I wouldn't consider GFs better than GWF with capping. I would rather say they are equally good.
It is rather easy to dodge the GFs prones if you frequently move behind them, also GWF's CC resistance gives them an edge there.
i think they are equally good. GWF is easily countered by GF because they can throw the GWF all time without engaging in a death fight.
but then GF i think does more poorly against a rogue because of the mobility
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
i think they are equally good. GWF is easily countered by GF because they can throw the GWF all time without engaging in a death fight.
but then GF i think does more poorly against a rogue because of the mobility
Well a GWF doesnt have a "hard counter" except a good GF who can pick up points via prones but most likely wont kill eachother, a GF cant do well on average against a good TR... So thats a pretty hard counter to the class....
The other aspect is a GF has almost zero chance 2v1 where as its easier for a GWF to 2v1 because of unstoppable.
Not saying that in high lvl pvp a GWF can 2v1 easily, just that because of unstoppable and mobility, the GWF will last longer and fair better on average compared to a GF who literally has no chance against even two decent players.
Cribstaxx,
"Your crit chance does not equal 14.4 * 3, it is simply 14.4% every single attack," - precisely, so when you run the statistics (do you know how to do the math?) it comes out to the math previously quoted.
I can crit for 10-12k on encounters but it takes quite a bit of debuffs from a CW or a GWF to do that type of damage, people have the bad habit of remembering the big numbers and not paying attention to the average small numbers, go 1v1 a GWF and tell me how hard your bull rush hits or even crits for, I think youll be disappointed on AVERAGE numbers, not the best crit you can muster, but the average crit. Ive tried many sets of gear I have a power stacking PVE set and the numbers still arent that far off. The only times I used to be able to HIT for 6-7k on AVERAGE and crit for 12k-14k without vorpal was with the pre nerf stalwarts set where I have about 11k power + 6 GTE, that was a stupid OP build.
You also need to remember ARP doesnt go negatives so that has not alot of bearing on your 1v1 ability only debuffs do, and anyway you slice it, against a tanky DC/GF or GWF you wont be close to negatives without help. Also if you think a GF is stronger than GWF you havnt gone up against our GWF with Briartwine where even if your constantly prone him, his 7 GTE will still hit you... Its pretty hard to beat even with 1600 regen. Not saying it cant happen but at best youll tie and on average hell still kill you.
The full tanky build is effective at SOME things but not AS effective in group play. The role of a GF isnt to backcap, its to prone/dps targets at the same time. Typically the GF holds mid and sometimes rotates home point. I wont get into this lets just say that Steroidz and I share the same philosophy here... So if you wanna talk to someone more about it, hit him up if he still plays, I used to share the philosophy of tanky GF since that is how I played GWF, however the damage loss does add up and you want to be able to slice through CW/TRs easy at mid.
We might be there saturday, it gets tricky because of all the time zones and life commitments we have in our guild. But it would be nice to play everyone
We might be there saturday, it gets tricky because of all the time zones and life commitments we have in our guild. But it would be nice to play everyone
Cool! Hey I know we disagree on things but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy a PvP match now and again, even just for fun not some kind of ranking thing.
Playing against pugs, even when we only Q with 2-3 people is just no fun. Premade matches are always a blast, hope to see you there!
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I know right... i just stole a page out of your playbook. Oh and sorry for calling you 16 (even though you act it). I got you confused with Lord Steroidz.
I would like more of an update from devs as to what they are doing about Tennes and if they go through with this then those who have them slotted are able to remove them for free.
2mill to remove 7 is disgusting considering how long they have been in the game working as they are.
So they go through ITC and soulforged as well!!!! Was it not enough that they ignore resistance completely! that there is absolutely no protection???
So just stack tenes and u won't have to worry about anything anywhere,,,, not even Astral shield!! This is broken
And u say guide on dealing with Tenes, stack HP? Are u serious? You are restricting our gameplay to some one thing that is OP? Like we have no other kind of opponents, cause FYI, not everyone can afford Tenes if u haven't noticed it!
This is just broken and you need to fix it.
- make them unable to pass through dodges and soulforged
- necrotic damage can still pass through defenses
- limit stacking to 3 enchants (9% total hp is enough, a tank build can still have a 3k damage added every 20 seconds. Which, for me, is fair)
- give the chance to remove enchants for free 1 time from players gear to let people adjust their builds without spending a ton of ADs
- give the chance to salvage tenes for the price they were sold in AH before the nerf announcement
I think it would be fair, would still make tenes useful for tank builds but not at the point of making them full tanks with the ability to burst damage with 7k necrotic damage every 20 seconds (on a high HP sentinel: 3%x6-7= 18-21%; 34-37k hp--->6120-7770 damage).
If you look for a normal build that can dish out some damage AND tank, on a GWF, you've to sacrifice regeneration and defense. To get critical and power/ ArP stats to a good point to deal damage, you can't use titan/IS+ titan sword exc..., you've to balance.
This means that after such a nerf, a full tank build with stacked regen/def/deflection/ hp would deal a lot less damage, even with 3 tenes stacked, and would not be able to outdamage the other builds with his 7k burst damage from tenes. On the other side, a tank willing to go for critical to deal damage, would be forced to sacrifice a part of his tankyness.
As it's supposed to be.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Just convert them into weapon enchants that are exclusive with other OP weapon enchants... and allow merging into Perfect. Also remove them automatically from chars and put them into inventory. Obviously this would need some tweaking to make sure the Perfect version is powerful enough to compete with things such as a P. Vorpal.
Thing is, such a powerful enchant as GTEs should never, ever stack like they do now.
Alternatively, leave them alone as they are and create those PvP ladders already, so people that have GTEs play against other people with GTEs in the end, since I'm sure the guys that have them will band together to maximize their win chances.
Although this is not so good of a solution. Best is that the PvP gear should be relatively easy to get without the need to put any real money into the game, by doing PvP. As soon as real money contaminate the PvP scene and there are items out there with prohibitive prices for a large part of the population, it all goes downhill. Skills should be 75% of success, gear 25%.
The WoW PvP model is best in my opinion. In 1 month of focused PvP, you could get BiS gear and play on equal footing with the best out there, and only skills made the difference.
Now how many months of insane CN farming would I need to equip 7 GTEs and BiS gear in NWO? I doubt that in the present state of the game I can do it in 6 months.
So they go through ITC and soulforged as well!!!! Was it not enough that they ignore resistance completely! that there is absolutely no protection???
So just stack tenes and u won't have to worry about anything anywhere,,,, not even Astral shield!! This is broken
And u say guide on dealing with Tenes, stack HP? Are u serious? You are restricting our gameplay to some one thing that is OP? Like we have no other kind of opponents, cause FYI, not everyone can afford Tenes if u haven't noticed it!
This is just broken and you need to fix it.
and then we have to fix them because some people cant afford them? brilliant lol.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I havnt tested this yet, but I dont think ALL necrotic damage bypasses ALL defense.
I hit a DC in AS the other day with perf terror and its SUPPOSED to do about 80 damage depending on weapon hit,
It did like 40 damage.... I have alot of ARP so on most targets they dont have much left maybe 15% DR, however in AS my "necrotic" damage did a fraction of what it was supposed to.
Two theories:
1) Necrotic damage only gets mitigated by CERTAIN defensive abilities like AS.
2) Necrotic damage is mitigated by ALL defensive stats, most of the time GWF with max con has more than enough arp to cancel out TR/CW defenses but it would be niticable on a higher DR target like another GWF.
Can anyone confirm/deny via FOOTAGE that necro damage bypasses ALL DR
Terror/Lifedrinker are two off the top of my head outside of tenebs.
I havnt tested this yet, but I dont think ALL necrotic damage bypasses ALL defense.
I hit a DC in AS the other day with perf terror and its SUPPOSED to do about 80 damage depending on weapon hit,
It did like 40 damage.... I have alot of ARP so on most targets they dont have much left maybe 15% DR, however in AS my "necrotic" damage did a fraction of what it was supposed to.
Two theories:
1) Necrotic damage only gets mitigated by CERTAIN defensive abilities like AS.
2) Necrotic damage is mitigated by ALL defensive stats, most of the time GWF with max con has more than enough arp to cancel out TR/CW defenses but it would be niticable on a higher DR target like another GWF.
Can anyone confirm/deny via FOOTAGE that necro damage bypasses ALL DR
Terror/Lifedrinker are two off the top of my head outside of tenebs.
Lifedrinker is definitely affected by DR, I read my combat log last night, and lifedrinker did about 25(7x) dmg to me which is about right since it probably proc when i had a 50% determination bar unstoppable.
On the idea of barkshield can counter tene, that is simply not true. A simple dot on you will completely consume your barkshield charges, thus you can only HOPE to be able to absort tene when it proc. Statisticly speaking, the chance of barkshield charge matching a tene proc is really low as there are so many dots could be applied on you (thus so many dot procs vs 1 tene proc), except for maybe the first hit; that is also a big maybe since if that cw with no tene ranged you, all your barkshield charges are gone, then the non range attker such as a gf with bull charge / or gwf hits you just a split sec later, you will not have any barkshield charges left to 'counter' tene (i guess this can also be a strategy in some teams with tene for sure). In s longer fight, any DOT on you will almost certainly 'waste' your barkshield, thus allow tene to do its full dmg.
This is the experience i had last night against 2 gwf with tene, i have not seen my barkshield abosrded ANY of their tene proc. So I dont know why people say barkshield is the counter for tene.
Lifedrinker is definitely affected by DR, I read my combat log last night, and lifedrinker did about 25(7x) dmg to me which is about right since it probably proc when i had a 50% determination bar unstoppable.
On the idea of barkshield can counter tene, that is simply not true. A simple dot on you will completely consume your barkshield charges, thus you can only HOPE to be able to absort tene when it proc. Statisticly speaking, the chance of barkshield charge matching a tene proc is really low as there are so many dots could be applied on you (thus so many dot procs vs 1 tene proc), except for maybe the first hit; that is also a big maybe since if that cw with no tene ranged you, all your barkshield charges are gone, then the non range attker such as a gf with bull charge / or gwf hits you just a split sec later, you will not have any barkshield charges left to 'counter' tene (i guess this can also be a strategy in some teams with tene for sure). In s longer fight, any DOT on you will almost certainly 'waste' your barkshield, thus allow tene to do its full dmg.
This is the experience i had last night against 2 gwf with tene, i have not seen my barkshield abosrded ANY of their tene proc. So I dont know why people say barkshield is the counter for tene.
Good feedback,
What would be interesting to know then, is does ARP/ negative DR factors play a roll in necrotic damage such as lifedrinker or terror.
This wouldnt be too hard to test, equip just a weapon attack someone with significant DR, then equip a bunch of arp and do it again.
That is very interesting that not ALL sources of necrotic damage (tenebrous) work with DR.... It would only be logical then that it should work WITH DR, and by extension -DR via arp or debuffs?
Lifedrinker is definitely affected by DR, I read my combat log last night, and lifedrinker did about 25(7x) dmg to me which is about right since it probably proc when i had a 50% determination bar unstoppable.
On the idea of barkshield can counter tene, that is simply not true. A simple dot on you will completely consume your barkshield charges, thus you can only HOPE to be able to absort tene when it proc. Statisticly speaking, the chance of barkshield charge matching a tene proc is really low as there are so many dots could be applied on you (thus so many dot procs vs 1 tene proc), except for maybe the first hit; that is also a big maybe since if that cw with no tene ranged you, all your barkshield charges are gone, then the non range attker such as a gf with bull charge / or gwf hits you just a split sec later, you will not have any barkshield charges left to 'counter' tene (i guess this can also be a strategy in some teams with tene for sure). In s longer fight, any DOT on you will almost certainly 'waste' your barkshield, thus allow tene to do its full dmg.
This is the experience i had last night against 2 gwf with tene, i have not seen my barkshield abosrded ANY of their tene proc. So I dont know why people say barkshield is the counter for tene.
All tene's are going to proc within the first 3 attacks about 95% of the time, so given that you come up against a tene user 1v1 almost 5k of his tene procs will be absorbed, that's the vast majority.
Can other players bring down your barkshield charges before his tene's proc? Yes. But on the other hand if he accidently throws 1 at will at another person first will half or more of his tene's be used up? Yes. Barkshield has an 8 second recharge also, so you generate 2.5 charges in the tene CD.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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faiteaccompliiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2
edited October 2013
Barkshield is a good enchant but does not 'counter' tene's in general. It has the 3 charges which can be consumed by any dmg. therefore it is unreliable for this type of thing.
I am not for or against a Tene nerf, I know some super pvp'rs without them though so really, you guys think you need them more than you do. In fact one rogue who takes me down on a regular basis in a few hits (with my perfect barkshield etc.) has none :P
What I think they should do is give everyone one set of free 'remove enchants' on all armor containing tene's though.
All tene's are going to proc within the first 3 attacks about 95% of the time, so given that you come up against a tene user 1v1 almost 5k of his tene procs will be absorbed, that's the vast majority.
Can other players bring down your barkshield charges before his tene's proc? Yes. But on the other hand if he accidently throws 1 at will at another person first will half or more of his tene's be used up? Yes. Barkshield has an 8 second recharge also, so you generate 2.5 charges in the tene CD.
I agree at the first combat, they will proc within the first few attacks and quite often I DO see this enchant negate quite a bit of my FIRST tenebrous damage.
However, I have told you and PROVEN this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvMAMMrOdw&feature=youtu.be) Tebenrous enchants almost always have the first two SETS of procs MUCH MUCH less than 20 seconds on CD. In fact the average I have gathered from testing is about 12 seconds.
Sure you can negate SOME of the tenebrous damage on the first round, however you only build charges out of combat and that doesnt stop someone from getting back to back procs and then your barkshield really didnt do much.
Ontop of that, regardless of it being teneb damage or not, it will absorb NON teneb damage.
So I think your looking at this a little too narrow. On paper it seems the enchant CAN be used to HELP counter it.
However it is SO situational it CANNOT be claimed as a HARD counter.
Things mentioned above like dots, or NOT having tenebs proc at the first attacks, or others attacking first, or DOUBLE sets of teneb procs etc.
All the enchant really does is absorb X damage given the circumstances, it IS good and CAn help especially 1v1, however not alot of pvp is 1v1 scenarios.
Now the other issue is that ALOT of pvpers use teneb enchants and YOUR proposition is "just use barkshield" ok cool, so your basically telling everyone to use barkshield if they want to compete. That shouldnt be the case. It allows a person in a 1v1 to have their own benefit of an enchant like SF.
Ill just say this from experience and this is NOT me claiming to be "the best GF"
When I 1v1 other GFs without teneb (even if they have barkshield) what ends up happening is this.
First I burn their shield MUCH faster then they can burn mine because of tenebrous enchants, I THEN use encoutners without teneb and get my first rotation off. Bull charge, frontline, lunge and then back to block vs block. His barkshield typicalyl countered NOT my tene damage since that was blown shredding his shield but damage from my encounters.
Then in block vs block again, its only a few seconds until on average my tenebrous can proc again. (12s on average between the FIRST two procs) Since hes "out of combat" while we "block off" he can typically regain 1 MAYBE 2 charges.
My tenebrous then shred his shield (if my regular attacks dont already since hes already low from the first rotation).
Then ill have about 3-4 tenebrous if not all 6 and his barkshield will eat about 3 of those.
I then get another round of encounters off and he dies.
So in all, his barkshield didnt counter them, his guard did but that was the ENITRE advantage needed.
If I had all Darks instead I ran the math again yesterday and I could get a 12% boost in damage from power stacking and a 11% boost in -DR via ARP stacking, neither of those would help me break his guard faster and his barkshield would have STILL absorbed the same amount of damage.
Also, if he ever DOES somehow manage to get his encounter rotation on me, I have a greater SF allowing me 4 seconds to recoup my block or each his prones.
Even versus any other class, I can write out 1v1 examples where the barkshield would have absorbed the SAME amount of damage regardless of damage source (teneb or not) and because of the CD on teneb, the damage outweighs the barkshield.
And thats 1v1, not considering the countless scenarios in 5v5 matches where you get full procs because a CW threw a DoT on the target first.
Barkshield does not state that it doesn't regenerate charges in combat, and while I have not specifically watched it, I'm 90% sure I'm gaining charges in combat.
So even assuming that you are very lucky and get all 6 procs again in 12 seconds. After 12 seconds of combat with any class but a DC (assuming a non pug enemy) you aren't going to be 100% HP, and probably more like 50%, possibly even dead already if being focused. So your next round of Tene's does about half damage.
What if you had R9's? Barkshield would have absorbed just as much of your initial assault, but then your subsequent damage would still be at 100% and you would have a much greater chance of winning vs. a CW or TR. CW and TR are the classes that most use barkshield also.
In the same way that if you happen to get targeted by someone else first your Barkshield charges go away, if you happen to target a character other than the one you're going to focus next all your tene's go away, so that is not a relevant excuse that barkshield doesn't help you.
Does barkshield completely counter Tene's? Of course not. But it gives you a lot of burst resistance so that you can lower the tene users HP to make his subsequent attacks much less powerful, thereby giving the non-tene user the advantage in that combat.
Even you have said that at 50% HP R9's are > tene's and that is still with skewed numbers in favor of tene's.
So how does barkshield counter tene's? It gives players with regular enchants an advantage over tene users in 1v1.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Barkshield has 3 charges... it wont counter 5k dmg... it counters 3 tene proc at the most. So if you have 66 tenes 3 of them will go throgh. This is the best case already . On a longer fight ANY dot soch as deep grash WILL more than likely consume the barkshield simply due to the proc frequency on dot is way higher than tene which will proc every 20 sec. If you are lucky it will counter 1 tene on the 40 sec mark IF the tene proc 20 sec aftef the first hit.
Barkshield has 3 charges... it wont counter 5k dmg... it counters 3 tene proc at the most. So if you have 66 tenes 3 of them will go throgh. This is the best case already . On a longer fight ANY dot soch as deep grash WILL more than likely consume the barkshield simply due to the proc frequency on dot is way higher than tene which will proc every 20 sec. If you are lucky it will counter 1 tene on the 40 sec mark IF the tene proc 20 sec aftef the first hit.
From what I've observed barkshield must count the hit that procs the tene's and the procs as 1 strike, because I've been hit by 6 tene user before and taken only 2-3k damage.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
From my experience, barkshield regenerates 1 charge every 8 seconds. In combat, you just get hit as soon as the charge is ready, and it gets consumed. I see it this way: you start with 3 charges, 2.4k the first, 1.6k the second, 800 the last one. After 8 seconds, you get 1 charge and can absorb 800 damage. If you get hit, after 8 seconds you get another charge. If you do not get hit, after another 8 seconds you get the 1.6k charge. And so on.
In continuous combat, you get 800 damage absorbed by your barkshield.
I do agree, however, that it is not a hard counter. Still, the best a player can get to mitigate tene damage.
From my experience, barkshield regenerates 1 charge every 8 seconds. In combat, you just get hit as soon as the charge is ready, and it gets consumed. I see it this way: you start with 3 charges, 2.4k the first, 1.6k the second, 800 the last one. After 8 seconds, you get 1 charge and can absorb 800 damage. If you get hit, after 8 seconds you get another charge. If you do not get hit, after another 8 seconds you get the 1.6k charge. And so on.
In continuous combat, you get 800 damage absorbed by your barkshield.
I do agree, however, that it is not a hard counter. Still, the best a player can get to mitigate tene damage.
I am not really for or against tene nerf since I dont have it, thus dont really know it well enough; however the last sentense from above post is exactly one of the reason why so many people calls out for a nerf, since you really dont have anything to counter the dmg. Even if you can dodge the tene proc, it is still meh, since it will proc on the next sec and you still take the dmg. Except for high CON / high HP, i cant see a effective way to counter this one enchant. Furthermore, since other necrotic dmg are affected by DR and maybe deflect, it is kind of weird the tene is not affected by it. I blame the devs for this 'oversight'!
On the other hand barkshield is hailed as a good counter for tene, however upon further scrutiny, and personal experience, it is not really effective. If someone really wants to test it, try to do a 1v1 and have 3 charges of barkshield against 6 tene, and read the combat log to see exactly how it counters the dmgs for the FIRST hit of the fight. I can confidently state barkshield wont really be effective after the first hit, since every 8 secs it will be consumed by ANY dmg, likely some sort of dot due to dot proc frequency is the highest. However even if it is not consumed by dot, it will only counter every 1 tene per 2 tenen cycle (i.e., counter 1 out of 12 proc assume you have 6 tenes), since tene proc on 0, 20, 40 sec, and barkshield charges are built on 0,8,16,24,32,40.
tene proc on 0, 20, 40 sec, and barkshield charges are built on 0,8,16,24,32,40.
This is slightly off and what I have been trying to show.
Tene proc on lets assume 0 for the first set.
6 tenebs proc on the FIRST hit.
The NEXT 6 can proc ANYWHERE from 1-20 seconds later. Thats right ONE SECOND LATER. It ALL depends on WHEN you got the first set of procs. Its NOT a hard cd, its a SERVERSIDE CD.
What that means is if the time is 5:04:00 exactly, you have a 20 second window to proc tenebs and the NEXT cd available will be in 20 seconds at 5:04:20.
What happens though, if you proc your tenebs at 5:04:15 though! Well the NEXT set is STILL available at 5:04:20 meaning you have a FIVE second CD. But THEN because you got procs at 5:04:20 the NEXT CDs are not available until 5:04:40 THUS giving you the 20 sec CD.
Now It doesnt exactly run off server time as illustrted above :00 - :20 - :40 etc but I think it has something to do with when you zone into an instance.
If you run a Teneb CD tracker though the first two procs will almost ALWAYS be less than 20 seconds. My average was about 12 seconds. The lowest ive TRACKED was 3 seconds apart.
Now, how does that make a difference in pvp?
Well as most know, PVP is NOT constant DPS, its static bursts. When you are fighting at mid, youll based on average get your first two procs within twelve seconds. Well most fights dont last THAT long or even longer than 20 seconds meaning youll almost forsure get 2 sets of procs.
What happens then? There is downtime in which YES your tenebs cant proc again but guess what, you dont need them to. Its not until they respawn or you move points which takes TIME. Time that is counting down to your next Teneb procs.
So for fun, what if you got procs at :05 and :20 seconds. YOur next procs are available between :40-:59 So what happens if the fight ends at mid at :28 and it takes you another 10 seconds to fully cap the point and then 10 seconds to run to point 3 and initiate combat.
What time is it? well :28+10+10 = :48 and so you get another set of procs right away. and guess what?! your NEXT set of procs is at the new minute mark :00 which is only 12 seconds away!
YOu can see how this repeats itself in pvp alot.
Now there ARE scenarios in which your first proc is at :00 and you WILL have to wait 20 seconds. There are also times that your procs will be at low HP. But you can see how having that static burst combined with the type of CD it is, with the ability to get back to back procs can be pretty OP in pvp...
i know exactly what you mean for the first 2 set of tene to proc, the way i present it is the BEST senario for a barkshield wearer. IF they coninside exactly on 0 sec, then there is a chance to counter it at the 40th sec. IF they dont coninside on 0 sec, i.e., 0 sec proc, then 5 sec later it proc again, they wont match ever again, since 5+20+20+20+20 is never going to match 0,8,16,24,40; on the other hand if the 2nd tene proc is 4 sec later, then they will match again on the 24th sec, and from there on, barkshield and tene will match again every 40 sec. However there is just too many combinations, so i figure i will just use the most simple case.
The only time it really counters it is right off the bat on the first set up procs under special circumstances. When they first announced this enchant I lol'd because I said this is probably their attempt to counter teneb enchants, I mean its a damage absorb over time...
But either way, its NOT a hard counter. And teneb damage is supposed to be necrotic which ALL other sources of necro damage are NOT immune to DR effects.
Only SE on TRs is a comparison which IMO needs to be nerfed as well and factored by DR.
Comments
It is rather easy to dodge the GFs prones if you frequently move behind them, also GWF's CC resistance gives them an edge there.
i think they are equally good. GWF is easily countered by GF because they can throw the GWF all time without engaging in a death fight.
but then GF i think does more poorly against a rogue because of the mobility
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Well a GWF doesnt have a "hard counter" except a good GF who can pick up points via prones but most likely wont kill eachother, a GF cant do well on average against a good TR... So thats a pretty hard counter to the class....
The other aspect is a GF has almost zero chance 2v1 where as its easier for a GWF to 2v1 because of unstoppable.
Not saying that in high lvl pvp a GWF can 2v1 easily, just that because of unstoppable and mobility, the GWF will last longer and fair better on average compared to a GF who literally has no chance against even two decent players.
Cribstaxx,
"Your crit chance does not equal 14.4 * 3, it is simply 14.4% every single attack," - precisely, so when you run the statistics (do you know how to do the math?) it comes out to the math previously quoted.
I can crit for 10-12k on encounters but it takes quite a bit of debuffs from a CW or a GWF to do that type of damage, people have the bad habit of remembering the big numbers and not paying attention to the average small numbers, go 1v1 a GWF and tell me how hard your bull rush hits or even crits for, I think youll be disappointed on AVERAGE numbers, not the best crit you can muster, but the average crit. Ive tried many sets of gear I have a power stacking PVE set and the numbers still arent that far off. The only times I used to be able to HIT for 6-7k on AVERAGE and crit for 12k-14k without vorpal was with the pre nerf stalwarts set where I have about 11k power + 6 GTE, that was a stupid OP build.
You also need to remember ARP doesnt go negatives so that has not alot of bearing on your 1v1 ability only debuffs do, and anyway you slice it, against a tanky DC/GF or GWF you wont be close to negatives without help. Also if you think a GF is stronger than GWF you havnt gone up against our GWF with Briartwine where even if your constantly prone him, his 7 GTE will still hit you... Its pretty hard to beat even with 1600 regen. Not saying it cant happen but at best youll tie and on average hell still kill you.
The full tanky build is effective at SOME things but not AS effective in group play. The role of a GF isnt to backcap, its to prone/dps targets at the same time. Typically the GF holds mid and sometimes rotates home point. I wont get into this lets just say that Steroidz and I share the same philosophy here... So if you wanna talk to someone more about it, hit him up if he still plays, I used to share the philosophy of tanky GF since that is how I played GWF, however the damage loss does add up and you want to be able to slice through CW/TRs easy at mid.
We might be there saturday, it gets tricky because of all the time zones and life commitments we have in our guild. But it would be nice to play everyone
Cool! Hey I know we disagree on things but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy a PvP match now and again, even just for fun not some kind of ranking thing.
Playing against pugs, even when we only Q with 2-3 people is just no fun. Premade matches are always a blast, hope to see you there!
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yeah I am waiting to see this as well... Also if ARP and things will work with/against it then.
I would imagine that if DR will work against it, then things like ARP or debuffs would work FOR it?
It would be nice to get some clarification on this.
I am not as familiar with ALL the damage types, I know they each do different things.
Physical - full DR applies
Radiant - HALF DR applies
Necrotic - NO DR applies
There are other types of damage, can anyone else comment?
It seems like they will just move tenebrous damage from Necrotic to either radiant or just physical?
I am not 100% sure but I dont think radiant damage scales with arp or debuffs, however, physical does...
This is an area im fuzy in.
I know right... i just stole a page out of your playbook. Oh and sorry for calling you 16 (even though you act it). I got you confused with Lord Steroidz.
2mill to remove 7 is disgusting considering how long they have been in the game working as they are.
So just stack tenes and u won't have to worry about anything anywhere,,,, not even Astral shield!! This is broken
And u say guide on dealing with Tenes, stack HP? Are u serious? You are restricting our gameplay to some one thing that is OP? Like we have no other kind of opponents, cause FYI, not everyone can afford Tenes if u haven't noticed it!
This is just broken and you need to fix it.
- make them unable to pass through dodges and soulforged
- necrotic damage can still pass through defenses
- limit stacking to 3 enchants (9% total hp is enough, a tank build can still have a 3k damage added every 20 seconds. Which, for me, is fair)
- give the chance to remove enchants for free 1 time from players gear to let people adjust their builds without spending a ton of ADs
- give the chance to salvage tenes for the price they were sold in AH before the nerf announcement
I think it would be fair, would still make tenes useful for tank builds but not at the point of making them full tanks with the ability to burst damage with 7k necrotic damage every 20 seconds (on a high HP sentinel: 3%x6-7= 18-21%; 34-37k hp--->6120-7770 damage).
If you look for a normal build that can dish out some damage AND tank, on a GWF, you've to sacrifice regeneration and defense. To get critical and power/ ArP stats to a good point to deal damage, you can't use titan/IS+ titan sword exc..., you've to balance.
This means that after such a nerf, a full tank build with stacked regen/def/deflection/ hp would deal a lot less damage, even with 3 tenes stacked, and would not be able to outdamage the other builds with his 7k burst damage from tenes. On the other side, a tank willing to go for critical to deal damage, would be forced to sacrifice a part of his tankyness.
As it's supposed to be.
Thing is, such a powerful enchant as GTEs should never, ever stack like they do now.
Alternatively, leave them alone as they are and create those PvP ladders already, so people that have GTEs play against other people with GTEs in the end, since I'm sure the guys that have them will band together to maximize their win chances.
Although this is not so good of a solution. Best is that the PvP gear should be relatively easy to get without the need to put any real money into the game, by doing PvP. As soon as real money contaminate the PvP scene and there are items out there with prohibitive prices for a large part of the population, it all goes downhill. Skills should be 75% of success, gear 25%.
The WoW PvP model is best in my opinion. In 1 month of focused PvP, you could get BiS gear and play on equal footing with the best out there, and only skills made the difference.
Now how many months of insane CN farming would I need to equip 7 GTEs and BiS gear in NWO? I doubt that in the present state of the game I can do it in 6 months.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvMAMMrOdw&feature=youtu.be
I hit a DC in AS the other day with perf terror and its SUPPOSED to do about 80 damage depending on weapon hit,
It did like 40 damage.... I have alot of ARP so on most targets they dont have much left maybe 15% DR, however in AS my "necrotic" damage did a fraction of what it was supposed to.
Two theories:
1) Necrotic damage only gets mitigated by CERTAIN defensive abilities like AS.
2) Necrotic damage is mitigated by ALL defensive stats, most of the time GWF with max con has more than enough arp to cancel out TR/CW defenses but it would be niticable on a higher DR target like another GWF.
Can anyone confirm/deny via FOOTAGE that necro damage bypasses ALL DR
Terror/Lifedrinker are two off the top of my head outside of tenebs.
Lifedrinker is definitely affected by DR, I read my combat log last night, and lifedrinker did about 25(7x) dmg to me which is about right since it probably proc when i had a 50% determination bar unstoppable.
On the idea of barkshield can counter tene, that is simply not true. A simple dot on you will completely consume your barkshield charges, thus you can only HOPE to be able to absort tene when it proc. Statisticly speaking, the chance of barkshield charge matching a tene proc is really low as there are so many dots could be applied on you (thus so many dot procs vs 1 tene proc), except for maybe the first hit; that is also a big maybe since if that cw with no tene ranged you, all your barkshield charges are gone, then the non range attker such as a gf with bull charge / or gwf hits you just a split sec later, you will not have any barkshield charges left to 'counter' tene (i guess this can also be a strategy in some teams with tene for sure). In s longer fight, any DOT on you will almost certainly 'waste' your barkshield, thus allow tene to do its full dmg.
This is the experience i had last night against 2 gwf with tene, i have not seen my barkshield abosrded ANY of their tene proc. So I dont know why people say barkshield is the counter for tene.
Good feedback,
What would be interesting to know then, is does ARP/ negative DR factors play a roll in necrotic damage such as lifedrinker or terror.
This wouldnt be too hard to test, equip just a weapon attack someone with significant DR, then equip a bunch of arp and do it again.
That is very interesting that not ALL sources of necrotic damage (tenebrous) work with DR.... It would only be logical then that it should work WITH DR, and by extension -DR via arp or debuffs?
All tene's are going to proc within the first 3 attacks about 95% of the time, so given that you come up against a tene user 1v1 almost 5k of his tene procs will be absorbed, that's the vast majority.
Can other players bring down your barkshield charges before his tene's proc? Yes. But on the other hand if he accidently throws 1 at will at another person first will half or more of his tene's be used up? Yes. Barkshield has an 8 second recharge also, so you generate 2.5 charges in the tene CD.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I am not for or against a Tene nerf, I know some super pvp'rs without them though so really, you guys think you need them more than you do. In fact one rogue who takes me down on a regular basis in a few hits (with my perfect barkshield etc.) has none :P
What I think they should do is give everyone one set of free 'remove enchants' on all armor containing tene's though.
I agree at the first combat, they will proc within the first few attacks and quite often I DO see this enchant negate quite a bit of my FIRST tenebrous damage.
However, I have told you and PROVEN this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvMAMMrOdw&feature=youtu.be) Tebenrous enchants almost always have the first two SETS of procs MUCH MUCH less than 20 seconds on CD. In fact the average I have gathered from testing is about 12 seconds.
Sure you can negate SOME of the tenebrous damage on the first round, however you only build charges out of combat and that doesnt stop someone from getting back to back procs and then your barkshield really didnt do much.
Ontop of that, regardless of it being teneb damage or not, it will absorb NON teneb damage.
So I think your looking at this a little too narrow. On paper it seems the enchant CAN be used to HELP counter it.
However it is SO situational it CANNOT be claimed as a HARD counter.
Things mentioned above like dots, or NOT having tenebs proc at the first attacks, or others attacking first, or DOUBLE sets of teneb procs etc.
All the enchant really does is absorb X damage given the circumstances, it IS good and CAn help especially 1v1, however not alot of pvp is 1v1 scenarios.
Now the other issue is that ALOT of pvpers use teneb enchants and YOUR proposition is "just use barkshield" ok cool, so your basically telling everyone to use barkshield if they want to compete. That shouldnt be the case. It allows a person in a 1v1 to have their own benefit of an enchant like SF.
Ill just say this from experience and this is NOT me claiming to be "the best GF"
When I 1v1 other GFs without teneb (even if they have barkshield) what ends up happening is this.
First I burn their shield MUCH faster then they can burn mine because of tenebrous enchants, I THEN use encoutners without teneb and get my first rotation off. Bull charge, frontline, lunge and then back to block vs block. His barkshield typicalyl countered NOT my tene damage since that was blown shredding his shield but damage from my encounters.
Then in block vs block again, its only a few seconds until on average my tenebrous can proc again. (12s on average between the FIRST two procs) Since hes "out of combat" while we "block off" he can typically regain 1 MAYBE 2 charges.
My tenebrous then shred his shield (if my regular attacks dont already since hes already low from the first rotation).
Then ill have about 3-4 tenebrous if not all 6 and his barkshield will eat about 3 of those.
I then get another round of encounters off and he dies.
So in all, his barkshield didnt counter them, his guard did but that was the ENITRE advantage needed.
If I had all Darks instead I ran the math again yesterday and I could get a 12% boost in damage from power stacking and a 11% boost in -DR via ARP stacking, neither of those would help me break his guard faster and his barkshield would have STILL absorbed the same amount of damage.
Also, if he ever DOES somehow manage to get his encounter rotation on me, I have a greater SF allowing me 4 seconds to recoup my block or each his prones.
Even versus any other class, I can write out 1v1 examples where the barkshield would have absorbed the SAME amount of damage regardless of damage source (teneb or not) and because of the CD on teneb, the damage outweighs the barkshield.
And thats 1v1, not considering the countless scenarios in 5v5 matches where you get full procs because a CW threw a DoT on the target first.
So even assuming that you are very lucky and get all 6 procs again in 12 seconds. After 12 seconds of combat with any class but a DC (assuming a non pug enemy) you aren't going to be 100% HP, and probably more like 50%, possibly even dead already if being focused. So your next round of Tene's does about half damage.
What if you had R9's? Barkshield would have absorbed just as much of your initial assault, but then your subsequent damage would still be at 100% and you would have a much greater chance of winning vs. a CW or TR. CW and TR are the classes that most use barkshield also.
In the same way that if you happen to get targeted by someone else first your Barkshield charges go away, if you happen to target a character other than the one you're going to focus next all your tene's go away, so that is not a relevant excuse that barkshield doesn't help you.
Does barkshield completely counter Tene's? Of course not. But it gives you a lot of burst resistance so that you can lower the tene users HP to make his subsequent attacks much less powerful, thereby giving the non-tene user the advantage in that combat.
Even you have said that at 50% HP R9's are > tene's and that is still with skewed numbers in favor of tene's.
So how does barkshield counter tene's? It gives players with regular enchants an advantage over tene users in 1v1.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
From what I've observed barkshield must count the hit that procs the tene's and the procs as 1 strike, because I've been hit by 6 tene user before and taken only 2-3k damage.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
In continuous combat, you get 800 damage absorbed by your barkshield.
I do agree, however, that it is not a hard counter. Still, the best a player can get to mitigate tene damage.
I am not really for or against tene nerf since I dont have it, thus dont really know it well enough; however the last sentense from above post is exactly one of the reason why so many people calls out for a nerf, since you really dont have anything to counter the dmg. Even if you can dodge the tene proc, it is still meh, since it will proc on the next sec and you still take the dmg. Except for high CON / high HP, i cant see a effective way to counter this one enchant. Furthermore, since other necrotic dmg are affected by DR and maybe deflect, it is kind of weird the tene is not affected by it. I blame the devs for this 'oversight'!
On the other hand barkshield is hailed as a good counter for tene, however upon further scrutiny, and personal experience, it is not really effective. If someone really wants to test it, try to do a 1v1 and have 3 charges of barkshield against 6 tene, and read the combat log to see exactly how it counters the dmgs for the FIRST hit of the fight. I can confidently state barkshield wont really be effective after the first hit, since every 8 secs it will be consumed by ANY dmg, likely some sort of dot due to dot proc frequency is the highest. However even if it is not consumed by dot, it will only counter every 1 tene per 2 tenen cycle (i.e., counter 1 out of 12 proc assume you have 6 tenes), since tene proc on 0, 20, 40 sec, and barkshield charges are built on 0,8,16,24,32,40.
This is slightly off and what I have been trying to show.
Tene proc on lets assume 0 for the first set.
6 tenebs proc on the FIRST hit.
The NEXT 6 can proc ANYWHERE from 1-20 seconds later. Thats right ONE SECOND LATER. It ALL depends on WHEN you got the first set of procs. Its NOT a hard cd, its a SERVERSIDE CD.
What that means is if the time is 5:04:00 exactly, you have a 20 second window to proc tenebs and the NEXT cd available will be in 20 seconds at 5:04:20.
What happens though, if you proc your tenebs at 5:04:15 though! Well the NEXT set is STILL available at 5:04:20 meaning you have a FIVE second CD. But THEN because you got procs at 5:04:20 the NEXT CDs are not available until 5:04:40 THUS giving you the 20 sec CD.
Now It doesnt exactly run off server time as illustrted above :00 - :20 - :40 etc but I think it has something to do with when you zone into an instance.
If you run a Teneb CD tracker though the first two procs will almost ALWAYS be less than 20 seconds. My average was about 12 seconds. The lowest ive TRACKED was 3 seconds apart.
Now, how does that make a difference in pvp?
Well as most know, PVP is NOT constant DPS, its static bursts. When you are fighting at mid, youll based on average get your first two procs within twelve seconds. Well most fights dont last THAT long or even longer than 20 seconds meaning youll almost forsure get 2 sets of procs.
What happens then? There is downtime in which YES your tenebs cant proc again but guess what, you dont need them to. Its not until they respawn or you move points which takes TIME. Time that is counting down to your next Teneb procs.
So for fun, what if you got procs at :05 and :20 seconds. YOur next procs are available between :40-:59 So what happens if the fight ends at mid at :28 and it takes you another 10 seconds to fully cap the point and then 10 seconds to run to point 3 and initiate combat.
What time is it? well :28+10+10 = :48 and so you get another set of procs right away. and guess what?! your NEXT set of procs is at the new minute mark :00 which is only 12 seconds away!
YOu can see how this repeats itself in pvp alot.
Now there ARE scenarios in which your first proc is at :00 and you WILL have to wait 20 seconds. There are also times that your procs will be at low HP. But you can see how having that static burst combined with the type of CD it is, with the ability to get back to back procs can be pretty OP in pvp...
The only time it really counters it is right off the bat on the first set up procs under special circumstances. When they first announced this enchant I lol'd because I said this is probably their attempt to counter teneb enchants, I mean its a damage absorb over time...
But either way, its NOT a hard counter. And teneb damage is supposed to be necrotic which ALL other sources of necro damage are NOT immune to DR effects.
Only SE on TRs is a comparison which IMO needs to be nerfed as well and factored by DR.