hey now, I believe I still killed most people who came to me =p. and tbh a DC isnt gonna do much in SoloQ.
I wasn't saying it to be an a$$
I think I was maybe 5-12 going against you 1 vs 1. I had a lot of fun fighting you though.
I've fought many g-teny users before and won, I think its hardest(for me anyway), fighting a skilled TR with gtenys and a smart build. PoB with those is nasty and not a whole lot another TR can do about it.
Which is why I am very excited for the upcoming changes to Tenes, because I run a high deflect build. For me, tenes wont be a factor anymore.
I am however very curious and anxious to find out how they are going to do these changes.
For example. Lets use a 7Gtene user. On one proc of 7, are those 7 procs going to count as 1? So on a successful deflect all 7 hits would be deflected?
Or are they going to count 7 procs individually?
Personally I believe they should count them individually. They technically are 7 different hits, it would be unfair to both sides, to count them as a whole.
First of all,you're making it seem like playing with our guild in premades is easier than pugging. Even on my crappy alts, I am able to pugstomp and get 20+ kills on TR. Solo q-ing is much less special in my mind than a premade. In a premade, every member counts, map awareness is important, and one mistake can cost you your lead. In pugging, it is just a capping race in which you try to kill or distract as many members of the opposite team in order to win. No one in premades falls for the tricks of the players you will find in pugs. So, I have to wonder why you would be more impressed with solo q'ing when most of the players do not have as much skill mechanically and strategically as the players in premade.
I agree completely.
I was trying to make a point though.
1 person cannot claim "themselves" to be best in this game. Because its a 5 vs 5. You are as good as your team.
I agree you guys have the best "team" currently and enjoy fighting against you. But epeen stroking from gctrl on the forums is out of control and that dude needs a serious attitude adjustment.
I really hope they introduce large scale PvP fights sometime in the future.
I would love to be able to have Guild vs Guild fights. 30 on 30 on a massive playing field capturing objectives or playing capture the flag for points.
In EoA we may not have the best single 5 man team, but we have a solid 50+ members that on a 10 scale all average 8+.
So many people have made so many threads about this kinda stuff. They really need to start listening to us PvPrs. I'm pretty sure we out number the PvE community.
If it wasn't for Tenebrous I would have zero pvp kills. Thank you Tenebrous for being OP and hurting nerd butts. Add that math. Tenebrous + me = butthurt nerds.
If it wasn't for Tenebrous I would have zero pvp kills. Thank you Tenebrous for being OP and hurting nerd butts. Add that math. Tenebrous + me = butthurt nerds.
YOu don't need kills Gerfty! You get to sit on nodes like a jackoffasaur contesting the point FOREVER! =P
In EoA we may not have the best single 5 man team, but we have a solid 50+ members that on a 10 scale all average 8+.
Another example of how you accuse me of epeen stroking and then do it yourself in the very next sentence. This thread is littered with other examples of you doing this.
Another example of how you accuse me of epeen stroking and then do it yourself in the very next sentence. This thread is littered with other examples of you doing this.
lol I don't need to flex my muscles here, I'm just telling you the truth, get over it.
Theres nothing for me to "get over" princess. I'm not upset in the least about anything
Its impossible to have a normal discussion with you about anything, without you telling everyone how awesome you are, and how your guild is the best, and people that aren't like you don't deserve to speak, or have opinions.
Saying my guild isn't the best, but we have many good members is the opposite of epeen stroking. Fuzzy logic you got there fancy pants. I'm just going to pretend you don't exist from now on, not worth my time to continually rebut nonsense.
LOL! I hear a lot of "Pro" PVP, "High end" PVP , "End Game" PVP and competitive pvp. There is only PVP. Until such time as there is a ranking system there is only PVP. There is only one pvp queue. If you so called "elite" PVP guilds truly believed in "competitive pvp" you would only do premade vs premade. Yet there you all are going up against random pugs yet say you are all "elite". I don't know about you "elite" players but having a team drop out against our casual family guild makes pvp boring as hell.
The teneb enchant was always op. This should have been balanced months ago.
gctrl you need to really go ahead and reread the EULA and TOS and then just file a lawsuit already instead of making the threats. You agreed to those just like the rest of us and sadly it give the company free reign to make changes as they see fit. You do not own anything in the game. There is no consumer protection on digital goods in North America. The game could shut down and none of us would be able to do anything about it. Sadly that is how the gaming business works. Spending money in the game is a convenience to speed up the acquiring of gear. If it was easy as filing a lawsuit it would have been done and the business model would have changed!
Tenebs have to be balanced. I do not want to see them gone from the game. You guys keep saying they are equal to rank 9/10 enchants. Rank 9/10 players are much easier to beat with lower rank enchants than tene users are. If the balancing goes too far and they become too weak then they can tweak them again. You guys keep claiming; "well players can still get more tenes" but that is false. There is only a finite number of nightmare boxes left as they no longer drop. Meaning there is only a small number of new tenebs that are available to new players. Every player should have equal opportunity to get the same gear either by spending money or farming AD. Right now that is not even a possibility.
Tenes need to be balanced. I agree with the free disenchant if changes are made just as they do with respecing when balancing classes.
Option A:
I like the idea of defense/deflect working against them.
I would like to see direct damage to be able to proc them only. None of this dot run away garbage (I mean so much skill involved in this).
Time can be adjusted as needed, either increased or decreased depending on how they work after being fixed.
Option B:
Anti teneb enchant. An enchant designed to resist teneb enchants. Lesser 10%, normal 20%, Greater 30% for defense slot! This is a great option because the teneb users cannot say anything about this because it is not a direct change of their enchants. It is an easy effective method to defend against a broken enchant.
Option C:
Bring back the teneb in the lock boxes so every single player new/old has a shot at getting them. I mean once everyone is in full tenebs using the same builds pvp would be so much better!
Side notes: I like the fact how in the zone chat in PVP many of the players posting here said they never spent a dime on their accounts when some random pug accusing them of buying it. Yet all of a sudden on the forums they have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on the game when changes to some of that gear .
I also like the fact that some of you say gear does not matter yet when you play an alt and get beat the exact response is I have not geared this toon yet! The gear itself is minor but the enchants are huge! Skill only matters when players are equal in gear!
I would like to know how many of the tenebs in game came from the caturday exploit or from the AD that many players managed to launder before their tertiary accounts were banned?
people that aren't like you don't deserve to speak, or have opinions.
I said people that have little to no experience with the game or pvp should not have their opinions count. Everyone gets to have an opinion, not all opinions are equally valid.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
were not even asking them to listen to our opinion, our opinion dosent matter, allll of us
what we want is for them not to listen to complaints and freaking look at the higher lvl of pvp, if they do and still decide to nerf, then at least they will be doing it the right way.
responding to nerf demands by randoms is the problem here
LOL! I hear a lot of "Pro" PVP, "High end" PVP , "End Game" PVP and competitive pvp. There is only PVP. Until such time as there is a ranking system there is only PVP. There is only one pvp queue.
If you so called "elite" PVP guilds truly believed in "competitive pvp" you would only do premade vs premade. Yet there you all are going up against random pugs yet say you are all "elite". I don't know about you "elite" players but having a team drop out against our casual family guild makes pvp boring as hell.
We do both, we premade vs premade and go against pugs, it's impractical to try and do premades 24/7. And who would log on wanting to pvp and just sit around for hours waiting for a guild to have a 5 man ready.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
At least LS are civilized and offer 1 vs 1 and they seemed modest and cool enough when I've met them. Other premades focus on camping the other team even if they know and understand it's a "Perfect Vorpal" vs "Fresh at 60" matchup, and they cannot be bothered to 1 vs 1.
However, I suggested to many people/guilds that have lots of gear and PvP experience to just stop queuing together. It completely breaks the games and all that can be achieved is either the other team leaves, maybe 1-2 remain behind, either they remain in camp. In the extremely rare case, you find another premade, but this is better not to be left at RnG's mercy.
When you guys have a team/partial team ready, why don't you try to find opponents in /lfg, so you can fight something near your level? The difference between geared&seasoned PvPer and your average pugger is HUGE, nothing somebody can do to challenge you. When I find myself in these matches, I ask if somebody wants 1 vs 1, if not, I leave... it's 0 fun to be had destroying people without gear.
what we want is for them not to listen to complaints and freaking look at the higher lvl of pvp, if they do and still decide to nerf, then at least they will be doing it the right way.
responding to nerf demands by randoms is the problem here
What is the formula here for "higher lvl of pvp".
In MOST games, this comes from players farming the best gear and then specifically gearing and speccing characters out for PVP focus using PVP gear.
I think we can all agree on this correct?
The one KEY word I want to focus on is FARM. In this game, Tenebrous enchants cannot be farmed. They cannot even be obtained anymore from boxes. What can be farmed? Well up to a R10 enchant, which completely pales in comparison to Tenebrous enchants currently.
By definition of the above, R10 would be the "higher lvl pvp" - This is typically where players find broken builds and synergies and what I believe the DEVs should look towards to find what is OP and what builds and items need a re-work.
This, I BELIEVE, is the nature of the Tenebrous nerf.
When you watch "higher lvl pvp vids" that both enemy team (TSB formerly) and LS posts, a large majority of players are running tenebrous.
If the enchant was balanced, youd see more players running R10 builds, but you dont.
So what do you think should happen?
You have an item that is BIS, no longer attainable, and even when it was available, you could not even farm for it, you HAD to buy it, either from the AH via someone else spending real money, or just someone spending money.
Now there are two options I see here,
1) Nerf Tene to bring it back inline with the "BIS" enchants (aka R10s) which I think proposed nerf does very well, R10 damage is "mitigated by DR, dodge-able, and delectable" and now Tenebrous is the same.
or 2) Make Tenebrous enchants offered through other means of farming. Should it be difficult? Sure, but attainable through farming to allow for an eventually even playing field to those that want them.
The issue I see with #2:
This makes a further divide of PVP/PVE that others have mentioned in this thread. PVP as a whole in general does not thrive from separation with PVE, but in unison with PVE.
When you make Tenebrous attainable by the PVP community, this because the item everyone then stacks and gets, although it is horrible for PVE purposes.
This would create that divide. ALSO, players would then feel ripped off STILL that they "spend all this money" to get them, and now they are farmable via in game.
Either balance option you have, makes players who HAD the tene feel ripped off.
The best option I see is to bring them back inline with BIS R10 enchants.
This makes them still HEAVILY valued and HEAVILY sought after for PVP although NOT at a severe advantage over someone who has the farmable BIS enchants.
Step 1 - Have 2 premades queue for PVP
Step 2 - Do not cap any points. Now you have a setting to actually practice.
Step 3 - 1 v 1 against a class you need practice.
Step 4 - run 2 v 1, 3 v 2....any combination you choose.
Step 5 - Rush to forums and brag you killed someone!
This message brought to you by Tenebrous. Maker of fine whine and delicious tears.
Step 1 - Have 2 premades queue for PVP
Step 2 - Do not cap any points. Now you have a setting to actually practice.
Step 3 - 1 v 1 against a class you need practice.
Step 4 - run 2 v 1, 3 v 2....any combination you choose.
Step 5 - Rush to forums and brag you killed someone!
This message brought to you by Tenebrous. Maker of fine whine and delicious tears.
While you can crack jokes about the enchant being OP & Broken and people's reactions to it ...
What you cant change is the whine and tears seem to be coming from the Tene wearers now.
Step 1 - Have 2 premades queue for PVP
Step 2 - Do not cap any points. Now you have a setting to actually practice.
Step 3 - 1 v 1 against a class you need practice.
Step 4 - run 2 v 1, 3 v 2....any combination you choose.
Welcome to 4 months ago.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Alysin, if it makes you feel any better....Svet's GF killed Gctrl's GF in a 1v1 yesterday
While you can crack jokes about the enchant being OP & Broken and people's reactions to it ...
What you cant change is the whine and tears seem to be coming from the Tene wearers now.
Lol this post shines ignorance.....
Tene are worthless in pve so not making them work in pvp, your basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to people who have these. Not a plausible solution and the only reason I can see you posting this is to just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> more players off....
1v1s dont really prove much, I also know Gctrl hasnt playing his GF in a while and it just hit 60 so he is a little rusty, ontop of that, he doesnt use tenes.
GF 1v1s are almost a battle of who has the better internet connection since whoever gets the first prone pretty much can 100-0 them fairly easily.
Now what makes it somewhat fun, is saying no dailies allowed since then it introduces more combos needed to kill.
But like I said, 1v1s dont show much about pvp skill.
Id also wager the best/optimized pvp GF ISNT going to be specced for 1v1s since his role in domination ISNT to 1v1, so a poorly specced GF for typical 5v5 matches could completely dominate in a 1v1 scenario against a BIS GF for 5v5s.
Just pointing out the facts,
Its almost like a Dest GWF 1v1ing and being able to burst down other players... But in a 5v5 match Dest GWFs are worthless...
this game is still very young, builds take a while to perfect, and for the past month we are seing more and more builds emerge that are without tenes, they just need time to get figured out, its not because tenes are the only option, far from it
this game is still very young, builds take a while to perfect, and for the past month we are seing more and more builds emerge that are without tenes, they just need time to get figured out, its not because tenes are the only option, far from it
I actually agree, just sad that everyone copies in this game and the only original players are the few trailblazers like Banelorne who do the testing
Heimdall, dont allow your bias to cloud your judgement. I made that post because anything else I can add has been said 47 times already. Just get rid of the things to settle this once and for all.
The Tene users will claim end game pvp will die but we all know end game pvp will do quite well, just THIER version of PvP will die and that is something most of the player base seems to accept.
Dev's... proceed with the chop.
Edit: oh i see why your defensive Heimdall, you moved all your Tene's to your GF WTFProned
this game is still very young, builds take a while to perfect, and for the past month we are seing more and more builds emerge that are without tenes, they just need time to get figured out, its not because tenes are the only option, far from it
Once they are nerfed I couldnt agree more, however as it stands now, Tene is BIS for pvp hands down. There is a reason so many tene builds have emerged over time... While the game is very young, its also not that complicated and most of what is possible has been tried.
part of the key to knowing that? People are using lvl 45 blue gear because of regen stats, People are using blue belts/rings/necks because of those stats. People are using Blue helms/feet/gloves. People are using random pieces that I would wager were not intended to be BIS items, that are now BIS items in pvp....
Im not saying there cant be more evolved builds that work well without tene, I know builds that work wel lwithout tene, im saying that for most classes the best build revolves around tene.
GF/GWF/TR are easy examples of this, I dont know CWs that well but I do regard Lantiss as one of the best CWs in game and considering he used them effectively, and could have easily used R9s+ but didnt, id wager the build was top notch, and probably why you yourself are running teneb enchants as well. If it WERENT that OP, then you probably wouldnt be running it.
Our CW does extremely well in PVP without tenebs, so maybe for CWs (again I dont know the class well) there ARE true alternatives. I play a TR and I think my build works WELL but not as well as teneb builds. GF builds can work WELL but not as good, GWF - well thats an easy story.
Point is:
If you truly believe what you say, then the tene nerf would NOT be a big deal since you would further develop these "no tene" builds...
Tenebrous need to follow the rules like all the others.
I honestly cant believe its even a discussion, that people are trying to argue it SHOULD ignore everything. It defies all logic, everyone knew it was broken, and NOT working as intended in the first place. Most users even said, "its just a matter of time before they fix this broken enchant.
Are greater tene users all of a sudden going to be terrible? No..the good ones will continue to be good. However, being like minded PvP'rs at the top level, there is NO way you can deny how incredibly unfair and cheap Tenes are/were, in the hands of a SKILLED, well built player. More so TR's.
What do you mean Alysin?
LS, EoA, Silent Blade and many others of the top PvP guilds. Have all said it before. WE LIKE COMPETITION.
That being said. Please explain to me how a Perma Stealth TR using 7 Greater Tenes bursting down BiS skilled players with Path of Blades and CoS all the while being completely unseen is using any sort of skill, or allowing for any sort of competitive nature? Yes it takes skill and battle awareness to be able to stay actually perma stealthed. I'm not denying that. But ONLY because of Stacking these enchants, are they able to do this. This isn't skill guys. This isn't competitive. It is cheap, and unfair.
You can twist my words anyway you like them, no matter how you look at it. That particular scenario involves no skill whatsoever. Tenes do there unintended job very well. They are broken, and that is why people like them, and that is why they are the most sought after enchant. Because they do something nothing else can.
Do I think End Game PvP is going to change for some people? Absolutely. Do I think bad players are all of a sudden going to be good? Of course not. Good players will continue to be good, because that is what they do. Adapt and over come and find something else that works.
I'm going to use K the TR from LS as a basis of personal comparison.
From the fights I had with him. He won the majority of times. Off the top of my head I would guess I was roughly 30% against him 1 vs 1. Of our 12 or so fights, neither of us were perfect by any measure against each other. I would say we were very well matched as far as skill goes and I would be very surprised if he disagreed. That being said, the times he did win, he was more often then not at Soulforge proc, or at the very least under 30%.
I'm not saying he ONLY beat me because of the Tenebrous. It was however a very large factor in our fights together, only a fool would say otherwise. He was skilled at using the right abilities, he was skilled at staying in stealth, he was skilled at knowing when to back off and regen etc etc, what he was not skilled in...is the Tenes themselves. They simply just work, and work unintended. It IS going to be a very different fight when him and I meet again. Am I saying that I'm going to all of a sudden stomp him into a ragequit? No. But I would bet my account its going to be much more like 50/50 then our previous 30/70.
I never complained about the Tenebrous enchants in the past, in any form, ever. So please don't act like I'm some yeeeaaah lets nerf tene advocate. I simply am happy for the change, BECAUSE
> I <
feel Tenebrous enchants the way they are NOT competitive.
We already have enough flames in this ridiculous thread so if flames is all you got then don't respond to me, I'm done arguing with people over something this silly. If you've got something legitimate to say about what I said then please feel free.
I'm going to use K the TR from LS as a basis of personal comparison.
From the fights I had with him. He won the majority of times. Off the top of my head I would guess I was roughly 30% against him 1 vs 1. Of our 12 or so fights, neither of us were perfect by any measure against each other. I would say we were very well matched as far as skill goes and I would be very surprised if he disagreed. That being said, the times he did win, he was more often then not at Soulforge proc, or at the very least under 30%.
I'm not saying he ONLY beat me because of the Tenebrous.It was however a very large factor in our fights together, only a fool would say otherwise.
Soooo...you basically say he killed you more because of :
1- Luck ( The soulforged proc)
2- Tenerbrous ( no matter how much you twist it around, you did say he won because of it )
Conclusion:
a Player who doesn;t use tenebrous is more skilled than a player who does :O
Well by that logic, i would say that anyone who isn't using greater SF and greater Vorpal rank 7 enchants is also more skilled than the one who uses them right? :cool:
Tenebrous need to follow the rules like all the others.
We may not have agreed about things in the past, but I agree with everything you just said. Very well put, and while I have and AM an advocate of the nerf, I think and hope the nerf will bring about more competitive pvp and I think its a necessary change for this game.
My only beef with the enchant is that its still going to be VERY bad in PVE and I would love to see some alternative to make it MORE balanced, just different than stack stacking.
Having enchants like tenebrous create a divide between pvp and pve that I would love to see closed. I have an entirely different set for PVE because tenebrous are so bad...
There are alot of ways to change the enchant that would not make it game breaking and could potentially be very fun! I mean something as simple as "Hits deal 3% of weapon damage as necrotic damage" would be cool, Much like the terror enchant does. This would STILL be a very good enchant.
Or if Tenebrous just gave FLAT % boosts, 2% crit or 2% arp on greaters and 1% on normals with a vendor for lessers at 100k AD each.
OR even enchants that give + ability points, like a vendor that sells +1Con and +1 Dex enchant for sale via tenebrous you could then choose between +str/+dex roll enchants etc....
OR just rework how tenebrous damage is done, should be calculated on base HP instead of total, Cd reduced, able to proc on multiple enemies, etc...
The current proposition fixes the PVP issue, but still makes the enchants worthless for PVE, it would be NICE (IMO) to have that divide reduced or gone completely....
Soooo...you basically say he killed you more because of :
1- Luck ( The soulforged proc)
2- Tenerbrous ( no matter how much you twist it around, you did say he won because of it )
Conclusion:
a Player who doesn;t use tenebrous is more skilled than a player who does :O
Well by that logic, i would say that anyone who isn't using greater SF and greater Vorpal rank 7 enchants is also more skilled than the one who uses them right? :cool:
I am saying that because of how lethal Tenebrous are in a Perma Stealth build, even though I personally feel that we are of the same caliber of player, he had an advantage over me, that wasn't because of skill, it was because of the way Tenebrous work.
You can blow up and highlight any text of mine you want, I made it very clear saying I feel him and I are on the same level, and even after the change, it will be a coin toss, or a matter of whose ping is better that day when we face each other 1 vs 1.
You must have missed the part when I said if you want to flame don't bother.
Explain to me how you feel that Tenebrous enchants are even remotely competitive at all, when nothing is able to stop them.
I am saying that because of how lethal Tenebrous are in a Perma Stealth build, even though I personally feel that we are of the same caliber of player, he had an advantage over me, that wasn't because of skill, it was because of the way Tenebrous work.
You can blow up and highlight any text of mine you want, I made it very clear saying I feel him and I are on the same level, and even after the change, it will be a coin toss, or a matter of whose ping is better that day when we face each other 1 vs 1.
You must have missed the part when I said if you want to flame don't bother.
Explain to me how you feel that Tenebrous enchants are even remotely competitive at all, when nothing is able to stop them.
hmm..where did i flame? unless disagreeing with you= flame.
I just wanted to highlight how you said that you both are same level of skill..and then you went 180 degree change and said " but he won cuz of tene and SF ". It sounded more like an excuse more than a justification.
If you want to prove something, put numbers or videos of you fighting him. "Feelings" doesn't prove anything on interwebz.
For those that think Tenebrous isnt OP, just some food for thought here.
Most of you know Blacksheep TR from Enemy Team (used to be TSB). He posted a pre nerf Lurkers video that alot of people watched, where he was NOT using tene and blowing people up in pvp.
Then he switched to Tene, and made a new video. Here is a quote he made about his Current TR with Tenebrous versus his old TR without,
"Actually im 10x more stronger than on the video.
The Blacksheep from now days would kill the Blacksheep from video over and over again."
So to say it again, his tenebrous Build is 10x more stronger than his old build without tenebrous. Thats his view about the build and the enchant.
Now I dont know about 10x stronger, but stronger? clearly.
The thing is, even after the nerf, they are still BiS for PvP. So i'm not sure whats the point of this mix of dramatic dilemma
If they will be affected by DR, then would their damage be affected by armor pen and mitigation debuffs? I.E if i have 20% armor pen and 3% mitigation debuff, and my opponent has 40% DR...will i ignore 40-23 = 17% of his DRs...leaving him with only 17% DR against my tene?
From the way they interact with barkshield, it means they will interact with DR/Deflect the same way as 7x individual procs?
Well...whether you like their attitude towards you or not...they have proven to be the best PvP guild in whole NWO more than once (including equally geared matches on Preview shard) with respectful gameplay match ups aswell.
Besides, you can't just expect people to be nice when you provoke and throw empty accusation at them don't you think?
I did quit, before the servers merged or me knowing about it, now I'm trying to get back, sorry that I'm not p2w or exploity as you expected me to be, it takes time to get my enchants back.
and why should I pay attention to what you say? unlike you I contributed to this thread when it was created and I've been sharing information since then, heck in general I always share information regarding game mechanics, you and MANY others never created any threads demanding nerfs to tenes, but now all of a sudden you just jump on the band wagon like you knew it all along.
You don't even know how they work, what 50/50 guessing games they create, that's why I listen to ayroux and others that HAVE tenes and are against it, these "rebalance" threads (remind you this thread was created by LS guild leader to help people combat tenes, oh the irony) were created after PTR event, they came from participants, so yeah i feel i have a say when i was there with them.
I did quit, before the servers merged or me knowing about it, now I'm trying to get back, sorry that I'm not p2w or exploity as you expected me to be, it takes time to get my enchants back.
and why should I pay attention to what you say? unlike you I contributed to this thread when it was created and I've been sharing information since then, heck in general I always share information regarding game mechanics, you and MANY others never created any threads demanding nerfs to tenes, but now all of a sudden you just jump on the band wagon like you knew it all along.
You don't even know how they work, what 50/50 guessing games they create, that's why I listen to ayroux and others that HAVE tenes and are against it, these "rebalance" threads (remind you this thread was created by LS guild leader to help people combat tenes, oh the irony) were created after PTR event, they came from participants, so yeah i feel i have a say when i was there with them.
Yeah I have to say Lantiss is pretty "**** friendly" in that hes pretty open about builds enchants and what not, even offering advice to people AND offering to stream (while he was playing more actively).
Its really sad people want to come in here and bash/flame about the tene nerf. What I find amusing is that people dont take the time to figure out exactly who is talking about what to even see if their opinion should be considered valid or not.
So many times that I posted about tenes, it was met with massive flame first accusing me of being some **** who lost in pvp and now came to QQ on the forums.
Ive had tenes for longer than probably most people in this game that still play....
Lantiss is another one of those, and id say that out of all the people that play this game, his perspective and opinion SHOULD definitely warrant some weight because of his pretty extensive knowledge of the game and experience.
Now, Im pretty sure Lantiss and I have disagreed on many things since this games inception, but that doesnt mean we cant respect eachothers opinions.
I agree that we should be able to be civil about all this, sometimes issues get heated especially when people try and brag on a nerf forum, and people post stupid stuff, so lets just all move on and get to the issue at hand...
Tenebrous feedback to the DEVS.
it seems like any new thread about it gets moved in here and unfortunately now its so many pages of text, the DEVs probably wont read this.
Great you posted a way to combat tene's. All that work to combat a single enchant? No other enchant in the game requires that much work to combat. The guide itself is proof that it is an OP enchant.
single enchant? this is the MAIN reason this enchant is considered so strong, because back then people overlooked it, before people understood how cryptic trolls us with gear scores and diminishing returns, anything that is "greater" wasn't considered so good. mind you greater plague fire was better than vorpal, not because of its amazing stats, but because it stacked. where do you see any plague fire threads? you don't, because it was "fixed" (they broke it) in time, but people still bought vorpal and dark 10s, because hey if it goes up to 10 it means its better right? who the hell knew about DR caps and all the hidden stacking stats back then.
I assure you if we go back 4 months ago and people knowing about this enchant, we will either have everyone use it or removed from the game by now, it would be considered just a standard pvp enchant.
Comments
I wasn't saying it to be an a$$
I think I was maybe 5-12 going against you 1 vs 1. I had a lot of fun fighting you though.
I've fought many g-teny users before and won, I think its hardest(for me anyway), fighting a skilled TR with gtenys and a smart build. PoB with those is nasty and not a whole lot another TR can do about it.
Which is why I am very excited for the upcoming changes to Tenes, because I run a high deflect build. For me, tenes wont be a factor anymore.
I am however very curious and anxious to find out how they are going to do these changes.
For example. Lets use a 7Gtene user. On one proc of 7, are those 7 procs going to count as 1? So on a successful deflect all 7 hits would be deflected?
Or are they going to count 7 procs individually?
Personally I believe they should count them individually. They technically are 7 different hits, it would be unfair to both sides, to count them as a whole.
I agree completely.
I was trying to make a point though.
1 person cannot claim "themselves" to be best in this game. Because its a 5 vs 5. You are as good as your team.
I agree you guys have the best "team" currently and enjoy fighting against you. But epeen stroking from gctrl on the forums is out of control and that dude needs a serious attitude adjustment.
I really hope they introduce large scale PvP fights sometime in the future.
I would love to be able to have Guild vs Guild fights. 30 on 30 on a massive playing field capturing objectives or playing capture the flag for points.
In EoA we may not have the best single 5 man team, but we have a solid 50+ members that on a 10 scale all average 8+.
So many people have made so many threads about this kinda stuff. They really need to start listening to us PvPrs. I'm pretty sure we out number the PvE community.
YOu don't need kills Gerfty! You get to sit on nodes like a jackoffasaur contesting the point FOREVER! =P
Until I have Shocking!
Another example of how you accuse me of epeen stroking and then do it yourself in the very next sentence. This thread is littered with other examples of you doing this.
lol I don't need to flex my muscles here, I'm just telling you the truth, get over it.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Theres nothing for me to "get over" princess. I'm not upset in the least about anything
Its impossible to have a normal discussion with you about anything, without you telling everyone how awesome you are, and how your guild is the best, and people that aren't like you don't deserve to speak, or have opinions.
Saying my guild isn't the best, but we have many good members is the opposite of epeen stroking. Fuzzy logic you got there fancy pants. I'm just going to pretend you don't exist from now on, not worth my time to continually rebut nonsense.
Cheers!
Find me one quote where I talk about how awesome we are.
Find me a quote where I specifically say we're the best.
I said people that have little to no experience with the game or pvp should not have their opinions count. Everyone gets to have an opinion, not all opinions are equally valid.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
what we want is for them not to listen to complaints and freaking look at the higher lvl of pvp, if they do and still decide to nerf, then at least they will be doing it the right way.
responding to nerf demands by randoms is the problem here
Yup, keep making excuses for yourself.
We do both, we premade vs premade and go against pugs, it's impractical to try and do premades 24/7. And who would log on wanting to pvp and just sit around for hours waiting for a guild to have a 5 man ready.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
However, I suggested to many people/guilds that have lots of gear and PvP experience to just stop queuing together. It completely breaks the games and all that can be achieved is either the other team leaves, maybe 1-2 remain behind, either they remain in camp. In the extremely rare case, you find another premade, but this is better not to be left at RnG's mercy.
When you guys have a team/partial team ready, why don't you try to find opponents in /lfg, so you can fight something near your level? The difference between geared&seasoned PvPer and your average pugger is HUGE, nothing somebody can do to challenge you. When I find myself in these matches, I ask if somebody wants 1 vs 1, if not, I leave... it's 0 fun to be had destroying people without gear.
What is the formula here for "higher lvl of pvp".
In MOST games, this comes from players farming the best gear and then specifically gearing and speccing characters out for PVP focus using PVP gear.
I think we can all agree on this correct?
The one KEY word I want to focus on is FARM. In this game, Tenebrous enchants cannot be farmed. They cannot even be obtained anymore from boxes. What can be farmed? Well up to a R10 enchant, which completely pales in comparison to Tenebrous enchants currently.
By definition of the above, R10 would be the "higher lvl pvp" - This is typically where players find broken builds and synergies and what I believe the DEVs should look towards to find what is OP and what builds and items need a re-work.
This, I BELIEVE, is the nature of the Tenebrous nerf.
When you watch "higher lvl pvp vids" that both enemy team (TSB formerly) and LS posts, a large majority of players are running tenebrous.
If the enchant was balanced, youd see more players running R10 builds, but you dont.
So what do you think should happen?
You have an item that is BIS, no longer attainable, and even when it was available, you could not even farm for it, you HAD to buy it, either from the AH via someone else spending real money, or just someone spending money.
Now there are two options I see here,
1) Nerf Tene to bring it back inline with the "BIS" enchants (aka R10s) which I think proposed nerf does very well, R10 damage is "mitigated by DR, dodge-able, and delectable" and now Tenebrous is the same.
or 2) Make Tenebrous enchants offered through other means of farming. Should it be difficult? Sure, but attainable through farming to allow for an eventually even playing field to those that want them.
The issue I see with #2:
This makes a further divide of PVP/PVE that others have mentioned in this thread. PVP as a whole in general does not thrive from separation with PVE, but in unison with PVE.
When you make Tenebrous attainable by the PVP community, this because the item everyone then stacks and gets, although it is horrible for PVE purposes.
This would create that divide. ALSO, players would then feel ripped off STILL that they "spend all this money" to get them, and now they are farmable via in game.
Either balance option you have, makes players who HAD the tene feel ripped off.
The best option I see is to bring them back inline with BIS R10 enchants.
This makes them still HEAVILY valued and HEAVILY sought after for PVP although NOT at a severe advantage over someone who has the farmable BIS enchants.
Step 2 - Do not cap any points. Now you have a setting to actually practice.
Step 3 - 1 v 1 against a class you need practice.
Step 4 - run 2 v 1, 3 v 2....any combination you choose.
Step 5 - Rush to forums and brag you killed someone!
This message brought to you by Tenebrous. Maker of fine whine and delicious tears.
*solved*
Alysin, if it makes you feel any better....Svet's GF killed Gctrl's GF in a 1v1 yesterday
While you can crack jokes about the enchant being OP & Broken and people's reactions to it ...
What you cant change is the whine and tears seem to be coming from the Tene wearers now.
Welcome to 4 months ago.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Lol this post shines ignorance.....
Tene are worthless in pve so not making them work in pvp, your basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to people who have these. Not a plausible solution and the only reason I can see you posting this is to just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> more players off....
1v1s dont really prove much, I also know Gctrl hasnt playing his GF in a while and it just hit 60 so he is a little rusty, ontop of that, he doesnt use tenes.
GF 1v1s are almost a battle of who has the better internet connection since whoever gets the first prone pretty much can 100-0 them fairly easily.
Now what makes it somewhat fun, is saying no dailies allowed since then it introduces more combos needed to kill.
But like I said, 1v1s dont show much about pvp skill.
Id also wager the best/optimized pvp GF ISNT going to be specced for 1v1s since his role in domination ISNT to 1v1, so a poorly specced GF for typical 5v5 matches could completely dominate in a 1v1 scenario against a BIS GF for 5v5s.
Just pointing out the facts,
Its almost like a Dest GWF 1v1ing and being able to burst down other players... But in a 5v5 match Dest GWFs are worthless...
I actually agree, just sad that everyone copies in this game and the only original players are the few trailblazers like Banelorne who do the testing
Heimdall, dont allow your bias to cloud your judgement. I made that post because anything else I can add has been said 47 times already. Just get rid of the things to settle this once and for all.
The Tene users will claim end game pvp will die but we all know end game pvp will do quite well, just THIER version of PvP will die and that is something most of the player base seems to accept.
Dev's... proceed with the chop.
Edit: oh i see why your defensive Heimdall, you moved all your Tene's to your GF
WTFProned
sucks to be you /cackle
Once they are nerfed I couldnt agree more, however as it stands now, Tene is BIS for pvp hands down. There is a reason so many tene builds have emerged over time... While the game is very young, its also not that complicated and most of what is possible has been tried.
part of the key to knowing that? People are using lvl 45 blue gear because of regen stats, People are using blue belts/rings/necks because of those stats. People are using Blue helms/feet/gloves. People are using random pieces that I would wager were not intended to be BIS items, that are now BIS items in pvp....
Im not saying there cant be more evolved builds that work well without tene, I know builds that work wel lwithout tene, im saying that for most classes the best build revolves around tene.
GF/GWF/TR are easy examples of this, I dont know CWs that well but I do regard Lantiss as one of the best CWs in game and considering he used them effectively, and could have easily used R9s+ but didnt, id wager the build was top notch, and probably why you yourself are running teneb enchants as well. If it WERENT that OP, then you probably wouldnt be running it.
Our CW does extremely well in PVP without tenebs, so maybe for CWs (again I dont know the class well) there ARE true alternatives. I play a TR and I think my build works WELL but not as well as teneb builds. GF builds can work WELL but not as good, GWF - well thats an easy story.
Point is:
If you truly believe what you say, then the tene nerf would NOT be a big deal since you would further develop these "no tene" builds...
I honestly cant believe its even a discussion, that people are trying to argue it SHOULD ignore everything. It defies all logic, everyone knew it was broken, and NOT working as intended in the first place. Most users even said, "its just a matter of time before they fix this broken enchant.
Are greater tene users all of a sudden going to be terrible? No..the good ones will continue to be good. However, being like minded PvP'rs at the top level, there is NO way you can deny how incredibly unfair and cheap Tenes are/were, in the hands of a SKILLED, well built player. More so TR's.
What do you mean Alysin?
LS, EoA, Silent Blade and many others of the top PvP guilds. Have all said it before. WE LIKE COMPETITION.
That being said. Please explain to me how a Perma Stealth TR using 7 Greater Tenes bursting down BiS skilled players with Path of Blades and CoS all the while being completely unseen is using any sort of skill, or allowing for any sort of competitive nature? Yes it takes skill and battle awareness to be able to stay actually perma stealthed. I'm not denying that. But ONLY because of Stacking these enchants, are they able to do this. This isn't skill guys. This isn't competitive. It is cheap, and unfair.
You can twist my words anyway you like them, no matter how you look at it. That particular scenario involves no skill whatsoever. Tenes do there unintended job very well. They are broken, and that is why people like them, and that is why they are the most sought after enchant. Because they do something nothing else can.
Do I think End Game PvP is going to change for some people? Absolutely. Do I think bad players are all of a sudden going to be good? Of course not. Good players will continue to be good, because that is what they do. Adapt and over come and find something else that works.
I'm going to use K the TR from LS as a basis of personal comparison.
From the fights I had with him. He won the majority of times. Off the top of my head I would guess I was roughly 30% against him 1 vs 1. Of our 12 or so fights, neither of us were perfect by any measure against each other. I would say we were very well matched as far as skill goes and I would be very surprised if he disagreed. That being said, the times he did win, he was more often then not at Soulforge proc, or at the very least under 30%.
I'm not saying he ONLY beat me because of the Tenebrous. It was however a very large factor in our fights together, only a fool would say otherwise. He was skilled at using the right abilities, he was skilled at staying in stealth, he was skilled at knowing when to back off and regen etc etc, what he was not skilled in...is the Tenes themselves. They simply just work, and work unintended. It IS going to be a very different fight when him and I meet again. Am I saying that I'm going to all of a sudden stomp him into a ragequit? No. But I would bet my account its going to be much more like 50/50 then our previous 30/70.
I never complained about the Tenebrous enchants in the past, in any form, ever. So please don't act like I'm some yeeeaaah lets nerf tene advocate. I simply am happy for the change, BECAUSE
> I <
feel Tenebrous enchants the way they are NOT competitive.
We already have enough flames in this ridiculous thread so if flames is all you got then don't respond to me, I'm done arguing with people over something this silly. If you've got something legitimate to say about what I said then please feel free.
Cheers!
Soooo...you basically say he killed you more because of :
1- Luck ( The soulforged proc)
2- Tenerbrous ( no matter how much you twist it around, you did say he won because of it )
Conclusion:
a Player who doesn;t use tenebrous is more skilled than a player who does :O
Well by that logic, i would say that anyone who isn't using greater SF and greater Vorpal rank 7 enchants is also more skilled than the one who uses them right? :cool:
We may not have agreed about things in the past, but I agree with everything you just said. Very well put, and while I have and AM an advocate of the nerf, I think and hope the nerf will bring about more competitive pvp and I think its a necessary change for this game.
My only beef with the enchant is that its still going to be VERY bad in PVE and I would love to see some alternative to make it MORE balanced, just different than stack stacking.
Having enchants like tenebrous create a divide between pvp and pve that I would love to see closed. I have an entirely different set for PVE because tenebrous are so bad...
There are alot of ways to change the enchant that would not make it game breaking and could potentially be very fun! I mean something as simple as "Hits deal 3% of weapon damage as necrotic damage" would be cool, Much like the terror enchant does. This would STILL be a very good enchant.
Or if Tenebrous just gave FLAT % boosts, 2% crit or 2% arp on greaters and 1% on normals with a vendor for lessers at 100k AD each.
OR even enchants that give + ability points, like a vendor that sells +1Con and +1 Dex enchant for sale via tenebrous you could then choose between +str/+dex roll enchants etc....
OR just rework how tenebrous damage is done, should be calculated on base HP instead of total, Cd reduced, able to proc on multiple enemies, etc...
The current proposition fixes the PVP issue, but still makes the enchants worthless for PVE, it would be NICE (IMO) to have that divide reduced or gone completely....
I am saying that because of how lethal Tenebrous are in a Perma Stealth build, even though I personally feel that we are of the same caliber of player, he had an advantage over me, that wasn't because of skill, it was because of the way Tenebrous work.
You can blow up and highlight any text of mine you want, I made it very clear saying I feel him and I are on the same level, and even after the change, it will be a coin toss, or a matter of whose ping is better that day when we face each other 1 vs 1.
You must have missed the part when I said if you want to flame don't bother.
Explain to me how you feel that Tenebrous enchants are even remotely competitive at all, when nothing is able to stop them.
hmm..where did i flame? unless disagreeing with you= flame.
I just wanted to highlight how you said that you both are same level of skill..and then you went 180 degree change and said " but he won cuz of tene and SF ". It sounded more like an excuse more than a justification.
If you want to prove something, put numbers or videos of you fighting him. "Feelings" doesn't prove anything on interwebz.
Most of you know Blacksheep TR from Enemy Team (used to be TSB). He posted a pre nerf Lurkers video that alot of people watched, where he was NOT using tene and blowing people up in pvp.
Then he switched to Tene, and made a new video. Here is a quote he made about his Current TR with Tenebrous versus his old TR without,
"Actually im 10x more stronger than on the video.
The Blacksheep from now days would kill the Blacksheep from video over and over again."
So to say it again, his tenebrous Build is 10x more stronger than his old build without tenebrous. Thats his view about the build and the enchant.
Now I dont know about 10x stronger, but stronger? clearly.
Alysin your post highlights this as well.
If they will be affected by DR, then would their damage be affected by armor pen and mitigation debuffs? I.E if i have 20% armor pen and 3% mitigation debuff, and my opponent has 40% DR...will i ignore 40-23 = 17% of his DRs...leaving him with only 17% DR against my tene?
From the way they interact with barkshield, it means they will interact with DR/Deflect the same way as 7x individual procs?
But lets speculate, more fun that way.
Besides, you can't just expect people to be nice when you provoke and throw empty accusation at them don't you think?
and why should I pay attention to what you say? unlike you I contributed to this thread when it was created and I've been sharing information since then, heck in general I always share information regarding game mechanics, you and MANY others never created any threads demanding nerfs to tenes, but now all of a sudden you just jump on the band wagon like you knew it all along.
You don't even know how they work, what 50/50 guessing games they create, that's why I listen to ayroux and others that HAVE tenes and are against it, these "rebalance" threads (remind you this thread was created by LS guild leader to help people combat tenes, oh the irony) were created after PTR event, they came from participants, so yeah i feel i have a say when i was there with them.
Yeah I have to say Lantiss is pretty "**** friendly" in that hes pretty open about builds enchants and what not, even offering advice to people AND offering to stream (while he was playing more actively).
Its really sad people want to come in here and bash/flame about the tene nerf. What I find amusing is that people dont take the time to figure out exactly who is talking about what to even see if their opinion should be considered valid or not.
So many times that I posted about tenes, it was met with massive flame first accusing me of being some **** who lost in pvp and now came to QQ on the forums.
Ive had tenes for longer than probably most people in this game that still play....
Lantiss is another one of those, and id say that out of all the people that play this game, his perspective and opinion SHOULD definitely warrant some weight because of his pretty extensive knowledge of the game and experience.
Now, Im pretty sure Lantiss and I have disagreed on many things since this games inception, but that doesnt mean we cant respect eachothers opinions.
I agree that we should be able to be civil about all this, sometimes issues get heated especially when people try and brag on a nerf forum, and people post stupid stuff, so lets just all move on and get to the issue at hand...
Tenebrous feedback to the DEVS.
it seems like any new thread about it gets moved in here and unfortunately now its so many pages of text, the DEVs probably wont read this.
single enchant? this is the MAIN reason this enchant is considered so strong, because back then people overlooked it, before people understood how cryptic trolls us with gear scores and diminishing returns, anything that is "greater" wasn't considered so good. mind you greater plague fire was better than vorpal, not because of its amazing stats, but because it stacked. where do you see any plague fire threads? you don't, because it was "fixed" (they broke it) in time, but people still bought vorpal and dark 10s, because hey if it goes up to 10 it means its better right? who the hell knew about DR caps and all the hidden stacking stats back then.
I assure you if we go back 4 months ago and people knowing about this enchant, we will either have everyone use it or removed from the game by now, it would be considered just a standard pvp enchant.