I have one lore beef with the game involving races: in Forgotten Realms, they are not called wood elves; they are called moon elves. This is a small thing, I know, but a thing nonetheless. I mean, if you have the license, you might as well stick to the lore especially when it doesn't affect coding or gameplay. Simply sticking to the generic 4E lore instead of incorporating FR material is just creative laziness.
uhmm, strictly speaking the elves in this game are green elves (wood elves). Moon elves (silver) and sun elves (gold) are Eladrin in 4th ed Realms (yes, this is cannon), and that race hasn't been released yet.
I too was shocked that wisdom was a meh stat for clerics and wish I had known that it would be different here than elsewhere. I just hope that I get to reroll when I use my token...If not, I will wait to equip her items and have to delete and start over, I guess.
Same here. I chose Wisdom every single time til I hit 50 -_-
All clerics will stack their high roll in wisdom . And the rolls are NOT random . There are 12 different sets of stat rolls , you basically roll till you get the set you want . The lower your main stat the higher your total points .
What race did you pick ?
On my cleric I took the lowest possible wisdom I could at start, so no, not all clerics will stack their high roll in Wisdom, and not all clerics will point their wisdom as the level up. The meh of wisdom for clerics was pointed out in closed beta, so some chose to invest in other stats that were more useful.
I am a long term PnP player of D&D, and other games as well, and there are some very material issues with using Reincarnate, Polymorph and Wish as a functional handwave for what has been called an immersion breaking request.
This would be a very, very long post to go into it, but the gist of this is:
Reincarnate was random and it permanently reduced the Hit Dice by 1 (effectively either losing a level or permanent HP, not sure how that translates to the MMO).
Polymorph spells can be dispelled and undone.
Wish is a very dangerous spell. It does not specifically mention changing race as an option, so this falls into the 'other' category and the Wish itself has a tendency to twist to only a partial fulfillment or no fulfillment.
Miracle is the best of these, as they are requested from the gods. It doesn't have a rigid structure of effects like wish is sometimes circumscribed to.
However, if this feature is allowed, I do not see how it effects others' roleplaying as a whole. A player who knows another player changed his/her character should know that their own character may not be aware of this fact. To say that this truly impacts your immersion is metagaming. That's a big no-no for us roleplayers.
Still, I've yet to see any MMO that has implemented this kind of thing. PWI likes money and it is true that this type of change should be a bit of a cost. However, not having this and forcing players down a path where they need to create a whole new character and spend all that $$ to get to the same level as the one they don't like anymore is worth more $$ in the long run. I don't think those that have heavily invested in this game will suddenly stop playing completely because they realize they made a character error. They'll kick themselves and suffer through it and soldier on.
I do agree that being set on lore is always fun and interesting, but if they wanted to do that they should have not made it so Racials in this game give the advantages they do
Let the min/maxers have their race change as long as they don't start placing restrictions on who they raid with based on race and class choice. Sounds fair right?
4th edition imo is a result of WoTC basically giving the older edition rules away for free and while i am hoping that 5th brings the license back to its former glory I honestly believe that Castles and Crusades, Pathfinder Goodman games will be where players go to for DnD products ..
Still, I've yet to see any MMO that has implemented this kind of thing. PWI likes money and it is true that this type of change should be a bit of a cost. However, not having this and forcing players down a path where they need to create a whole new character and spend all that $$ to get to the same level as the one they don't like anymore is worth more $$ in the long run. I don't think those that have heavily invested in this game will suddenly stop playing completely because they realize they made a character error. They'll kick themselves and suffer through it and soldier on.
I'm sure you've heard of a little game called "World of Warcraft" - they implemented it long ago, you can even change factions and gender. Works flawlessly, despite racial mounts and racial quests etc.
And no RP'ers whine endlessly, no morons using D&D as a (irrelevant and invalid) excuse to want to deny other players the feature.
Because min-max has been an absurd trend in MMORPGs since forever.
It's a trend because MMO's are made in a way that rewards min-maxing so much and players, especially raiders or pvpers, tend to adapt to that way of thinking. Kind of natural. "Pros" or elitists - and simply people who want their character as strong as possible - do it and the RP'ers or some very casuals cry about it. Like they always cry about something comepletely irrelevant. Tears. In endless baby tear rivers.
However Race Change isn't only something everyone wants for "min-maxing" - take for instance the fact that Drow shouldve been released two months from open beta launch, Cryptic went back on this and now it's probably 4 months, hopefully launching in july/august with fury of the feywild.
Like they always cry about something comepletely irrelevant. Tears. In endless baby tear rivers.
Exhibit A for why this isn't needed.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
Don't feel bad OP, I made a wood elf DC. *sadface* I love the wood elf race and I love to heal. Owell. I tried to start another one, as a Human, but...yeah...not that interested in a few points really. If I win or lose based on a couple points, there's more wrong that jsut race choices.
It's a trend because MMO's are made in a way that rewards min-maxing so much and players, especially raiders or pvpers, tend to adapt to that way of thinking. Kind of natural. "Pros" or elitists - and simply people who want their character as strong as possible - do it and the RP'ers or some very casuals cry about it. Like they always cry about something comepletely irrelevant. Tears. In endless baby tear rivers.
However Race Change isn't only something everyone wants for "min-maxing" - take for instance the fact that Drow shouldve been released two months from open beta launch, Cryptic went back on this and now it's probably 4 months, hopefully launching in july/august with fury of the feywild.
This is only true in the American gaming community. As those "Korean grinders" have players that like to play together and support each other and so enjoy the game instead of thinking they (themselves, all alone) are the only ones that matter.
Such is the culture over there
P.S. There are free courses online (from Harvard even though no actual credits earned) but you can still learn a thing or two. One of them being History and Culture (which I love) from all over the world.
So... you're saying that because RPers would cry about it (for no real reason) if it got implemented (while everyone else rejoiced) Race Changes aren't needed? Maybe I'm misreading you, but your logic escapes me.
This is only true in the American gaming community. As those "Korean grinders" have players that like to play together and support each other and so enjoy the game instead of thinking they (themselves, all alone) are the only ones that matter.
Such is the culture over there
P.S. There are free courses online (from Harvard even though no actual credits earned) but you can still learn a thing or two. One of them being History and Culture (which I love) from all over the world.
While I get that one often has to generalise when talking about large groups of people... that was.. swoosh. :P I'm rarely one to by default defend Americans in gaming but the min-maxing thing is hardly exclusive to them - it's just as rampant in another somewhat significant part of the world, grouped up in the name "Europe"? :P And there are plenty asian (incl korean) min maxers or power players, especially in any game that has something competative, seen it for 15 years in gaming, over and over.
But sure, if you're talking exclusively about the "mass grinder" faction of the koreans (and yes, I've played alot of korean grindfest games, with and without korean players :P ) and cultural differences influence to an extent, but by no means a rule or something very wide, in my opinion.
But back to the original thread's point.
BUMPAGE!
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psupirateMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited June 2013
I would like to see this feature.
Incidentally, I don't understand how drastically the attributes vary in importance from traditional D&D and even from Neverwinter's own tooltips. My first rolled character was a halfling rogue with max dexterity, and it turns out that not only did I pick a very poor rogue race, I did a bad job allocating my stats too since strength is superior to dexterity. In what kind of D&D game is a half-orc a superior rogue to a halfling in almost every way? Some of the racials make too drastic a difference.
Also, I don't see how someone changing race is anymore 'immersion breaking' than someone opening a magic box and getting a flaming hell horse.
Pros:
Incredible amounts of money can be made
Everyone unhappy with their race / initial stats will be extremely happy
You don't need to level up a new character because of a mistake you made when you were a rookie
Cons:
Players who strongly care about lore / role playing would not like this.
I will PAY MONEY to have the ability to reset my initial ability score dice rolls! That should be plenty of incentive for Cryptic to give me this option!
Make the character creation/development more better/deeper... more like D&D, and like oh say some other D&D based mmo.
Put stats at whatever you want, not just a predetermined setup.
Why bother even being able to have builds when everyone is so set on min/maxing everything to death. Just shove the "best" build on all characters. It's pretty close to that anyway.
Make the character creation/development more better/deeper... more like D&D, and like oh say some other D&D based mmo.
Put stats at whatever you want, not just a predetermined setup.
Why bother even being able to have builds when everyone is so set on min/maxing everything to death. Just shove the "best" build on all characters. It's pretty close to that anyway.
"Everyone is so set on min/maxing everything to death". I disagree. And personally I don't know everyone so I wouldnt generalise like you did, but I have seen alot of people who just don't wan't a needlessly gimped character they made due to either ignorance or ****ty descriptions in-game, or simply a character with strengths/weaknesses that doesn't suit them but they rolled for because of beforementioned attribute descriptions. Quite the difference.
Also, there are other reasons for Race Changes too, that has nothing to do with min/maxing either.
I don't like how you off handedly roleplayers with this offensive quote. Allowing people to race change would ruin my immersion and most likely kill the game entirely.
Bringing up money is also confusing - I think Perfect World are more concerned with building the perfect Dungeons and Dragon MMO than their profits.
I'm not really sure how Wisdom is a Garbage stat for Clerics, it literally increases everything for them, Heal Bonus, Damage Bonus, Control Bonus, and Res Bonus.
That aside, I personally don't care which race I am. I'll play anything even if their top roll isn't spec'd out for a certain class. All that matters is looks for me. Tiefling Cleric FTW!.
I'm not too sure actually how much a couple stats are really going to do for you anyways. It's not like the stats are going up by 30% each point you stack into a certain trait.
The only race I would "maybe" see getting behind as a certain class is a melee Dwarf. And this is only due to their racial trait that they can't be knocked back, or around as much as other races, even then, I myself wouldn't choose a Dwarf anything just because of that, mainly because I'm not a Dwarven fanatic.
That aside, I'd love em to add a "Race Change" token. Maybe they'll one day throw in a Succubus race. I'd pay $50 just to change, or hell, simply even buy that race period.
This! A few extra stats in a class mean nothing if the person with the 'right' class for their 'type' knows nothing of how to use their skill. I have played enough MMOs to know that as a cleric alone you need to switch up your skills, in the skill bar or how you apply all the skills you have depending on the situation you are in. Those couple of extra points in damage, range or whatever mean nothing if you don't know how to use them!!!
There are dozens of games out there that offer race changes, D&D should NOT be one of them and hopefully the devs stick to their guns about that.
Yet you give no reasons why NOT to be one of them? Can you give a single argument against it that hasn't already been blown to pieces by logic and reason in this thread - I'd be happy to hear it. Give the countless solid reasons FOR race change something to fight against.
(Also, this is Neverwinter, cannot be framed in the name "D&D" as it's simply too far off, on so many levels in so many ways - and even IF you pull the "PnP"-card, don't, as there are several ways to change race in D&D, not that it matters since this is a MMO adaption in a Forgotten Realms setting with som D&D elements.)
Beyond the obvious "no way in hell response" from the players here for the D&D...
You also have to consider that races aren't cosmetic. As sockmunkey mentioned certain races have access to certain quests...
But the more key aspect is that different races have different abilities. Certain races are better for certain classes or for certain functions. And as the game evolves I would imagine race choices will become more (rather than less) important.
This is something which shouldn't be added to the game.
But I hate all this reset button stuff to begin with. Magic erasers are horrible and I'm an old school player who advocates for everything short of permament death.
Choices have to be meaningful. MMO's belittle every choice with magic erasers and it's really something I don't care for at all.
And you are right, you are old school. Not a bad thing and something I miss from gaming is a lot of what people speak of in forums now.. BUT games have moved on, the community needs to also or be left with our PS1s and looking back at the days we wished we could play games with our friends when they weren't sat next to us.
EDIT: wrong quote, and too tired and bored of reading this thread to find the quote I meant.
And that my friends is the /thread to the topic. Once they figure out how to implement racial changes they will, because PW is not going to turn down a money-making option anymore than Blizzard, SOE, or any of the other companies currently offering the service.
Comments
Polymorph does not affect mental stats.
Same here. I chose Wisdom every single time til I hit 50 -_-
On my cleric I took the lowest possible wisdom I could at start, so no, not all clerics will stack their high roll in Wisdom, and not all clerics will point their wisdom as the level up. The meh of wisdom for clerics was pointed out in closed beta, so some chose to invest in other stats that were more useful.
+1 to OP!
This would be a very, very long post to go into it, but the gist of this is:
Reincarnate was random and it permanently reduced the Hit Dice by 1 (effectively either losing a level or permanent HP, not sure how that translates to the MMO).
Polymorph spells can be dispelled and undone.
Wish is a very dangerous spell. It does not specifically mention changing race as an option, so this falls into the 'other' category and the Wish itself has a tendency to twist to only a partial fulfillment or no fulfillment.
Miracle is the best of these, as they are requested from the gods. It doesn't have a rigid structure of effects like wish is sometimes circumscribed to.
However, if this feature is allowed, I do not see how it effects others' roleplaying as a whole. A player who knows another player changed his/her character should know that their own character may not be aware of this fact. To say that this truly impacts your immersion is metagaming. That's a big no-no for us roleplayers.
Still, I've yet to see any MMO that has implemented this kind of thing. PWI likes money and it is true that this type of change should be a bit of a cost. However, not having this and forcing players down a path where they need to create a whole new character and spend all that $$ to get to the same level as the one they don't like anymore is worth more $$ in the long run. I don't think those that have heavily invested in this game will suddenly stop playing completely because they realize they made a character error. They'll kick themselves and suffer through it and soldier on.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review
ha..he..heehe..AHA..AHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH lol perfect world is all about profit babe, I presume you are new here.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Allow race changes.
4th edition imo is a result of WoTC basically giving the older edition rules away for free and while i am hoping that 5th brings the license back to its former glory I honestly believe that Castles and Crusades, Pathfinder Goodman games will be where players go to for DnD products ..
I'm sure you've heard of a little game called "World of Warcraft" - they implemented it long ago, you can even change factions and gender. Works flawlessly, despite racial mounts and racial quests etc.
And no RP'ers whine endlessly, no morons using D&D as a (irrelevant and invalid) excuse to want to deny other players the feature.
It's a trend because MMO's are made in a way that rewards min-maxing so much and players, especially raiders or pvpers, tend to adapt to that way of thinking. Kind of natural. "Pros" or elitists - and simply people who want their character as strong as possible - do it and the RP'ers or some very casuals cry about it. Like they always cry about something comepletely irrelevant. Tears. In endless baby tear rivers.
However Race Change isn't only something everyone wants for "min-maxing" - take for instance the fact that Drow shouldve been released two months from open beta launch, Cryptic went back on this and now it's probably 4 months, hopefully launching in july/august with fury of the feywild.
Exhibit A for why this isn't needed.
Such is the culture over there
P.S. There are free courses online (from Harvard even though no actual credits earned) but you can still learn a thing or two. One of them being History and Culture (which I love) from all over the world.
So... you're saying that because RPers would cry about it (for no real reason) if it got implemented (while everyone else rejoiced) Race Changes aren't needed? Maybe I'm misreading you, but your logic escapes me.
While I get that one often has to generalise when talking about large groups of people... that was.. swoosh. :P I'm rarely one to by default defend Americans in gaming but the min-maxing thing is hardly exclusive to them - it's just as rampant in another somewhat significant part of the world, grouped up in the name "Europe"? :P And there are plenty asian (incl korean) min maxers or power players, especially in any game that has something competative, seen it for 15 years in gaming, over and over.
But sure, if you're talking exclusively about the "mass grinder" faction of the koreans (and yes, I've played alot of korean grindfest games, with and without korean players :P ) and cultural differences influence to an extent, but by no means a rule or something very wide, in my opinion.
But back to the original thread's point.
BUMPAGE!
Incidentally, I don't understand how drastically the attributes vary in importance from traditional D&D and even from Neverwinter's own tooltips. My first rolled character was a halfling rogue with max dexterity, and it turns out that not only did I pick a very poor rogue race, I did a bad job allocating my stats too since strength is superior to dexterity. In what kind of D&D game is a half-orc a superior rogue to a halfling in almost every way? Some of the racials make too drastic a difference.
Also, I don't see how someone changing race is anymore 'immersion breaking' than someone opening a magic box and getting a flaming hell horse.
I will PAY MONEY to have the ability to reset my initial ability score dice rolls! That should be plenty of incentive for Cryptic to give me this option!
Put stats at whatever you want, not just a predetermined setup.
Why bother even being able to have builds when everyone is so set on min/maxing everything to death. Just shove the "best" build on all characters. It's pretty close to that anyway.
"Everyone is so set on min/maxing everything to death". I disagree. And personally I don't know everyone so I wouldnt generalise like you did, but I have seen alot of people who just don't wan't a needlessly gimped character they made due to either ignorance or ****ty descriptions in-game, or simply a character with strengths/weaknesses that doesn't suit them but they rolled for because of beforementioned attribute descriptions. Quite the difference.
Also, there are other reasons for Race Changes too, that has nothing to do with min/maxing either.
bahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
This! A few extra stats in a class mean nothing if the person with the 'right' class for their 'type' knows nothing of how to use their skill. I have played enough MMOs to know that as a cleric alone you need to switch up your skills, in the skill bar or how you apply all the skills you have depending on the situation you are in. Those couple of extra points in damage, range or whatever mean nothing if you don't know how to use them!!!
+ over 9000 and QFT
Yet you give no reasons why NOT to be one of them? Can you give a single argument against it that hasn't already been blown to pieces by logic and reason in this thread - I'd be happy to hear it. Give the countless solid reasons FOR race change something to fight against.
(Also, this is Neverwinter, cannot be framed in the name "D&D" as it's simply too far off, on so many levels in so many ways - and even IF you pull the "PnP"-card, don't, as there are several ways to change race in D&D, not that it matters since this is a MMO adaption in a Forgotten Realms setting with som D&D elements.)
And you are right, you are old school. Not a bad thing and something I miss from gaming is a lot of what people speak of in forums now.. BUT games have moved on, the community needs to also or be left with our PS1s and looking back at the days we wished we could play games with our friends when they weren't sat next to us.
EDIT: wrong quote, and too tired and bored of reading this thread to find the quote I meant.
And that my friends is the /thread to the topic. Once they figure out how to implement racial changes they will, because PW is not going to turn down a money-making option anymore than Blizzard, SOE, or any of the other companies currently offering the service.
(I'd pay too)