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AC mechanics rendering melee units useless
bracer2
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 566 Bounty Hunter
AC IS hit or miss. Its in every D&D rulebook. That combined with the necessary AoOs (attacks of opportunity) is what gives warriors power and establishes proper aggro. When wearing FP and a Shield warrior classes are very difficult to hit. So they must be mobbed to be killed. When enemies run from said tank, say, to attack a caster in the group such as the very important cleric a AoO is granted (all enemies within 5 ft. that take any movement) and the enemy will obviously be killed much faster. So enemies MUST remain of the fighter creating the all important aggro. These are essential rules, without them we have all seen the results as melee units are ineffective to the tenth degree. This has to be addressed ASAP.
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On topic: You can't try to apply turn-based mechanics to a real-time game.
Exactly that.. Rogues should do situational dmg and not act like frontline bruisers like they do in NW
Ok, so how do we accomplish the need for melee units in a game that's not turn based? Whats are some constructive ideas that would once again make melee units needed without using the basic turn based model that has always made fighters essential?
I completely agree. For the better part of four decades rouges in D&D have had the primary goal of bringing a bit of color and warmth to the otherwise pale faces of courtesans and northern bards. The fact that we can no longer fill this vital role is a shame and detracts from the fun of playing the class. I mean heck, the only race who can even roll a rouge with a proper skin-color is a tiefling.
Fact2. Turn based model for the most part made melee units essential to groups.
Dilemma. What can be done about it? how is this fixed?. Is it easy as buffing a tanks threat and aggro? If so i cant imagine why it hasn't been done already. Which leads me to believe either its not an easy fix or it simply wont be fixed. So were do warrior class players go from here?
What the OP said about the GF and how AoO's work with marking targets, as well as fighters being able to stop the movement of enemies hit by their AoO's is correct. Marking is altogether more effective of a punishment and deterrent to a fighter's enemies in tabletop 4E D&D, than it has been translated into Neverwinter. Fighters in 4E apply/refresh their marks with all their attacks, and while a mark doesn't mind control monsters like a WoW taunt, it does provide harsh disincentives for enemies trying to move past or ignore a fighter, stalling their movement and giving the fighter extra attacks. Since fighters in D&D hit hard (not striker hard, but in some builds close, such as GWF) that AoO could kill or seriously injure a monster, add to it that it ends the targets movement, and any monster other than a solo, elite, or boss moving past a fighter is either not going to make it, or going to arrive with no actions left to attack the softer cleric, wizard, etc in the party, and half dead. So yes, something needs to be done to make the fighters and their marks more impressive in Neverwinter without a doubt, but the solution isn't to bust other classes.
Also in tabletop the only difference between a Guardian Fighter and a Great Weapon fighter is some build recommendations on powers and feats (all still from the same pool though) and that one uses a shield and one-handed weapon, the other a big 2-handed weapon. Their role (defender) and mechanics are identical, one just went all out on defense with a shield (adding up to 4 more AC right out the gate) and the other a more damaging weapon, allowing for near striker levels of damage occasionally, but with no committed striker mechanics. (such as a rogues sneak attack, warlock's curse, or ranger's hunter's quarry.)
I point this out, because inevitably someone states the stupidly obvious truth that an MMO won't be just like the tabletop, which I think everyone gets. However, Neverwinter is built using 4E D&D as the reference and many people approach it clearly showing their expectations come from WoW or previous editions of D&D, and that is part of the problem. 4E D&D isn't WoW, and it really isn't 2nd AD&D or 3.X D&D. 4E fighters rogues and wizards are likewise not like those in WoW or previous editions.
AC=miss chance can be implemented without problem in a real time game... we alredy have "miss" in this game.. it is deflect... it does not cause the hit to totally miss but the mechanics is the same... just move the chance to miss from deflect to AC and u wil achive an AC system that is much closer to that of D&D... (also the fact that we have a deflection severity stat but no way to increase that stat is a bit silly...
for the AoO... is the same... it can be achivied even in real time combat... In D&D 4th edition an AoO is triggered whenevere a marked target within melee range attack something other thatn the one that have marked him... just make mark so that it proc a DMG whenever a marked target attacks something that is not the marking warrior...
here u go... and easy way to translate the AC and AoO mechanics... this also give adidditional tool to fighter class to hold aggro... (u lose aggro from the mob that try to hit your cleric... auto attack on him.... that HELP u regain the aggro... u will obviously need to do something on your own but that will HELP u generate additional aggro when things don't go as expected...)
Thing is, in an MMO? Most of those things aren't "useful" enough to base a class around. If the rogue didn't bring meaningful abilities (DPS, control) to a party, they wouldn't be needed/wanted/used in dungeons. You can already see that most people just avoid traps in dungeons, so rogue disarm isn't particularly needed. Pickpocket? Eh, nothing there that a party would want. Sneak attacks - well, that's what they are doing - fighting from behind for combat advantage.
Lets be clear i am not for busting up any other classes, however, if a certain class whatever it is, is making another class obsolete. then that's clearly a big issue. Im for anything that makes melee classes an integral part of the game. How is this accomplished? Rouges being tanks just doesn't add up sir. So what can be done. My GF is solid and often times does comparable dmg to a rouge and has excellent survivability. These things are not enough, or clearly melee units would be more of a group asset. The only possible thing i can think of is to bring back the rules that made melee essential to begin with. Turn based. I just don't know of any other way to fix that. Do you? Do the devs, Does anyone?
it SHOULD be this way... but unfortunately most TR doesn't fight the enemy from behind while he is taking on the GF... they simply tank the boss them self using stealth and other abilities to get CA for them self while fighting the boss one on one... ^^'
while I agrre that the sneaking, pick poket and co is actually more of a cosmetic thing than a usuefull thing in today standard MMO (in the past pickpoketing was an element that was all but cosmetic when your legendary weapon could disappear from your backpack at any moment ^^' ) the actual problem is that TR as they stand can actually FACE TANK the boss based on their avoidance and hit him hard without any need for distraction from other player... If u take a look at most T2 or CN video u will se that the TR just simply take care of the boss by himself while the whole party take care of the adds...
in neverwinter the TR is actually both the tank and dps... while the GF is actually a really subpar tank... or an AoE dps... where AoE dmg is often not needere since u can't beat the AoE dps of a cliff :P
I do use mark, and when a group of enemies just ignores said ability and runs away to kill the cleric my attack speed is not increased in any way, Which is the only thing that would account for AoO. So this "mark" simply put doesn't work. I wish it did though. That would mean melee units can access game content through T2 groups.
It was absolutely done in NWN2. A real time game with D&D rules mechanics. My rouge on an online server used to pick pocket drow all the time. And AC was hit or miss, rolls were constantly being made while the game moved along in real time.
This poster gets it, kudos man/mam.
Yes, although the genre is the same, but real time is real time, you don't have to pause the game to get AoOs. In fact, it works equally well in DDO. Yes, different rule set, but the same rule. There is also the fact that one could play NWN or NWN 2 online, with no pause function, and still get AoOs when they were appropriate. So yes, you can most certainly get them to work in real time, it's been being done for a decade.
That said, I have built "tank built" rogues in all of the CRPGs to date, that I've played based on D&D. The AC mechanic is your friend, when it's implemented properly. I didn't roll TR here because I thought it would be the FoM. I rolled a TR because I play rogue/rogue type classes everywhere. This is an aspect where, if 4e is being followed well(I have no idea if it is or not)D&D went backwards 20 years. Rogues had evasion as a secondary AC, they also had tumble, to prevent AoOs when moving to flank opponents. So if this is 4e as intended, I can see why there's a split in the D&D community about it.
NWN2 was not a real-time game. Neither was NWN1, Icewind Dale, or Baldur's Gate, or Dragon Age: Origins for that matter. It was a hybrid system. You still took turns, but some of them happened simultaneously.
Just for the sake of argument. Im referring to the online real time NWN2 variety. It could not be paused (except by DM) and thousands of turn based rolls were happening in real time sir. There was no "hold" for turn. You see what in saying? How is this not real time? Its an online multiplayer game ...
Regardless, that is not the point of this post. The point is to figure out how to make melee units an integral part of THIS game like they were with correct AC and AoO rules.
Im with you and agree. Here is the thing though. Rouges in this game are replacing other classes. That doesn't even make sense. The GWF for example should be doing the most melee dmg by far imho. Its Wulfgar.... Look at that sword.. Thats a D12+5 right there, with 6 attacks a turn..plus STR bonus, 2 handed style..(i know old D&D reference, not literally applicable) If the rouge in NW is doing this kind of dmg, by my thinking a GWF should be doing almost twice that consistently over time. I don't think rouges should be nerfed at all. But if there replacing entire classes then something has to be done.
From what I understand, that's not how D&D 4th works. The Rogue is a Striker (dedicated damage dealer, generally single target), while the Fighter (even the Great Weapon Fighter) is a Defender-type. See here for more detail.
You allow the fighters the attack of opportunity in the form of a seriously HAMSTER combat advantage bonus. Not something trivial(the current one is...ok for dps purposes, but nothing for a tanking purpose), rather, a crippling, blood from the eyeballs, helmet crushing rear positional.
Something along the lines of making Anvil of Doom do quadruple damage when combat advantage AND mark is present, in the form of feat points spent deeply into the pure tanking line. Allow mobs an AI that makes them think "try not to take 35k hits". Halve or quarter the bonus in PvP areas just to respect balance.
Will it happen...doubt it. But this basic train of thought would accurately simulate an attack of opportunity that opponents worth fighting would want to avoid taking.
Thats as good as anything ive heard for the last week on the real GF issue. (this shield thing. . is nothing of consequence)I hope it happens in some form or fashion. Its in poor taste to remove the classic and integral fighters of D&D from gameplay.
Attacks of Opportunity are a relative newcomer in D&D, BTW; it was around for decades without them.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Just to jump in here, but as an old-school D&D player and former DM: there was NO rogue class in D&D in the 1970's or 1980's or even the early 90's. The class was called Thief and the sub-class was called Assassin.
Just wanted to clear that up.
If only stealth didn't last a base of 5 seconds.
A change like that would make rogues less desirable than GWFs