :P
Most of their feats are a mish-mash of effects without any direction (they should be reworked for high mobility and get i.e. high damage resistance/control immunity when sprinting, along with some good damage buffs for a few seconds after sprinting)