I don't like this idea... There's a beauty on everyone being slighty different and unique. If everyone can be everything at any moment, the game gets dull. However I understand, your point and your frustration. My opinion and suggestion? Stop being so paranoic. You're not automatically bad/useless just because you are 1% less effective on some mechanic. That's actually the beauty of it. Because you're 1% worse at something, you must be 1% better at other thing. And that's cool, that's unique.
My Class is Warlord ... "Onward to victory! They cannot stand before us!"
Warlords are accomplished and competent battle leaders. Warlords stand on the front line issuing commands and bolstering their allies while leading the battle with weapon in hand. Warlords know how to rally a team to win a fight.
And that my friends is the /thread to the topic. Once they figure out how to implement racial changes they will, because PW is not going to turn down a money-making option anymore than Blizzard, SOE, or any of the other companies currently offering the service.
(I'd pay too)
Regardless of how much I usually dislike greedy Devs/corps, paying for the feature in WoW for example never bothered me and I considered it money well spent and added longevity to the game for me.
But yes, ALOT of people want this and alot of people would pay for it, it seems, so will the real slim whiners please shut up.... :P
I don't like this idea... There's a beauty on everyone being slighty different and unique. If everyone can be everything at any moment, the game gets dull. However I understand, your point and your frustration. My opinion and suggestion? Stop being so paranoic. You're not automatically bad/useless just because you are 1% less effective on some mechanic. That's actually the beauty of it. Because you're 1% worse at something, you must be 1% better at other thing. And that's cool, that's unique.
This is a sweet post, and one I actually appreciate personally, but I really don't see how this would really work in an MMO...
And it's not only about being "paranoic", or afraid of being bad/useless because of min-maxing stats - there are other reasons for wanting it aswell, like youre tired of being tiefling CW nr 210324334 and maybe someone wants to be a halfing, regretting their initial decision, but have bought zen companions or bankslots and earned t2 or whatever so its not "just make a new char, leveling is fast".
The real beauty of it, to me, is that everyone can be what they want to be in an MMO, even change if they get fed up with looking at themselves or just want to try something new - and race changing would further that, not hinder it. THATS cool, thats unique.
One can also add the reason that theyve delayed Drow race for quite some time now and not everyone sits on a 60 waiting to roll new chars until their favorite race come out - a race change would solve this aswell.
What I see is someone that has played a charator and now wishes to chage to some thing else with out having to begin from scratch.
Not saying just you as I know many want this, but I for one don't.
To me it is like going to school and getting a degree, later deciding it was the wrong one so lets just buy a different one and not have to learn what is needed for it.
It is not like buying a car and not liking it so buy a new one.
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rickfrankMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
Cons:
Players who strongly care about lore / role playing would not like this.
Actually you just need a druid in town that will cast reincarnation on you and it's now lore acceptable. granted the reincarnation spell has a random chance of each race, but if you had a wizard cast wish on you then had a druid cast reincarnate something tells me you'd be able to choose your race, provided your dm was being reasonable
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rickfrankMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
I have one lore beef with the game involving races: in Forgotten Realms, they are not called wood elves; they are called moon elves. This is a small thing, I know, but a thing nonetheless. I mean, if you have the license, you might as well stick to the lore especially when it doesn't affect coding or gameplay. Simply sticking to the generic 4E lore instead of incorporating FR material is just creative laziness.
FR has wood elves as well, there are more than 5 different types of elves in the Fr campaign world
Yet you give no reasons why NOT to be one of them? Can you give a single argument against it that hasn't already been blown to pieces by logic and reason in this thread
If you call MMO players (and people in todays world in general) self-entitlement to whine and cry until they get what they want "logic and reason" then cool beans bro! I don't play the elementary "logic" game of comparing apples and hand-grenades.
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting within the D&D world and allowing permanent race changes in the D&D world is blasphemy. Obviously the devs currently feel that way as well and hopefully won't allow it, but of course the almighty dollar will end up reigning supreme and it will be implemented eventually.
It's just nice to see at least one form of decision making still alive in MMO's these days. Once race changes are allowed the cookie-cutters take a static shape and will create another form of player alienation for those that don't conform. Not a problem for me because I don't play often outside of my social circle but once you start thinking less about just what YOU want one begins to realize there are more issues with race changes than has "already been blown to pieces by logic and reason in this thread".
What I see is someone that has played a charator and now wishes to chage to some thing else with out having to begin from scratch.
Not saying just you as I know many want this, but I for one don't.
To me it is like going to school and getting a degree, later deciding it was the wrong one so lets just buy a different one and not have to learn what is needed for it.
It is not like buying a car and not liking it so buy a new one.
Sorry, but those were some baaad analogies... so far, way, off.
Also, with your logic you should disallow respecs? Appearence changers? Only have one companion? Where does it end?
Using this is a free choice, would generate alot of money for the Devs and make alot of people happy, without having a real negative effect on the community, but even add longevity to the game.
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lordsknight1585Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
FR has wood elves as well, there are more than 5 different types of elves in the Fr campaign world
5-day-late scold, I was about to do this, too. Not to mention, since we are talking about 4e, in the Realms "Elves" are Wood Elves...Moon Elves are "Eladrin" (Which Neverwinter Online does not have...yet?)
If you call MMO players (and people in todays world in general) self-entitlement to whine and cry until they get what they want "logic and reason" then cool beans bro! I don't play the elementary "logic" game of comparing apples and hand-grenades.
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting within the D&D world and allowing permanent race changes in the D&D world is blasphemy. Obviously the devs currently feel that way as well and hopefully won't allow it, but of course the almighty dollar will end up reigning supreme and it will be implemented eventually.
It's just nice to see at least one form of decision making still alive in MMO's these days. Once race changes are allowed the cookie-cutters take a static shape and will create another form of player alienation for those that don't conform. Not a problem for me because I don't play often outside of my social circle but once you start thinking less about just what YOU want one begins to realize there are more issues with race changes than has "already been blown to pieces by logic and reason in this thread".
What I called whiners here were the small minority in this thread, the nay sayers, in no way representing "MMO Players" in general. So either you misread me or misunderstood, or youre just flailing against the air for no appearent reason, so cool beans right back at ya bro.
And regards to you comparing the logic and reason sometimes found in this 25 page thread that I mentioned to "comparing apples and hand-grenades", well.... I really don't know what to say to that. :P
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting within the D&D world and D&D allows race changes. Reincarnate, Wish spells/rituals, DM decisions.. I could go on, but if you want more reasons back pedal in this thread abit.
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting in a MMORPG game, where countless rules have been bent, broken, removed or added, but clearly this one would be pure blashpemy.... Yeah...
It's nice to see how you think a Race Change option would somehow make cookie cutters or min maxers reign supreme and alienate players that don't "conform". Way to scream "FIIIIREEE!!!" over a lit match. :P
Personally I played WoW in both casual and "hardcore" raiding guilds, where min-maxing was everything, but not even there was anyone excluded because of ingame race bonuses, not even in the nr 1 EU progression guild during it's time. But hey, what do I know - clearly the future is an open book to you, so bring out the doom sayers and dark prophets and we'll all torch burning Race Changers.
Lastly; thank you for giving me advice on how to think to aid me with realizing stuff and all that.
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kobuirisgamesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
If you've never seen someone change race in D&D, you haven't played enough. "Lore-wise" it's fine.
Maturity, Fair Play, Family Friendly. Sound good? Apply today at www.guildmedieval.com
nwrogueMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2013
Yiiiiikes, 2 new races announced today, which means 2-3 more races unlocked for each player in the future.... which means a lot of people will be irked if race/gender changes don't happen in the future and they have to reroll all over to have their current main as the new race.
Milla Jovovich(Rogue)/Tilda Swinton(Cleric) - Guild Leader of CatAssTrophy on Beholder
This is a sweet post, and one I actually appreciate personally, but I really don't see how this would really work in an MMO...
And it's not only about being "paranoic", or afraid of being bad/useless because of min-maxing stats - there are other reasons for wanting it aswell, like youre tired of being tiefling CW nr 210324334 and maybe someone wants to be a halfing, regretting their initial decision, but have bought zen companions or bankslots and earned t2 or whatever so its not "just make a new char, leveling is fast".
The real beauty of it, to me, is that everyone can be what they want to be in an MMO, even change if they get fed up with looking at themselves or just want to try something new - and race changing would further that, not hinder it. THATS cool, thats unique.
One can also add the reason that theyve delayed Drow race for quite some time now and not everyone sits on a 60 waiting to roll new chars until their favorite race come out - a race change would solve this aswell.
I could only think of people *****ing about stats, and thats understandable, they're just that paranoic.
Your vision however is the complete opposite of mine, and quite frankly, in terms of game design, it's flawed. I've seen big companies do this kind of mistake, and they all failed.
What's the point of decisions when they don't have any weight? There is none. So, if your decision doesn't matter, devs shouldn't even bother to put them in the game right. Just put a button over the character screen and *poof*. You change into whatever race you want to be. Hell, why stop there, lets do this to classes as well! I'm tired of being a Wizard, let me instantly be a Rogue!
You see where I'm trying to get? There must be limits, or the game will become boring and without purpose.
My Class is Warlord ... "Onward to victory! They cannot stand before us!"
Warlords are accomplished and competent battle leaders. Warlords stand on the front line issuing commands and bolstering their allies while leading the battle with weapon in hand. Warlords know how to rally a team to win a fight.
I could only think of people *****ing about stats, and thats understandable, they're just that paranoic.
Your vision however is the complete opposite of mine, and quite frankly, in terms of game design, it's flawed. I've seen big companies do this kind of mistake, and they all failed.
What's the point of decisions when they don't have any weight? There is none. So, if your decision doesn't matter, devs shouldn't even bother to put them in the game right. Just put a button over the character screen and *poof*. You change into whatever race you want to be. Hell, why stop there, lets do this to classes as well! I'm tired of being a Wizard, let me instantly be a Rogue!
You see where I'm trying to get? There must be limits, or the game will become boring and without purpose.
My "vision is flawed", in terms of game design? Alright. Take a look at WoW; they have Race Changes and it worked out incredibly well for them, no drawbacks or negatives really. Proof that my "vision" isn't flawed because it's opposite of yours. It works well in game design, and Blizzard is a big company that hasn't failed because of it, like you claim they do.
Decisions matter, more or less, but I don't think that you should treat an MMO like real life with hard choices in every corner. And seriously, like somene else in this thread said; you can get a sex change IRL but not in an MMO, or a race change? :P
But by your "logic" or reasoning, since decisions should have weight and consequences.... you should never be allowed to respec. Or change anything youve done?
And I see where you're trying to get, I just disagree with you and think you're taking this too seriously and making a hen out of a feather. Its just a Race Change, it won't have any effect on you whatsoever if people do this so why do you care so **** much about what others do? It's their characters, their money and time spent - not yours, and you don't have to use the feature, no one if forcing you. You claim there must be limits (clearly drawn by you) for it not to become a boring game without purpose, but realise that this stands for YOU, and YOU dont have to use the feature. Others could, and for them the game could be more fun because of it? Why are you so hellbent on limiting what others do?
Try looking at it from other perspectives, yours is not the only one that count and you can't force it upon others - race change wouldn't be forced upon you, but denying people the option on the other hand...
I don't understand why Cryptic/PWE would NOT want to take my money so I could re-roll my initial ability dice rolls... It doesn't hurt anything yet provides them with more income...
I don't understand why Cryptic/PWE would NOT want to take my money so I could re-roll my initial ability dice rolls... It doesn't hurt anything yet provides them with more income...
Should be as obvious as you just put it, but there will always be small groups of crybabies on forums that want to dictate how you play your game eventho it has no effect on them whatsoever.
As to why Cryptic hasn't added it they've said they'll "look into it", know it's something alot of people want so all we can do is hope and wait, maybe write more about it here and on twitter/FB etc.
My "vision is flawed", in terms of game design? Alright. Take a look at WoW; they have Race Changes and it worked out incredibly well for them, no drawbacks or negatives really. Proof that my "vision" isn't flawed because it's opposite of yours. It works well in game design, and Blizzard is a big company that hasn't failed because of it, like you claim they do.
Decisions matter, more or less, but I don't think that you should treat an MMO like real life with hard choices in every corner. And seriously, like somene else in this thread said; you can get a sex change IRL but not in an MMO, or a race change? :P
But by your "logic" or reasoning, since decisions should have weight and consequences.... you should never be allowed to respec. Or change anything youve done?
And I see where you're trying to get, I just disagree with you and think you're taking this too seriously and making a hen out of a feather. Its just a Race Change, it won't have any effect on you whatsoever if people do this so why do you care so **** much about what others do? It's their characters, their money and time spent - not yours, and you don't have to use the feature, no one if forcing you. You claim there must be limits (clearly drawn by you) for it not to become a boring game without purpose, but realise that this stands for YOU, and YOU dont have to use the feature. Others could, and for them the game could be more fun because of it? Why are you so hellbent on limiting what others do?
Try looking at it from other perspectives, yours is not the only one that count and you can't force it upon others - race change wouldn't be forced upon you, but denying people the option on the other hand...
Dude, you're filled with rage and failed to see my point. Also, what the **** are you talking about? You're talking like you cannot change races in this game by any means. Of course you can, just create another character for ****s sake.
It's not about what people can or cannot do, it's not about me trying to negate other people's wishes. I'm not concerned if you want to change your race, it doesn't matter to me if you 1 second is a dwarf and on the other second turns into a Elf. It's about the game as a whole, and making sure it doesn't die ('cause at the moment I'm enjoying it to the point I care about it's longevity)
You mentioned Blizzard, and yes, they have failed: look at Diablo 3. Is almost unanimous that D3 was the worse game Blizzard release in it's history. The lack of deph and over simplification obliterated it. When everyone can be everything at a click of a button, the game lacks deph, and as a consequence, slowly but steadily players tend to go away to go play something else.
It's not about me or anything saying "no, you should stick with your dwarf and *** you". It's about my personal opinion on the MEANS to do that, and how it may affect the game.
On a final note, it's devs decision. Peace.
My Class is Warlord ... "Onward to victory! They cannot stand before us!"
Warlords are accomplished and competent battle leaders. Warlords stand on the front line issuing commands and bolstering their allies while leading the battle with weapon in hand. Warlords know how to rally a team to win a fight.
Dude, you're filled with rage and failed to see my point. Also, what the **** are you talking about? You're talking like you cannot change races in this game by any means. Of course you can, just create another character for ****s sake.
It's not about what people can or cannot do, it's not about me trying to negate other people's wishes. I'm not concerned if you want to change your race, it doesn't matter to me if you 1 second is a dwarf and on the other second turns into a Elf. It's about the game as a whole, and making sure it doesn't die ('cause at the moment I'm enjoying it to the point I care about it's longevity)
You mentioned Blizzard, and yes, they have failed: look at Diablo 3. Is almost unanimous that D3 was the worse game Blizzard release in it's history. The lack of deph and over simplification obliterated it. When everyone can be everything at a click of a button, the game lacks deph, and as a consequence, slowly but steadily players tend to go away to go play something else.
It's not about me or anything saying "no, you should stick with your dwarf and *** you". It's about my personal opinion on the MEANS to do that, and how it may affect the game.
On a final note, it's devs decision. Peace.
I love how you tell me what Im feeling. :P And no, afraid I dont get enraged by things complete strangers write on forums, sorry. :P You even quoted my smiley face in the text. Obvious sign of rage issues.... You do, however, amuse me.
If you seriously compare a Race Change, wich is what this is about, to re-rolling an entire new character (without the zen/AD-bought stuff and gear and investments and collectables from your previous char as well as 60 levels) you are almost heart-achingly [insert negative comment about your intellect here]. Sorry, but really? Thats like so far from an argument it's not even funny. :P
You still have no argument, since you now admit others being able to Race Change doesnt concern you, or matter to you, but somehow this little feature would lead to the game dying....? Ehm... Come again?
I did mention Blizzard because of the fact that them using Race Change didnt make them fail. Do you dispute this? Has blizzard, as a company, tanked because they implemented Race Changes in WoW? Has WoW died without anyone noticing recently? Is Diablo 3 what this discussion is about at all, or relevant in any way? Even if you stretch it insanely far to argue the point that this was a pebble coupled with others that led to an rockslide, it still isnt an argument worth jack ****. You have NO arguments. No solid ground or foundation that you can present to support anything youve yet said. You do however contradict yourself and look like a doom crier.
Try again with real arguments.
On a final note of my own, it is the Dev's decision and hopefully their decisions draw from the opinions and suggestions and constructive criticism brought forth by their customers. War.
I love how you tell me what Im feeling. :P And no, afraid I dont get enraged by things complete strangers write on forums, sorry. :P You even quoted my smiley face in the text. Obvious sign of rage issues.... You do, however, amuse me.
If you seriously compare a Race Change, wich is what this is about, to re-rolling an entire new character (without the zen/AD-bought stuff and gear and investments and collectables from your previous char as well as 60 levels) you are almost heart-achingly [insert negative comment about your intellect here]. Sorry, but really? Thats like so far from an argument it's not even funny. :P
You still have no argument, since you now admit others being able to Race Change doesnt concern you, or matter to you, but somehow this little feature would lead to the game dying....? Ehm... Come again?
I did mention Blizzard because of the fact that them using Race Change didnt make them fail. Do you dispute this? Has blizzard, as a company, tanked because they implemented Race Changes in WoW? Has WoW died without anyone noticing recently? Is Diablo 3 what this discussion is about at all, or relevant in any way? Even if you stretch it insanely far to argue the point that this was a pebble coupled with others that led to an rockslide, it still isnt an argument worth jack ****. You have NO arguments. No solid ground or foundation that you can present to support anything youve yet said. You do however contradict yourself and look like a doom crier.
Try again with real arguments.
On a final note of my own, it is the Dev's decision and hopefully their decisions draw from the opinions and suggestions and constructive criticism brought forth by their customers. War.
Took me 14 days to get to level 60. And I'm not a hardcore gamer anymore. There were times were I stopped progressing on purpose because I was going to outlevel a skirmish or a dungeon. With less then 10000AD you can gear your fresh new 60 to breeze doing T1 epics. Re-rolling characters in this game it not the nightmare you tend to make it be. So yeah, like it or not, it's a fair, solid and undeniable point, regardless of your delusions.
For the 3rd time, the isolated fact of someone changing race doesnt concern me, what concern me is the overall health of the game. I didn't explained here because it's a complex explanation, english is not my main language which makes it even harder to write a wall of text, and I'm not in the mood to teach game design for free right now.
Wow didn't died yet because it turned into a gigant monster and those kind are slow to perish. But it's dying, I assure you.
My Class is Warlord ... "Onward to victory! They cannot stand before us!"
Warlords are accomplished and competent battle leaders. Warlords stand on the front line issuing commands and bolstering their allies while leading the battle with weapon in hand. Warlords know how to rally a team to win a fight.
Took me 14 days to get to level 60. And I'm not a hardcore gamer anymore. There were times were I stopped progressing on purpose because I was going to outlevel a skirmish or a dungeon. With less then 10000AD you can gear your fresh new 60 to breeze doing T1 epics. Re-rolling characters in this game it not the nightmare you tend to make it be. So yeah, like it or not, it's a fair, solid and undeniable point, regardless of your delusions.
For the 3rd time, the isolated fact of someone changing race doesnt concern me, what concern me is the overall health of the game. I didn't explained here because it's a complex explanation, english is not my main language which makes it even harder to write a wall of text, and I'm not in the mood to teach game design for free right now.
Wow didn't died yet because it turned into a gigant monster and those kind are slow to perish. But it's dying, I assure you.
I thought the previous post was supposed to be your final note? But fine, I'll bite and meet each of your "arguments" or "points" and counter them as previously.
* How long it takes you to level and wether or not you're a hardcore gamer is irrelevant and I don't care when you stop progressing, nor has it anything to do with this, really, besides an individual, for-the-moment take on one part of the entire process of investing into a character.
* I haven't made re-rolling characters in this game into a nightmare. When did I do such a thing? I mentioned 60 levels and AD/Zen bought things and investments and gear and collectables, as things you can have bound to a character, all in all summed up into the investment one can make in a character. Comparing using a Race Change feature to ... leveling a new character (as an example) to 60 and buying maybe mounts, upgrading, getting t1 and then t2 gear, gaining titles and achievement, skilling up professions and leveling different companions, doing what grind is relevant to you, all over again, with the same class... is not a fair, solid and undeniable point - yet you call me delusional?
*It does not matter if you repeat yourself 3 or 30 times, you still haven't presented a single solid argument as to why this feature would in any way have a negative effect on the overall health of the game, especially not compared to the possible positive ones.
*English isn't my first language either yet I don't use that as an excuse for not replying in full to you or argue the points I want to make. But feel free to hide behind it if it suits you - clearly you're proficient enough to express more than basic ideas.
*You're not "in the mood to teach game design for free right now"? How does that throne feel? Oh dear, where and when do I sign up for your workshops or advanced classes - I'd be willing to pay and you obviously are an authority on the subject; hell, you should work for Cryptic.
*No, WoW (a game I personally don't like btw) didn't die, but every game starts to die sometime - WoW is still here after 10 something years and them implementing a Race Change many years ago has had no evident negative impact on the game company's possible decline, or the game itself, nor can you prove that it has or even give examples of it.
So, was there anything else you wanted to get off your chest, or are you just a glutton for punishment and want to continue running into the same spot on the same wall, because I can do this all day to you. Feel free to try new approaches, maybe this time with real arguments besides how you feel personally but can't really explain in a coherent way packing any kind of punch.
I don't think a race change feature is necessary, only a initial scores reroll will be enough IMO.
For the ones speaking that releveling a char to 60 is fast, remember that only leveling the char is fast, not the professions. I have a GWF that I have playing from the OB start and the Leadership profession is only at lvl 17, this GWF was made focusing in STR only, with the extra Abilitie points distributed between CON and DEX, if I want to make a GWF "right" I'm goig to lose all the girnd in my profession.
I don't think a race change feature is necessary, only a initial scores reroll will be enough IMO.
For the ones speaking that releveling a char to 60 is fast, remember that only leveling the char is fast, not the professions. I have a GWF that I have playing from the OB start and the Leadership profession is only at lvl 17, this GWF was made focusing in STR only, with the extra Abilitie points distributed between CON and DEX, if I want to make a GWF "right" I'm goig to lose all the girnd in my profession.
Well, what is deemed "necessary" can really be disputed, what it boils down to is what the playerbase really enjoys, and adding diversity and options tend to further that, wich in turn adds longevity to a game, MMOs in particular.
Initial score rerolls is arguably "more important" as it can really have a big impact on how your class plays, whilst a Race Change, although not without impact, for many is more a cosmetic thing I think, or simply some races are more interesting or appealing to people than others. After all, assuming we stay in Neverwinter we're gonna be staring at our characters for quite alot of hours. So in the light of this, to me it would be very benificial to the game if added.
And agree completely on professions, the nay sayers here often resort to simply say "just re-roll, its easy", but they dont seem to think very far, like take into account the time or AD spent on crafting, as an example. Add to this maybe upgraded mounts and leveled companions (leveling several to 25-30 a second time isn't all that fun if it can be avoided) and a bunch of other things.
Rerolling a new class is of course another thing, a new experience. Having to reroll the same class and do everything the same all over again, on the other hand, is not very fun, imo.
Yiiiiikes, 2 new races announced today, which means 2-3 more races unlocked for each player in the future.... which means a lot of people will be irked if race/gender changes don't happen in the future and they have to reroll all over to have their current main as the new race.
This.
/tenchar
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jadetoraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 116Bounty Hunter
Yiiiiikes, 2 new races announced today, which means 2-3 more races unlocked for each player in the future.... which means a lot of people will be irked if race/gender changes don't happen in the future and they have to reroll all over to have their current main as the new race.
This.
/tenchar
Yeah. There needs to be a race change option, not just to change your stats but your -whole- race. If you're a Tiefling you should be able to buy something to change into a human or any other race.
Come on, Cryptic. It's not like you've never implemented this before. Champions Online itself has a full retcon token that allows you to more or less do exactly this by completely changing your Archetype which is the exact same thing, basically. So you've already got an idea how to do the UI and this probably wouldn't take much time to code, it's just an automated alteration to the db's.
There are many reasons this could (and should) be done including reasons ooc and for rp purposes and Cryptic, you already know it'll make you money. So why are you hesitating? If anything, release this with Fury of the Feywilds (or preferably before)
jadetoraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 116Bounty Hunter
edited June 2013
It's also good to reiterate that World of Warcraft already has this and has had it for quite some time. To make matters worse, they had to deal with the challenging mechanic of having the Horde AND Alliance sides to be switched by players as a result of switching race.
In Neverwinter, you don't have those issues. It's just a question of a few short alterations to the db, change to stats, etc and poof. Done. This is done easily enough in Champions Online as said before and there's no reason really why it couldn't (or shouldn't) be implemented here. It'd make Cryptic more money and make many players quite happy.
It took my 2 days to choose my race for open beta, yes 2 days. And I played since CB 2 where i just f'd around because I knew everything would be wiped. Is it too hard nowadays to use your brain? I played Everquest vanilla as a troll SK, hell levels, exp penalty and if you died, you lost a good amount of exp, possibly a few days worth. I loved it, and didn't whine or complain. I also played on Rallos Zek where it was full pvp and if you died the guy who killed you got all of your gold and he got to choose piece of gear. I loved it. Quit moaning and play. Too many games cater to 12 year olds nowadays, check Diablo 3 for a prime example.
I'm a new player and I got to around 25 only to find out my character is permanently gimped because of the Ability Score rolls at the character creation. This type of thing really turns me off from the game because I'd like to change my build/playstyle later on with the same character.
Now I'm hesitant to even make a new character knowing that I might screw something up again. Also, what about nerfs? If they nerf something that a build was created for, you just delete and spend days leveling up again?
I will not play this game if this is the case, plain and simple.
Comments
Regardless of how much I usually dislike greedy Devs/corps, paying for the feature in WoW for example never bothered me and I considered it money well spent and added longevity to the game for me.
But yes, ALOT of people want this and alot of people would pay for it, it seems, so will the real slim whiners please shut up.... :P
This is a sweet post, and one I actually appreciate personally, but I really don't see how this would really work in an MMO...
And it's not only about being "paranoic", or afraid of being bad/useless because of min-maxing stats - there are other reasons for wanting it aswell, like youre tired of being tiefling CW nr 210324334 and maybe someone wants to be a halfing, regretting their initial decision, but have bought zen companions or bankslots and earned t2 or whatever so its not "just make a new char, leveling is fast".
The real beauty of it, to me, is that everyone can be what they want to be in an MMO, even change if they get fed up with looking at themselves or just want to try something new - and race changing would further that, not hinder it. THATS cool, thats unique.
One can also add the reason that theyve delayed Drow race for quite some time now and not everyone sits on a 60 waiting to roll new chars until their favorite race come out - a race change would solve this aswell.
Not saying just you as I know many want this, but I for one don't.
To me it is like going to school and getting a degree, later deciding it was the wrong one so lets just buy a different one and not have to learn what is needed for it.
It is not like buying a car and not liking it so buy a new one.
Actually you just need a druid in town that will cast reincarnation on you and it's now lore acceptable. granted the reincarnation spell has a random chance of each race, but if you had a wizard cast wish on you then had a druid cast reincarnate something tells me you'd be able to choose your race, provided your dm was being reasonable
FR has wood elves as well, there are more than 5 different types of elves in the Fr campaign world
If you call MMO players (and people in todays world in general) self-entitlement to whine and cry until they get what they want "logic and reason" then cool beans bro! I don't play the elementary "logic" game of comparing apples and hand-grenades.
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting within the D&D world and allowing permanent race changes in the D&D world is blasphemy. Obviously the devs currently feel that way as well and hopefully won't allow it, but of course the almighty dollar will end up reigning supreme and it will be implemented eventually.
It's just nice to see at least one form of decision making still alive in MMO's these days. Once race changes are allowed the cookie-cutters take a static shape and will create another form of player alienation for those that don't conform. Not a problem for me because I don't play often outside of my social circle but once you start thinking less about just what YOU want one begins to realize there are more issues with race changes than has "already been blown to pieces by logic and reason in this thread".
Sorry, but those were some baaad analogies... so far, way, off.
Also, with your logic you should disallow respecs? Appearence changers? Only have one companion? Where does it end?
Using this is a free choice, would generate alot of money for the Devs and make alot of people happy, without having a real negative effect on the community, but even add longevity to the game.
5-day-late scold, I was about to do this, too. Not to mention, since we are talking about 4e, in the Realms "Elves" are Wood Elves...Moon Elves are "Eladrin" (Which Neverwinter Online does not have...yet?)
What I called whiners here were the small minority in this thread, the nay sayers, in no way representing "MMO Players" in general. So either you misread me or misunderstood, or youre just flailing against the air for no appearent reason, so cool beans right back at ya bro.
And regards to you comparing the logic and reason sometimes found in this 25 page thread that I mentioned to "comparing apples and hand-grenades", well.... I really don't know what to say to that. :P
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting within the D&D world and D&D allows race changes. Reincarnate, Wish spells/rituals, DM decisions.. I could go on, but if you want more reasons back pedal in this thread abit.
Whether you agree or not Neverwinter is a setting in a MMORPG game, where countless rules have been bent, broken, removed or added, but clearly this one would be pure blashpemy.... Yeah...
It's nice to see how you think a Race Change option would somehow make cookie cutters or min maxers reign supreme and alienate players that don't "conform". Way to scream "FIIIIREEE!!!" over a lit match. :P
Personally I played WoW in both casual and "hardcore" raiding guilds, where min-maxing was everything, but not even there was anyone excluded because of ingame race bonuses, not even in the nr 1 EU progression guild during it's time. But hey, what do I know - clearly the future is an open book to you, so bring out the doom sayers and dark prophets and we'll all torch burning Race Changers.
Lastly; thank you for giving me advice on how to think to aid me with realizing stuff and all that.
Guild Medieval Recruitment Topic
All I want is to be able to reset my initial character's ability dice rolls... Come on I'm even willing to PAY FOR IT!
I could only think of people *****ing about stats, and thats understandable, they're just that paranoic.
Your vision however is the complete opposite of mine, and quite frankly, in terms of game design, it's flawed. I've seen big companies do this kind of mistake, and they all failed.
What's the point of decisions when they don't have any weight? There is none. So, if your decision doesn't matter, devs shouldn't even bother to put them in the game right. Just put a button over the character screen and *poof*. You change into whatever race you want to be. Hell, why stop there, lets do this to classes as well! I'm tired of being a Wizard, let me instantly be a Rogue!
You see where I'm trying to get? There must be limits, or the game will become boring and without purpose.
My "vision is flawed", in terms of game design? Alright. Take a look at WoW; they have Race Changes and it worked out incredibly well for them, no drawbacks or negatives really. Proof that my "vision" isn't flawed because it's opposite of yours. It works well in game design, and Blizzard is a big company that hasn't failed because of it, like you claim they do.
Decisions matter, more or less, but I don't think that you should treat an MMO like real life with hard choices in every corner. And seriously, like somene else in this thread said; you can get a sex change IRL but not in an MMO, or a race change? :P
But by your "logic" or reasoning, since decisions should have weight and consequences.... you should never be allowed to respec. Or change anything youve done?
And I see where you're trying to get, I just disagree with you and think you're taking this too seriously and making a hen out of a feather. Its just a Race Change, it won't have any effect on you whatsoever if people do this so why do you care so **** much about what others do? It's their characters, their money and time spent - not yours, and you don't have to use the feature, no one if forcing you. You claim there must be limits (clearly drawn by you) for it not to become a boring game without purpose, but realise that this stands for YOU, and YOU dont have to use the feature. Others could, and for them the game could be more fun because of it? Why are you so hellbent on limiting what others do?
Try looking at it from other perspectives, yours is not the only one that count and you can't force it upon others - race change wouldn't be forced upon you, but denying people the option on the other hand...
Should be as obvious as you just put it, but there will always be small groups of crybabies on forums that want to dictate how you play your game eventho it has no effect on them whatsoever.
As to why Cryptic hasn't added it they've said they'll "look into it", know it's something alot of people want so all we can do is hope and wait, maybe write more about it here and on twitter/FB etc.
Dude, you're filled with rage and failed to see my point. Also, what the **** are you talking about? You're talking like you cannot change races in this game by any means. Of course you can, just create another character for ****s sake.
It's not about what people can or cannot do, it's not about me trying to negate other people's wishes. I'm not concerned if you want to change your race, it doesn't matter to me if you 1 second is a dwarf and on the other second turns into a Elf. It's about the game as a whole, and making sure it doesn't die ('cause at the moment I'm enjoying it to the point I care about it's longevity)
You mentioned Blizzard, and yes, they have failed: look at Diablo 3. Is almost unanimous that D3 was the worse game Blizzard release in it's history. The lack of deph and over simplification obliterated it. When everyone can be everything at a click of a button, the game lacks deph, and as a consequence, slowly but steadily players tend to go away to go play something else.
It's not about me or anything saying "no, you should stick with your dwarf and *** you". It's about my personal opinion on the MEANS to do that, and how it may affect the game.
On a final note, it's devs decision. Peace.
I love how you tell me what Im feeling. :P And no, afraid I dont get enraged by things complete strangers write on forums, sorry. :P You even quoted my smiley face in the text. Obvious sign of rage issues.... You do, however, amuse me.
If you seriously compare a Race Change, wich is what this is about, to re-rolling an entire new character (without the zen/AD-bought stuff and gear and investments and collectables from your previous char as well as 60 levels) you are almost heart-achingly [insert negative comment about your intellect here]. Sorry, but really? Thats like so far from an argument it's not even funny. :P
You still have no argument, since you now admit others being able to Race Change doesnt concern you, or matter to you, but somehow this little feature would lead to the game dying....? Ehm... Come again?
I did mention Blizzard because of the fact that them using Race Change didnt make them fail. Do you dispute this? Has blizzard, as a company, tanked because they implemented Race Changes in WoW? Has WoW died without anyone noticing recently? Is Diablo 3 what this discussion is about at all, or relevant in any way? Even if you stretch it insanely far to argue the point that this was a pebble coupled with others that led to an rockslide, it still isnt an argument worth jack ****. You have NO arguments. No solid ground or foundation that you can present to support anything youve yet said. You do however contradict yourself and look like a doom crier.
Try again with real arguments.
On a final note of my own, it is the Dev's decision and hopefully their decisions draw from the opinions and suggestions and constructive criticism brought forth by their customers. War.
Took me 14 days to get to level 60. And I'm not a hardcore gamer anymore. There were times were I stopped progressing on purpose because I was going to outlevel a skirmish or a dungeon. With less then 10000AD you can gear your fresh new 60 to breeze doing T1 epics. Re-rolling characters in this game it not the nightmare you tend to make it be. So yeah, like it or not, it's a fair, solid and undeniable point, regardless of your delusions.
For the 3rd time, the isolated fact of someone changing race doesnt concern me, what concern me is the overall health of the game. I didn't explained here because it's a complex explanation, english is not my main language which makes it even harder to write a wall of text, and I'm not in the mood to teach game design for free right now.
Wow didn't died yet because it turned into a gigant monster and those kind are slow to perish. But it's dying, I assure you.
I thought the previous post was supposed to be your final note? But fine, I'll bite and meet each of your "arguments" or "points" and counter them as previously.
* How long it takes you to level and wether or not you're a hardcore gamer is irrelevant and I don't care when you stop progressing, nor has it anything to do with this, really, besides an individual, for-the-moment take on one part of the entire process of investing into a character.
* I haven't made re-rolling characters in this game into a nightmare. When did I do such a thing? I mentioned 60 levels and AD/Zen bought things and investments and gear and collectables, as things you can have bound to a character, all in all summed up into the investment one can make in a character. Comparing using a Race Change feature to ... leveling a new character (as an example) to 60 and buying maybe mounts, upgrading, getting t1 and then t2 gear, gaining titles and achievement, skilling up professions and leveling different companions, doing what grind is relevant to you, all over again, with the same class... is not a fair, solid and undeniable point - yet you call me delusional?
*It does not matter if you repeat yourself 3 or 30 times, you still haven't presented a single solid argument as to why this feature would in any way have a negative effect on the overall health of the game, especially not compared to the possible positive ones.
*English isn't my first language either yet I don't use that as an excuse for not replying in full to you or argue the points I want to make. But feel free to hide behind it if it suits you - clearly you're proficient enough to express more than basic ideas.
*You're not "in the mood to teach game design for free right now"? How does that throne feel? Oh dear, where and when do I sign up for your workshops or advanced classes - I'd be willing to pay and you obviously are an authority on the subject; hell, you should work for Cryptic.
*No, WoW (a game I personally don't like btw) didn't die, but every game starts to die sometime - WoW is still here after 10 something years and them implementing a Race Change many years ago has had no evident negative impact on the game company's possible decline, or the game itself, nor can you prove that it has or even give examples of it.
So, was there anything else you wanted to get off your chest, or are you just a glutton for punishment and want to continue running into the same spot on the same wall, because I can do this all day to you. Feel free to try new approaches, maybe this time with real arguments besides how you feel personally but can't really explain in a coherent way packing any kind of punch.
For the ones speaking that releveling a char to 60 is fast, remember that only leveling the char is fast, not the professions. I have a GWF that I have playing from the OB start and the Leadership profession is only at lvl 17, this GWF was made focusing in STR only, with the extra Abilitie points distributed between CON and DEX, if I want to make a GWF "right" I'm goig to lose all the girnd in my profession.
Well, what is deemed "necessary" can really be disputed, what it boils down to is what the playerbase really enjoys, and adding diversity and options tend to further that, wich in turn adds longevity to a game, MMOs in particular.
Initial score rerolls is arguably "more important" as it can really have a big impact on how your class plays, whilst a Race Change, although not without impact, for many is more a cosmetic thing I think, or simply some races are more interesting or appealing to people than others. After all, assuming we stay in Neverwinter we're gonna be staring at our characters for quite alot of hours. So in the light of this, to me it would be very benificial to the game if added.
And agree completely on professions, the nay sayers here often resort to simply say "just re-roll, its easy", but they dont seem to think very far, like take into account the time or AD spent on crafting, as an example. Add to this maybe upgraded mounts and leveled companions (leveling several to 25-30 a second time isn't all that fun if it can be avoided) and a bunch of other things.
Rerolling a new class is of course another thing, a new experience. Having to reroll the same class and do everything the same all over again, on the other hand, is not very fun, imo.
This.
/tenchar
Yeah. There needs to be a race change option, not just to change your stats but your -whole- race. If you're a Tiefling you should be able to buy something to change into a human or any other race.
Come on, Cryptic. It's not like you've never implemented this before. Champions Online itself has a full retcon token that allows you to more or less do exactly this by completely changing your Archetype which is the exact same thing, basically. So you've already got an idea how to do the UI and this probably wouldn't take much time to code, it's just an automated alteration to the db's.
There are many reasons this could (and should) be done including reasons ooc and for rp purposes and Cryptic, you already know it'll make you money. So why are you hesitating? If anything, release this with Fury of the Feywilds (or preferably before)
In Neverwinter, you don't have those issues. It's just a question of a few short alterations to the db, change to stats, etc and poof. Done. This is done easily enough in Champions Online as said before and there's no reason really why it couldn't (or shouldn't) be implemented here. It'd make Cryptic more money and make many players quite happy.
I agree 100000%.
I'm a new player and I got to around 25 only to find out my character is permanently gimped because of the Ability Score rolls at the character creation. This type of thing really turns me off from the game because I'd like to change my build/playstyle later on with the same character.
Now I'm hesitant to even make a new character knowing that I might screw something up again. Also, what about nerfs? If they nerf something that a build was created for, you just delete and spend days leveling up again?
I will not play this game if this is the case, plain and simple.