Official Feedback Thread: Oathbound Paladin Changes (Sea of Moving Ice)

asterdahl · October 2016

Greetings adventurers, as I promised in the patch notes thread I'm here to discuss the upcoming changes to the Oathbound Paladin and open up an official discussion thread for those changes! Apologies for the delay on getting this thread up and running.

Although it's unlikely any major changes will occur with the upcoming adjustments for the launch of Sea of Moving Ice, we would like to continue to adjust powers as necessary in the near future and already have plans for some powers. Please use this thread for providing feedback and bug reports on issues you may have encountered with the changes.

We look forward to seeing you all tackle the Jarl and receiving your value feedback! If you're giving feedback or bug reports, we'd like for you to follow some formatting outlined below, to ensure that we can note and address these issues quickly.

Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use CYAN. If you are replying to another user's post, or just engaging in general discussion, please do not color your posts, general discussion is welcome and we will read all of it, regardless of color! You can use BBCode to color your text:

<font color=cyan>This text will display in cyan.</font>
<font color=red>This text will display in red.</font>

Examples:
Bug: Circle of Power's paragon path buffs are not applying to my allies!

Feedback: It's really hard to use Absolution on myself when I'm in a party.

Thank you for taking the time to check out the preview build, and thank you for taking the time to hop on the forums and give us your feedback.

asterdahl · October 2016

In this post I am including excerpts from the patch notes for each power, and below the excerpt I will talk a little about the changes.

terramak said:

Binding Oath
Binding Oath now has the following effect: For 5 seconds, nearby enemies are forced to attack you and you gain 100% of your Maximum Hit Points as a Shield. When this effect expires or the shield is depleted foes in a 30' area take 100% of the damage that was taken by the shield and you take 50% of that damage. Additional ranks increase the duration of the shield by 1 second.
Binding Oath previously had the following effect: Nearby targets are forced to attack you for 2 seconds. During this time you absorb all damage dealt to you. When this effect expires you takes 50% of that damage and deal 20% of it to all foes in a 30' area. (The damage dealt to each target cannot exceed your Maximum Hit Points. Players affected by this power deal 75% less damage to all targets except for you. Additional ranks increased the duration of the effect by 2 seconds.
Binding Oath did now properly taunts, as indicated.
The effect of decreasing damage dealt against the Paladin who uses Binding Oath in PvP did not work as indicated. This effect was removed.

Changes to Binding Oath were the major driving force behind these updates. As I've discussed elsewhere, we'd like to move away from powers that grant outright invulnerability. The primary reason we want to avoid invulnerability is that it allows us to create more compelling content. For instance: mechanics like Drufi's Call of Winter, which must be avoided by hiding behind permafrost. We knew when we built that mechanic that Divine Protector and Binding Oath could be used in order to trivialize the mechanic and at the time discussed making changes to invulnerability powers.

However, as we did not have the time to make other improvements to compensate, we decided to continue as-is. Although we could have made certain Call of Winter killed everyone who failed the mechanic by making it fire continuously or pierce invulnerability, we'd like to avoid adding additional confusing inconsistencies to the way powers work.

When we knew we wanted to change Binding Oath we went back to the drawing board on the power and looked at the intent when it was built, how it's used currently, and how it feels to use. We decided that although the "last stand" feeling that Binding Oath has—the ability to survive far more than your health in damage, if only for a short time—is compelling in principal, on an ability with such a short cooldown it simply does not work.

As the power was originally built, it was meant to be a risk vs. reward proposition, however, it quickly became so powerful due to a number of factors that very rarely was it a risk to use the power. If you died at the end of Binding Oath, it was because you took a huge amount of damage during its duration that would have killed you even had you been healed. There was no risk or downside to using the power.

We experimented with a number of changes to Binding Oath, some of which did actually maintain more of the original feel but with the risk actually present. In the end, you want to push your encounter powers as often as they are up, or in a fight with a predictable high damage enemy ability, at least every time that ability comes around. Fights in Neverwinter can be fast paced and hectic, with lots of damage coming all at once. Any implementation that made Binding Oath risky to use made the power feel too unpredictable, it just didn't have a place on the encounter bar for a tank in difficult content, which is where you'd want that sort of ability most.

The update we arrived at was one where Binding Oath is no longer a risky ability to use. We decided instead, that we'd also make large improvements to Absolution, making Absolution the new powerful survivability cooldown in the place of Binding Oath for boss fights like Storvald where large on demand increases to effective hit points are important, with Binding Oath remaining a strong contender for survivability and damage. With the idea that in some cases, you may want to stack both.

Lastly, before I move on, I want to address one more reason we wanted to move away from invulnerability for Binding Oath. There had previously been a nerf that made it much more difficult to roll Binding Oath continually, however, that possibility continued to exist, if you could squeeze out just a bit more recovery, or if your procs allowed it. We wanted to remove the goal post of becoming continuously invulnerable. We want Paladin and Guardian Fighter to both be equally strong tanks that feel different, and we know we're not exactly where we want to be yet, but continuous invulnerability is not how we want Paladins to differentiate themselves.

terramak said:

Absolution
Absolution now grants the target 20% of their maximum hit points as a shield, up from a smaller value based on the Paladin's wepaon damage. Additional ranks now grant 10% more of the target's maximum hit points as a shield, up to a maximum of a 50% shield. The Oath of Protection bonus for this power has been adjusted to provide a 50% increase to damage resistance for the duration of the shield. Previously the bonus increased the size of the shield by a small amount.

As I mentioned above, we made large improvements to Absolution with the idea that it would become a strong option when effective hit points were most important. With the most recent adjustments we made to Duumvirate in Svardborg to make it as dangerous as we originally intended, we put Absolution through its paces in our internal playtests and our Paladin was happy with the changes.

The increase to the shield is huge for both Devotion and Protection Paladins and I'd like to urge everyone to try it out. We've already received some feedback that it's hard in a group setting to not mistakenly cast it on an ally when attempting to cast it on oneself. Keep in mind that if you're aiming at an enemy, Absolution will be cast on yourself. With that in mind, we'd like you all to give it a try and continue providing feedback.

There have been suggestions about having the shield apply to both the ally and the caster. While it's technically possible, Absolution is now a very strong shield. If we made that change, we'd have to reduce the shield to compensate. However, we might consider changing this power significantly for Protection Paladins to the point where it cannot be cast on allies, if there's enough feedback that it's too difficult to cast on oneself.

terramak said:

Vow of Enmity
Vow of Enmity is now a toggle power with a 10 second cooldown. Pressing Vow of Enmity after a vow has been chosen will remove the vow and trigger the cooldown. Only one target may be affected by your Vow of Enmity at a time. Previously Vow of Enmity could only be recast if the target was killed or after 60 seconds.

Vow of Enmity is a power with an interesting concept that ended up being too weak and finicky to justify using in most cases. Speaking of difficulty with targeting, if you vowed the wrong target you could be out of luck for a very long time.

With the change to a toggle, we're giving more freedom to Paladins if they vow the wrong target. That being said, we've received some feedback internally during playtesting as well as since the changes have gone out, and we'd like to make further adjustments to Vow of Enmity in the not too distant future. At present, we're considering changes that would make this power a short duration effect and a short cooldown that deals damage to the target when cast.

It will ship as a toggle in Sea of Moving Ice, but we'd like to make those changes at some point.

asterdahl · October 2016

terramak said:

Circle of Power
The effect of circle of power now lasts 10 seconds, down from 20. The cooldown of circle of power has been reduced to 28 seconds, down from 60. In accordance with this adjustment, additional ranks of this power now grant 2 additional seconds to the effect per rank, down from 4. The additional effects gained by Circle of Power when the Paladin has Oath of Devotion or Oath of Protection (30% more outgoing healing and 25% damage resistance, respectively) are now also granted to allies standing within the Circle of Power. This effect does not stack with multiple Circles of Power.

Circle of Power is another ability that was interesting in concept but was too cumbersome to use. Locking oneself to a position for 20 seconds and having a 60 second cooldown was over the top. In addition, it was exceptionally strange that an ability that put a large indicator like that on the ground only affected the Paladin who cast it.

With that in mind, we made the change to allow Circle of Power to be recast more quickly with a shorter duration, making it easier to get use out of. In addition, we increased the paladin's utility by allowing the paragon path effects on the circle to apply to party members. We did consider allowing the base damage increase to apply to party members, but as we believe there are currently a large number of damage buffing abilities at play in Neverwinter, we'd like to avoid continuing to add more. That being said, we are aware protection paladins are at a disadvantage compared to guardian fighters right now in terms of the damage they bring to a group, and we'd like to continue examining this. The coinciding changes to commander's strike this update should help to level the playing field a bit.

Note: We are aware of reports that the buff is not applying to the paladin's allies. We're currently investigating the issue and believe the patch notes may have gone to preview before the actual changes to the buff. I apologize for the inconvenience and confusion this may have caused.

terramak said:

Divine Protector
Divine protector now redirects 60% of damage taken by nearby allies, down from 100%. The damage reduction effect on the Paladin has been increased to 60%, up from 50%.

It was not that long ago that Divine Protector had some adjustments made to it. However, both the development team and the community were not happy with where the power was left after those changes. It became difficult to use due to the dramatic decrease in resistance it provided to the paladin, in addition, the invulnerability it provided to party members allowed a number of mechanics to be trivialized.

With the upcoming changes, Paladins will be getting more survivability out of the power, but allies will no longer have 100% of their damage taken redirected. Divine Protector will certainly help allies survive stray damage or a few small mistakes, but a completely lethal mechanic will still be lethal or at least very dangerous. In addition, if a handful of allies eat an AoE, it is not necessarily instant death for the Paladin with these changes.

As comparisons to Knight's Valor often come up, I'd like to speak briefly about it. For one, obviously Divine Protector is a daily and Knight's Valor is an encounter, so we're comparing apples and oranges a bit here, in terms of how dependably they can be used, as well as what you're comparing them against when you equip them. That being said, they obviously have similar effects.

Some feedback has arisen that the 60% damage redirect from Divine Protector feels too weak given that it is a daily. Keep in mind, that while it's true that it's only marginally more effective than Knight's Valor, Divine Protector also provides a 60% damage reduction. That mitigation is not just to the redirected damage either, it's all damage.

If you're about to take a load of damage yourself, popping Knight's Valor will accomplish nothing, but Divine Protector will be a large boon. Keep that in mind as you're comparing the two. That being said, as I've mentioned previously, we'd appreciate your continued feedback on all the upcoming changes, as you get a chance to test them out.

terramak said:

Sacred Weapon
The additional damage dealt by Sacred Weapon has been increased by 50%.

This is a fairly simple change. Sacred Weapon was not very strong. With the fixes to a number of paladin taunt powers, sacred weapon included, we also went in and gave it a buff to damage to make it a stronger choice.

-------

There you have it, hopefully some of you found this information interesting or informative. We understand that class balance changes are a sensitive issue. We'd like to assure the community that we're not attempting to make Paladin a non-viable tank, or push it into a support role. We'll continue to monitor all of your feedback and conduct our own internal playtesting.

Paladin held a position as the tank that you could bring for new/difficult content to allow the party to completely circumvent mechanics, while the Guardian Fighter held the position of the tank you brought to content where the mechanics were well understood or easier to survive in order to deal more damage and run content quicker.

Although we'd like both tanks to feel and play differently, these are not the two niches we'd like them to fill, as it feels bad for everyone. We'd like to continue to bring them closer together in terms of their usefulness and apologize for the bumpy road as we get there.

For those wondering what sort of internal testing we have done with these changes, on our production staff we have a team member who mains an endgame protection paladin, they ran Fangbreaker before the changes and were instrumental in providing feedback and conveying the feelings of the paladin community as we made adjustments.

During the adjustment period we played Assault on Svardborg a lot, with one Paladin and one Guardian Fighter tanking. At the end of the adjustment period we felt that both were able to survive all of the mechanics with their final tuning. In addition, when we felt like we were in a good spot, we ran Fangbreaker Island as well, to ensure that Paladin could still hold its own in large and difficult pulls.

We urge you all to give these changes a try in your own groups and keep sending your feedback. Thanks for reading!

cromejohnsen · October 2016

asterdahl said:

terramak said:

For those wondering what sort of internal testing we have done with these changes, on our production staff we have a team member who mains an endgame protection paladin, they ran Fangbreaker before the changes and were instrumental in providing feedback and conveying the feelings of the paladin community as we made adjustments.

During the adjustment period we played Assault on Svardborg a lot, with one Paladin and one Guardian Fighter tanking. At the end of the adjustment period we felt that both were able to survive all of the mechanics with their final tuning. In addition, when we felt like we were in a good spot, we ran Fangbreaker Island as well, to ensure that Paladin could still hold its own in large and difficult pulls.

We urge you all to give these changes a try in your own groups and keep sending your feedback. Thanks for reading!

WOW. That must be the only PROTECTION Paladin running endgame content in your team ( which feats did he use? Justice or Bulwark?). Did you also consider not bringing an anointed champion dc into the fight? Did you try running fangbreaker without heal at all ? Because thats when you see how well they do on their own. Its not right to say both of them held their own against Storvald because we had 2 AA spamming dcs behind them.
Again Knights valor and divine Protector is like apples and oranges. Very situational, both with advantages and disadvantages in different scenarios ( large add pulls or boss fights).
While the Paladin needs to actively build up his AP to cast a one time 6 sec bubble for 60% redirected dmg and a 60% damage reduction, the GF on the other hand can just block his way through. 1 strong hit from the enemy boss and his AP is full (takes about 1 sec), allowing him to recast his Daily ( making him immune to Control effects, giving him more dmg and damage resistance). The problem is that on top of that KV is an encounter which is active all the time. No consecutive casting animations ( 1-2 sec for divine Protector)! So in the 6 sec the Paladin needs to regain his ap, the GF can do all the above mentioned (daily + dmg + party buff ) without worrying too much about survivability, because in you scenario you are running with a DC i assume. What can the paladin do? Divine Protector is an underwhelming Daily compared to the Daily abilites of the GF.

bonnine · October 2016

Divine Protector :considering the huge nerf you should adjust skill duration, 6 sec is just to short for what it does now (10 sec would be nice)

Circle of Power : we should be able to give allies dmg buff. the lack of dmg buffs is what makes devotion pally undesirable in partys, protection was wanted because of divine protector and now that gone

Binding Oath : i dont like the change, alot harder to keep myself alive, 100% of max hp doesnt seem enough (maybe double that)

the change to sanctuary dr bonus from 60% to 80% means nothing since dr caps at 80% so sanctuary is only useful for cc immunity. Make it so that it works like gf shield (extra layer) and reduce it to 50%

Absolution : even with the changes this skill seems weak, i would have prefered whole party shield (like 50% of max hp for whole party minus the dr buff to balance it)

two30 · October 2016

Feedback: Circle of Power
Circle of Power is a very slow cast and is easy to accidentally interrupt by hitting your next power's key too soon. If you're going to reduce Circle of Power's duration by half, you should reduce its casting time by half.

krankran · October 2016

(not sure why but my font colour tags don't seem to be doing anything)

Is the mimic server the right one to be testing the latest changes?

BUGS currently on the mimic server that I saw:

Binding Oath
* doesn't generate any Divine Call
* doesn't apply your DR when giving you damage when the shield dies
* seems to deal more damage to me than the enemies next to me rather than the other way round

Circle of Power doesn't generate any Divine Call or Action Points

Shield of Faith doesn't give any damage reduction when used with Absolution but works fine with Binding Oath

Divine Protector doesn't give any damage reduction when used with Absolution but works fine with Binding Oath

Bane doesn't generate any Divine Call or Action Points

Sanctuary gives no extra damage reduction when used with Absolution

Having Absolution give an increase to DR rather than be a separate damage reduction shield makes it near useless with high defence or combined with Circle of Power or using Sanctuary etc since it seems to hit an 80% DR cap

All looks pretty broken tbh

flowcyto · October 2016

"Feedback: Circle of Power
Circle of Power is a very slow cast and is easy to accidentally interrupt by hitting your next power's key too soon. If you're going to reduce Circle of Power's duration by half, you should reduce its casting time by half."

I've mentioned something like this before, but I hope they take it into consideration.

-
.. You know, OP vs. GF would prob be easier to balance if you guys just went ahead and changed the way OP's Sanctuary layers so Prot OP's block is closer to GF's Guard at the high-end in terms of how much dmg is mitigated. This means both classes are more dependent on good blocking instead of having to be tied too much to specific encounters to soak heavy dmg. Just throwing that out there.

emilemo · October 2016

Feedback: After playing my paladin on preview thru the weekend I stand by my first assessment - you broke the class. Not all parties are equal dear devs, many parties who want to run CN for example, consist of guys who barely pass the IL requirements but still have the right to run the dungeon. Its in that type of scenario where a Paladin tank can really shine and help push a run that would otherwise fail. The bis scenario is not а representative sample, the bis guys who group and run stuff are a minority. What about small guilds like mine where most people are around 2.5 ? What about people who use the public queue system? Those are the majority of the player base and as usual they will suffer because of 1 or 2 end game instances ran by a handful of people. Awesome.

You have to be good at math to be a programmer yes? Please #asterdahl, Im not kidding here. Break down the math for me:

- mod 10.5 paladin walks into CN, with BO, Absolution and Templar's Wrath ON. He has 150 000 base hp (achievable by most players). Big bad Orcus hits him once for 800 000 damage. How much HP does the pally have left after that and will he survive another immediate hit?

krankran · October 2016

> For those wondering what sort of internal testing we have done with these changes, on our production staff we have a team member who mains an endgame protection paladin, they ran Fangbreaker before the changes and were instrumental in providing feedback and conveying the feelings of the paladin community as we made adjustments.
>
> During the adjustment period we played Assault on Svardborg a lot, with one Paladin and one Guardian Fighter tanking. At the end of the adjustment period we felt that both were able to survive all of the mechanics with their final tuning. In addition, when we felt like we were in a good spot, we ran Fangbreaker Island as well, to ensure that Paladin could still hold its own in large and difficult pulls.

So you tested the changes with 1 high il paladin in 2 areas??? I hate to break it to you but that isn't testing that's just a guy messing around with his character.

Testing is when you get a load of different paladins all at different il's with different feats and gear and try to do content appropriate to their level checking that its hard but possible to do content at minimum il and that its not too easy at higher il's. Balance needs to be done across the board and a company like yours should have a team of play testers checking your balance changes to ensure this NOT just a dev with his personal paladin.

Now the above aside, I can see why the changes are needed and do actually agree with them conceptually. We just need to get to a point before release where you fix all the bugs and make sure the powers are balanced so lower il people can still run content.

treesclimber · October 2016

So here is a complete class balance that i've prepared, im not expecting it to be accepted but these changes reflect what i think is wrong in the game based on my gameplay experience~, so it may help developers a bit, and i hope it does, i remember having read something in a post about 2 years ago that NWO must keep not much diferent from WoTC editions of D&D so i'll try to give my sugestions based on that even tough im noob in D&D area.

Problems with the paladin class:
Feedback:
Lack of damage, paladins are warriors with some divine powers mixed up, they should be abble to deal decent amounts of damage and that is a thing i rarelly see hapening, not in the scale of a Guardian fighter for example.

The big problem with Devotion is that if we take away the vow + bond HP goes way too fast down for the player to be abble to have a reaction, while DC can shield many heavy hits and react after that, OP's cant.

The big advantage of Justice is fast cooldowns and big amount of temporary hit points given by templar's wrath that make it superior to light/bullwark in any possible ways also because the production of divine call in battle is small specially in situations where encounters are fixed and dont grant divine call charge giving justice a big step up there.

To fix some these problems:
Divine call refreshes cooldowns by 30% no matter if bullwark/light/justice, divine call production will increase based on the amount of regeneration of the paladin at a rate 1% more divine call each 400 points of regeneration (this is related to the adjustments i made to light and devotion).

Auras:
Underpowered auras:
Devotion:
Protection:
Shared:BUG:
Aura of vengeance is weak, both pvp and pve, exept 1 situation, if a scourge warlock from team 1 has a paladin near him with aura of courage and the team 2 a paladin with aura of vengeance, when the sw uses warlock's bargain it's almost instantaneous kill to the other team player.

Aura of radiance damage is minimal could use a boost.

Auras replaced:

Devotion:

Aura of divinity
Problem: The healing is bad and not helpfull in stress situations
Solution: Will heal 2% of 3 allies life within 30' every second if it fails to heal them it will grant 5% of your hp has temporary hitpoints, doesn't stack.

Protection:

Aura of wrath
Problem: It rarelly takes significant effect, even if does the only bonus it would give to the team would be more effective life steal to bring player back up and what can reaches 35% more damage it's usually no more than 3-4% of the party damage.
Solution:
In the course of battle you become more and more enraged you and your allies will keep gaining outcoming damage increase reaching a maximum of 20% after 30 seconds.(off hand bonus would decrease the movement of enemies as battle goes on but only up to 10%)

Shared:

Aura of solitude.
Problem: Not usable in party and not usable with companions around
Solution:
Aura of hate :
When the paladin gets hit it will increase the paladin damage by 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% over that target by 6 seconds.

Aura of valor
Problem: It has little to no use, normally the paladin can mantain the threath with binding oath, by dealing damage as the paladins base threath is 5 times superior to that of other classes or even by stuning enemies and if a aura has to take it's place, aura of radiance can perfectly do it, needless to say it's even more useless for devotion paladins, if the health of allies does get that lower it wont be for long.
Solution:
Light fader aura, when enemies attack you or your allies they get their defences lowered by 2,5/5/7,5/10% , every 5 seconds all the targets affected by this aura will take 50/100/150%200% of your weapon damage aditionally you and your allies have a 2,5/5/7,5/10% chance striking for 10% more damage targets affected by Light fader aura.

treesclimber · October 2016

Feedback
Feats:

Justice:

Purifying fire
Problem: Very weak, in my case i see results of 2-3% of total damage increasing its's damage will create a unbalance between low geared and well geared paladins.
Solution:
Soul of Vengeance :When a foe affected by vow of enemity strikes at you, you retrieve 3/6/9/12/15% of that damage back and reduce all your cooldowns by 3/8/12/16/20% (5 seconds cooldown) aditionally targets affected by vow take 10% more damage from you.

Furious reversal
Problem: This is not a bad feat when paired with prism and burning light but it's purpose was only team healing, because a paladin rarelly gets that low on health, not just that but also is a tank and needs to be alive, making a throw for life steal is not very wise way to do it .
Solution: When droping bellow 50% health all your attacks will restore 10% of it's damage to you.

Steam the tide:
Problem: This feat makes absolutly no sence, not just i would have to dismiss my companion but also i would have to ask everyone to stay away from me.
Solution:
Haste – your allies have a 10/12,5/15/17,5/20% chance of refiling action points bar after a dailly use.

Prism
Problem: It causes big amounts of lag, i dont know what's the reason for that but it's very limitating;
Solution:
Shining light - heal 4 allies in a 50' radius for 100% of your weapon damage every second for 20 seconds, grant them 3 to 5% DR and power based on the number of target enemies nearby, this effect stacks with other paladins prism and double apply from the paladin.

Vengefull judge: Your divine call increases your damage by 35% for 10 seconds, your encounters also generate 10% more divine call. (just removed cooldown because it's now class global and instead a random chance of getting a Divine call charge it's 10% granted.)

Bullwark:

Divine call interaction with vilance will be the same exept now if the cooldowns are reduced by divine call and there isn't any vililant stack you'll get them faster.

Exemplar of the light
Problem: This feat was too strong as a high ap generation build would repeat over and over in pvp.
Solution: 200/400/600/800/1000% weapon damage and also affect allies nearby at 50% effectivness..

Holly barrier will retrieve the damage back to your attacker in form of piercing damage (this is just a measure to increment bulwark damage, the influence will be minimal even in pvp).

Light:

Aura gifts it's out of control, if paladins reach 100k power, that translates into 25k more power, that's 62% more damage, a cap of 12k shared power would be around the reasonable, specially because exiting the 30' will mantain the buff for 6 seconds and after all it's a aura, why is it 30' and not 40 with dominant presence?

Share the light; There was nothing wrong with this feat, it's simply one more healing propeller and like i said before the problem with devotion is too many heals and too less debuffs, so i replaced this feat so it can be strategically picked from both bullwark/justice/light– Purity nearby enemies deal 5% less damage and allies have 5% increased control resistance.

Healer's touch
Problem: A healer must be global and the reduction based on distance can determine death or live.
Solution When a ally with 50' of you takes damage superior to 30% of his HP 15% will be instantaneouslly healed and you will heal the target for 30% more, the first component has a 20seconds cooldown, the second component will remain untill target enters a near death state.

Powers

Burning light
Problem - Can be a big problem in pvp, it completly blocks other players, not just that but it's damage is almost null only being decent when paired with aura of courage.
Solution: Give it a damage boost, reduce the number of “waves” but include something like “foes affected by the burn will have 30% slower cooldowns for 10 seconds”.

Smite healing area should be increased to a decent amount, very explicit the problem here.....

Sacred weapon is dealing a nice amount of damage but. In terms of damage and capabiliies still doesnt get close o smite, i would add a damage debuff of 5% to the target both devotion and protection.

Templar's wrath
Problem: Granted temporary HP is tiny, really really bad;
Soltution: Kinda obvious, increase Temp HP .

Oath strike provides good healing, but area is very short (more or less 20' if im not wrong).

Banishment:
Problem
Freezing a bunch of foes to rescue an allie is reasonable and it may save lives, but mostly it's unecessary it's a slot ocuppied by a encounter that is very situational.
This “Banishment: This power no longer makes targets immune to damage when the control component is resisted” does'nt make it viable in many targets situation because nobody wants target geting banned over and over and over making a dungeon last the double just for “protection”.

Solution:
Protection from Energy - :will grant all your allies damage resistance within 25', oath of protection will stun enemy targets within 15' of that area, oath of devotion heal allies(similar, but no imunity to damage).
Decrease cooldown;
Increase base damage of the power;

Divine touch:
Problem: Healing is too powerfull, makes no sence healing 300k hp on a crit, but weak for fresh starters paladins.

Solution:
Make and exeption outof this power making it not crit but have it's base heal increased, and since Devotion OP has nothing related to gift of faith and this power is much easier to apply than the ones granting gift of faith make this power trigger a heal for 30% HP when the players goes bellow 70% HP but this benefit can only trigger by 15 seconds after power use, beeing the cooldown of this healing 30 seconds. Also needs a damage increase as damage is too low.

Vow healing is insanelly big, specially in pvp, sugestion make it smaller but work as a Heal over time.

Relentless avenger. Nobody wants a paladin throwing foes around
Sugestion: simply knock them like GF's frontline surge, protection paladins would also knock the main target and devotion would heal all allies around.

Bond of Virtue: this is the main encounter used by healadins, the healing using vow is imediate and efortless.
Sugestion:
Incoming healing bonus: 10/15/20/25%
Heal link: 5/10/15/20%

While on the area all allies have all their stats increased by 10% of the paladin stats exept HP and regeneration stat that increases by 20 and 30% respectivly..
Healing link only applies from healing sources, for example chaotic growth will heal the allly and spread to all others, but just once, oath strike will heal a ally and spread to all others.
While in the bound if the paladin uses cure wounds on a target all allies gain 5% deflect chance.

Daillies.

Heroism should grant CC resistance as soon as the assigned key is pressed the way is is now it's too slow;

Healing font healing strokes are not bad, but it's performance healing is awfull, i sugest something like half second healing strokes, without the healing sound wich would make everyone angry with the paladin, same story as cure wounds ^^, chaining 5 times like now, if there are no targets to chain and the target is still not full HP it will chain on target up to 2 times. Each set of chains may or not crit. I would really like to see this dailly get a revamp it's a pretty font ^^ and almost nobody uses it because SoF is better.

Divine protector took a sadening nerf, it used to shelter allies in tought moments.....

d4rkh0rs3 · October 2016

@asterdahl

Protector OP needs to be able to perform the following group duties to be a viable tank:

1) As a benchmark, be able to tank Orcus at a respectable ilvl. Multiple DR/shield layers will be necessary considering damage immunity will be removed from Binding Oath. GFs have a separate 80% DR shield layer from their shield block.

2) Offer an effective ecounter-based group DR buff or shield that is "constantly" up (see Knight's Valor). Can Circle of Power be converted to a separate 25% DR layer (up to 40% at rank 4) rather than adding to base DR?

3) Offer comparable group damage buffs. Bane only applies to a single target--any thoughts on making this a 30 or 50ft 5-target AoE?

Beginner Paladins will choose between using AoE group buff from Bane versus Circle of Power for group DR shield, leaving the other two encounters reserved for Absolution and Templar's Wrath.

If Paladin is really skilled, it can drop Templar's Wrath and run Circle of Power and AoE buff Bane with Absolution.

cromejohnsen · October 2016

d4rkh0rs3 said:
@asterdahl

Protector OP needs to be able to perform the following group duties to be a viable tank:

1) As a benchmark, be able to tank Orcus at a respectable ilvl. Multiple DR/shield layers will be necessary considering damage immunity will be removed from Binding Oath. GFs have a separate 80% DR shield layer from their shield block.

2) Offer an effective ecounter-based group DR buff or shield that is "constantly" up (see Knight's Valor). Can Circle of Power be converted to a separate 25% DR layer (up to 40% at rank 4) rather than adding to base DR?

3) Offer comparable group damage buffs. Bane only applies to a single target--any thoughts on making this a 30 or 50ft 5-target AoE?

Beginner Paladins will choose between using AoE group buff from Bane versus Circle of Power for group DR shield, leaving the other two encounters reserved for Absolution and Templar's Wrath.

If Paladin is really skilled, it can drop Templar's Wrath and run Circle of Power and AoE buff Bane with Absolution.

1) So orcus is the new min skill level required to make a tank balanced? What about low level and end game dungeons? The same way you think right now is the same way they did their testing. 2 dungeons max at max item lvl.

2) I think that would totally destroy any purpose of tanking and trivialize all content mentioned. Same goes for the Anointed Army build that 99% of the DCs on this server are running. Better to leave it as is right now and make the dmg buff (20-30%) transfer to allies.
No tank paladin will ever choose to replace templars wrath because its one of his / her core mechanics to survive and generate Divine Call. And as someone already mentioned many of the Paladins encounters do not even generate Divine call yet AP.

Also changing some auras to make them the same as on XBOX would be highly appreciated. Because they have an aura boosting critical chance and severity for nearby allies. What did we get ? See treesclimbers post.

d4rkh0rs3 · October 2016

@cromejohnsen

1) Yes, tanking Orcus is the benchmark in creating a balanced tank. If you cant at least tank Orcus, there is little need for you at mid-to-high end content. Your Paladin will get swapped out every time for a GF in CN.

2) A separate 40% DR layer is not the slightest bit gamebreaking, especially for the only other dedicated tanking class in the game. Its also nowhere near comparable to Anointed Army, which grants much more damage mitigation than a separate 40% DR layer.

d4rkh0rs3 · October 2016

@flowcyto

I agree that Sanctuary needs to provide a separate shield layer for Protection Paladins, mechanically similar to a GF's shield. The benefit should be equal to or less than 40%, in my opinion. This would cause the Protection Paladin to rely more heavily on other shield layers, which is @gentlemancrush's original design concept. (He's no longer with Cryptic if my memory serves me correctly.)

hypervoreian · October 2016

I own both an endgame GF ,defensively specced ,at 3,7k and a heladin at 2,8k

I play my OP since class release and i have done noumerous CN/T2s. and i also have another Op,prot .
I respecced sometimes in preview my healadin to prot to see how it goes.

Feedback concerning changes:

Circle of Power:
The outgoing healing to allies for a Healadin makes no sense.They need incoming healing bonus ,since they are the recipient -target of heals and not the generators of it.

Sacred Weapon:
Still its bonus is minor ,and since OPs have a lot of DoTs ,the bonus goes wasted.Please make it ,the bonus to apply to encounters only.

Bane:
You mentioned now bane counts as an encounter.have not tested it yet.Does that means that it stops purrifying fire effect?
And another observation:
Same as Absolution most of the times,if we do not target the enemy add high ,using the camera ,we end up casting bane on our party members.
For example the second CN boss,all are around him and he is not tall,it is very difficuolt after battle starts and party members swarm him,to cast bane to him.
please remove the ability to cast bane on allies.

general observations concerning Paladin powers and balance:

Guys, @asterdahl @terramak ,you will never balance OP until you look into Justice tree capstone.
Why?
You mentioned some powers ICD: For OPs this is irrelevant.
Spesifically you mentioned Circle of power and how much it has a long ICD.
For my poor 2,8k Justice Healadin with barely 2,3k recovery and no Snail or Fire Weapons:he is perfectly capable to cast one Circle inside of another and overlap them even now.
And this not for one time...i can do it routinely and in a course of a dungeon run i can have Circle activated 100% of the time.
With 60 secs ICD of the target power and 2,3k recovery from my side.....

High geared ,or worst mid to high geared ProT OPs in Justice tree ,are perfectly able to hold Divine Protector 80% uptime in an FBI run.Seasoned Justice prot Ops bypass any ICD of any encounter by using Divine Judge stacks and Sigil Of Devotion when necessary.

Solution:
Rework Justice tree,get rid of the encounter reduction altogether and give a permanent increase +35-40% in a mechanism completely same with Righteous DC,Avatar.Plus givea permanent -30% encounter reduction time along with the increased damage ,whern capstone is activated.but no Judge calls to refresh the recharging powers.

Other suggestions:

Increase Paladin damage.Att wills ,encounters and Purrifying Fire effect.
Increase Smite damage.
Remove the knock effect of R.Avenger.
Increase Divine touch damage.

Make Sanctuary a distinct DR layer as GF's Shield. 50% for Prots and 30% for healadins.

Increase the heroic feat Dominating presence aura radious.Currently is too low.

jase2cool · November 2016

asterdahl said:

terramak said:

Divine Protector
Divine protector now redirects 60% of damage taken by nearby allies, down from 100%. The damage reduction effect on the Paladin has been increased to 60%, up from 50%.
It was not that long ago that Divine Protector had some adjustments made to it. However, both the development team and the community were not happy with where the power was left after those changes. It became difficult to use due to the dramatic decrease in resistance it provided to the paladin, in addition, the invulnerability it provided to party members allowed a number of mechanics to be trivialized.

With the upcoming changes, Paladins will be getting more survivability out of the power, but allies will no longer have 100% of their damage taken redirected. Divine Protector will certainly help allies survive stray damage or a few small mistakes, but a completely lethal mechanic will still be lethal or at least very dangerous. In addition, if a handful of allies eat an AoE, it is not necessarily instant death for the Paladin with these changes.

As comparisons to Knight's Valor often come up, I'd like to speak briefly about it. For one, obviously Divine Protector is a daily and Knight's Valor is an encounter, so we're comparing apples and oranges a bit here, in terms of how dependably they can be used, as well as what you're comparing them against when you equip them. That being said, they obviously have similar effects.

Some feedback has arisen that the 60% damage redirect from Divine Protector feels too weak given that it is a daily. Keep in mind, that while it's true that it's only marginally more effective than Knight's Valor, Divine Protector also provides a 60% damage reduction. That mitigation is not just to the redirected damage either, it's all damage.

If you're about to take a load of damage yourself, popping Knight's Valor will accomplish nothing, but Divine Protector will be a large boon. Keep that in mind as you're comparing the two. That being said, as I've mentioned previously, we'd appreciate your continued feedback on all the upcoming changes, as you get a chance to test them out.

We urge you all to give these changes a try in your own groups and keep sending your feedback. Thanks for reading!

@asterdahl Not sure if anyone told you yet but please note that...
Guardian Fighter uses Knight valor + holding shield up is reduces 50% incoming damage to whole party (knight valor) and then the damage are reduce by 80% for holding shield up (on top of Damage Resistance due to holding shield up is reduces incoming damage and its unlike granting extra damage resistance like sanctuary which are capped at 80%)

As for endgame paladin normally will have maxed out 80% Damage Resistance where Sanctuary basically useless and Paladin cant maintain threat generation once they have sanctuary up (not to mention it takes awhile to start up)

As for Binding Oath
100% hp as shield will only mean a couple of blow from normal mobs in fangbreaker island (include everfrost damage) will bring it down) once its down the 50% discount from incoming damage goes with it ... would suggest remain the 50% discount of incoming damage for a fix amount of time instead (even after shield runs out) if any changes will be made...binding oath damage reduction its one of the few only ways of us Paladin way reduces damage efficiently

So in order to make up for 80% reduce of incoming damage(not damage resistance) an Paladin will have to use Binding Oath and probably need to turn on binding oath and uses a daily such as shield of faith

Please consider all this factors before tweaking Paladin key signature skills

emilemo · November 2016

So many good suggestions that simply go way out there. The Devs need short and on point feedback here not suggestions for complete class reworks. Im not saying your posts were garbage guys, on the contrary I agree with most of them but if we hope to have at least a playable Paladin come mod 10.5 we need to focus on the most important aspect and that is tanking. Lets make sure @asterdahl makes the new Paladin a viable tank first (which the Paladin isnt without BO). Then at some point when they start the Pally overhaul we can offer them the rest of the feedback that Im sure we all have.

If BO and Absolution are shipped as they are on preview the Paladin will need something else in order to tank. Easiest way to do that in my opinion is make Sanctuary into a separate layer of damage resistance and lower the value from 80 back to 60%

Also Id like to ask somebody who knows more than me what is the route damage travels before hitting the player HP? I believe the personal, base DR should be the last threshold incoming damage needs to go thru before hitting the HP. So if a Pally uses the new BO, the 50% of the damage that is coming to him after BO is depleted first goes thru his base passive DR. Is that the way it is ?

armadeonx · November 2016

As many others have said, Paladins (like Guardian Fighters) stack DR, as such Sanctuary becomes less and less useful as the player improves. Having it reduce incoming damage instead of boosting DR would work a lot better. My Pally is about 3.2k and has 74% DR at rest. The extra 6% doesn't really do it for me.

I would like to make three suggestions:

1. Sanctuary reduces incoming damage as a separate layer to DR. (& please boost its healing!)
2. The new BO shield is based on current HP including temp - that way I can force attacks toward me when I'm optimal.
3. Blinding Light is changed so it can be used/charged whilst moving - standing still for 4 secs whilst it charges really negates its worth. Releasing it when full should happen when I release the button - not when it hits 'full' so I can time it effectively. It'd also be REALLY good if it gets released if the OP is stunned!

Edit: I forgot one - Smite gives a 3 second reduction on damage output to the target - please increase that duration so the skill can be effectively used as a debuff option in boss fights - maybe add 1 sec duration per point?

At present if a pally fighting orcus usually slots BO and Bane, neither of these generate Divine Call or AP which seriously impacts effectiveness. Imo it'd be better to run 2 skills that generate DC/AP plus one that doesn't - to me, being able to enter a boss fight with TW & Smite plus Bane/BO/CoP as options for either debuff/survival/party buff.

When health suddenly drops, the OP should be able to sit in Sanctuary, giving extra DR via the separate layer plus healing them back up effectively - I think the extra healing is warranted due to the inability to use any other powers whilst it's up. They are effectively taking a 'time out' as they are not generating threat, the rest of the group is getting the damage during this time.

armadeonx · November 2016

By the way, can I ask why Paladins are the only class getting serious rework(s) without getting an actual Class Balance? It does strike me as unfair that the Pally is on the receiving end of change after change without the full picture being looked at.

Now the GF class rebalance has been implemented and everyone knows where they stand, surely the Paladin's should follow immediately and a 'full picture' review is implemented to ensure they have equal viability?

Let's be clear, the Paladin is receiving more nerfs than buffs at a time where they are already regarded as second class.

Right from the early days of it's existence, the OP was regarded as needed by low IL groups and high IL parties preferred the GF due to the buffs.

Even with ITF being levelled out, this is still the current meta. I understand that FBI gave the OP a sudden opportunity to be relevant again (for the wrong reasons) but instead of going 'back to the drawing board' with Binding Oath, how about you bite the bullet and get back to the drawing board with the entire class?

At present it really feels like "chip, chip, chip - nerf, nerf, nerf". I know you've made a few small improvements but you do appear to overlook the core point: Everything the Pally can do, the Guardian Fighter does it better.

That previously excluded 'survivability' but as that is the primary focus of these adjustments, that anomaly has now been corrected.

kitkathd · November 2016

armadeonx said:
By the way, can I ask why Paladins are the only class getting serious rework(s) without getting an actual Class Balance? It does strike me as unfair that the Pally is on the receiving end of change after change without the full picture being looked at.

Now the GF class rebalance has been implemented and everyone knows where they stand, surely the Paladin's should follow immediately and a 'full picture' review is implemented to ensure they have equal viability?

Let's be clear, the Paladin is receiving more nerfs than buffs at a time where they are already regarded as second class.

Right from the early days of it's existence, the OP was regarded as needed by low IL groups and high IL parties preferred the GF due to the buffs.

Even with ITF being levelled out, this is still the current meta. I understand that FBI gave the OP a sudden opportunity to be relevant again (for the wrong reasons) but instead of going 'back to the drawing board' with Binding Oath, how about you bite the bullet and get back to the drawing board with the entire class?

At present it really feels like "chip, chip, chip - nerf, nerf, nerf". I know you've made a few small improvements but you do appear to overlook the core point: Everything the Pally can do, the Guardian Fighter does it better.

That previously excluded 'survivability' but as that is the primary focus of these adjustments, that anomaly has now been corrected.

Because they are trying to make the gear with everfrost matter, and pally's were making the damage irrelevant with constant DP's and binding oath immunity at the really late game/whale level. Now they are nerfing the hell out of that not realizing they are completely destroying the game for the remaining 95% of the pally population. Don't worry Cryptic, nothing you can actually do will bring this pally back. Well unless you revert ALL changes. I mean, taking away the divine protector and just throwing us a respec token when half of us had rank 12 recoveries, and artifacts/sets for recovery just seems rude doesn't it?

emilemo · November 2016

If they ship the class as broken as it is on preview I'll just do dailies with dungeon delves up to epic temple of the spider. If they fix it some time in the future I may even think about spending money again. Its fair to say they will fix it at some point because nearly every class in the game has had periods of irrelevance. I recall a time when GFs couldnt tank at all because they died too easy to trash mobs and look at them now. For the time being tho they are losing a paying customer and gaining a free to play one. Big whoop.

tutelo · November 2016

@asterdahl:

First of all, texting from cell phone so couldnt color code

"emilemo wrote:

If BO and Absolution are shipped as they are on preview the Paladin will need something else in order to tank. Easiest way to do that in my opinion is make Sanctuary into a separate layer of damage resistance and lower the value from 80 back to 60%"

I think this is the best suggestion for the tanking issue for Paladins. Your current concept for BO and Absolution sound good on paper and as an idea, but in practice they wont perform as you guys expect it because most OP have already capped DR. By changing Sanctuary into a separate DR layer it gives us a better chance at tanking.

"armadeonx wrote:

I would like to make three suggestions:

1. Sanctuary reduces incoming damage as a separate layer to DR. (& please boost its healing!)
3. Burning Light is changed so it can be used/charged whilst moving - standing still for 4 secs whilst it charges really negates its worth. Releasing it when full should happen when I release the button - not when it hits 'full' so I can time it effectively. It'd also be REALLY good if it gets released if the OP is stunned!"

These are good suggestions, and people will probably be more accepting of these if implemented.

Binding Oath: I would change it so the shield is based on max HP+ 50%Temp HP at least.

Relentless Avenger: Please change the knockback effect for a stun or prone effect. No one and i really mean no players, specially in parties, like the knockback of RA. Using it means risking getting kicked out of a party or some colorful choice of HAMSTER words from other players.

Sacred Weapon: damage is nice in preview, but why would I take this over Burning light or smite? It is limited to 3 attacks. I would change it so that instead of 3x attacks, the encounter applies to all attacks for 5-8 seconds.
.
.
.
.

Truth is, the OP needs a real class balance like the GF got, instead of the first-aid/nerfs done since the class introduction. I would suggest that for the next planned class balance, you take a good look at the OP and the powers no one uses like Divine Touch or even Banishment. Depending on how this upcoming patch goes, I feel a lot of the OP players might shelve the class and move on to others.

armadeonx · November 2016

I am for one. I'm seriously considering rolling a Guardian Fighter and transferring all of my Pally enchantments & rings to him. I could have him at 3k by the next 2x RP. Hmm, I'm actually really tempted by the thought now lol.

"Relentless Avenger: Please change the knockback effect for a stun or prone effect. No one and i really mean no players, specially in parties, like the knockback of RA. Using it means risking getting kicked out of a party or some colorful choice of HAMSTER words from other players."

I like that idea - relentless is one of our best solo skills that absolutely cannot be used in a party as sending enemies flying in all directions REALLY pisses people off!

emilemo · November 2016

armadeonx said:
I am for one. I'm seriously considering rolling a Guardian Fighter and transferring all of my Pally enchantments & rings to him. I could have him at 3k by the next 2x RP. Hmm, I'm actually really tempted by the thought now lol.

"Relentless Avenger: Please change the knockback effect for a stun or prone effect. No one and i really mean no players, specially in parties, like the knockback of RA. Using it means risking getting kicked out of a party or some colorful choice of HAMSTER words from other players."

I like that idea - relentless is one of our best solo skills that absolutely cannot be used in a party as sending enemies flying in all directions REALLY pisses people off!

I already have a 70 GF with up to date armor&weapons and a mix of epic/legendary artifacts however I refuse to go class hopping in this game anymore. There is a very serious trust issue going on here as players feel cheated after investing money into something that gets later completely shafted. So no more class hopping and no more money spending on alts far as I'm concerned.

I feel like those guys from Syria, HAMSTER hits the fan and they have to immigrate. Well, since the launch of Neverwinter Ive tried all classes, geared some to quite a high level and finally stopped at the Paladin. It'was the class most in sync with my playstyle and Im gonna either stick with him or stop playing. At this point i dont really care which

armadeonx · November 2016

You know, a potential area for tackling the inequality between the two tank classes is the pally aura choices.

Essentially, a decent GF runs with a constant:
50% party-wide reduction on incoming damage
25% party-wide DPS and Movement buff
15% AP gain over 8 secs
plus layered protections on top of 80% DR

Aura of Courage provides a DPS boost based on HP - this needs a similar fix to ITF so it gives a flat boost of 15% to party members. Aura of Truth needs a boost from 12.5% reduction on incoming damage to (imo) 50% reduction to match KV. Lets not talk about SoF & DP as GFs have their own Dailies too!

Pallies almost universally have Wisdom permanently slotted for encounter cooldowns out of necessity. I'd love to be able to remove this, slot Truth & Courage for de/buffing and focus my all encounters of generating threat and smashing the enemy!

emilemo · November 2016

Agreed but KV has drawbacks, an aura can never be as effective as KV. Still if Aura of Truth was a 30% dmg debuff on enemies I'd be more than happy to use it

tutelo · November 2016

If only we could...

Whats more likely is a 20% dmg debuff for Aura of truth.

The two problems with the Paladin class are that it feels like a poor man's version of a GF, and that it doesnt have a sense of purpose like the tabletop D&D version. The tabletop Paladin felt like a holy knight, but the NWO Pally just feels like a GF with auras. Where are the Paladin's holy powers?

The class concept as a whole needs to be reevaluated.

Sanctuary: with the ability to heal unlike a GF, im surprised it doesnt generate threat too. So my suggestion is to make sanctuary a separate layer of DR, keep it at the current 60% and make it generate threat on the paladin while its active.

d4rkh0rs3 · November 2016

@armadeonx makes a good point, similar to what I posted earlier. A group must decide between taking a GF or OPP when running difficult content. Future OPP changes should be made keeping class balance in mind by relating OPP changes to what the GF brings to the table.

Compare the following and feel free to expand on either class:

GF party benefits:
1) 50% damage reduction from KV
2) 30-35% damage buff from ITF+Inspiring Leader Tactitian Feat
3) 50% additive movement speed
4) AP generation from Martial Mastery Tactitian capstone
5) +10% damage debuff from Crushing Pin
6) edit: Ability to mark targets at-will, hard taunt and combat advantage. @beckylunatic
7) Other beneficial but less significant small damage/damage mitigation buffs.

GF tanking:
1) 80% shield layer DR
2) Fighter's Recovery
3) Steel Defense
4) edit: Threat generation
5) Other less significant factors

---

OP party benefits:
1) Divine Protector
2) Circle of Power
3) Aura of ________
4) Bane

OP tanking:
1) Sanctuary (base DR)
2) Absolution
3) Binding Oath
4) Templar's Wrath

Right now, the clear edge goes to the GF in both tanking and party benefit categories.

beckylunatic · November 2016

d4rkh0rs3 said:

GF party benefits:

Ability to mark targets at-will, hard taunt and combat advantage.

Official Feedback Thread: Oathbound Paladin Changes (Sea of Moving Ice)

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