quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
For a given X%, X% damage reduction to all hits is better than X% to-hit chance, even if the expected damage over time is the same. This is because it's easier to heal small amounts of spread out damage, than big spikes of damage.
Perhaps GFs should have greater damage mitigation, but turning their damage reduction into a miss chance would not help them.
But their most powerful mitigation is their active blocking, which isn't a part of D&D.
Rouges should be rouges not tanks. They do dmg in more accordance with which a GWF should be doing dmg. Rouges historically hide, sneak, pick pockets, and get in sneak attacks when they can. The rouges in this game are assuming the roles of the GWF, and GFs. This is not good for the game clearly and is also contradictory to what a rouge has represented for the last 40 years in D&D gaming.
Ok, so how do we accomplish the need for melee units in a game that's not turn based? Whats are some constructive ideas that would once again make melee units needed without using the basic turn based model that has always made fighters essential?
The idea of AoO is to make the melee defenders "sticky". Preventing or punishing mobs that try to go past them to get to the rest of the party.
How about a base mechanic of marking is not just to reduce damage resistance, but also speed whilst within weapon's reach of the character. (GWFs by 50%, GFs by 75% perhaps?)
Characters can't physically block mobs effectively, but this mechanic would give a bit of the same feel by slowing them severely. Probably best not to work on bosses, but this would help the cleric with adds on her as she runs them through the Fighter's zone of threat.
Guardians could perhaps slot a passive that reduces speed even further, and/or deals damage and/or threat whilst within that radius.
Perhaps GWFs might get a passive that inflicts damage whenever a mob deals damage to another party member whilst within weapon's reach. - That might be more of an encounter or daily power however, and is similar to some of the guardian and GWF feats.
The issue with translating actual Attacks of Opportunity into an action MMO is that it might be hard to differentiate whether a mob left the character's threatened area because it moved, or because the character did.
So be it. If you can't hide you can't deal full dps. A common assassin mechanic. + you can dodge if your stealth is on cd.
Peace.
Alright, let's roll with this logic.
Invite a rogue to your group. Now, be aware he can only dps for 4-5 seconds. After that, he will go dodge into a corner and stay there for 10 seconds. Then he will come back and dps for 4-5 seconds, before dodging back into the corner.
This is an amazing class change idea!
It sure beats out something like increasing encounter ability cooldowns, or slowing the rate of Action point gains.
Just to jump in here, but as an old-school D&D player and former DM: there was NO rogue class in D&D in the 1970's or 1980's or even the early 90's. The class was called Thief and the sub-class was called Assassin.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Agreed, no question. Just using "rouge" because its a current term that's been consolidated down. I preferred the thief title or when halfling was a class. Was kool. Given your experience and background at the table, what would you implement for GFs and GWFs to be able to consistently participate and be an asset in T2 groups?
Agreed, no question. Just using "rouge" because its a current term that's been consolidated down. I preferred the thief title or when halfling was a class. Was kool. Given your experience and background at the table, what would you implement for GFs and GWFs to be able to consistently participate and be an asset in T2 groups?
I cannot comment on that yet. I only started playing this game last weekend. My character is currently only level 22 (GF). I do enjoy tanking for my groups, and I already experience challenges in holding threat, but I will not pretend to understand the issues at play at 60 in tiered content. In fact, I had to google "Neverwinter T2 groups" before posting this reply, to even know -- for sure -- what T2 meant.
And yes, halfling was a class. In fact, in the very first booklets, it wasn't halfling, it was "hobbit." But enough of my nerdosity. Carry on. I'll post back at a later time on topic when I'm able to better contribute.
The idea of AoO is to make the melee defenders "sticky". Preventing or punishing mobs that try to go past them to get to the rest of the party.
How about a base mechanic of marking is not just to reduce damage resistance, but also speed whilst within weapon's reach of the character. (GWFs by 50%, GFs by 75% perhaps?)
Characters can't physically block mobs effectively, but this mechanic would give a bit of the same feel by slowing them severely. Probably best not to work on bosses, but this would help the cleric with adds on her as she runs them through the Fighter's zone of threat.
Guardians could perhaps slot a passive that reduces speed even further, and/or deals damage and/or threat whilst within that radius.
Perhaps GWFs might get a passive that inflicts damage whenever a mob deals damage to another party member whilst within weapon's reach. - That might be more of an encounter or daily power however, and is similar to some of the guardian and GWF feats.
The issue with translating actual Attacks of Opportunity into an action MMO is that it might be hard to differentiate whether a mob left the character's threatened area because it moved, or because the character did.
Good stuff, that seems viable and mmo capable to me. Dont know that it makes melee units essential party but a change like that would certainly make them more desirable and i think would allow melee classes to play EGC.
I cannot comment on that yet. I only started playing this game last weekend. My character is currently only level 22 (GF). I do enjoy tanking for my groups, and I already experience challenges in holding threat, but I will not pretend to understand the issues at play at 60 in tiered content. In fact, I had to google "Neverwinter T2 groups" before posting this reply, to even know -- for sure -- what T2 meant.
And yes, halfling was a class. In fact, in the very first booklets, it wasn't halfling, it was "hobbit." But enough of my nerdosity. Carry on. I'll post back at a later time on topic when I'm able to better contribute.
Sweet, GFs are sooo much fun through lvls. At this time they cant gain high lvl group access though, mainly due to aggroo/AoO issues. Enjoy your progression.
Fighters have never been essential in DnD (pen and paper) beyond the lower levels where caster spell selection (variety and quantity) has traditionally been most limited.
The attack of opportunity mechanic had limited (or no) impact on this aspect of gameplay unless the individual attempting to move away from the melee combatant was particularly dense (as would be perfectly appropriate for many low intelligence monsters and the like).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Fighters have never been essential in DnD (pen and paper) beyond the lower levels where caster spell selection (variety and quantity) has traditionally been most limited.
The attack of opportunity mechanic had limited (or no) impact on this aspect of gameplay unless the individual attempting to move away from the melee combatant was particularly dense (as would be perfectly appropriate for many low intelligence monsters and the like).
Until 4E finally got D&D right, of course. Neverwinter should strive to make its Fighters as awesome as 4E's. But not necessarily by using PnP mechanics.
Also, mobs not triggering OAs mean they are doing their job. The threat they carry is the point of them.
Fighters have never been essential in DnD (pen and paper) beyond the lower levels where caster spell selection (variety and quantity) has traditionally been most limited.
The attack of opportunity mechanic had limited (or no) impact on this aspect of gameplay unless the individual attempting to move away from the melee combatant was particularly dense (as would be perfectly appropriate for many low intelligence monsters and the like).
No classes are essential in tabletop... you could have any group you want. A good DM will challenge said group while knowing there capabilities. But the group has to function regardless of makeup, even if its very limited function. The AC hit or miss, and AoOs create the traditional tank. doesn't get hit. And keeps aggro all the while doing solid above average damage. Thats a group melee asset. That doesn't exist in this current game.
Until 4E finally got D&D right, of course. Neverwinter should strive to make its Fighters as awesome as 4E's. But not necessarily by using PnP mechanics.
Also, mobs not triggering OAs mean they are doing their job. The threat they carry is the point of them.
I don't feel that 4E handled this, "right," but I really don't want to turn this into a classic edition wars, "debate."
No classes are essential in tabletop... you could have any group you want. A good DM will challenge said group while knowing there capabilities. But the group has to function regardless of makeup, even if its very limited function. The AC hit or miss, and AoOs create the traditional tank. doesn't get hit. And keeps aggro all the while doing solid above average damage. Thats a group melee asset. That doesn't exist in this current game.
The attack of opportunity mechanic had virtually no impact on anything even remotely resembling, "aggro." There was nothing inherent to AoO that prevented an opponent from moving out of melee range of a fighter. If the fighter, "doesn't get hit," then remaining in melee range with him, taking multiple hits in return for failed attempts to strike the fighter rather than just one (maybe) from moving away in no way encouraged remaining in melee with the fighter rather than going after a less hard target.
An opponent's options would be:
a) Remain in melee with a foe that you can't hurt, taking hits round after round until you die.
or
b) Move away from that foe possibly taking one hit (and move onto a foe that you can hurt, and whose defeat may make the fighter easier to take down).
Again, staying in melee with a fighter means taking more damage than moving away from him. Where is the aggro in that ?
The AoO mechanic did not establish aggro, it merely gave the fighter a bit of extra damage output (sometimes) when a foe with an intelligence score above that of an animal disengaged from him in order to fight more effectively.
Comments
Perhaps GFs should have greater damage mitigation, but turning their damage reduction into a miss chance would not help them.
But their most powerful mitigation is their active blocking, which isn't a part of D&D.
Thibbledorf, Bruenor, Ivan, Belwar Dissengulp, Rikus..... you dont want a world without tanks ...
do you?
I think you mean rogue, rouge is a color.
How about a base mechanic of marking is not just to reduce damage resistance, but also speed whilst within weapon's reach of the character. (GWFs by 50%, GFs by 75% perhaps?)
Characters can't physically block mobs effectively, but this mechanic would give a bit of the same feel by slowing them severely. Probably best not to work on bosses, but this would help the cleric with adds on her as she runs them through the Fighter's zone of threat.
Guardians could perhaps slot a passive that reduces speed even further, and/or deals damage and/or threat whilst within that radius.
Perhaps GWFs might get a passive that inflicts damage whenever a mob deals damage to another party member whilst within weapon's reach. - That might be more of an encounter or daily power however, and is similar to some of the guardian and GWF feats.
The issue with translating actual Attacks of Opportunity into an action MMO is that it might be hard to differentiate whether a mob left the character's threatened area because it moved, or because the character did.
Alright, let's roll with this logic.
Invite a rogue to your group. Now, be aware he can only dps for 4-5 seconds. After that, he will go dodge into a corner and stay there for 10 seconds. Then he will come back and dps for 4-5 seconds, before dodging back into the corner.
This is an amazing class change idea!
It sure beats out something like increasing encounter ability cooldowns, or slowing the rate of Action point gains.
Agreed, no question. Just using "rouge" because its a current term that's been consolidated down. I preferred the thief title or when halfling was a class. Was kool. Given your experience and background at the table, what would you implement for GFs and GWFs to be able to consistently participate and be an asset in T2 groups?
I cannot comment on that yet. I only started playing this game last weekend. My character is currently only level 22 (GF). I do enjoy tanking for my groups, and I already experience challenges in holding threat, but I will not pretend to understand the issues at play at 60 in tiered content. In fact, I had to google "Neverwinter T2 groups" before posting this reply, to even know -- for sure -- what T2 meant.
And yes, halfling was a class. In fact, in the very first booklets, it wasn't halfling, it was "hobbit." But enough of my nerdosity. Carry on. I'll post back at a later time on topic when I'm able to better contribute.
Good stuff, that seems viable and mmo capable to me. Dont know that it makes melee units essential party but a change like that would certainly make them more desirable and i think would allow melee classes to play EGC.
Sweet, GFs are sooo much fun through lvls. At this time they cant gain high lvl group access though, mainly due to aggroo/AoO issues. Enjoy your progression.
The attack of opportunity mechanic had limited (or no) impact on this aspect of gameplay unless the individual attempting to move away from the melee combatant was particularly dense (as would be perfectly appropriate for many low intelligence monsters and the like).
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Until 4E finally got D&D right, of course. Neverwinter should strive to make its Fighters as awesome as 4E's. But not necessarily by using PnP mechanics.
Also, mobs not triggering OAs mean they are doing their job. The threat they carry is the point of them.
No classes are essential in tabletop... you could have any group you want. A good DM will challenge said group while knowing there capabilities. But the group has to function regardless of makeup, even if its very limited function. The AC hit or miss, and AoOs create the traditional tank. doesn't get hit. And keeps aggro all the while doing solid above average damage. Thats a group melee asset. That doesn't exist in this current game.
I don't feel that 4E handled this, "right," but I really don't want to turn this into a classic edition wars, "debate."
The attack of opportunity mechanic had virtually no impact on anything even remotely resembling, "aggro." There was nothing inherent to AoO that prevented an opponent from moving out of melee range of a fighter. If the fighter, "doesn't get hit," then remaining in melee range with him, taking multiple hits in return for failed attempts to strike the fighter rather than just one (maybe) from moving away in no way encouraged remaining in melee with the fighter rather than going after a less hard target.
An opponent's options would be:
a) Remain in melee with a foe that you can't hurt, taking hits round after round until you die.
or
b) Move away from that foe possibly taking one hit (and move onto a foe that you can hurt, and whose defeat may make the fighter easier to take down).
Again, staying in melee with a fighter means taking more damage than moving away from him. Where is the aggro in that ?
The AoO mechanic did not establish aggro, it merely gave the fighter a bit of extra damage output (sometimes) when a foe with an intelligence score above that of an animal disengaged from him in order to fight more effectively.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.