Regular enchant prices are only going down, especially with fey blessings, so more and more people will be wearing 8's and 9's and Tene's will get noticeably less and less strong as you upgrade those enchants + weapon/armor enchants.
Lol b/c of the fey blessing I just put R7 Azure's in my utility slots and kept the same lvl 25 helm, gloves, and boots all the way to 60 on my new TR.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Ok first of all GF is the class that MOST benefits from tene's as offensive stats are hard to come by on their gear, 2nd of all the difference between critting once and critting twice on your prone rotation is the difference between getting a kill and not getting one.
2 crits during a rotation with perfect vorpal pretty much seals the kill on a CW/TR and with another character backing you a DC as well. Not to mention if you throw in knight's challenge (which obviously doesn't boost tene damage) you would annihilate almost anyone with 2 crits /w a perfect vorpal.
So lets match up 2 GF's 1 with and 1 without. If the non-tene user gets his juggle off first it's absolute light's out for tene user b/c even if he does get some hits off after that his tene's will do ~33% of what they would have done.
If tene user gets off first rotation he also brings the other GF very low, however now his damage is reduced and the non-tene user still has a chance to bring him down low, and then kite while his skills come off CD and the tene users damage will then be ~33% of what it was on his next attack.
Also to have that high base crit you would be using scimi/crusher which is pretty bad IMO, at most your base crit should be around 532 (133 from accessories x 4) which would have less of a diminishing returns effect on the azure's.
Where tene's shine for GF is on super tank builds. My GF (who isn't geared anymore b/c I geared my CW instead =/) had 50.5% DR, 30.5% deflect, 35k HP, and 1250 regen with 4 tene's. I had 0 crit and ArP, however with 4 tene's it gave me enough burst to be very helpful against squishy targets. With the full DPS build you are almost certainly better off with R9-10.
Lol also take into consideration how often you have full HP when starting your rotation, if the other team has a CW the answer is almost never.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Ok first of all GF is the class that MOST benefits from tene's as offensive stats are hard to come by on their gear, 2nd of all the difference between critting once and critting twice on your prone rotation is the difference between getting a kill and not getting one.
If offensive stats are hard to come by, that makes stat enchants of more value since they are lower in the Dim return scale by comparison. Also GFs can only get 6 GTE where as GWF can have 7 and STILL have 37k+ HP, on a GF having 6 GTE means youll be sitting around 32k-33k HP. And I agree critting twice per rotation gets the kill, but like I said thats only every THIRD roration, so what about the other 2? You dont get the kill versus Tenes, That damage easily makes up for the crit and then some if decent HP or double procs.
2 crits during a rotation with perfect vorpal pretty much seals the kill on a CW/TR and with another character backing you a DC as well. Not to mention if you throw in knight's challenge (which obviously doesn't boost tene damage) you would annihilate almost anyone with 2 crits /w a perfect vorpal.
I agree with this completely, but so does a full tene proc of 5400+ damage and a full NON crit encounter rotation...Almost noone uses KC in pre vs pre because the real utility of it is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, the CD is way too long to warrant swapping it for a prone, not to mention you get damage boost when crushing pin is applied AND trample as well...
So lets match up 2 GF's 1 with and 1 without. If the non-tene user gets his juggle off first it's absolute light's out for tene user b/c even if he does get some hits off after that his tene's will do ~33% of what they would have done.
Thats a pretty big IF bro.. not to mention Tenebs absolutely SHRED sheilds so 90% of the time a teneb > a non teneb for opener. Ontop of that, GF vs GF battles are VERY rare. Ontop of that 33% damage is STILL about 2k damage, if a GF is at 50% DR your getting 3-3.5k encounters, critting means 6k, so 2.5k? Roughly the same... And 33% HP? Thats assuming then a daily is used because just 3 encounters wont bring a 32k GF with 50% DR to 33% that math doesnt add up unless you can tell me how you just did 42-43k damage? to do an effective 21k damage to my character....
If tene user gets off first rotation he also brings the other GF very low, however now his damage is reduced and the non-tene user still has a chance to bring him down low, and then kite while his skills come off CD and the tene users damage will then be ~33% of what it was on his next attack.
Ok so this happens 90% of the time with equally skilled GFs, How is his damage reduced if the tene user brings the OTHER gf down? Makes no sense... He still can spit out very powerful encounters... Your forgetting the fact that most of the time atleast 1 encounter is on CD because it was blown on a block
Also to have that high base crit you would be using scimi/crusher which is pretty bad IMO, at most your base crit should be around 532 (133 from accessories x 4) which would have less of a diminishing returns effect on the azure's.
What? I did all this math on my CURRENT Gf whose using formorian weapons with NO +crit.... +243 on belt +133 on two rings, +154 on neck, and +250 boon = 913 BAM L2 Math
Where tene's shine for GF is on super tank builds. My GF (who isn't geared anymore b/c I geared my CW instead =/) had 50.5% DR, 30.5% deflect, 35k HP, and 1250 regen with 4 tene's. I had 0 crit and ArP, however with 4 tene's it gave me enough burst to be very helpful against squishy targets. With the full DPS build you are almost certainly better off with R9-10.
You basically stated something obviously true, tenes are better on tank builds, correct... Then just throw out better off with R9-R10 with NO support... Should I just accept this on faith of the all mighty Cribstaxx?
Lol also take into consideration how often you have full HP when starting your rotation, if the other team has a CW the answer is almost never. LOL id say atleast 75% of my rotations are full hp. Noone focuses a GF in pre vs pre with 5 ppl on point and if they do, LOL! Because that means OUR CW and TR just 1 shot you, see MY TR VID for an example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Nq7uJSe1k)
I just assumed you would have deflect as you're lacking it on your gear. You also must have somewhat low HP having all blue accessories, probably ~30k? And again with your feats you have around 47-48% DR I would assume? Negligible deflect if any lol. So given these stats 42k worth of raw damage would bring you to ~600 HP, that is with only dex + 5% ArP from accessories. Therefore assuming 2 crits from your rotation of bull charge, lunging, frontline, and daily with perfect vorpal you would easily get 42k, especially when adding at wills while prone.
The difference between 14.4% and 23.6% is bigger than the a simple 10%, the chance of you doing a full rotation with no crits is pretty high at 14.4%, while the chance of you getting 2 crits with 23.6% is pretty decent. When you add in perfect vorpal you will more often get kills in 1 rotation than if you were using Tene's.
Obviously on a GF that has 0 ArP and 0 Crit regular enchants would make more of a % increase, but because of my already low stats going from 8% crit to 18% isn't a big deal, especially since I didn't run a vorpal because my crit is so low, and even 18% is too low to run vorpal.
Why would you run the DPS build with tene's lol? You are seriously better off with stats running with what you do. Tene's are great on a super tanky build but your's is the one GF build where Tene's are pretty mediocre. You need defenses and high HP to make them worthwhile.
Also the comment about shield getting eaten up by tene's: yep you got me there, my shield just ate your entire burst now I'm so screwed lol... Then by the time your tene's are up again you are at 1/2 or less HP b/c the non tene build puts out more raw damage. Not to mention if you are experienced you can just save your block for the next round of tene's in ~18-20 seconds.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I just assumed you would have deflect as you're lacking it on your gear. You also must have somewhat low HP having all blue accessories, probably ~30k? And again with your feats you have around 47-48% DR I would assume? Negligible deflect if any lol. So given these stats 42k worth of raw damage would bring you to ~600 HP, that is with only dex + 5% ArP from accessories. Therefore assuming 2 crits from your rotation of bull charge, lunging, frontline, and daily with perfect vorpal you would easily get 42k, especially when adding at wills while prone.
Im starting to think your not serious and your just trolling, see my posts above, I have 32k HP because I went 24con 24dex instead of 26 con which would put me over 33k. I have 15.6% deflect and DR of about 48% So given these stats (which how are you deflecting anyways, 42k worth of damage (.52) = 21840 damage net of my 32k hp = 10k HP left, NOT counting deflect OR block, now ARP may factor in but so will my deflect.
Ontop of that lets look at what it takes to get RAW 42k damage. On a training dummy here are GF encounters:
Lunge - 4000
Bull Rush - 4300
Frontline - 3.7k
Daily Indom - 6200 TOTAL
So total of those with no crits: 18200 RAW damage, youd have to have ALL of those crit WITH perf vorp to get 42k RAW damage.... Otherwise at just two crits your not even close and only gonna do about 2/3rds HP and thats if I dont deflect 1.
The difference between 14.4% and 23.6% is bigger than the a simple 10%, the chance of you doing a full rotation with no crits is pretty high at 14.4%,
Whats a full rotation to you? 3 encounters? 4? Because 3 encounters @ 14.4% = 43.2% chance that 1 will crit. So close to half my 3 encounter rotation that Ill get 1 crit, which eacn encounter rotation I also get about 5k necro damage from Tenebs, I dont really need to crit then to kill...
while the chance of you getting 2 crits with 23.6% is pretty decent. When you add in perfect vorpal you will more often get kills in 1 rotation than if you were using Tene's.
23.6% in 3 encounters = ~55.4% (chance to have 1 crit so pretty high, and on a ZERO DR target (Dummy) a Bull Rush hits for 4300 meaning itll crit with vorpal for 9675 RAW damage versus 7525 RAW damage without P. vorpal, take your DR numbers of conservative 20% and your talking about a 1700 difference in damage on rotation NET with Vorpal, not a big deal.
But you say TWO crits! well thats a 28% chance on each rotation to get TWO crits, which would be nice but I wouldnt say its "pretty decent". Your ALSO forgetting the MAJOR possibility of getting ZERO crits, which happens about 4/10 times (44.5%) when you run the math, so breakdown
55.4% chance for 1 crit
41% chance for 2 crits
44.5% chance for no crits on average.
So its MORE probably to get NO crits than getting TWO crits off each encounter rotation.
Obviously on a GF that has 0 ArP and 0 Crit regular enchants would make more of a % increase, but because of my already low stats going from 8% crit to 18% isn't a big deal, especially since I didn't run a vorpal because my crit is so low, and even 18% is too low to run vorpal.
I agree, but your also forgetting Dex gives ARP. I have 24/25 Dex meaning 14-15% arp equiv. Its also easy to run 2pc 2pc and get another 950 arp putting you at a very nice amount even before rings/neck/belt....Also, I could get over 23% crit on my GF... And you basically proved my point that its not a big deal to run P Vorp on a GF versus Tenes even with 23% + crit.
Why would you run the DPS build with tene's lol? You are seriously better off with stats running with what you do. Tene's are great on a super tanky build but your's is the one GF build where Tene's are pretty mediocre. You need defenses and high HP to make them worthwhile.
I thought this way at first too until I was theory crafting and asking Steroidz GF (from LS) his GF philosophy and I have to agree with it hence why I switched. This youll have to figure out yourself and most of it has to do with playstyle. Ill just say I ran a 1700 regen ultra tanky build with less tenes and its WAY less effective in pvp.
Also the comment about shield getting eaten up by tene's: yep you got me there, my shield just ate your entire burst now I'm so screwed lol... Then by the time your tene's are up again you are at 1/2 or less HP b/c the non tene build puts out more raw damage. Not to mention if you are experienced you can just save your block for the next round of tene's in ~18-20 seconds. Again are you trolling or just dont know? I can poke you OVER my shield, eat your shield with my tenes ALL WHILE BLOCKING, and BAM you have NO block and Im still at over 80% block... What are you gonna do when I prone you over and over? And btw... I already showed an average proc time of 12s on Tenebs I can keep you prone for over 12 seconds and thats assuming average NOT the back to back 3 second procs you CAN get. All of this BTW, is me at full HP. So even IF and thats a BIG IF you can get encounters on me after that, itll just mean a level playing field except wait! Now my tenes are back up to shred your shield again and give me advantage...
Not to mention GF vs GF 1v1s are pointless because they almost NEVER happen live games... If GFs were supposed to be back cappers, id run a more tanky regen build like I had before, but a Sent GWf can backcap much better so... what the GFs role? Not backcap and its really easy to 1v1 punt a gwf over and over with 32k HP 1200 regen block and tons of prones.
That's why you have so many of them right? when you say "people realized" do you mean the same people that realized that its possible to regen without elixirs? man ill tell you what, go back through the class forums and lookup when the current meta builds surfaced up, then match them to any high profile premade that attracted alot of forum replies and tell me what was posted first.
It's easy to pretend you know everything but up untill last PTR no one was using boulder spec on a CW, literally one guy was using it and he didn't publish it. people level up only when they meet greater challenge, that's when they push themselves and try and innovate.
it took me 2 secs to dig up an old post by ayroux, now compare the date:
not to put ayroux on the spot, just giving an example of someone who adapted the build very well and caught my attention when he made the pvp video.
The first thing I did when I hit 60 was put tenebrous enchants in my slots. But then I decided that I also wanted to run dungeons and didn't have the AD back then to keep two sets of gear, so I ripped out the tenes and replaced them with darks. For a CW who was running with rather low HP I obviously didn't feel any pain by the switch.
People were already saying one week into the game just how ridiculous the tenebrous enchants were especially considering how they scaled with HP. These threads surfaced long before any of your precious lemonade stand guides or posts. It's amazing how full of yourselves you are.
When you talk about the "boulder spec" are you referring to pvp or pve? Of course avalanche wasn't used much in pve because everyone wanted singularity bots. In pvp I knew several people that used avalanche. Avalanche has always been effective in premades when used correctly but in pug matches it's easier to use other powers and have a faster kill time.
I can say that I was definitely one of the first CWs to use Icy Rays in pvp (because I rarely saw any others using it back then), but I'm sure you'll go on to claim that some LS CW pioneered it's usage too.
People were already saying one week into the game just how ridiculous the tenebrous enchants were especially considering how they scaled with HP.
Lol, more bs, 1 week into the game? Try 1 month AT THE LEAST. If there was anyone who was thinking about Tenebrouses the way people think about them now, only 1 week into the game, it was definitely not the general population.
In pvp I knew several people that used avalanche. Avalanche has always been effective in premades when used correctly but in pug matches it's easier to use other powers and have a faster kill time.
Who are you trying to kid here? Noone EVER ran a spec like that in pvp. PERIOD. I have been pvp'n everyday since the game started and there were no CWs running anything close to it until months into the game. And it was ONE guy, who showed it only to a handful of people and subsequently quit the game.
Why do you think after we beat people on the PTR recently, multiple people from our matches were asking Lantis about boulder and saying how they didnt even think it could be used so effectively in pvp like that? What, so all the top pvp guilds from every server until very recently, didnt know about the boulder build, arguably the best CW build if used well, but you're claiming you know people that have been using it all along? Please get out of here.
Guild: Lemonade Stand | Server: Dragon (Original) | PvP Forever | 1og0s * TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
Who are you trying to kid here? Noone EVER ran a spec like that in pvp. PERIOD. I have been pvp'n everyday since the game started and there were no CWs running anything close to it until months into the game. And it was ONE guy, who showed it only to a handful of people and subsequently quit the game.
im sorry but, how can you say with such certainty was just one cw ?
yup, tene's are way underpowered. They don't do any damage. No idea why all the top pvper's used them because they were so gimped. And to think they were going for 3.8 million a pop. If anything they should buff them. They should do 10% of your health every 5 seconds no matter what your health is.
Not to mention GF vs GF 1v1s are pointless because they almost NEVER happen live games... If GFs were supposed to be back cappers, id run a more tanky regen build like I had before, but a Sent GWf can backcap much better so... what the GFs role? Not backcap and its really easy to 1v1 punt a gwf over and over with 32k HP 1200 regen block and tons of prones.
Enjoy bro
Yes I do back cap sometimes, my GF is 10 times better than GWF for backcapping as I can consistently keep the enemy off point and never die in 1v1. Yes I have less mobility but that is why GWF goes to back point first and then when I have the chance we switch out.
Your crit chance does not equal 14.4 * 3, it is simply 14.4% every single attack, which is a big difference from 23.6% on every attack. You could fail to crit 10 times in a row easily with 14.4, but with 23.6 the chances of that are quite low, and much much higher that you will get multiple crits in a rotation than 14.4.
If your abilities truly do that little damage then you should probably figure out whats wrong, when I had DPS gear on my GF I crit for 10-12k on all 3 of those abilities with NO vorpal at all. I think the reason is you are not proning the dummies and therefore losing 25% damage. Add 25% damage, 50% crit severity, and at the very least 15-20% ArP (counting dex) to that equation and it's lights out in 1 rotation.
Lol apparently you haven't tried the full tanky build if you think it isn't effective. I have never died 1v1, not even come close, all those stats I mentioned + holy avenger and negation enchants are just too much defense + high regen. VS. a GWF the GWF is completely negated. VS. TR/CW I will be able to kill them over time as they cannot kill me. VS. GF it is generally a stalemate unless they don't have ~1200 regen which most do. The only thing that got me, as you can see in the video's vs. lemonade, is that Gctrl went to my point and we didn't switch out for our DC, we won't make that strategy error again =P
You should join in the PvP Ranking Tournament this Saturday, with every match being recorded and lots of guilds participating we can really see which builds are most effective.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I wouldn't consider GFs better than GWF with capping. I would rather say they are equally good.
It is rather easy to dodge the GFs prones if you frequently move behind them, also GWF's CC resistance gives them an edge there.
i think they are equally good. GWF is easily countered by GF because they can throw the GWF all time without engaging in a death fight.
but then GF i think does more poorly against a rogue because of the mobility
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
i think they are equally good. GWF is easily countered by GF because they can throw the GWF all time without engaging in a death fight.
but then GF i think does more poorly against a rogue because of the mobility
Well a GWF doesnt have a "hard counter" except a good GF who can pick up points via prones but most likely wont kill eachother, a GF cant do well on average against a good TR... So thats a pretty hard counter to the class....
The other aspect is a GF has almost zero chance 2v1 where as its easier for a GWF to 2v1 because of unstoppable.
Not saying that in high lvl pvp a GWF can 2v1 easily, just that because of unstoppable and mobility, the GWF will last longer and fair better on average compared to a GF who literally has no chance against even two decent players.
Cribstaxx,
"Your crit chance does not equal 14.4 * 3, it is simply 14.4% every single attack," - precisely, so when you run the statistics (do you know how to do the math?) it comes out to the math previously quoted.
I can crit for 10-12k on encounters but it takes quite a bit of debuffs from a CW or a GWF to do that type of damage, people have the bad habit of remembering the big numbers and not paying attention to the average small numbers, go 1v1 a GWF and tell me how hard your bull rush hits or even crits for, I think youll be disappointed on AVERAGE numbers, not the best crit you can muster, but the average crit. Ive tried many sets of gear I have a power stacking PVE set and the numbers still arent that far off. The only times I used to be able to HIT for 6-7k on AVERAGE and crit for 12k-14k without vorpal was with the pre nerf stalwarts set where I have about 11k power + 6 GTE, that was a stupid OP build.
You also need to remember ARP doesnt go negatives so that has not alot of bearing on your 1v1 ability only debuffs do, and anyway you slice it, against a tanky DC/GF or GWF you wont be close to negatives without help. Also if you think a GF is stronger than GWF you havnt gone up against our GWF with Briartwine where even if your constantly prone him, his 7 GTE will still hit you... Its pretty hard to beat even with 1600 regen. Not saying it cant happen but at best youll tie and on average hell still kill you.
The full tanky build is effective at SOME things but not AS effective in group play. The role of a GF isnt to backcap, its to prone/dps targets at the same time. Typically the GF holds mid and sometimes rotates home point. I wont get into this lets just say that Steroidz and I share the same philosophy here... So if you wanna talk to someone more about it, hit him up if he still plays, I used to share the philosophy of tanky GF since that is how I played GWF, however the damage loss does add up and you want to be able to slice through CW/TRs easy at mid.
We might be there saturday, it gets tricky because of all the time zones and life commitments we have in our guild. But it would be nice to play everyone
We might be there saturday, it gets tricky because of all the time zones and life commitments we have in our guild. But it would be nice to play everyone
Cool! Hey I know we disagree on things but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy a PvP match now and again, even just for fun not some kind of ranking thing.
Playing against pugs, even when we only Q with 2-3 people is just no fun. Premade matches are always a blast, hope to see you there!
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I know right... i just stole a page out of your playbook. Oh and sorry for calling you 16 (even though you act it). I got you confused with Lord Steroidz.
I would like more of an update from devs as to what they are doing about Tennes and if they go through with this then those who have them slotted are able to remove them for free.
2mill to remove 7 is disgusting considering how long they have been in the game working as they are.
So they go through ITC and soulforged as well!!!! Was it not enough that they ignore resistance completely! that there is absolutely no protection???
So just stack tenes and u won't have to worry about anything anywhere,,,, not even Astral shield!! This is broken
And u say guide on dealing with Tenes, stack HP? Are u serious? You are restricting our gameplay to some one thing that is OP? Like we have no other kind of opponents, cause FYI, not everyone can afford Tenes if u haven't noticed it!
This is just broken and you need to fix it.
- make them unable to pass through dodges and soulforged
- necrotic damage can still pass through defenses
- limit stacking to 3 enchants (9% total hp is enough, a tank build can still have a 3k damage added every 20 seconds. Which, for me, is fair)
- give the chance to remove enchants for free 1 time from players gear to let people adjust their builds without spending a ton of ADs
- give the chance to salvage tenes for the price they were sold in AH before the nerf announcement
I think it would be fair, would still make tenes useful for tank builds but not at the point of making them full tanks with the ability to burst damage with 7k necrotic damage every 20 seconds (on a high HP sentinel: 3%x6-7= 18-21%; 34-37k hp--->6120-7770 damage).
If you look for a normal build that can dish out some damage AND tank, on a GWF, you've to sacrifice regeneration and defense. To get critical and power/ ArP stats to a good point to deal damage, you can't use titan/IS+ titan sword exc..., you've to balance.
This means that after such a nerf, a full tank build with stacked regen/def/deflection/ hp would deal a lot less damage, even with 3 tenes stacked, and would not be able to outdamage the other builds with his 7k burst damage from tenes. On the other side, a tank willing to go for critical to deal damage, would be forced to sacrifice a part of his tankyness.
As it's supposed to be.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Just convert them into weapon enchants that are exclusive with other OP weapon enchants... and allow merging into Perfect. Also remove them automatically from chars and put them into inventory. Obviously this would need some tweaking to make sure the Perfect version is powerful enough to compete with things such as a P. Vorpal.
Thing is, such a powerful enchant as GTEs should never, ever stack like they do now.
Alternatively, leave them alone as they are and create those PvP ladders already, so people that have GTEs play against other people with GTEs in the end, since I'm sure the guys that have them will band together to maximize their win chances.
Although this is not so good of a solution. Best is that the PvP gear should be relatively easy to get without the need to put any real money into the game, by doing PvP. As soon as real money contaminate the PvP scene and there are items out there with prohibitive prices for a large part of the population, it all goes downhill. Skills should be 75% of success, gear 25%.
The WoW PvP model is best in my opinion. In 1 month of focused PvP, you could get BiS gear and play on equal footing with the best out there, and only skills made the difference.
Now how many months of insane CN farming would I need to equip 7 GTEs and BiS gear in NWO? I doubt that in the present state of the game I can do it in 6 months.
So they go through ITC and soulforged as well!!!! Was it not enough that they ignore resistance completely! that there is absolutely no protection???
So just stack tenes and u won't have to worry about anything anywhere,,,, not even Astral shield!! This is broken
And u say guide on dealing with Tenes, stack HP? Are u serious? You are restricting our gameplay to some one thing that is OP? Like we have no other kind of opponents, cause FYI, not everyone can afford Tenes if u haven't noticed it!
This is just broken and you need to fix it.
and then we have to fix them because some people cant afford them? brilliant lol.
Dovahkiin Gannicus, GWF Sentinel- Enemy Team Guild
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I havnt tested this yet, but I dont think ALL necrotic damage bypasses ALL defense.
I hit a DC in AS the other day with perf terror and its SUPPOSED to do about 80 damage depending on weapon hit,
It did like 40 damage.... I have alot of ARP so on most targets they dont have much left maybe 15% DR, however in AS my "necrotic" damage did a fraction of what it was supposed to.
Two theories:
1) Necrotic damage only gets mitigated by CERTAIN defensive abilities like AS.
2) Necrotic damage is mitigated by ALL defensive stats, most of the time GWF with max con has more than enough arp to cancel out TR/CW defenses but it would be niticable on a higher DR target like another GWF.
Can anyone confirm/deny via FOOTAGE that necro damage bypasses ALL DR
Terror/Lifedrinker are two off the top of my head outside of tenebs.
I havnt tested this yet, but I dont think ALL necrotic damage bypasses ALL defense.
I hit a DC in AS the other day with perf terror and its SUPPOSED to do about 80 damage depending on weapon hit,
It did like 40 damage.... I have alot of ARP so on most targets they dont have much left maybe 15% DR, however in AS my "necrotic" damage did a fraction of what it was supposed to.
Two theories:
1) Necrotic damage only gets mitigated by CERTAIN defensive abilities like AS.
2) Necrotic damage is mitigated by ALL defensive stats, most of the time GWF with max con has more than enough arp to cancel out TR/CW defenses but it would be niticable on a higher DR target like another GWF.
Can anyone confirm/deny via FOOTAGE that necro damage bypasses ALL DR
Terror/Lifedrinker are two off the top of my head outside of tenebs.
Lifedrinker is definitely affected by DR, I read my combat log last night, and lifedrinker did about 25(7x) dmg to me which is about right since it probably proc when i had a 50% determination bar unstoppable.
On the idea of barkshield can counter tene, that is simply not true. A simple dot on you will completely consume your barkshield charges, thus you can only HOPE to be able to absort tene when it proc. Statisticly speaking, the chance of barkshield charge matching a tene proc is really low as there are so many dots could be applied on you (thus so many dot procs vs 1 tene proc), except for maybe the first hit; that is also a big maybe since if that cw with no tene ranged you, all your barkshield charges are gone, then the non range attker such as a gf with bull charge / or gwf hits you just a split sec later, you will not have any barkshield charges left to 'counter' tene (i guess this can also be a strategy in some teams with tene for sure). In s longer fight, any DOT on you will almost certainly 'waste' your barkshield, thus allow tene to do its full dmg.
This is the experience i had last night against 2 gwf with tene, i have not seen my barkshield abosrded ANY of their tene proc. So I dont know why people say barkshield is the counter for tene.
Comments
Lol b/c of the fey blessing I just put R7 Azure's in my utility slots and kept the same lvl 25 helm, gloves, and boots all the way to 60 on my new TR.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
2 crits during a rotation with perfect vorpal pretty much seals the kill on a CW/TR and with another character backing you a DC as well. Not to mention if you throw in knight's challenge (which obviously doesn't boost tene damage) you would annihilate almost anyone with 2 crits /w a perfect vorpal.
So lets match up 2 GF's 1 with and 1 without. If the non-tene user gets his juggle off first it's absolute light's out for tene user b/c even if he does get some hits off after that his tene's will do ~33% of what they would have done.
If tene user gets off first rotation he also brings the other GF very low, however now his damage is reduced and the non-tene user still has a chance to bring him down low, and then kite while his skills come off CD and the tene users damage will then be ~33% of what it was on his next attack.
Also to have that high base crit you would be using scimi/crusher which is pretty bad IMO, at most your base crit should be around 532 (133 from accessories x 4) which would have less of a diminishing returns effect on the azure's.
Where tene's shine for GF is on super tank builds. My GF (who isn't geared anymore b/c I geared my CW instead =/) had 50.5% DR, 30.5% deflect, 35k HP, and 1250 regen with 4 tene's. I had 0 crit and ArP, however with 4 tene's it gave me enough burst to be very helpful against squishy targets. With the full DPS build you are almost certainly better off with R9-10.
Lol also take into consideration how often you have full HP when starting your rotation, if the other team has a CW the answer is almost never.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Comments in green posted above. :P
The difference between 14.4% and 23.6% is bigger than the a simple 10%, the chance of you doing a full rotation with no crits is pretty high at 14.4%, while the chance of you getting 2 crits with 23.6% is pretty decent. When you add in perfect vorpal you will more often get kills in 1 rotation than if you were using Tene's.
Obviously on a GF that has 0 ArP and 0 Crit regular enchants would make more of a % increase, but because of my already low stats going from 8% crit to 18% isn't a big deal, especially since I didn't run a vorpal because my crit is so low, and even 18% is too low to run vorpal.
Why would you run the DPS build with tene's lol? You are seriously better off with stats running with what you do. Tene's are great on a super tanky build but your's is the one GF build where Tene's are pretty mediocre. You need defenses and high HP to make them worthwhile.
Also the comment about shield getting eaten up by tene's: yep you got me there, my shield just ate your entire burst now I'm so screwed lol... Then by the time your tene's are up again you are at 1/2 or less HP b/c the non tene build puts out more raw damage. Not to mention if you are experienced you can just save your block for the next round of tene's in ~18-20 seconds.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Not to mention GF vs GF 1v1s are pointless because they almost NEVER happen live games... If GFs were supposed to be back cappers, id run a more tanky regen build like I had before, but a Sent GWf can backcap much better so... what the GFs role? Not backcap and its really easy to 1v1 punt a gwf over and over with 32k HP 1200 regen block and tons of prones.
Enjoy bro
The first thing I did when I hit 60 was put tenebrous enchants in my slots. But then I decided that I also wanted to run dungeons and didn't have the AD back then to keep two sets of gear, so I ripped out the tenes and replaced them with darks. For a CW who was running with rather low HP I obviously didn't feel any pain by the switch.
People were already saying one week into the game just how ridiculous the tenebrous enchants were especially considering how they scaled with HP. These threads surfaced long before any of your precious lemonade stand guides or posts. It's amazing how full of yourselves you are.
When you talk about the "boulder spec" are you referring to pvp or pve? Of course avalanche wasn't used much in pve because everyone wanted singularity bots. In pvp I knew several people that used avalanche. Avalanche has always been effective in premades when used correctly but in pug matches it's easier to use other powers and have a faster kill time.
I can say that I was definitely one of the first CWs to use Icy Rays in pvp (because I rarely saw any others using it back then), but I'm sure you'll go on to claim that some LS CW pioneered it's usage too.
Lol, more bs, 1 week into the game? Try 1 month AT THE LEAST. If there was anyone who was thinking about Tenebrouses the way people think about them now, only 1 week into the game, it was definitely not the general population.
Who are you trying to kid here? Noone EVER ran a spec like that in pvp. PERIOD. I have been pvp'n everyday since the game started and there were no CWs running anything close to it until months into the game. And it was ONE guy, who showed it only to a handful of people and subsequently quit the game.
Why do you think after we beat people on the PTR recently, multiple people from our matches were asking Lantis about boulder and saying how they didnt even think it could be used so effectively in pvp like that? What, so all the top pvp guilds from every server until very recently, didnt know about the boulder build, arguably the best CW build if used well, but you're claiming you know people that have been using it all along? Please get out of here.
* TWITCH * YOUTUBE * MY GUIDES *
im sorry but, how can you say with such certainty was just one cw ?
https://www.youtube.com/user/ThePatomalo/videos
And I'm the one full of myself rofl.
Having most premades on dragon, streams, Mindflayer tournament.....
no one was using it.
Yes I do back cap sometimes, my GF is 10 times better than GWF for backcapping as I can consistently keep the enemy off point and never die in 1v1. Yes I have less mobility but that is why GWF goes to back point first and then when I have the chance we switch out.
Your crit chance does not equal 14.4 * 3, it is simply 14.4% every single attack, which is a big difference from 23.6% on every attack. You could fail to crit 10 times in a row easily with 14.4, but with 23.6 the chances of that are quite low, and much much higher that you will get multiple crits in a rotation than 14.4.
If your abilities truly do that little damage then you should probably figure out whats wrong, when I had DPS gear on my GF I crit for 10-12k on all 3 of those abilities with NO vorpal at all. I think the reason is you are not proning the dummies and therefore losing 25% damage. Add 25% damage, 50% crit severity, and at the very least 15-20% ArP (counting dex) to that equation and it's lights out in 1 rotation.
Lol apparently you haven't tried the full tanky build if you think it isn't effective. I have never died 1v1, not even come close, all those stats I mentioned + holy avenger and negation enchants are just too much defense + high regen. VS. a GWF the GWF is completely negated. VS. TR/CW I will be able to kill them over time as they cannot kill me. VS. GF it is generally a stalemate unless they don't have ~1200 regen which most do. The only thing that got me, as you can see in the video's vs. lemonade, is that Gctrl went to my point and we didn't switch out for our DC, we won't make that strategy error again =P
You should join in the PvP Ranking Tournament this Saturday, with every match being recorded and lots of guilds participating we can really see which builds are most effective.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It is rather easy to dodge the GFs prones if you frequently move behind them, also GWF's CC resistance gives them an edge there.
i think they are equally good. GWF is easily countered by GF because they can throw the GWF all time without engaging in a death fight.
but then GF i think does more poorly against a rogue because of the mobility
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
Well a GWF doesnt have a "hard counter" except a good GF who can pick up points via prones but most likely wont kill eachother, a GF cant do well on average against a good TR... So thats a pretty hard counter to the class....
The other aspect is a GF has almost zero chance 2v1 where as its easier for a GWF to 2v1 because of unstoppable.
Not saying that in high lvl pvp a GWF can 2v1 easily, just that because of unstoppable and mobility, the GWF will last longer and fair better on average compared to a GF who literally has no chance against even two decent players.
Cribstaxx,
"Your crit chance does not equal 14.4 * 3, it is simply 14.4% every single attack," - precisely, so when you run the statistics (do you know how to do the math?) it comes out to the math previously quoted.
I can crit for 10-12k on encounters but it takes quite a bit of debuffs from a CW or a GWF to do that type of damage, people have the bad habit of remembering the big numbers and not paying attention to the average small numbers, go 1v1 a GWF and tell me how hard your bull rush hits or even crits for, I think youll be disappointed on AVERAGE numbers, not the best crit you can muster, but the average crit. Ive tried many sets of gear I have a power stacking PVE set and the numbers still arent that far off. The only times I used to be able to HIT for 6-7k on AVERAGE and crit for 12k-14k without vorpal was with the pre nerf stalwarts set where I have about 11k power + 6 GTE, that was a stupid OP build.
You also need to remember ARP doesnt go negatives so that has not alot of bearing on your 1v1 ability only debuffs do, and anyway you slice it, against a tanky DC/GF or GWF you wont be close to negatives without help. Also if you think a GF is stronger than GWF you havnt gone up against our GWF with Briartwine where even if your constantly prone him, his 7 GTE will still hit you... Its pretty hard to beat even with 1600 regen. Not saying it cant happen but at best youll tie and on average hell still kill you.
The full tanky build is effective at SOME things but not AS effective in group play. The role of a GF isnt to backcap, its to prone/dps targets at the same time. Typically the GF holds mid and sometimes rotates home point. I wont get into this lets just say that Steroidz and I share the same philosophy here... So if you wanna talk to someone more about it, hit him up if he still plays, I used to share the philosophy of tanky GF since that is how I played GWF, however the damage loss does add up and you want to be able to slice through CW/TRs easy at mid.
We might be there saturday, it gets tricky because of all the time zones and life commitments we have in our guild. But it would be nice to play everyone
Cool! Hey I know we disagree on things but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy a PvP match now and again, even just for fun not some kind of ranking thing.
Playing against pugs, even when we only Q with 2-3 people is just no fun. Premade matches are always a blast, hope to see you there!
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yeah I am waiting to see this as well... Also if ARP and things will work with/against it then.
I would imagine that if DR will work against it, then things like ARP or debuffs would work FOR it?
It would be nice to get some clarification on this.
I am not as familiar with ALL the damage types, I know they each do different things.
Physical - full DR applies
Radiant - HALF DR applies
Necrotic - NO DR applies
There are other types of damage, can anyone else comment?
It seems like they will just move tenebrous damage from Necrotic to either radiant or just physical?
I am not 100% sure but I dont think radiant damage scales with arp or debuffs, however, physical does...
This is an area im fuzy in.
I know right... i just stole a page out of your playbook. Oh and sorry for calling you 16 (even though you act it). I got you confused with Lord Steroidz.
2mill to remove 7 is disgusting considering how long they have been in the game working as they are.
So just stack tenes and u won't have to worry about anything anywhere,,,, not even Astral shield!! This is broken
And u say guide on dealing with Tenes, stack HP? Are u serious? You are restricting our gameplay to some one thing that is OP? Like we have no other kind of opponents, cause FYI, not everyone can afford Tenes if u haven't noticed it!
This is just broken and you need to fix it.
- make them unable to pass through dodges and soulforged
- necrotic damage can still pass through defenses
- limit stacking to 3 enchants (9% total hp is enough, a tank build can still have a 3k damage added every 20 seconds. Which, for me, is fair)
- give the chance to remove enchants for free 1 time from players gear to let people adjust their builds without spending a ton of ADs
- give the chance to salvage tenes for the price they were sold in AH before the nerf announcement
I think it would be fair, would still make tenes useful for tank builds but not at the point of making them full tanks with the ability to burst damage with 7k necrotic damage every 20 seconds (on a high HP sentinel: 3%x6-7= 18-21%; 34-37k hp--->6120-7770 damage).
If you look for a normal build that can dish out some damage AND tank, on a GWF, you've to sacrifice regeneration and defense. To get critical and power/ ArP stats to a good point to deal damage, you can't use titan/IS+ titan sword exc..., you've to balance.
This means that after such a nerf, a full tank build with stacked regen/def/deflection/ hp would deal a lot less damage, even with 3 tenes stacked, and would not be able to outdamage the other builds with his 7k burst damage from tenes. On the other side, a tank willing to go for critical to deal damage, would be forced to sacrifice a part of his tankyness.
As it's supposed to be.
Thing is, such a powerful enchant as GTEs should never, ever stack like they do now.
Alternatively, leave them alone as they are and create those PvP ladders already, so people that have GTEs play against other people with GTEs in the end, since I'm sure the guys that have them will band together to maximize their win chances.
Although this is not so good of a solution. Best is that the PvP gear should be relatively easy to get without the need to put any real money into the game, by doing PvP. As soon as real money contaminate the PvP scene and there are items out there with prohibitive prices for a large part of the population, it all goes downhill. Skills should be 75% of success, gear 25%.
The WoW PvP model is best in my opinion. In 1 month of focused PvP, you could get BiS gear and play on equal footing with the best out there, and only skills made the difference.
Now how many months of insane CN farming would I need to equip 7 GTEs and BiS gear in NWO? I doubt that in the present state of the game I can do it in 6 months.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFvMAMMrOdw&feature=youtu.be
I hit a DC in AS the other day with perf terror and its SUPPOSED to do about 80 damage depending on weapon hit,
It did like 40 damage.... I have alot of ARP so on most targets they dont have much left maybe 15% DR, however in AS my "necrotic" damage did a fraction of what it was supposed to.
Two theories:
1) Necrotic damage only gets mitigated by CERTAIN defensive abilities like AS.
2) Necrotic damage is mitigated by ALL defensive stats, most of the time GWF with max con has more than enough arp to cancel out TR/CW defenses but it would be niticable on a higher DR target like another GWF.
Can anyone confirm/deny via FOOTAGE that necro damage bypasses ALL DR
Terror/Lifedrinker are two off the top of my head outside of tenebs.
Lifedrinker is definitely affected by DR, I read my combat log last night, and lifedrinker did about 25(7x) dmg to me which is about right since it probably proc when i had a 50% determination bar unstoppable.
On the idea of barkshield can counter tene, that is simply not true. A simple dot on you will completely consume your barkshield charges, thus you can only HOPE to be able to absort tene when it proc. Statisticly speaking, the chance of barkshield charge matching a tene proc is really low as there are so many dots could be applied on you (thus so many dot procs vs 1 tene proc), except for maybe the first hit; that is also a big maybe since if that cw with no tene ranged you, all your barkshield charges are gone, then the non range attker such as a gf with bull charge / or gwf hits you just a split sec later, you will not have any barkshield charges left to 'counter' tene (i guess this can also be a strategy in some teams with tene for sure). In s longer fight, any DOT on you will almost certainly 'waste' your barkshield, thus allow tene to do its full dmg.
This is the experience i had last night against 2 gwf with tene, i have not seen my barkshield abosrded ANY of their tene proc. So I dont know why people say barkshield is the counter for tene.