Tenebrous need to follow the rules like all the others.
We may not have agreed about things in the past, but I agree with everything you just said. Very well put, and while I have and AM an advocate of the nerf, I think and hope the nerf will bring about more competitive pvp and I think its a necessary change for this game.
My only beef with the enchant is that its still going to be VERY bad in PVE and I would love to see some alternative to make it MORE balanced, just different than stack stacking.
Having enchants like tenebrous create a divide between pvp and pve that I would love to see closed. I have an entirely different set for PVE because tenebrous are so bad...
There are alot of ways to change the enchant that would not make it game breaking and could potentially be very fun! I mean something as simple as "Hits deal 3% of weapon damage as necrotic damage" would be cool, Much like the terror enchant does. This would STILL be a very good enchant.
Or if Tenebrous just gave FLAT % boosts, 2% crit or 2% arp on greaters and 1% on normals with a vendor for lessers at 100k AD each.
OR even enchants that give + ability points, like a vendor that sells +1Con and +1 Dex enchant for sale via tenebrous you could then choose between +str/+dex roll enchants etc....
OR just rework how tenebrous damage is done, should be calculated on base HP instead of total, Cd reduced, able to proc on multiple enemies, etc...
The current proposition fixes the PVP issue, but still makes the enchants worthless for PVE, it would be NICE (IMO) to have that divide reduced or gone completely....
Soooo...you basically say he killed you more because of :
1- Luck ( The soulforged proc)
2- Tenerbrous ( no matter how much you twist it around, you did say he won because of it )
Conclusion:
a Player who doesn;t use tenebrous is more skilled than a player who does :O
Well by that logic, i would say that anyone who isn't using greater SF and greater Vorpal rank 7 enchants is also more skilled than the one who uses them right? :cool:
I am saying that because of how lethal Tenebrous are in a Perma Stealth build, even though I personally feel that we are of the same caliber of player, he had an advantage over me, that wasn't because of skill, it was because of the way Tenebrous work.
You can blow up and highlight any text of mine you want, I made it very clear saying I feel him and I are on the same level, and even after the change, it will be a coin toss, or a matter of whose ping is better that day when we face each other 1 vs 1.
You must have missed the part when I said if you want to flame don't bother.
Explain to me how you feel that Tenebrous enchants are even remotely competitive at all, when nothing is able to stop them.
I am saying that because of how lethal Tenebrous are in a Perma Stealth build, even though I personally feel that we are of the same caliber of player, he had an advantage over me, that wasn't because of skill, it was because of the way Tenebrous work.
You can blow up and highlight any text of mine you want, I made it very clear saying I feel him and I are on the same level, and even after the change, it will be a coin toss, or a matter of whose ping is better that day when we face each other 1 vs 1.
You must have missed the part when I said if you want to flame don't bother.
Explain to me how you feel that Tenebrous enchants are even remotely competitive at all, when nothing is able to stop them.
hmm..where did i flame? unless disagreeing with you= flame.
I just wanted to highlight how you said that you both are same level of skill..and then you went 180 degree change and said " but he won cuz of tene and SF ". It sounded more like an excuse more than a justification.
If you want to prove something, put numbers or videos of you fighting him. "Feelings" doesn't prove anything on interwebz.
For those that think Tenebrous isnt OP, just some food for thought here.
Most of you know Blacksheep TR from Enemy Team (used to be TSB). He posted a pre nerf Lurkers video that alot of people watched, where he was NOT using tene and blowing people up in pvp.
Then he switched to Tene, and made a new video. Here is a quote he made about his Current TR with Tenebrous versus his old TR without,
"Actually im 10x more stronger than on the video.
The Blacksheep from now days would kill the Blacksheep from video over and over again."
So to say it again, his tenebrous Build is 10x more stronger than his old build without tenebrous. Thats his view about the build and the enchant.
Now I dont know about 10x stronger, but stronger? clearly.
The thing is, even after the nerf, they are still BiS for PvP. So i'm not sure whats the point of this mix of dramatic dilemma
If they will be affected by DR, then would their damage be affected by armor pen and mitigation debuffs? I.E if i have 20% armor pen and 3% mitigation debuff, and my opponent has 40% DR...will i ignore 40-23 = 17% of his DRs...leaving him with only 17% DR against my tene?
From the way they interact with barkshield, it means they will interact with DR/Deflect the same way as 7x individual procs?
Well...whether you like their attitude towards you or not...they have proven to be the best PvP guild in whole NWO more than once (including equally geared matches on Preview shard) with respectful gameplay match ups aswell.
Besides, you can't just expect people to be nice when you provoke and throw empty accusation at them don't you think?
I did quit, before the servers merged or me knowing about it, now I'm trying to get back, sorry that I'm not p2w or exploity as you expected me to be, it takes time to get my enchants back.
and why should I pay attention to what you say? unlike you I contributed to this thread when it was created and I've been sharing information since then, heck in general I always share information regarding game mechanics, you and MANY others never created any threads demanding nerfs to tenes, but now all of a sudden you just jump on the band wagon like you knew it all along.
You don't even know how they work, what 50/50 guessing games they create, that's why I listen to ayroux and others that HAVE tenes and are against it, these "rebalance" threads (remind you this thread was created by LS guild leader to help people combat tenes, oh the irony) were created after PTR event, they came from participants, so yeah i feel i have a say when i was there with them.
I did quit, before the servers merged or me knowing about it, now I'm trying to get back, sorry that I'm not p2w or exploity as you expected me to be, it takes time to get my enchants back.
and why should I pay attention to what you say? unlike you I contributed to this thread when it was created and I've been sharing information since then, heck in general I always share information regarding game mechanics, you and MANY others never created any threads demanding nerfs to tenes, but now all of a sudden you just jump on the band wagon like you knew it all along.
You don't even know how they work, what 50/50 guessing games they create, that's why I listen to ayroux and others that HAVE tenes and are against it, these "rebalance" threads (remind you this thread was created by LS guild leader to help people combat tenes, oh the irony) were created after PTR event, they came from participants, so yeah i feel i have a say when i was there with them.
Yeah I have to say Lantiss is pretty "**** friendly" in that hes pretty open about builds enchants and what not, even offering advice to people AND offering to stream (while he was playing more actively).
Its really sad people want to come in here and bash/flame about the tene nerf. What I find amusing is that people dont take the time to figure out exactly who is talking about what to even see if their opinion should be considered valid or not.
So many times that I posted about tenes, it was met with massive flame first accusing me of being some **** who lost in pvp and now came to QQ on the forums.
Ive had tenes for longer than probably most people in this game that still play....
Lantiss is another one of those, and id say that out of all the people that play this game, his perspective and opinion SHOULD definitely warrant some weight because of his pretty extensive knowledge of the game and experience.
Now, Im pretty sure Lantiss and I have disagreed on many things since this games inception, but that doesnt mean we cant respect eachothers opinions.
I agree that we should be able to be civil about all this, sometimes issues get heated especially when people try and brag on a nerf forum, and people post stupid stuff, so lets just all move on and get to the issue at hand...
Tenebrous feedback to the DEVS.
it seems like any new thread about it gets moved in here and unfortunately now its so many pages of text, the DEVs probably wont read this.
Great you posted a way to combat tene's. All that work to combat a single enchant? No other enchant in the game requires that much work to combat. The guide itself is proof that it is an OP enchant.
single enchant? this is the MAIN reason this enchant is considered so strong, because back then people overlooked it, before people understood how cryptic trolls us with gear scores and diminishing returns, anything that is "greater" wasn't considered so good. mind you greater plague fire was better than vorpal, not because of its amazing stats, but because it stacked. where do you see any plague fire threads? you don't, because it was "fixed" (they broke it) in time, but people still bought vorpal and dark 10s, because hey if it goes up to 10 it means its better right? who the hell knew about DR caps and all the hidden stacking stats back then.
I assure you if we go back 4 months ago and people knowing about this enchant, we will either have everyone use it or removed from the game by now, it would be considered just a standard pvp enchant.
single enchant? this is the MAIN reason this enchant is considered so strong, because back then people overlooked it, before people understood how cryptic trolls us with gear scores and diminishing returns, anything that is "greater" wasn't considered so good. mind you greater plague fire was better than vorpal, not because of its amazing stats, but because it stacked. where do you see any plague fire threads? you don't, because it was "fixed" (they broke it) in time, but people still bought vorpal and dark 10s, because hey if it goes up to 10 it means its better right? who the hell knew about DR caps and all the hidden stacking stats back then.
I assure you if we go back 4 months ago and people knowing about this enchant, we will either have everyone use it or removed from the game by now, it would be considered just a standard pvp enchant.
Lol are you kidding me? People realized how powerful tenes were since the first week of the game. Only pvers cared more about gearscore. Regardless it's time for the enchant to change. It will still be powerful, just more in line with everything else in the game
Lol are you kidding me? People realized how powerful tenes were since the first week of the game. Only pvers cared more about gearscore. Regardless it's time for the enchant to change. It will still be powerful, just more in line with everything else in the game
That's why you have so many of them right? when you say "people realized" do you mean the same people that realized that its possible to regen without elixirs? man ill tell you what, go back through the class forums and lookup when the current meta builds surfaced up, then match them to any high profile premade that attracted alot of forum replies and tell me what was posted first.
It's easy to pretend you know everything but up untill last PTR no one was using boulder spec on a CW, literally one guy was using it and he didn't publish it. people level up only when they meet greater challenge, that's when they push themselves and try and innovate.
it took me 2 secs to dig up an old post by ayroux, now compare the date:
I think I was maybe 5-12 going against you 1 vs 1. I had a lot of fun fighting you though.
I've fought many g-teny users before and won, I think its hardest(for me anyway), fighting a skilled TR with gtenys and a smart build. PoB with those is nasty and not a whole lot another TR can do about it.
Which is why I am very excited for the upcoming changes to Tenes, because I run a high deflect build. For me, tenes wont be a factor anymore.
I am however very curious and anxious to find out how they are going to do these changes.
For example. Lets use a 7Gtene user. On one proc of 7, are those 7 procs going to count as 1? So on a successful deflect all 7 hits would be deflected?
Or are they going to count 7 procs individually?
Personally I believe they should count them individually. They technically are 7 different hits, it would be unfair to both sides, to count them as a whole.
haha i know. I think they were just defending me without actually knowing what you said. i deleted part of the post. sorry for their misunderstanding =p. I tried looking up matches I had against EoA that were arranged and this is the only one i could find through synozeer's youtube. Think we were trying out Lion and Wargasm. Overall it was a good match and I definitely died to somebody but can't really tell from his perspective without sitting through the whole video looking for my name to pop up lol
haha i know. I think they were just defending me without actually knowing what you said. i deleted part of the post. sorry for their misunderstanding =p. I tried looking up matches I had against EoA that were arranged and this is the only one i could find through synozeer's youtube. Think we were trying out Lion and Wargasm. Overall it was a good match and I definitely died to somebody but can't really tell from his perspective without sitting through the whole video looking for my name to pop up lol
Yah that was the game
You guys had a great rotation going on and we couldn't seem to get back on top of it. Lion was helping you cap our point quite often which was a nice little fisting for me =P
Don was having trouble with War, talking after the match I think we should have switched us early in the match. Because of his regen he may have done better fighting you, and I may have done better fighting War because of ItC and my deflect/dps.
Got crushed, learned some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, had fun, wished we had a DC, lol
That's why you have so many of them right? when you say "people realized" do you mean the same people that realized that its possible to regen without elixirs? man ill tell you what, go back through the class forums and lookup when the current meta builds surfaced up, then match them to any high profile premade that attracted alot of forum replies and tell me what was posted first.
It's easy to pretend you know everything but up untill last PTR no one was using boulder spec on a CW, literally one guy was using it and he didn't publish it. people level up only when they meet greater challenge, that's when they push themselves and try and innovate.
it took me 2 secs to dig up an old post by ayroux, now compare the date:
not to put ayroux on the spot, just giving an example of someone who adapted the build very well and caught my attention when he made the pvp video.
Just to be fair, I had tenes on my first character (GF) LONG before I did the GWF build. I wont say I came up with it myself, but I had hit 60 and pvpd a while (4-5 weeks) with greater tenes on my Str/Con GF build (because Dex DIDNT give arp then) then came across a REALLY hard to kill GWF in pvp, asked him about his build and hp, and thought dang I bet that would be perfect with my tenes then rolled a GWF to test it out.
Lantiss has a really good point because I didnt even figure out Regen until about a month or so after that as well playing around with gear and figuring out the scrappers/titan combo was the best, then noticing the regen on that and started adding more and more...
I played since OB and was very lucky to have figured out Tenebs were OP VERY early... Although the builds I favor today, look nothing like the builds that were around back then...
I mean a perfect example is "Envy" a GF that thought he was "god" told everyone to roll Timeless as a GF, I never liked the set because the math never added up, but thats an example of the "popular" build that was out at the time.
Then "Uncag3d" from Lemonade Stand posted he was the "Best GF in the game" after challenging people on the PTR and drew alot of attention to Tene/Con builds but STILL no regen.
THEN later Steroidz drew attention to his "impossible to kill" GWF even later AFTER the GWF buff that made them OP...
SO yeah alot of evolution in builds, people may have noticed 1 enchant was OP but didnt realize how to build AROUND that enchant until months well into that game.... And are STILL learning to do that.
I hope with this tene nerf well see more and more development into alternative builds, I know a GWF that is "underwraps" right now and working on.... Maybe itll surface soon
For those that think Tenebrous isnt OP, just some food for thought here.
Most of you know Blacksheep TR from Enemy Team (used to be TSB). He posted a pre nerf Lurkers video that alot of people watched, where he was NOT using tene and blowing people up in pvp.
Then he switched to Tene, and made a new video. Here is a quote he made about his Current TR with Tenebrous versus his old TR without,
"Actually im 10x more stronger than on the video.
The Blacksheep from now days would kill the Blacksheep from video over and over again."
So to say it again, his tenebrous Build is 10x more stronger than his old build without tenebrous. Thats his view about the build and the enchant.
Now I dont know about 10x stronger, but stronger? clearly.
Alysin your post highlights this as well.
Just so you know those are 2 different TR's. The pre-nerf video was a different account and he was unhappy with his stats and made a new one. The new perfect stat TR would beat the old one hands down with the same exact gear on each...
Not to mention his new TR has ~32k HP so he is kinda forced into tene's with that build. Lol also the pre-nerf Blacksheep would 1 shot the post nerf blacksheep, hence his 60k crit video.
@ everyone saying tene is so obviously broken: Are all other damage types that ignore a % of DR broken? Have you never played a game with damage types before, some being more effective? Can any other enchantments damage be deflected? Why is it ok that soulforged has no counter, guaranteed 5 second invulnerability is not OP? lol at that one.
Many of our guild are in the process or have already switched out tene's for R9-10 enchants, because they perform better in pvp. You can cry and whine, post fudged math numbers, say how OP tene is until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that R9-10 perform outright better in all aspects except while enemy is in SF on certain builds.
Are there classes that tene will perform better? Of course. TR's simply offer too much regen on items, and the ability to take advantage of it from stealth to not have high HP and high regen, which then lends itself to a tene build.
GWF, CW, DC (obviously), and GF with certain builds, can all benefit more from R9-10's depending on their builds.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Great you posted a way to combat tene's. All that work to combat a single enchant? No other enchant in the game requires that much work to combat. The guide itself is proof that it is an OP enchant.
The OP-ness of an enchant is different depending on who's looking at it though. Is vorpal OP? 2 TR's have a 1v1, both have greater vorpal - vorpal isn't OP in their eyes. 2 TR's have a 1v1, 1 has a perfect vorpal, the other has a lesser - OMG vorpal OP!!!!!11one is the response from an unexperienced PvP'er.
Someone with R5's is going to perceive R10's to be OP (because he doesn't have them) Someone with no armor enchant is going to perceive P. soulforged as OP b/c that player gets 5 seconds of invuln while he gets 0 (and again because he doesn't have one) Pretty much any expensive gear is going to be OP in the minds of those with lesser gear.
This is why opinions of those in normal enchants and R6-7's is of very little value in this thread, because they simply don't know what they are talking about when it comes Tenebrous and top tier PvP.
OMG Cribs is so elitist! Actually I'm just being serious. I'm sure that someone could pull up an old post of mine where I'm calling for tene nerf. I used to post about it all the time, and call for it, because it was what was destroying me in PvP in my eyes. That was before I joined a PvP guild, and all I was doing was my couple dominations a day for the daily. I had literally no clue about top tier PvP gear and I'm so glad my opinion wasn't heard, b/c it was foolish and came from inexperience!
Just like this thread's original purpose, you simply need to learn how to combat Tene's to see that they are not as strong as people make them out to be.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The OP-ness of an enchant is different depending on who's looking at it though. Is vorpal OP? 2 TR's have a 1v1, both have greater vorpal - vorpal isn't OP in their eyes. 2 TR's have a 1v1, 1 has a perfect vorpal, the other has a lesser - OMG vorpal OP!!!!!11one is the response from an unexperienced PvP'er.
Someone with R5's is going to perceive R10's to be OP (because he doesn't have them) Someone with no armor enchant is going to perceive P. soulforged as OP b/c that player gets 5 seconds of invuln while he gets 0 (and again because he doesn't have one) Pretty much any expensive gear is going to be OP in the minds of those with lesser gear.
This is why opinions of those in normal enchants and R6-7's is of very little value in this thread, because they simply don't know what they are talking about when it comes Tenebrous and top tier PvP.
OMG Cribs is so elitist! Actually I'm just being serious. I'm sure that someone could pull up an old post of mine where I'm calling for tene nerf. I used to post about it all the time, and call for it, because it was what was destroying me in PvP in my eyes. That was before I joined a PvP guild, and all I was doing was my couple dominations a day for the daily. I had literally no clue about top tier PvP gear and I'm so glad my opinion wasn't heard, b/c it was foolish and came from inexperience!
Just like this thread's original purpose, you simply need to learn how to combat Tene's to see that they are not as strong as people make them out to be.
This is were I disagree. My characters may only have rank 5s and 7s, but I pvp a lot. One of the reasons I only have rank 5s and 7s because the little amount of time I get to spend playing is spent pvping instead of farming and doing dungeons. I do both pugs and guild groups. I am pretty much C team in my guild because I am still upgrading my enchants and working on correcting mistakes with gear and enchants. But playing nightly with my guild, I have faced some of the best players and held my own. I have faced in group vs group games players with both rank 10s and Tenebrous, and the difference is pretty stark.
I have faced a rogue with rank 10 darks and ridiculous ArPen, which you would think would be ideal against a GWF. And I admit he did a ton of damage. He also died a lot faster. The difference in facing a GWF with Tenebrous vs one without is stark as well. The times I faced Ayroux on his GWF, he could ripped me apart much fast than any GWFs with high level darks.
Even with rank 5 darks, my GF and GWF already max out Resist Ignore against Rogues and CWs. Upgrading those to rank 10s would do nothing for me. Power is so bad for GWF, it is not even worth switching out for my GWF. Crit diminishes so fast, that gain would be nice, not come close to what I could gain from Tenebrous. My GF is more burst damage focused than tank, so there is an argument to be made he would not get as much out of Tenebrous than ArPen/Crit.
I get it, Barkshield counters Tenebrous because it counters that initial advantage the Tenebrous user gains. Yet then metagame becomes about enchants more so than it does classes. The "entry" level becomes first have your tenebrous or barkshield enchant first before anything else really gets taken into consideration. Not to mention that the damage you gain from every enchant you can put in an offensive slot can be Dodged/Reduced through DR/Deflected, except Tenebrous. I have met builds that do a good bit more damage than Tenebrous do, but there survivability is no where even close.
Again I am not for nerfing Tenebrous into the ground and making them useless. If the nerf is too much, hopefully they will adjust it before going live. It should be on par with rank 10s in my opinion. I don't think it will be too much, but it is all speculation until they finally put it on preview for testing.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
The perfect solution is ladder-based matchmaking. This way you'll know that all you fight are teams around your own value. In a few weeks, all the GTE users and PvP guilds will stay on top of the ladders and just play among themselves. If you perform nicely, then you go up and up in ladder until you end up stalling in the segment that is 50-50 win-loss ratio for your team. So very simple.
I find this a much better solution than any kinds of nerfs.
Just make those ladders and ranking systems already, and also give us dual spec. I am not willing to gimp my char for PvE just to freeze some guy faster or survive longer. I want to switch as I like between specs, whenever needed.
Also having a ladder system will allow the devs to see what needs balancing. Too many 3 GWF/GF/DC teams on top (just an example)? Ok, maybe this comp needs rebalancing and tweaking. Ideally people should desire each class in a team, because each class should be essential and irreplaceable.
Until these things happen in NWO, for me PvP is exactly as Kripp said months ago (and nothing has changed... so lame) - For the Lulz.
The perfect solution is ladder-based matchmaking....
I fully agree. You need a point of reference to state what's OP. If a guy with R10 and Perfects is unleashed in against a PuG group doing 4 matches for the dailies, it's going to end up in tears. If he runs against other such people it's going to end up in a good matchup that will end up (most likely) to the most skilled+lucky.
Can't stress enough how much a PvP ranked ladder is needed for the game. PvP sells, and it's definitely the major source of getting ideas for new builds and combos.
I have faced in group vs group games players with both rank 10s and Tenebrous, and the difference is pretty stark.
I have faced a rogue with rank 10 darks and ridiculous ArPen, which you would think would be ideal against a GWF. And I admit he did a ton of damage. He also died a lot faster. The difference in facing a GWF with Tenebrous vs one without is stark as well. The times I faced Ayroux on his GWF, he could ripped me apart much fast than any GWFs with high level darks.
Even with rank 5 darks, my GF and GWF already max out Resist Ignore against Rogues and CWs. Upgrading those to rank 10s would do nothing for me. Power is so bad for GWF, it is not even worth switching out for my GWF. Crit diminishes so fast, that gain would be nice, not come close to what I could gain from Tenebrous. My GF is more burst damage focused than tank, so there is an argument to be made he would not get as much out of Tenebrous than ArPen/Crit.
I get it, Barkshield counters Tenebrous because it counters that initial advantage the Tenebrous user gains. Yet then metagame becomes about enchants more so than it does classes. The "entry" level becomes first have your tenebrous or barkshield enchant first before anything else really gets taken into consideration. Not to mention that the damage you gain from every enchant you can put in an offensive slot can be Dodged/Reduced through DR/Deflected, except Tenebrous. I have met builds that do a good bit more damage than Tenebrous do, but there survivability is no where even close.
Again I am not for nerfing Tenebrous into the ground and making them useless. If the nerf is too much, hopefully they will adjust it before going live. It should be on par with rank 10s in my opinion. I don't think it will be too much, but it is all speculation until they finally put it on preview for testing.
You pretty much nailed it,
I have a Perf Vorp TR (see Curse PvP Vid) and I can spit out amazing damage without tenebrous, but a tenebrous TR will beat me in a 1v1 most of the time because they can sacrifice damage for additional stealth and suvivability relying on tene to deal damage.
I have all Dark 8s, and upgrading to ALL R9 Darks on him gives LESS than 1% damage boost... Now I admit I am pretty hard into Dim returns on Dark stacking, arguably more so than most classes but each R8-R9 upgrade spits out about .15% more damage and only on higher DR targets.
The difference between R7s - R8s is about 1.5% damage difference...
So.... The difference between even R7s and R10 players is NOT that much (maybe like 3% damage), however, revolving a build around tenebrous damage, that is easily and arguably the strongest TR build in the game.
Power? well 2k power = a 7% damage boost on my TR, tested this ALOT. So is stacking R10 radiants better than tene? No way, not even better than Darks.
Crit? Well most TR gear gives ALOT of crit, I have to get 300 points to get <1% more crit. So 2k more crit would result in about 4-5% more crit.
Anyway you slice it, Tenebrous pre nerf is WAY stronger. Sure there are builds to counter it, however its a night and day difference.
Cribstaxxx referenced how vorpal vs vorpal noone complains but lesser vs perfect then people scream OP.
The issue is you only addressed an analogy that doesnt fit the bill even, AND didnt address the enchant itself. You have not once offered an argument about the enchant that shows its OP. Why does it not work? Because you can throw ANY truly OP item in the place of Tenebs in your argument, and say "if each player has it, its not OP, versus a ****, they cry foul" it has no weight whatsoever on the merits of the enchant OR if it truly is OP.
Barkshield does NOT counter tenebs. It CAN in some situations, but it all depends on WHEN the tenebs proc and WHEN you have charges. I also want to point out that while Tenebs CAN go through SF, often times, they dont because its on CD. YOur also talking about 4-5 seconds out of ALOT of combat... while its pretty strong, its not incredibly gamebreaking...
I havnt seen you do any math or calculations on the forums that are reflective of the enchant today versus R10 darks OR the enchant post nerf versus R10 darks, you just assert your opinion. I, however, have shown BOTH and STILL think the enchant is BIS and will STILL use it post nerf as well.
A new player can eventually upgrade to rank 10's. Eventually the supply of tenes is going to be zero. Removing them from the game had the exact opposite effect than intended. Instead of sweeping it under the rug it highlighted them because they are no longer available in great supply! Eventually the number of them available is going to be zero!
Which is why the solution is to re-release tene's in future boxes not punish all those that have already purchased them.
@kaylos - That is exactly the position that I was in when I was very foolishly calling for Tene nerfs when I had no clue about them. Also I'm sorry but you simply can't expect to have very casual play time, spend no money, and not meet people far more geared than you. I have a full time job and am married, and I didn't spend very much on the game until the server merge b/c there just weren't that many opponents on beholder. Now that everyone is on one shard however I put some money and more effort into some new characters b/c I enjoy the PvP in this game. Lol you think I'll ever spend any more money if they nerf all the items I bought 2 weeks later? Hell no.
@persephone - yes exactly. But while we are waiting for said ladders I have already organized a continuing ranking tournament for any guild that wishes to participate, details in the PvP ranking thread in gameplay section
@ayroux - you simply don't perceive it as OP b/c you have equally strong gear. To someone with no armor enchant, his opponent getting 5 seconds of invulnerable is BS and totally stupid OP. To someone that has no weapon enchant you getting 50% stronger crits is HUGE, and way stronger than he could ever hope to achieve without one. Again I have told you that R9-10 perform better than Tene for some builds and we have multiple guild members switching to them already. Math cannot be used to calculate effectiveness of Tene's, there are too many variables (current HP, team comp, your targets DR, your stat difference with and w/o tene's, proc timing, etc...) Math aside, R9-10 perform BETTER in PvP for certain builds, and for certain builds tene perform better.
We will be more than happy to post video's of us crushing guilds with tene's in our new, and more effective, non-tene builds once everyone gets their gear.
Matter of fact I would be more than happy to host a Tournament (other than the ranking tourney) in which our entire team will use 0 tene's and all other teams may use as many as they want. That would more than prove that skill, strategy, rotation > gear hands down.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
@persephone - yes exactly. But while we are waiting for said ladders I have already organized a continuing ranking tournament for any guild that wishes to participate, details in the PvP ranking thread in gameplay section
It would be nice if the game would have a spectator mode so I can watch live.
As for taking part in the tournament, meh. From the few premades I've played in, I know I'm too vulnerable to be a good asset to my team, too many savage melees running amok wreaking squishes. Just watch the PvP videos from LS: "get the CW, get the CW" lol, always first priority. How about: "Let the CW live, he's a cool person" instead
I am a realistic person and know the limits of this char... which I plan on improving but it will take a long time to do so. I will watch the videos from the tournament when posted though, hope to see your dwarf mage in action.
@kaylos - That is exactly the position that I was in when I was very foolishly calling for Tene nerfs when I had no clue about them. Also I'm sorry but you simply can't expect to have very casual play time, spend no money, and not meet people far more geared than you. I have a full time job and am married, and I didn't spend very much on the game until the server merge b/c there just weren't that many opponents on beholder. Now that everyone is on one shard however I put some money and more effort into some new characters b/c I enjoy the PvP in this game. Lol you think I'll ever spend any more money if they nerf all the items I bought 2 weeks later? Hell no.
That is an assumption to say I spend no money. I do actually spend money, but I am not willing to spend 100 dollars per Greater Tenebrous (well they are down to 2,4 mill AD atm, so probably closer 75 dollars). I could churn nightmare boxes and reduce the cost a little by selling everything but Tene's off, but that would is not an easier route either given that nightmare box supply is limited as well.
I am currently upgrading my rank 5s to 7s, and then will upgrade them to 8s. This will give me a noticeable, but hardly the large boost Tenes would. On my GF, 300 extra ArPen/Crit each from rank 5s to 8s gives me around 3.5% more resist ignore and about 2.5% crit (I am actually almost at rank 7s with him). Very nice I must say, but is a marginal boost relatively speaking.
I would not be against them making Tenebrous more available again, just re-releasing them in lockboxes would remove the need to pay for lockboxes and increase the supply to bring the price down. Given the corner they painted themselves into with people spending real money specifically for these enchants, that would have been the route I would have expected. I prefer re-balancing them to be inline with rank 10s, but would find greater availability acceptable. Heck, mayne even make lessers available for ridiculous amounts of glory so they aren't easily farmable, but available to the people that would use them, pvpers. But what then of all the people that spent a ton on them and now others are getting them for cheaper? Wouldn't that simply be similar to bringing them in line with rank 10s?
edit: There are a few builds better off without Tene's. But if Tene's are brought in line with rank 9s and 10s, it would swap. There would be a few builds better off with Tenebrous, but there would be more builds viable without. And those builds wouldn't require the investment Tenebrous require to get started since getting rank 7s isn't too hard, and the jump from 7s to 10s isn't nearly as big as the jump from normal Tenebrous to Greater Tenebrous.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
you simply don't perceive it as OP b/c you have equally strong gear. To someone with no armor enchant, his opponent getting 5 seconds of invulnerable is BS and totally stupid OP. To someone that has no weapon enchant you getting 50% stronger crits is HUGE, and way stronger than he could ever hope to achieve without one. Again I have told you that R9-10 perform better than Tene for some builds and we have multiple guild members switching to them already. Math cannot be used to calculate effectiveness of Tene's, there are too many variables (current HP, team comp, your targets DR, your stat difference with and w/o tene's, proc timing, etc...) Math aside, R9-10 perform BETTER in PvP for certain builds, and for certain builds tene perform better.
Matter of fact I would be more than happy to host a Tournament (other than the ranking tourney) in which our entire team will use 0 tene's and all other teams may use as many as they want. That would more than prove that skill, strategy, rotation > gear hands down.
I simple DO perceive Tene is OP, because I HAVE them and hav used them for MONTHS. We are not comparing and I have NEVER compared NO enchants versus enchants. I have said MANY times for MONTHS now that enchants ARE end game gear. But comparing R10s currently on most builds versus Tene is (I would say) the difference between a P. vorpal versus a G. Vorpal. Can either person win? Sure! Can either peson perform equally well in PVP? Sure! Can a team full of G. Vorpals beat a team full for P. Vorpals? SURE!
But that still doesnt address the math of P. Vorp is > G. Vorp. Or in reality about tenebs, G.Tene > R10s.
There are not too many variables, there are ALOT of ways to measure this. Ill give just TWO easy ways to compute this.
1) Poor mans method: Record just ONE match of PVP, play it back, and look at each rotation of damage you deal, look at how much damage in teneb damage you dealt compared to your rotations, and then run the simple math equation assuming you have R9 Darks. Its pretty easy to calculate a flat % damage boost on encounters and you can even assume it affects ALL damage eventhough itll only really affect 3 of 5 classes.
2) REALLY simple: Go use ACT to record a few PVP matches in full. Use math to figure out how much more % of damage youd do if you ran Dark R9s-R10s, then multiple that by the total NON tene damage you did, and compare that damage added to your teneb damage. This gives you a pretty accurate way to measure them.
To your last point, Ill FIX your quote, "strategy, rotation > marginal gear difference hands down."
You could take lemonade stand wearing 5k GS and a total pug group with tenebs and theyd probably lose. There is a point in which at high lvl pvp the marginal difference in gear can easily be overcome by better tactics, but tactics can only overcome so much of a difference in gear. Like I said above, Tene vs Non-Tene builds is akin to a P vorp versus a G vorp.
@ Kaylos- You pretty much nailed it:
edit: There are a few builds better off without Tene's. But if Tene's are brought in line with rank 9s and 10s, it would swap. There would be a few builds better off with Tenebrous, but there would be more builds viable without. And those builds wouldn't require the investment Tenebrous require to get started since getting rank 7s isn't too hard, and the jump from 7s to 10s isn't nearly as big as the jump from normal Tenebrous to Greater Tenebrous.
As for taking part in the tournament, meh. From the few premades I've played in, I know I'm too vulnerable to be a good asset to my team, too many savage melees running amok wreaking squishes. Just watch the PvP videos from LS: "get the CW, get the CW" lol, always first priority. How about: "Let the CW live, he's a cool person" instead
Lol yeah CW is always target #1, but that's because they have such amazing burst damage and CC
@kaylos - I know this has nothing to do with the argument but if you have extra money from zen or whatever I would suggest investing in greater or even normal fey blessings. You can get a utility neck slot so even with 4 normals you'll have 8% chance, which is more than enough with the ~25 second CD the enchant has. You can farm a R7 in an hour or less, so you could quickly have R8's, it's pretty awesome!
@ayroux - you say that tene's are hands down OP and better than any R10 enchant, but then you turn around and say that skill is only > marginal gear differences. So if we faced a team with full tene's with a team having no tene's we should be decimated by your huge gear advantage right? This is why I want to put together these matches, it simply proves that tene's are not the huge advantage that they are made out to be, and that R9-10 enchants can be just as viable and in some cases more powerful.
Also wearing full lvl 60 blue's you can easily attain 9.3k (my cleric in 100% blue's was 9.3k for a long time heh) and with boons well over 10.5k. I would also wager that LS could beat pugs if LS were clad in all blue's with no tene's, have you seen the pugs lately?
How can you both say Tene vs. non-tene is akin to G. vorpal vs. P vorpal and then still hold the position that they are OP?? 12% crit severity is meaningless compared to skill, strategy, and rotation of the player.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I am actually doing that now. Will have 4 lessers by tomorrow, and then should be able to upgrade those to normals once a week. I noticed the difference with just 2 lessers over the holiday weekend. The holiday weekend will get me to all rank 7s on both characters thanks to spreading 5 separate 256Ks over 5 characters. Nothing to do with Tenebrous, but it does show that you can systematically upgrade your standard enchants pretty well, even if those rank 10s are out of reach. (and at 8 millions a pop, you might as well grab tenebrous)
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I have done this once before, but I just want to show how much "non-tenebrous" builds compare to a Tenebrous build on a GF.
BASELINE:
Arguably, or atleast in my opnion, the best non-tenebrous GF build is arp stacking along with crit stacking + a perfect vorpal.
They will run 2pc knights cap set (+400 arp) and 2pc High Gen set (+450 arp).
This along with rings/neck/belt etc PLUS a 24/25 Dex roll will net you with 28.3% arp - 29.3% arp depending on the fire buff.
With the boon/neck/rings/belt youll get around 913 crit. This is a 7.4% crit bonus. Added on a 5% base and 2/3 feats this nets you at 14.4% crit.
ENCHANTS:
Now, you look at your SIX offensive slots.
Lets say R9s in each, and were stacking crit here so Azure.
260*6= 1560 crit. Well that added to our 913 = 2473 crit. I ran some numbers on stacking and have these values to play against:
2293 = 14.8%
2597 = 15.9%
So about 304 = 1.1% crit. We are about 100 less than 15.9 so call it .33% crit less so well put it at 15.6% crit, pretty fair and more than generous.
Well if our base line PRE Azure was 7.4% and our NEW stat bonus was 15.6% meaning a difference of 8.2% crit! So 6 R9 Azure enchants gets us 8.2% more crit.
BUT WAIT!
We can give up .1% prone duration and get 1% more crit too!
Before I was at 14.4% crit, we added 8.2% more crit from 6 R9 Azure, AND added 1% more from feats, this puts us at a whopping
23.6% CRIT
Ok so what does that mean?
I WAS at 14.4% crit, now at 23.6% lets just for fun ROUND and say its a 10% difference.
so if we attacked 100 times before wed get about 14 crits, now well get 24 crits. Pretty cool huh. Thats 10 more crits of 100 OR 1 more crit out of TEN attacks. We have three encounters so lets be even more generous and say you get 1 more crit than you did before out of THREE full encounter rotations.
Before = 9 encounters = 1 crit on average, NOW we have 2 crit on average. Cool Beans.
In a rotation encounter you have 3 encounters that each hit a dummy between 4-5.5k (at zero DR) SO well just use our 5.5K number for ALL of them to make it even More infavor of crit.
So 5.5k x 3 encounters. Now lest say the crit build has a perfect vorpal, so before youd have 1 crit at NO severity bonus so
5.5k*8 + 1 crit at 5.5k * (1.75) for the crit. This means of NINE encounters youd deal a VERY generous damage of 53.6k damage.
That ISNT even factoring another weapon enchant like a perfect Terror which gives an average of 6-9% more damage + necrotic damage but well be HUGELY in favor of the crit here just to show the numbers.
Now lets say we add P vorp AND the 1 more crit of 9 encounters.
7*5.5k PLUS TWO CRITS 10.1k (2.25) = 61.225k damage, so out of NINE encounters you added a pretty big upgrade of 7.6k Damage adding BOTH a perfect Vorpal AND the R9 Azures.
thats pretty abundantly generous HEAVILY favoring the crit/vorp numbers as I hope you see above.
Now,
Compare CURRENT TENEBROUS:
9 encounters right? well whats the CD on 9 encounters?
Bull Charge: 9.4
Lunging: 6.3
Frontline: 15.8
So in 28.2 seconds of play youd get
3 bull charge, 4.5 Lunging (well even round this to 5 here) and 1 Frontline. Thats the FASTEST youd get 9 encounters. 28.2 seconds.
I have shown the math before about on AVERAGE Tenebrous procs are 12-13 seconds between the FIRS TWO procs. In theory you can get procs as low as 1 second apart, but in our "PVP DPS of 28.2 seconds" youd average atleast two procs and VERY possibly three full sets of procs (maybe atleast 1/3rd of the time)
so what is JUST TWO sets of procs at 32k HP and lets say 80% HP on a GF with only SIX Tenebs? 4608 per SET of procs. SO 2x that = 9,216 damage at 80% HP. THREE sets of procs = 13,824
SO IN CONCLUSION:
PRE NERF TENEBROUS DAMAGE.
Being MAXIMALLY beneficial to Azure R9s, Counting NO weapon enchant on the tene build, counting a PERFECT vorpal on the crit side and EVEN rounding up everypossible way to benefit the crit build, using a TRAINING DUMMY damage with NO DR, AND using 80% HP procs in teneb damage.
The added Crit+Vorpal damage over NINE encounters ASSUMING they are spammed as fast as possible = 7.6k Damage.
The added Teneb damage = anywhere from 9216-13824
Well whats the "factor" there?
Teneb Damage is giving a 21% damage INCREASE over the P Vorpal damage and its VERY possible it can grant even an 80% increase in damage over P Vorpal builds.
Now this scenario is just that, ONE possible scenario, But I hope you can see the math is HEAVILY weighted on the side of Vorpal builds, YET! The tenebrous damage is OVER 20% more damage...
Where is breaks down? If you are at REALLY low HP, then obviously youll do more damage with NON tene enchants.
Just ONE perspective on how Tene enchants work TODAY and WHY they needed a nerf.
Comments
We may not have agreed about things in the past, but I agree with everything you just said. Very well put, and while I have and AM an advocate of the nerf, I think and hope the nerf will bring about more competitive pvp and I think its a necessary change for this game.
My only beef with the enchant is that its still going to be VERY bad in PVE and I would love to see some alternative to make it MORE balanced, just different than stack stacking.
Having enchants like tenebrous create a divide between pvp and pve that I would love to see closed. I have an entirely different set for PVE because tenebrous are so bad...
There are alot of ways to change the enchant that would not make it game breaking and could potentially be very fun! I mean something as simple as "Hits deal 3% of weapon damage as necrotic damage" would be cool, Much like the terror enchant does. This would STILL be a very good enchant.
Or if Tenebrous just gave FLAT % boosts, 2% crit or 2% arp on greaters and 1% on normals with a vendor for lessers at 100k AD each.
OR even enchants that give + ability points, like a vendor that sells +1Con and +1 Dex enchant for sale via tenebrous you could then choose between +str/+dex roll enchants etc....
OR just rework how tenebrous damage is done, should be calculated on base HP instead of total, Cd reduced, able to proc on multiple enemies, etc...
The current proposition fixes the PVP issue, but still makes the enchants worthless for PVE, it would be NICE (IMO) to have that divide reduced or gone completely....
I am saying that because of how lethal Tenebrous are in a Perma Stealth build, even though I personally feel that we are of the same caliber of player, he had an advantage over me, that wasn't because of skill, it was because of the way Tenebrous work.
You can blow up and highlight any text of mine you want, I made it very clear saying I feel him and I are on the same level, and even after the change, it will be a coin toss, or a matter of whose ping is better that day when we face each other 1 vs 1.
You must have missed the part when I said if you want to flame don't bother.
Explain to me how you feel that Tenebrous enchants are even remotely competitive at all, when nothing is able to stop them.
hmm..where did i flame? unless disagreeing with you= flame.
I just wanted to highlight how you said that you both are same level of skill..and then you went 180 degree change and said " but he won cuz of tene and SF ". It sounded more like an excuse more than a justification.
If you want to prove something, put numbers or videos of you fighting him. "Feelings" doesn't prove anything on interwebz.
Most of you know Blacksheep TR from Enemy Team (used to be TSB). He posted a pre nerf Lurkers video that alot of people watched, where he was NOT using tene and blowing people up in pvp.
Then he switched to Tene, and made a new video. Here is a quote he made about his Current TR with Tenebrous versus his old TR without,
"Actually im 10x more stronger than on the video.
The Blacksheep from now days would kill the Blacksheep from video over and over again."
So to say it again, his tenebrous Build is 10x more stronger than his old build without tenebrous. Thats his view about the build and the enchant.
Now I dont know about 10x stronger, but stronger? clearly.
Alysin your post highlights this as well.
If they will be affected by DR, then would their damage be affected by armor pen and mitigation debuffs? I.E if i have 20% armor pen and 3% mitigation debuff, and my opponent has 40% DR...will i ignore 40-23 = 17% of his DRs...leaving him with only 17% DR against my tene?
From the way they interact with barkshield, it means they will interact with DR/Deflect the same way as 7x individual procs?
But lets speculate, more fun that way.
Besides, you can't just expect people to be nice when you provoke and throw empty accusation at them don't you think?
and why should I pay attention to what you say? unlike you I contributed to this thread when it was created and I've been sharing information since then, heck in general I always share information regarding game mechanics, you and MANY others never created any threads demanding nerfs to tenes, but now all of a sudden you just jump on the band wagon like you knew it all along.
You don't even know how they work, what 50/50 guessing games they create, that's why I listen to ayroux and others that HAVE tenes and are against it, these "rebalance" threads (remind you this thread was created by LS guild leader to help people combat tenes, oh the irony) were created after PTR event, they came from participants, so yeah i feel i have a say when i was there with them.
Yeah I have to say Lantiss is pretty "**** friendly" in that hes pretty open about builds enchants and what not, even offering advice to people AND offering to stream (while he was playing more actively).
Its really sad people want to come in here and bash/flame about the tene nerf. What I find amusing is that people dont take the time to figure out exactly who is talking about what to even see if their opinion should be considered valid or not.
So many times that I posted about tenes, it was met with massive flame first accusing me of being some **** who lost in pvp and now came to QQ on the forums.
Ive had tenes for longer than probably most people in this game that still play....
Lantiss is another one of those, and id say that out of all the people that play this game, his perspective and opinion SHOULD definitely warrant some weight because of his pretty extensive knowledge of the game and experience.
Now, Im pretty sure Lantiss and I have disagreed on many things since this games inception, but that doesnt mean we cant respect eachothers opinions.
I agree that we should be able to be civil about all this, sometimes issues get heated especially when people try and brag on a nerf forum, and people post stupid stuff, so lets just all move on and get to the issue at hand...
Tenebrous feedback to the DEVS.
it seems like any new thread about it gets moved in here and unfortunately now its so many pages of text, the DEVs probably wont read this.
single enchant? this is the MAIN reason this enchant is considered so strong, because back then people overlooked it, before people understood how cryptic trolls us with gear scores and diminishing returns, anything that is "greater" wasn't considered so good. mind you greater plague fire was better than vorpal, not because of its amazing stats, but because it stacked. where do you see any plague fire threads? you don't, because it was "fixed" (they broke it) in time, but people still bought vorpal and dark 10s, because hey if it goes up to 10 it means its better right? who the hell knew about DR caps and all the hidden stacking stats back then.
I assure you if we go back 4 months ago and people knowing about this enchant, we will either have everyone use it or removed from the game by now, it would be considered just a standard pvp enchant.
Lol are you kidding me? People realized how powerful tenes were since the first week of the game. Only pvers cared more about gearscore. Regardless it's time for the enchant to change. It will still be powerful, just more in line with everything else in the game
That's why you have so many of them right? when you say "people realized" do you mean the same people that realized that its possible to regen without elixirs? man ill tell you what, go back through the class forums and lookup when the current meta builds surfaced up, then match them to any high profile premade that attracted alot of forum replies and tell me what was posted first.
It's easy to pretend you know everything but up untill last PTR no one was using boulder spec on a CW, literally one guy was using it and he didn't publish it. people level up only when they meet greater challenge, that's when they push themselves and try and innovate.
it took me 2 secs to dig up an old post by ayroux, now compare the date:
ayroux's take on GWF spec
steroidz take on GWF spec
not to put ayroux on the spot, just giving an example of someone who adapted the build very well and caught my attention when he made the pvp video.
haha i know. I think they were just defending me without actually knowing what you said. i deleted part of the post. sorry for their misunderstanding =p. I tried looking up matches I had against EoA that were arranged and this is the only one i could find through synozeer's youtube. Think we were trying out Lion and Wargasm. Overall it was a good match and I definitely died to somebody but can't really tell from his perspective without sitting through the whole video looking for my name to pop up lol
Yah that was the game
You guys had a great rotation going on and we couldn't seem to get back on top of it. Lion was helping you cap our point quite often which was a nice little fisting for me =P
Don was having trouble with War, talking after the match I think we should have switched us early in the match. Because of his regen he may have done better fighting you, and I may have done better fighting War because of ItC and my deflect/dps.
Got crushed, learned some <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, had fun, wished we had a DC, lol
Until next time, cheers!
Just to be fair, I had tenes on my first character (GF) LONG before I did the GWF build. I wont say I came up with it myself, but I had hit 60 and pvpd a while (4-5 weeks) with greater tenes on my Str/Con GF build (because Dex DIDNT give arp then) then came across a REALLY hard to kill GWF in pvp, asked him about his build and hp, and thought dang I bet that would be perfect with my tenes then rolled a GWF to test it out.
Lantiss has a really good point because I didnt even figure out Regen until about a month or so after that as well playing around with gear and figuring out the scrappers/titan combo was the best, then noticing the regen on that and started adding more and more...
I played since OB and was very lucky to have figured out Tenebs were OP VERY early... Although the builds I favor today, look nothing like the builds that were around back then...
I mean a perfect example is "Envy" a GF that thought he was "god" told everyone to roll Timeless as a GF, I never liked the set because the math never added up, but thats an example of the "popular" build that was out at the time.
Then "Uncag3d" from Lemonade Stand posted he was the "Best GF in the game" after challenging people on the PTR and drew alot of attention to Tene/Con builds but STILL no regen.
THEN later Steroidz drew attention to his "impossible to kill" GWF even later AFTER the GWF buff that made them OP...
SO yeah alot of evolution in builds, people may have noticed 1 enchant was OP but didnt realize how to build AROUND that enchant until months well into that game.... And are STILL learning to do that.
I hope with this tene nerf well see more and more development into alternative builds, I know a GWF that is "underwraps" right now and working on.... Maybe itll surface soon
Just so you know those are 2 different TR's. The pre-nerf video was a different account and he was unhappy with his stats and made a new one. The new perfect stat TR would beat the old one hands down with the same exact gear on each...
Not to mention his new TR has ~32k HP so he is kinda forced into tene's with that build. Lol also the pre-nerf Blacksheep would 1 shot the post nerf blacksheep, hence his 60k crit video.
@ everyone saying tene is so obviously broken: Are all other damage types that ignore a % of DR broken? Have you never played a game with damage types before, some being more effective? Can any other enchantments damage be deflected? Why is it ok that soulforged has no counter, guaranteed 5 second invulnerability is not OP? lol at that one.
Many of our guild are in the process or have already switched out tene's for R9-10 enchants, because they perform better in pvp. You can cry and whine, post fudged math numbers, say how OP tene is until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that R9-10 perform outright better in all aspects except while enemy is in SF on certain builds.
Are there classes that tene will perform better? Of course. TR's simply offer too much regen on items, and the ability to take advantage of it from stealth to not have high HP and high regen, which then lends itself to a tene build.
GWF, CW, DC (obviously), and GF with certain builds, can all benefit more from R9-10's depending on their builds.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
The OP-ness of an enchant is different depending on who's looking at it though. Is vorpal OP? 2 TR's have a 1v1, both have greater vorpal - vorpal isn't OP in their eyes. 2 TR's have a 1v1, 1 has a perfect vorpal, the other has a lesser - OMG vorpal OP!!!!!11one is the response from an unexperienced PvP'er.
Someone with R5's is going to perceive R10's to be OP (because he doesn't have them) Someone with no armor enchant is going to perceive P. soulforged as OP b/c that player gets 5 seconds of invuln while he gets 0 (and again because he doesn't have one) Pretty much any expensive gear is going to be OP in the minds of those with lesser gear.
This is why opinions of those in normal enchants and R6-7's is of very little value in this thread, because they simply don't know what they are talking about when it comes Tenebrous and top tier PvP.
OMG Cribs is so elitist! Actually I'm just being serious. I'm sure that someone could pull up an old post of mine where I'm calling for tene nerf. I used to post about it all the time, and call for it, because it was what was destroying me in PvP in my eyes. That was before I joined a PvP guild, and all I was doing was my couple dominations a day for the daily. I had literally no clue about top tier PvP gear and I'm so glad my opinion wasn't heard, b/c it was foolish and came from inexperience!
Just like this thread's original purpose, you simply need to learn how to combat Tene's to see that they are not as strong as people make them out to be.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
This is were I disagree. My characters may only have rank 5s and 7s, but I pvp a lot. One of the reasons I only have rank 5s and 7s because the little amount of time I get to spend playing is spent pvping instead of farming and doing dungeons. I do both pugs and guild groups. I am pretty much C team in my guild because I am still upgrading my enchants and working on correcting mistakes with gear and enchants. But playing nightly with my guild, I have faced some of the best players and held my own. I have faced in group vs group games players with both rank 10s and Tenebrous, and the difference is pretty stark.
I have faced a rogue with rank 10 darks and ridiculous ArPen, which you would think would be ideal against a GWF. And I admit he did a ton of damage. He also died a lot faster. The difference in facing a GWF with Tenebrous vs one without is stark as well. The times I faced Ayroux on his GWF, he could ripped me apart much fast than any GWFs with high level darks.
Even with rank 5 darks, my GF and GWF already max out Resist Ignore against Rogues and CWs. Upgrading those to rank 10s would do nothing for me. Power is so bad for GWF, it is not even worth switching out for my GWF. Crit diminishes so fast, that gain would be nice, not come close to what I could gain from Tenebrous. My GF is more burst damage focused than tank, so there is an argument to be made he would not get as much out of Tenebrous than ArPen/Crit.
I get it, Barkshield counters Tenebrous because it counters that initial advantage the Tenebrous user gains. Yet then metagame becomes about enchants more so than it does classes. The "entry" level becomes first have your tenebrous or barkshield enchant first before anything else really gets taken into consideration. Not to mention that the damage you gain from every enchant you can put in an offensive slot can be Dodged/Reduced through DR/Deflected, except Tenebrous. I have met builds that do a good bit more damage than Tenebrous do, but there survivability is no where even close.
Again I am not for nerfing Tenebrous into the ground and making them useless. If the nerf is too much, hopefully they will adjust it before going live. It should be on par with rank 10s in my opinion. I don't think it will be too much, but it is all speculation until they finally put it on preview for testing.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I find this a much better solution than any kinds of nerfs.
Just make those ladders and ranking systems already, and also give us dual spec. I am not willing to gimp my char for PvE just to freeze some guy faster or survive longer. I want to switch as I like between specs, whenever needed.
Also having a ladder system will allow the devs to see what needs balancing. Too many 3 GWF/GF/DC teams on top (just an example)? Ok, maybe this comp needs rebalancing and tweaking. Ideally people should desire each class in a team, because each class should be essential and irreplaceable.
Until these things happen in NWO, for me PvP is exactly as Kripp said months ago (and nothing has changed... so lame) - For the Lulz.
I fully agree. You need a point of reference to state what's OP. If a guy with R10 and Perfects is unleashed in against a PuG group doing 4 matches for the dailies, it's going to end up in tears. If he runs against other such people it's going to end up in a good matchup that will end up (most likely) to the most skilled+lucky.
Can't stress enough how much a PvP ranked ladder is needed for the game. PvP sells, and it's definitely the major source of getting ideas for new builds and combos.
+1000 internets from me.
You pretty much nailed it,
I have a Perf Vorp TR (see Curse PvP Vid) and I can spit out amazing damage without tenebrous, but a tenebrous TR will beat me in a 1v1 most of the time because they can sacrifice damage for additional stealth and suvivability relying on tene to deal damage.
I have all Dark 8s, and upgrading to ALL R9 Darks on him gives LESS than 1% damage boost... Now I admit I am pretty hard into Dim returns on Dark stacking, arguably more so than most classes but each R8-R9 upgrade spits out about .15% more damage and only on higher DR targets.
The difference between R7s - R8s is about 1.5% damage difference...
So.... The difference between even R7s and R10 players is NOT that much (maybe like 3% damage), however, revolving a build around tenebrous damage, that is easily and arguably the strongest TR build in the game.
Power? well 2k power = a 7% damage boost on my TR, tested this ALOT. So is stacking R10 radiants better than tene? No way, not even better than Darks.
Crit? Well most TR gear gives ALOT of crit, I have to get 300 points to get <1% more crit. So 2k more crit would result in about 4-5% more crit.
Anyway you slice it, Tenebrous pre nerf is WAY stronger. Sure there are builds to counter it, however its a night and day difference.
Cribstaxxx referenced how vorpal vs vorpal noone complains but lesser vs perfect then people scream OP.
The issue is you only addressed an analogy that doesnt fit the bill even, AND didnt address the enchant itself. You have not once offered an argument about the enchant that shows its OP. Why does it not work? Because you can throw ANY truly OP item in the place of Tenebs in your argument, and say "if each player has it, its not OP, versus a ****, they cry foul" it has no weight whatsoever on the merits of the enchant OR if it truly is OP.
Barkshield does NOT counter tenebs. It CAN in some situations, but it all depends on WHEN the tenebs proc and WHEN you have charges. I also want to point out that while Tenebs CAN go through SF, often times, they dont because its on CD. YOur also talking about 4-5 seconds out of ALOT of combat... while its pretty strong, its not incredibly gamebreaking...
I havnt seen you do any math or calculations on the forums that are reflective of the enchant today versus R10 darks OR the enchant post nerf versus R10 darks, you just assert your opinion. I, however, have shown BOTH and STILL think the enchant is BIS and will STILL use it post nerf as well.
Which is why the solution is to re-release tene's in future boxes not punish all those that have already purchased them.
@kaylos - That is exactly the position that I was in when I was very foolishly calling for Tene nerfs when I had no clue about them. Also I'm sorry but you simply can't expect to have very casual play time, spend no money, and not meet people far more geared than you. I have a full time job and am married, and I didn't spend very much on the game until the server merge b/c there just weren't that many opponents on beholder. Now that everyone is on one shard however I put some money and more effort into some new characters b/c I enjoy the PvP in this game. Lol you think I'll ever spend any more money if they nerf all the items I bought 2 weeks later? Hell no.
@persephone - yes exactly. But while we are waiting for said ladders I have already organized a continuing ranking tournament for any guild that wishes to participate, details in the PvP ranking thread in gameplay section
@ayroux - you simply don't perceive it as OP b/c you have equally strong gear. To someone with no armor enchant, his opponent getting 5 seconds of invulnerable is BS and totally stupid OP. To someone that has no weapon enchant you getting 50% stronger crits is HUGE, and way stronger than he could ever hope to achieve without one. Again I have told you that R9-10 perform better than Tene for some builds and we have multiple guild members switching to them already. Math cannot be used to calculate effectiveness of Tene's, there are too many variables (current HP, team comp, your targets DR, your stat difference with and w/o tene's, proc timing, etc...) Math aside, R9-10 perform BETTER in PvP for certain builds, and for certain builds tene perform better.
We will be more than happy to post video's of us crushing guilds with tene's in our new, and more effective, non-tene builds once everyone gets their gear.
Matter of fact I would be more than happy to host a Tournament (other than the ranking tourney) in which our entire team will use 0 tene's and all other teams may use as many as they want. That would more than prove that skill, strategy, rotation > gear hands down.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It would be nice if the game would have a spectator mode so I can watch live.
As for taking part in the tournament, meh. From the few premades I've played in, I know I'm too vulnerable to be a good asset to my team, too many savage melees running amok wreaking squishes. Just watch the PvP videos from LS: "get the CW, get the CW" lol, always first priority. How about: "Let the CW live, he's a cool person" instead
I am a realistic person and know the limits of this char... which I plan on improving but it will take a long time to do so. I will watch the videos from the tournament when posted though, hope to see your dwarf mage in action.
That is an assumption to say I spend no money. I do actually spend money, but I am not willing to spend 100 dollars per Greater Tenebrous (well they are down to 2,4 mill AD atm, so probably closer 75 dollars). I could churn nightmare boxes and reduce the cost a little by selling everything but Tene's off, but that would is not an easier route either given that nightmare box supply is limited as well.
I am currently upgrading my rank 5s to 7s, and then will upgrade them to 8s. This will give me a noticeable, but hardly the large boost Tenes would. On my GF, 300 extra ArPen/Crit each from rank 5s to 8s gives me around 3.5% more resist ignore and about 2.5% crit (I am actually almost at rank 7s with him). Very nice I must say, but is a marginal boost relatively speaking.
I would not be against them making Tenebrous more available again, just re-releasing them in lockboxes would remove the need to pay for lockboxes and increase the supply to bring the price down. Given the corner they painted themselves into with people spending real money specifically for these enchants, that would have been the route I would have expected. I prefer re-balancing them to be inline with rank 10s, but would find greater availability acceptable. Heck, mayne even make lessers available for ridiculous amounts of glory so they aren't easily farmable, but available to the people that would use them, pvpers. But what then of all the people that spent a ton on them and now others are getting them for cheaper? Wouldn't that simply be similar to bringing them in line with rank 10s?
edit: There are a few builds better off without Tene's. But if Tene's are brought in line with rank 9s and 10s, it would swap. There would be a few builds better off with Tenebrous, but there would be more builds viable without. And those builds wouldn't require the investment Tenebrous require to get started since getting rank 7s isn't too hard, and the jump from 7s to 10s isn't nearly as big as the jump from normal Tenebrous to Greater Tenebrous.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I simple DO perceive Tene is OP, because I HAVE them and hav used them for MONTHS. We are not comparing and I have NEVER compared NO enchants versus enchants. I have said MANY times for MONTHS now that enchants ARE end game gear. But comparing R10s currently on most builds versus Tene is (I would say) the difference between a P. vorpal versus a G. Vorpal. Can either person win? Sure! Can either peson perform equally well in PVP? Sure! Can a team full of G. Vorpals beat a team full for P. Vorpals? SURE!
But that still doesnt address the math of P. Vorp is > G. Vorp. Or in reality about tenebs, G.Tene > R10s.
There are not too many variables, there are ALOT of ways to measure this. Ill give just TWO easy ways to compute this.
1) Poor mans method: Record just ONE match of PVP, play it back, and look at each rotation of damage you deal, look at how much damage in teneb damage you dealt compared to your rotations, and then run the simple math equation assuming you have R9 Darks. Its pretty easy to calculate a flat % damage boost on encounters and you can even assume it affects ALL damage eventhough itll only really affect 3 of 5 classes.
2) REALLY simple: Go use ACT to record a few PVP matches in full. Use math to figure out how much more % of damage youd do if you ran Dark R9s-R10s, then multiple that by the total NON tene damage you did, and compare that damage added to your teneb damage. This gives you a pretty accurate way to measure them.
To your last point, Ill FIX your quote, "strategy, rotation > marginal gear difference hands down."
You could take lemonade stand wearing 5k GS and a total pug group with tenebs and theyd probably lose. There is a point in which at high lvl pvp the marginal difference in gear can easily be overcome by better tactics, but tactics can only overcome so much of a difference in gear. Like I said above, Tene vs Non-Tene builds is akin to a P vorp versus a G vorp.
@ Kaylos- You pretty much nailed it:
edit: There are a few builds better off without Tene's. But if Tene's are brought in line with rank 9s and 10s, it would swap. There would be a few builds better off with Tenebrous, but there would be more builds viable without. And those builds wouldn't require the investment Tenebrous require to get started since getting rank 7s isn't too hard, and the jump from 7s to 10s isn't nearly as big as the jump from normal Tenebrous to Greater Tenebrous.
Lol yeah CW is always target #1, but that's because they have such amazing burst damage and CC
@kaylos - I know this has nothing to do with the argument but if you have extra money from zen or whatever I would suggest investing in greater or even normal fey blessings. You can get a utility neck slot so even with 4 normals you'll have 8% chance, which is more than enough with the ~25 second CD the enchant has. You can farm a R7 in an hour or less, so you could quickly have R8's, it's pretty awesome!
@ayroux - you say that tene's are hands down OP and better than any R10 enchant, but then you turn around and say that skill is only > marginal gear differences. So if we faced a team with full tene's with a team having no tene's we should be decimated by your huge gear advantage right? This is why I want to put together these matches, it simply proves that tene's are not the huge advantage that they are made out to be, and that R9-10 enchants can be just as viable and in some cases more powerful.
Also wearing full lvl 60 blue's you can easily attain 9.3k (my cleric in 100% blue's was 9.3k for a long time heh) and with boons well over 10.5k. I would also wager that LS could beat pugs if LS were clad in all blue's with no tene's, have you seen the pugs lately?
How can you both say Tene vs. non-tene is akin to G. vorpal vs. P vorpal and then still hold the position that they are OP?? 12% crit severity is meaningless compared to skill, strategy, and rotation of the player.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
BASELINE:
Arguably, or atleast in my opnion, the best non-tenebrous GF build is arp stacking along with crit stacking + a perfect vorpal.
They will run 2pc knights cap set (+400 arp) and 2pc High Gen set (+450 arp).
This along with rings/neck/belt etc PLUS a 24/25 Dex roll will net you with 28.3% arp - 29.3% arp depending on the fire buff.
With the boon/neck/rings/belt youll get around 913 crit. This is a 7.4% crit bonus. Added on a 5% base and 2/3 feats this nets you at 14.4% crit.
ENCHANTS:
Now, you look at your SIX offensive slots.
Lets say R9s in each, and were stacking crit here so Azure.
260*6= 1560 crit. Well that added to our 913 = 2473 crit. I ran some numbers on stacking and have these values to play against:
2293 = 14.8%
2597 = 15.9%
So about 304 = 1.1% crit. We are about 100 less than 15.9 so call it .33% crit less so well put it at 15.6% crit, pretty fair and more than generous.
Well if our base line PRE Azure was 7.4% and our NEW stat bonus was 15.6% meaning a difference of 8.2% crit! So 6 R9 Azure enchants gets us 8.2% more crit.
BUT WAIT!
We can give up .1% prone duration and get 1% more crit too!
Before I was at 14.4% crit, we added 8.2% more crit from 6 R9 Azure, AND added 1% more from feats, this puts us at a whopping
23.6% CRIT
Ok so what does that mean?
I WAS at 14.4% crit, now at 23.6% lets just for fun ROUND and say its a 10% difference.
so if we attacked 100 times before wed get about 14 crits, now well get 24 crits. Pretty cool huh. Thats 10 more crits of 100 OR 1 more crit out of TEN attacks. We have three encounters so lets be even more generous and say you get 1 more crit than you did before out of THREE full encounter rotations.
Before = 9 encounters = 1 crit on average, NOW we have 2 crit on average. Cool Beans.
In a rotation encounter you have 3 encounters that each hit a dummy between 4-5.5k (at zero DR) SO well just use our 5.5K number for ALL of them to make it even More infavor of crit.
So 5.5k x 3 encounters. Now lest say the crit build has a perfect vorpal, so before youd have 1 crit at NO severity bonus so
5.5k*8 + 1 crit at 5.5k * (1.75) for the crit. This means of NINE encounters youd deal a VERY generous damage of 53.6k damage.
That ISNT even factoring another weapon enchant like a perfect Terror which gives an average of 6-9% more damage + necrotic damage but well be HUGELY in favor of the crit here just to show the numbers.
Now lets say we add P vorp AND the 1 more crit of 9 encounters.
7*5.5k PLUS TWO CRITS 10.1k (2.25) = 61.225k damage, so out of NINE encounters you added a pretty big upgrade of 7.6k Damage adding BOTH a perfect Vorpal AND the R9 Azures.
thats pretty abundantly generous HEAVILY favoring the crit/vorp numbers as I hope you see above.
Now,
Compare CURRENT TENEBROUS:
9 encounters right? well whats the CD on 9 encounters?
Bull Charge: 9.4
Lunging: 6.3
Frontline: 15.8
So in 28.2 seconds of play youd get
3 bull charge, 4.5 Lunging (well even round this to 5 here) and 1 Frontline. Thats the FASTEST youd get 9 encounters. 28.2 seconds.
I have shown the math before about on AVERAGE Tenebrous procs are 12-13 seconds between the FIRS TWO procs. In theory you can get procs as low as 1 second apart, but in our "PVP DPS of 28.2 seconds" youd average atleast two procs and VERY possibly three full sets of procs (maybe atleast 1/3rd of the time)
so what is JUST TWO sets of procs at 32k HP and lets say 80% HP on a GF with only SIX Tenebs? 4608 per SET of procs. SO 2x that = 9,216 damage at 80% HP. THREE sets of procs = 13,824
SO IN CONCLUSION:
PRE NERF TENEBROUS DAMAGE.
Being MAXIMALLY beneficial to Azure R9s, Counting NO weapon enchant on the tene build, counting a PERFECT vorpal on the crit side and EVEN rounding up everypossible way to benefit the crit build, using a TRAINING DUMMY damage with NO DR, AND using 80% HP procs in teneb damage.
The added Crit+Vorpal damage over NINE encounters ASSUMING they are spammed as fast as possible = 7.6k Damage.
The added Teneb damage = anywhere from 9216-13824
Well whats the "factor" there?
Teneb Damage is giving a 21% damage INCREASE over the P Vorpal damage and its VERY possible it can grant even an 80% increase in damage over P Vorpal builds.
Now this scenario is just that, ONE possible scenario, But I hope you can see the math is HEAVILY weighted on the side of Vorpal builds, YET! The tenebrous damage is OVER 20% more damage...
Where is breaks down? If you are at REALLY low HP, then obviously youll do more damage with NON tene enchants.
Just ONE perspective on how Tene enchants work TODAY and WHY they needed a nerf.