Everything I am going to write is from a group-member-perspective. I dont play a paladin. I can just tell you the things I experienced in the time I did runs with paladin tanks on the preview.
I did some runs on the preview with paladins (Svardborg(Master) + FBI) and I think the paladin is in a pretty good state now. The devs just pushed the class down from its golden throne. Paladins are finally no longer gods. It is now a class that needs some brain and skill to be played. Aura of Courage makes up to 25% of the total damage of some classes, especially CWs can reach this amount. We are not talking about +X% effictivness. We are talking about X% of their total damage which is insanely much. I also think that Aura of Courage alone is a stronger dmg push than all gf buffs together. I dont see a point in buffing paladins in buffs that they can apply on the group.
Now the class as a tank. The class is still a very strong tank if the player know how to play his class. We didnt have any problems in FBI, neither in Svardborg. The bubble and BO arent op anymore. I think they are still strong abilitys if you know how to use it. The group needs to play with brain and need to dodge attacks now which is a good thing in my opinion. The balance changes made the content more interesting and more fun because the paladin cant make the whole group immortal any longer. We even needed to use the glyph mechanic in Svardborg(Master). Before the paladin changes we could simply skip it because of bubble + BO. Same with Call of Winter in FBI, we needed to hide behind the ice because a pala cant survive it anymore. People are forced now to use the machanics in the dungeons which is a good thing.
In end game OP is invulnerable by skipping ICDs though Justice Divine calls and casting BO one after another ,staying immortal for ever. This is waht devs see ,this is why they rework BO and DP time after time:At high end gear, simply OP class trivialize the content by the combination BO/templar and DivP.
You compare KV with Divine protector: As right was said it is like comparing oranges with apples: GF can be killed by kv while you ,simply cant; GF solo tanking FBI is rare and demands expensive gear and setup while 3,4+ OPs roll through it.GF has to face enemy while blocking while OP needs not,BO takes care of that.
You have an ability that makes you practically immortal for 6 secs every 8 secs.Binding oath.On top of that you have a capstone that skips ICDs.Justice one. Three divine calls and a 60 sec ICD of Circle is pulverized in 4 secs.Don't say to me this is not possible cause i can do it every time .
I am not an enemy : Heal OP is my second char and sometimes it was considered my first.
But the state of the OP community is not good:I went into the Citadel today and i saw a lot of times people saying OP is slow: One of the not slow classes.
Swift Flash and Radiant Champion ring a bell??Just an example .
generally:
A well specced ,geared OP offers to a party:
Radiant Champion:25% movement speed,5% ICD reduction To my side: 15% movement speed
Aura of courage: 10% to 25% party DPS increase ,depending on class Bane : +30% damage -30% damage taken Aura of Wisdom: -30% ICDs Shield of faith/Divine protector dailies=enough said
All these while Prot Ops gain power for free through their oath:This is the Bulwark effect that was removed of GFs armor set in mod 1 .Well you have it permanent for free.
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OPs got two reworks up to now:I was the only one in first and among two in second that suggested RA to have its knock effect removed. None of you said anything you all had focus on Bubble mode.It was sad.Sad.
The number of high IL Prot OPs that run away /kite or circling around Demo ,dragons or orcus is large.
The vast majority of Prot OPs never went beyond the bubble mode way of thinking.It is not your fault however I don't blame you.OP class should never be released in Mod6.But in mod7 at least.
As i posted OP has a lot of flaws ,more damage is urgently needed for all paths.
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Ask for well needed buffs:
An increase to the heroic feat dominating Presense would solve OP utility problems instantly. now it is 10 feet more radius to auras. If that was changed to 4/8/12/16/20 ,you would be more reliant buffers.
This is fine, except youre not taking into consideration that the OP tanking abilities increase the base DR of the Paladin versus the GF which has a separate layer of DR with its shield. So most of these abilities are nearly useless since most paladins are running around with max DR. Take a look below:
"d4rkh0rs3 said:
Compare the following and feel free to expand on either class:
GF party benefits: 1) 50% damage reduction from KV 2) 30-35% damage buff from ITF+Inspiring Leader Tactitian Feat 3) 50% additive movement speed 4) AP generation from Martial Mastery Tactitian capstone 5) +10% damage debuff from Crushing Pin 6) edit: Ability to mark targets at-will, hard taunt and combat advantage. @beckylunatic 7) Other beneficial but less significant small damage/damage mitigation buffs.
GF tanking: 1) 80% shield layer DR 2) Fighter's Recovery 3) Steel Defense 4) edit: Threat generation 5) Other less significant factors
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OP party benefits: 1) Divine Protector 2) Circle of Power 3) Aura of ________ 4) Bane 5) Shield of Faith (base DR)
Golden throne? hehehe. Maybe in FBI it had this status for a few weeks but believe me, with a 3.2k OP I still need to pug to get in to CN because no premade groups will take me unless I run with guildies.
25% damage for CW's sure because they tick low damage dots from the likes of Icy Terrain & Conduit of Ice that are 'upgraded' by adding a set amount of damage based on the pallys HP - the same set damage on the likes of a GWF is a whole lot less than 25%. Can I also remind you that this "insanely much" amount is the same amount ALL dps players get from ITF? Basically, the bigger the hits from the attacker, the smaller the % Courage contributes - unlike the straight 25% on everything from the GF.
Let me be clear and repeat something I've said on many occasions. The 'Bubble' was always a mistake - it should never have existed. I'm onside with the devs on the point that immortality trivialises content, makes runs boring and the game pointless.
What I DO want is the Paladin to have equal group protection, buff and debuff capabilities - currently the only thing a pally offers that beats an equal IL GF is Divine Protector and the ability to soak up even EF damage via BO. Get rid of DP - rewrite that power slot into something completely different. BO however is mainly used by geared pallies for bosses ONLY and as such the new 'shield' effect has to be scaled with that in mind.
Personally I find even this discussion depressing, defending the obvious from the oblivious.
DPS classes just need to ask themselves one thing : excluding the pre-nerf FBI, if you were forming a group and had the choice to bring along either an unknown pally or guardian fighter of equal IL and stats, which would you choose.
Anyone who's stood in PE to form a premade for pretty much anything knows how most people who choose.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I have already been gearing my original main GF with thoughts of switching it to be my main full time, with these changes you @asterdahl have effectively killed the Protection spec paladin and I won't waste one more dime on this class spec, I will probably respec to devotion (healers are worthless end game because you Devs refuse to nerf life steal) and shelf this character for good or at least until you nerf GF ability to tank, I am just glad that I have prepared for this for awhile and that enchantments are not bound. You have done nothing but nerf this class from the day it was released, this has been my first mmo and I got caught up in the new shiny class that was released and will not be salty about that because it taught me a valuable lesson about the mmo genre. new BO=garbage DP change with no increase in length=garbage and sacred weapon? lol always has been garbage, and you have the stones to say we have been buffed..... neutered more like it.
Aura of Courage is a nice DPS boost, especially on characters with relatively low damage DoTs. The damage itself is based on OP HPs:
If I hit for 1,000 and Aura of Courage procs for 1,000, Aura of Courage is 50% of my overall damage (1,000 / 2,000).
If I hit for 1,000,000 and Aura of Courage procs for 1,000, Aura of Courage is ~0.1% of my overall damage (1,000 / 1,001,000).
I have not seen any Mod 10+ analysis comparing the overall outgoing damage benefit between GF's ITF and OP's Aura of Courage, but my bet is, in the majority of cases, ITF wins. You may argue against this if you run with 4 Fury SWs, though, who knows.
This is why I recommended adjusting Bane to cause a 10% damage debuff per stack (3 max) to all enemies within 50ft. This would naturally remove the ability to cast it on friendlies or unwanted trash adds.
Tl;dr: In the majority of cases, ITF > Aura of Courage until proven otherwise.
Like @beckylunatic said, countless people have complained about Rentless Avenger, Sunburst, and CW knockback abilities.
Golden throne? hehehe. Maybe in FBI it had this status for a few weeks
DPS classes just need to ask themselves one thing : excluding the pre-nerf FBI, if you were forming a group and had the choice to bring along either an unknown pally or guardian fighter of equal IL and stats, which would you choose.
Definetly the paladin. Pala is superior is almost every point in my opinion. A GF dies pretty fast in some situations without a good AC DC. Even after the nerfs the paladin still feels like the stronger tank and I am saying this as a CW who did over 200 FBI runs.
I dont get why almost everyone in this thread is complaining about the nerfs and the class is not good enough anymore. The paladin has been an totally overpowered tank since it was released and finally it has been turned down to a normal, just a strong class.
Just take the encounter that gives temp hp for your group (sry I dont know the name, was one of the reworked encounters. It was "Shield" and "Prisma" in ACT) it had a pretty strong group protection effect during our Svardborg run. One of our tank pallys was rank 1 in healing with over 50! million of healing (in 7.53min). This was all temp HP that protected us and it was simply amazing. Together with the new bubble and BO a pala in my group still let me feel safer than a GF that tries to protect our group.
yeah thats a healadin... protection pallies are the ones under discussion. The selling point for a prot pally was always that they were good at keeping the group alive and the gf was better at buffing.
The amount of times I've pug q'd into a dungeon and someone has said something to the effect of "oh, a paladin..."
Last week I went into a CN where there was no healer, a 2.4k GF, 3 dps and my 3.2k pally. The dps'ers were actually DEBATING which of the two tanks to kick!
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
OPs got two reworks up to now:I was the only one in first and among two in second that suggested RA to have its knock effect removed.
To be fair, this has come up so many times in so many topics about paladins that I think most people just consider it redundant to keep asking.
But sure, plz make knockbacks die in a fire.
To be fair,I said about the feedback threads,and in that I stand in what I said ,and these threads matter,cause are the only ones that quaranteed get the attention of the developers.
In a class balance pre period release ,it is of no importance to what people think,except if the state it in the appropriate threads-feedback ones and support it with arguments.Nothing is obvious except if stated .
Divine touch seems obvious that is worthless cause it hits 1/3 of an Op att will,yet I don't recall often people asking for a change. Just an example
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
1. Sanctuary reduces incoming damage as a separate layer to DR. (& please boost its healing!)
3. Burning Light is changed so it can be used/charged whilst moving - standing still for 4 secs whilst it charges really negates its worth. Releasing it when full should happen when I release the button - not when it hits 'full' so I can time it effectively. It'd also be REALLY good if it gets released if the OP is stunned!"
These are good suggestions, and people will probably be more accepting of these if implemented.
Binding Oath: I would change it so the shield is based on max HP+ 50%Temp HP at least.
Relentless Avenger: Please change the knockback effect for a stun or prone effect. No one and i really mean no players, specially in parties, like the knockback of RA. Using it means risking getting kicked out of a party or some colorful choice of HAMSTER words from other players.
Sacred Weapon: damage is nice in preview, but why would I take this over Burning light or smite? It is limited to 3 attacks. I would change it so that instead of 3x attacks, the encounter applies to all attacks for 5-8 seconds.
Good sugestions. About BO the big problem in making it more powerfull is PVP really....well TR's have powers that works diferently in pvp as do HR, GF and CW's, if the aim is to make it work right seems logical that the best way is split pvp from pve.
@hastati96 yeah that was a devotion spec paladin not a protection spec paladin if it's healing for 50 mil, please get your facts straight before making an opinion on changes to class that you don't even play and posting on a thread about Protection spec. Because these changes drastically affect tank paladin players toons.
Reality is that since the original nerf to DP, palatanks were not as desirable as GFs, and were getting kicked out of PUGs regardless of ilvl. Happened to me a few times. The issue has worse if there was a GF and OP in the party; pallys were kicked out period. IMO the permabubble had to go; it was a crutch. But by removing it, it exposed the shortcomings of the class and nothing has been seriously done to fix it. It needs a true rebalance, not a band-aid.
But on another note, if you want to know if these changes are viable, why dont we have a mid-ilvl pally do a CN run in the preview server and see if he can successfully tank Orcus? We'll see how that goes... (°¿°)
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Definetly the paladin. Pala is superior is almost every point in my opinion. A GF dies pretty fast in some situations without a good AC DC. Even after the nerfs the paladin still feels like the stronger tank and I am saying this as a CW who did over 200 FBI runs.
I dont get why almost everyone in this thread is complaining about the nerfs and the class is not good enough anymore. The paladin has been an totally overpowered tank since it was released and finally it has been turned down to a normal, just a strong class.
Just take the encounter that gives temp hp for your group (sry I dont know the name, was one of the reworked encounters. It was "Shield" and "Prisma" in ACT) it had a pretty strong group protection effect during our Svardborg run. One of our tank pallys was rank 1 in healing with over 50! million of healing (in 7.53min). This was all temp HP that protected us and it was simply amazing. Together with the new bubble and BO a pala in my group still let me feel safer than a GF that tries to protect our group.
Superior? Just consider this :Conqueror GF's are on the dps level of SW's and TR's, superior to OP's, even if the GF is a protector/tatician and looses 50% of it's damage, it doesn't have inspiring leader or ap gain for allies but what you can take from that it's 35% damage reduction to that add the extra DR from KV (wich will be needed because only around 250k hp the investment on defence get's more profitable over HP), with boons and shieldmaster we'll probably see that GF using guarded assault to proc crushing pin and combat superiority or use enhanced mark to combine crushing pin with mark aditional damage depending on the situation.
What else can this GF do? Elemental air cultist, rust monster as active bonus pets, Dancing shield for the 20% aditional damage on target and help get the 80% DR, sparing artifacts to HP, power, recovery and LS, T. Bronzehood, it's not just a good party buff but also less damage for the GF; Now do the same for the paladin, you'll have both imortal (or nearlly) beasts but the GF will protect you much better, damage buffs are not restrict to the 40' radius of auras(if the paladin has dominant presence), giving more movement liberty, damage buffs will be better (exepting only single target fights if there is a C.A. source and the power shared from the OP is decent, wich is a feat completly overpowered with it's "brother" share the light and should be capped), there is no reason to get a OP over a GF, and this is the correct comparisson, not the comparisson to conquerors GF's that dont even have daunting challenge.
Im sitting reading half these post... honest to god Do any of you guys know anything about OP how auras work how damage is base you guys need to try it and stop complaining. LET ME EXPLAIN i have no problem tanking without ob HAMSTER i dont even need to use it because well im a buff op WHAT that means i can buff the party % damage higher then a GF they nerfing the people who have the same builds who relay on being almost god like. Well i hate to tell u guys there are other builds
Let me get start frist people who are base on op hp build HAte to tell u this but Aura of Courage is a buff but it does not go base on the damage of the op right now it base damage of that player hp means I tested it with a 2ed op one of us a hp build and me the buffer build the damage was the same for who ever equip the aura meaning if my courage is doing 2000 that best on my hp i tried it on gwf and what not now it does stack up with damage boost! so it can do a bit more damage.
Lets keep going an op can do ALOT of damage i can out dps people under 3k right now and im 3.2k op tank reason is because im a buffer build what that means is i share damage
NEXT the power the op gets to share the power is not base on buffs is base on the base meaning say if u have 20k power right 25% of that is well 5k. THAT it that all u get 5k if the op buffs to 40k power the buff is still 5k once again tested that why i dont use bonding stone on my op its not a base now the base can change dont get me wrong if u can get 100k power well no one got the aura yes they can get it but 90% of the time the buffs kick off in battle not before
now for orcus and fbi dungeon its not hard lol to keep your partys alive with this new nerf still like i said 90% of u guys built the same way and there. Its simple cleansen touch works and you can get your self over 500k hp highest temp hp i have ever had was 2.4m temp hp at orcus
So again there a lot of things u guys have to learn and need to stop crying on this about the nerf when it is needed if u have any question about what is what and how or wish to try to see how it all works your welcome to pm me in the game jimmy77 is my tank
I luv how GF ppl are saying this nerf is a good thing and how the dev that created the thread has said absolutely nothing... typical oh and with your 7 posts I will be sure to ask you for advice jimmy77 Lol
Everything I am going to write is from a group-member-perspective. I dont play a paladin. I can just tell you the things I experienced in the time I did runs with paladin tanks on the preview.
I did some runs on the preview with paladins (Svardborg(Master) + FBI) and I think the paladin is in a pretty good state now. The devs just pushed the class down from its golden throne. Paladins are finally no longer gods. It is now a class that needs some brain and skill to be played. Aura of Courage makes up to 25% of the total damage of some classes, especially CWs can reach this amount. We are not talking about +X% effictivness. We are talking about X% of their total damage which is insanely much. I also think that Aura of Courage alone is a stronger dmg push than all gf buffs together. I dont see a point in buffing paladins in buffs that they can apply on the group.
Now the class as a tank. The class is still a very strong tank if the player know how to play his class. We didnt have any problems in FBI, neither in Svardborg. The bubble and BO arent op anymore. I think they are still strong abilitys if you know how to use it. The group needs to play with brain and need to dodge attacks now which is a good thing in my opinion. The balance changes made the content more interesting and more fun because the paladin cant make the whole group immortal any longer. We even needed to use the glyph mechanic in Svardborg(Master). Before the paladin changes we could simply skip it because of bubble + BO. Same with Call of Winter in FBI, we needed to hide behind the ice because a pala cant survive it anymore. People are forced now to use the machanics in the dungeons which is a good thing.
"down from its golden throne" ? Right. Somewhat self-righteous and condescending but anyway thanks for your opinion. Note the use of the word 'opinion' because that's what it is. Its by no means a fact
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The devs may call this thread a feedback thread but in the end it is just a bagging for buffs. It will always stay the same. People tell their experience that they got on the preview server and the "buff fraction" are destroying these opinions and facts. Most of the people in this thread didnt even test the stuff in dungeons. They are calling the class weak and not tanky but this isnt the case. People who just refer to the patchnotes dont know the full impact of the changes in combat. You will just know them if you try out the content with the changes. No offense to anyone here but I just think this thread isnt an objectiv way of providing feedback. People are begging for buffs that arent necessary just because they want to play the strongest class again. Same with the changes. I dont even want to know how many of you really did some runs on the preview.
Nero - Palacetamol - Essence of Aggression
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
edited November 2016
A curious thing that I noticed all this time comparing my paladin to others is that everyone is pushing power+recovery just because divine protector and BO. And favoring defense instead of HP.
I allways used power + crit + recovery, with 55% crit base (before bonding effect), because my main tanking tool was Templar's Wrath temp HP, I usually get 600k-1M temp hp when some buffs are applied or when I hit 4-5 enemies. I only used BO in orcus and some phases of FBI. Ok I have a high geared paladin and some of my suggestions are to help low geared players (see below).
I think paladins need to do some dmg to sustain the agro because we dont have hard taunts like the GF mark. New BO will help with this, and giving time to apply debuffs and get enough HP.
Also I favored HP instead defense, with 55% only base defense, because HP helps with aura of courage and other things and now will be more important due to BO change. Some people is running with 80% base defense and negation!! WTF! if you are using negation, 50-60% base def is enough.
People need to adapt, try new things (not only test the changes with the same build) and then tell the feedback. I main a CW and with every change there is a storm because people dont know other thing that "give me a build". Now that build doenst work the same way so lot of people is complaining.
I am not saying everything is Ok with this changes. We still have lots of powers, feats and features that are totally useless and they should be revised in the future. My suggestions for this changes are:
Binging Oath: Remove the dmg back. I dont think this dmg makes sense now. Or up the shield to 150%-200% hp Vow of Enmity: Make this power AoE hard taunt (up to 8). Remove the toogle. Put a 10 sec duration Circle of power: Dmg must be shared to allies, but not 30%, 15% should be ok because we are sharing also 25% dmg resist Divine protector: Base duration up from 6s to 8s. Casting time should be halved Sanctuary: Protector should get 30% dmg resist in other layer and Devotion should get a powerful healing effect scaled with power. Both still get control immunity.
Bottom line: a Paladin tank needs a reliable way to withstand Orcus at the very least provided the party is adequate and the Paladin is well built and meeting the IL requirements of the dungeon. If we dont have that come next mod then all the talk here might as well be dust in the wind. The people who call this thread and our opinions "begging for buffs" ( its begging btw @hastati96, bagging is something else) need to step back and read again. All Im saying is that a tank needs to be able to tank. Simple enough?
Also @hastati96 as you're proud enough to advertise your guild affiliations in your sig do keep the pve and pvp suggestions separate. Ive met plenty of pvp wizards who would have loved to be able to kill my pally instead of just pushing him away and next mod you might actually have a chance. However what we are discussing here is the effectiveness of the Paladin tank in PVE come next mod and I for one dont want to see my main turned into wet tissue paper thank you.
PS: At this point im just gonna shut up about this mess and observe.
Post edited by emilemo on
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Bottom line: a Paladin tank needs a reliable way to withstand Orcus at the very least provided the party is adequate and the Paladin is well built and meeting the IL requirements of the dungeon.
Meeting the requeriments to enter the dungeon doesnt mean meeting the requeriments to tank the last boss. If you enter old CN or VT with a team just meeting the requeriments your HAMSTER would hurt you for a week. The problem is that old times you could farm some gear, and even the first and second boss of CN could give you something to improve your char. Now your char only improves when you spend $$ or win the lotto.
And here we go again, with the real problem in this game. The rewards and character progression
I want to see a OPP solo tank Orcus without Binding Oath. No cleric, no HR, no companion pulling your threat, no third-party healing or DR allowed, etc. Let's see those amazing temp HPs!
I want to see a OPP solo tank Orcus without Binding Oath. No cleric, no HR, no companion pulling your threat, no third-party healing or DR allowed, etc. Let's see those amazing temp HPs!
Ready? GO!
exactly so - I'd especially like to see it be done by anyone under 3.5k. BO is was the ONLY reliable skill for tanking Orcus.
I'd also suggest the devs pally tester create a standard 3k pally with rank 9's, 70% DR & 140k HP and actually try tackling Orcus without slotting BO (or just use the new 'improved' version - lol). I'd love to see how many hits their tester can take before he's dead - my guess is 5. Try putting up that new improved Sanctuary too - see how those hits bite through the shield - assuming it doesn't bug out and he's creeping around in shield stance without the actual shield activating.
I'd also suggest the devs monitor zone & LFG chat in PE on PC and XB to see what I mean about GF bias.
Lets be clear, we are not talking about what's possible at BiS, we are talking about the majority of the player base with average gear and average guild boons (say GH10).
* As a side note, I've just started saving up for a new GF.
** I've also noted that most players against improvements don't actually run ANY form of tank. Class bias?
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Bottom line: a Paladin tank needs a reliable way to withstand Orcus at the very least provided the party is adequate and the Paladin is well built and meeting the IL requirements of the dungeon.
Also @hastati96 as you're proud enough to advertise your guild affiliations in your sig do keep the pve and pvp suggestions separate. Ive met plenty of pvp wizards who would have loved to be able to kill my pally instead of just pushing him away and next mod you might actually have a chance. However what we are discussing here is the effectiveness of the Paladin tank in PVE come next mod and I for one dont want to see my main turned into wet tissue paper thank you.
I have never said just one word about PvP. I am an only PvE player. Everything I said meant to PvE changes
A paladin does very fine with a dc in combination. A tank should always need a healer otherwise heal classes would be useless.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
I want to see a OPP solo tank Orcus without Binding Oath. No cleric, no HR, no companion pulling your threat, no third-party healing or DR allowed, etc. Let's see those amazing temp HPs!
Ready? GO!
And why you want to see that, unrealistic scenario? is like "I want to see that GWFs do FBI with no tank, no healing no nothing blablabla GWFs are underpowered" hell is not so hard to make commens with a bit of sense.
I want to see a OPP solo tank Orcus without Binding Oath. No cleric, no HR, no companion pulling your threat, no third-party healing or DR allowed, etc. Let's see those amazing temp HPs!
Ready? GO!
And why you want to see that, unrealistic scenario? is like "I want to see that GWFs do FBI with no tank, no healing no nothing blablabla GWFs are underpowered" hell is not so hard to make commens with a bit of sense.
I totally agree. Why should someone be able to solo the content? The content is build for a group of 5 which means a class isnt weak or uselss just because they cant solo content. It is the same with the tanks. The palas arent weak just because they arent able to solo tank orcus now. Like I said some post above. A tank should always NEED a healer on its side.
Bottom line: a Paladin tank needs a reliable way to withstand Orcus at the very least provided the party is adequate and the Paladin is well built and meeting the IL requirements of the dungeon.
Also @hastati96 as you're proud enough to advertise your guild affiliations in your sig do keep the pve and pvp suggestions separate. Ive met plenty of pvp wizards who would have loved to be able to kill my pally instead of just pushing him away and next mod you might actually have a chance. However what we are discussing here is the effectiveness of the Paladin tank in PVE come next mod and I for one dont want to see my main turned into wet tissue paper thank you.
I have never said just one word about PvP. I am an only PvE player. Everything I said meant to PvE changes
A paladin does very fine with a dc in combination. A tank should always need a healer otherwise heal classes would be useless.
You called the Paladin and I quote "the strongest class" and you said we, its players are simply begging for buffs because we want to play the strongest class (lol) again (again?!! x2 lol). Strongest in what regard? Damage wise? Tanking wise? Buffing wise?
You see, when a non specific class player speaks in a class specific feedback thread he usually does one thing - he tries to undermine the class for whatever reason. Usually the reason is pvp. You claim the pally is not only fine with the changes but it was actually "strongest" at some vague field that we, the actual paladin players have yet to discover. The reality is this, the pally came out and got nerf after nerf. BO was the one thing, the one unique ability that allowed paladins to tank. BO is/was for Paladins what is the Block for the GFs. Without BO Paladins are kings of tanking ONLY trash mobs. Any self respecting boss starting with Orcus will destroy a Paladin without BO. And for the last time forget about the bis level. Any class needs to perform its designated role at a medium level of power (IL). The only people who can call the pally "strongest" or say the changes are fine are people who want to kill paladins in pvp easier. Period.
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I did some runs on the preview with paladins (Svardborg(Master) + FBI) and I think the paladin is in a pretty good state now. The devs just pushed the class down from its golden throne. Paladins are finally no longer gods. It is now a class that needs some brain and skill to be played.
Aura of Courage makes up to 25% of the total damage of some classes, especially CWs can reach this amount. We are not talking about +X% effictivness. We are talking about X% of their total damage which is insanely much. I also think that Aura of Courage alone is a stronger dmg push than all gf buffs together. I dont see a point in buffing paladins in buffs that they can apply on the group.
Now the class as a tank. The class is still a very strong tank if the player know how to play his class. We didnt have any problems in FBI, neither in Svardborg. The bubble and BO arent op anymore. I think they are still strong abilitys if you know how to use it. The group needs to play with brain and need to dodge attacks now which is a good thing in my opinion. The balance changes made the content more interesting and more fun because the paladin cant make the whole group immortal any longer.
We even needed to use the glyph mechanic in Svardborg(Master). Before the paladin changes we could simply skip it because of bubble + BO. Same with Call of Winter in FBI, we needed to hide behind the ice because a pala cant survive it anymore. People are forced now to use the machanics in the dungeons which is a good thing.
In end game OP is invulnerable by skipping ICDs though Justice Divine calls and casting BO one after another ,staying immortal for ever.
This is waht devs see ,this is why they rework BO and DP time after time:At high end gear, simply OP class trivialize the content by the combination BO/templar and DivP.
You compare KV with Divine protector:
As right was said it is like comparing oranges with apples:
GF can be killed by kv while you ,simply cant; GF solo tanking FBI is rare and demands expensive gear and setup while 3,4+ OPs roll through it.GF has to face enemy while blocking while OP needs not,BO takes care of that.
You have an ability that makes you practically immortal for 6 secs every 8 secs.Binding oath.On top of that you have a capstone that skips ICDs.Justice one.
Three divine calls and a 60 sec ICD of Circle is pulverized in 4 secs.Don't say to me this is not possible cause i can do it every time .
I am not an enemy : Heal OP is my second char and sometimes it was considered my first.
But the state of the OP community is not good:I went into the Citadel today and i saw a lot of times people saying OP is slow:
One of the not slow classes.
Swift Flash and Radiant Champion ring a bell??Just an example .
generally:
A well specced ,geared OP offers to a party:
Radiant Champion:25% movement speed,5% ICD reduction
To my side: 15% movement speed
Aura of courage: 10% to 25% party DPS increase ,depending on class
Bane : +30% damage -30% damage taken
Aura of Wisdom: -30% ICDs
Shield of faith/Divine protector dailies=enough said
All these while Prot Ops gain power for free through their oath:This is the Bulwark effect that was removed of GFs armor set in mod 1 .Well you have it permanent for free.
------------------
OPs got two reworks up to now:I was the only one in first and among two in second that suggested RA to have its knock effect removed.
None of you said anything you all had focus on Bubble mode.It was sad.Sad.
The number of high IL Prot OPs that run away /kite or circling around Demo ,dragons or orcus is large.
The vast majority of Prot OPs never went beyond the bubble mode way of thinking.It is not your fault however I don't blame you.OP class should never be released in Mod6.But in mod7 at least.
As i posted OP has a lot of flaws ,more damage is urgently needed for all paths.
---------------------
Ask for well needed buffs:
An increase to the heroic feat dominating Presense would solve OP utility problems instantly.
now it is 10 feet more radius to auras.
If that was changed to 4/8/12/16/20 ,you would be more reliant buffers.
This is fine, except youre not taking into consideration that the OP tanking abilities increase the base DR of the Paladin versus the GF which has a separate layer of DR with its shield. So most of these abilities are nearly useless since most paladins are running around with max DR. Take a look below:
"d4rkh0rs3 said:
Compare the following and feel free to expand on either class:
GF party benefits:
1) 50% damage reduction from KV
2) 30-35% damage buff from ITF+Inspiring Leader Tactitian Feat
3) 50% additive movement speed
4) AP generation from Martial Mastery Tactitian capstone
5) +10% damage debuff from Crushing Pin
6) edit: Ability to mark targets at-will, hard taunt and combat advantage. @beckylunatic
7) Other beneficial but less significant small damage/damage mitigation buffs.
GF tanking:
1) 80% shield layer DR
2) Fighter's Recovery
3) Steel Defense
4) edit: Threat generation
5) Other less significant factors
---
OP party benefits:
1) Divine Protector
2) Circle of Power
3) Aura of ________
4) Bane
5) Shield of Faith (base DR)
OP tanking:
1) Sanctuary (base DR)
2) Absolution (base DR)
3) Binding Oath
4) Templar's Wrath
Right now, the clear edge goes to the GF in both tanking and party benefit categories."
But sure, plz make knockbacks die in a fire.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
25% damage for CW's sure because they tick low damage dots from the likes of Icy Terrain & Conduit of Ice that are 'upgraded' by adding a set amount of damage based on the pallys HP - the same set damage on the likes of a GWF is a whole lot less than 25%. Can I also remind you that this "insanely much" amount is the same amount ALL dps players get from ITF? Basically, the bigger the hits from the attacker, the smaller the % Courage contributes - unlike the straight 25% on everything from the GF.
Let me be clear and repeat something I've said on many occasions. The 'Bubble' was always a mistake - it should never have existed. I'm onside with the devs on the point that immortality trivialises content, makes runs boring and the game pointless.
What I DO want is the Paladin to have equal group protection, buff and debuff capabilities - currently the only thing a pally offers that beats an equal IL GF is Divine Protector and the ability to soak up even EF damage via BO. Get rid of DP - rewrite that power slot into something completely different. BO however is mainly used by geared pallies for bosses ONLY and as such the new 'shield' effect has to be scaled with that in mind.
Personally I find even this discussion depressing, defending the obvious from the oblivious.
DPS classes just need to ask themselves one thing : excluding the pre-nerf FBI, if you were forming a group and had the choice to bring along either an unknown pally or guardian fighter of equal IL and stats, which would you choose.
Anyone who's stood in PE to form a premade for pretty much anything knows how most people who choose.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
If I hit for 1,000 and Aura of Courage procs for 1,000, Aura of Courage is 50% of my overall damage (1,000 / 2,000).
If I hit for 1,000,000 and Aura of Courage procs for 1,000, Aura of Courage is ~0.1% of my overall damage (1,000 / 1,001,000).
I have not seen any Mod 10+ analysis comparing the overall outgoing damage benefit between GF's ITF and OP's Aura of Courage, but my bet is, in the majority of cases, ITF wins. You may argue against this if you run with 4 Fury SWs, though, who knows.
This is why I recommended adjusting Bane to cause a 10% damage debuff per stack (3 max) to all enemies within 50ft. This would naturally remove the ability to cast it on friendlies or unwanted trash adds.
Tl;dr: In the majority of cases, ITF > Aura of Courage until proven otherwise.
Like @beckylunatic said, countless people have complained about Rentless Avenger, Sunburst, and CW knockback abilities.
I dont get why almost everyone in this thread is complaining about the nerfs and the class is not good enough anymore. The paladin has been an totally overpowered tank since it was released and finally it has been turned down to a normal, just a strong class.
Just take the encounter that gives temp hp for your group (sry I dont know the name, was one of the reworked encounters. It was "Shield" and "Prisma" in ACT) it had a pretty strong group protection effect during our Svardborg run. One of our tank pallys was rank 1 in healing with over 50! million of healing (in 7.53min). This was all temp HP that protected us and it was simply amazing. Together with the new bubble and BO a pala in my group still let me feel safer than a GF that tries to protect our group.
The amount of times I've pug q'd into a dungeon and someone has said something to the effect of "oh, a paladin..."
Last week I went into a CN where there was no healer, a 2.4k GF, 3 dps and my 3.2k pally. The dps'ers were actually DEBATING which of the two tanks to kick!
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
In a class balance pre period release ,it is of no importance to what people think,except if the state it in the appropriate threads-feedback ones and support it with arguments.Nothing is obvious except if stated .
Divine touch seems obvious that is worthless cause it hits 1/3 of an Op att will,yet I don't recall often people asking for a change.
Just an example
But on another note, if you want to know if these changes are viable, why dont we have a mid-ilvl pally do a CN run in the preview server and see if he can successfully tank Orcus? We'll see how that goes... (°¿°)
What else can this GF do? Elemental air cultist, rust monster as active bonus pets, Dancing shield for the 20% aditional damage on target and help get the 80% DR, sparing artifacts to HP, power, recovery and LS, T. Bronzehood, it's not just a good party buff but also less damage for the GF; Now do the same for the paladin, you'll have both imortal (or nearlly) beasts but the GF will protect you much better, damage buffs are not restrict to the 40' radius of auras(if the paladin has dominant presence), giving more movement liberty, damage buffs will be better (exepting only single target fights if there is a C.A. source and the power shared from the OP is decent, wich is a feat completly overpowered with it's "brother" share the light and should be capped), there is no reason to get a OP over a GF, and this is the correct comparisson, not the comparisson to conquerors GF's that dont even have daunting challenge.
honest to god Do any of you guys know anything about OP how auras work how damage is base you guys need to try it and stop complaining.
LET ME EXPLAIN i have no problem tanking without ob HAMSTER i dont even need to use it because well im a buff op
WHAT that means i can buff the party % damage higher then a GF they nerfing the people who have the same builds who relay on being almost god like. Well i hate to tell u guys there are other builds
Let me get start frist people who are base on op hp build HAte to tell u this but Aura of Courage is a buff but it does not go base on the damage of the op right now it base damage of that player hp means I tested it with a 2ed op one of us a hp build and me the buffer build
the damage was the same for who ever equip the aura meaning if my courage is doing 2000 that best on my hp i tried it on gwf and what not now it does stack up with damage boost! so it can do a bit more damage.
Lets keep going an op can do ALOT of damage i can out dps people under 3k right now and im 3.2k op tank reason is because im a buffer build what that means is i share damage
NEXT the power the op gets to share the power is not base on buffs is base on the base meaning
say if u have 20k power right 25% of that is well 5k. THAT it that all u get 5k if the op buffs to 40k power the buff is still 5k
once again tested that why i dont use bonding stone on my op its not a base now the base can change dont get me wrong
if u can get 100k power well no one got the aura yes they can get it but 90% of the time the buffs kick off in battle not before
now for orcus and fbi dungeon its not hard lol to keep your partys alive with this new nerf still like i said 90% of u guys built the same way and there. Its simple cleansen touch works and you can get your self over 500k hp highest temp hp i have ever had was 2.4m temp hp at orcus
So again there a lot of things u guys have to learn and need to stop crying on this about the nerf when it is needed
if u have any question about what is what and how or wish to try to see how it all works your welcome to pm me in the game
jimmy77 is my tank
Aim True, Fight on, And protect those in need
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
No offense to anyone here but I just think this thread isnt an objectiv way of providing feedback. People are begging for buffs that arent necessary just because they want to play the strongest class again. Same with the changes. I dont even want to know how many of you really did some runs on the preview.
I allways used power + crit + recovery, with 55% crit base (before bonding effect), because my main tanking tool was Templar's Wrath temp HP, I usually get 600k-1M temp hp when some buffs are applied or when I hit 4-5 enemies. I only used BO in orcus and some phases of FBI. Ok I have a high geared paladin and some of my suggestions are to help low geared players (see below).
I think paladins need to do some dmg to sustain the agro because we dont have hard taunts like the GF mark. New BO will help with this, and giving time to apply debuffs and get enough HP.
Also I favored HP instead defense, with 55% only base defense, because HP helps with aura of courage and other things and now will be more important due to BO change. Some people is running with 80% base defense and negation!! WTF! if you are using negation, 50-60% base def is enough.
People need to adapt, try new things (not only test the changes with the same build) and then tell the feedback. I main a CW and with every change there is a storm because people dont know other thing that "give me a build". Now that build doenst work the same way so lot of people is complaining.
I am not saying everything is Ok with this changes. We still have lots of powers, feats and features that are totally useless and they should be revised in the future. My suggestions for this changes are:
Binging Oath: Remove the dmg back. I dont think this dmg makes sense now. Or up the shield to 150%-200% hp
Vow of Enmity: Make this power AoE hard taunt (up to 8). Remove the toogle. Put a 10 sec duration
Circle of power: Dmg must be shared to allies, but not 30%, 15% should be ok because we are sharing also 25% dmg resist
Divine protector: Base duration up from 6s to 8s. Casting time should be halved
Sanctuary: Protector should get 30% dmg resist in other layer and Devotion should get a powerful healing effect scaled with power. Both still get control immunity.
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Also @hastati96 as you're proud enough to advertise your guild affiliations in your sig do keep the pve and pvp suggestions separate. Ive met plenty of pvp wizards who would have loved to be able to kill my pally instead of just pushing him away and next mod you might actually have a chance. However what we are discussing here is the effectiveness of the Paladin tank in PVE come next mod and I for one dont want to see my main turned into wet tissue paper thank you.
PS: At this point im just gonna shut up about this mess and observe.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
And here we go again, with the real problem in this game. The rewards and character progression
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Ready? GO!
iswas the ONLY reliable skill for tanking Orcus.I'd also suggest the devs pally tester create a standard 3k pally with rank 9's, 70% DR & 140k HP and actually try tackling Orcus without slotting BO (or just use the new 'improved' version - lol). I'd love to see how many hits their tester can take before he's dead - my guess is 5. Try putting up that new improved Sanctuary too - see how those hits bite through the shield - assuming it doesn't bug out and he's creeping around in shield stance without the actual shield activating.
I'd also suggest the devs monitor zone & LFG chat in PE on PC and XB to see what I mean about GF bias.
Lets be clear, we are not talking about what's possible at BiS, we are talking about the majority of the player base with average gear and average guild boons (say GH10).
* As a side note, I've just started saving up for a new GF.
** I've also noted that most players against improvements don't actually run ANY form of tank. Class bias?
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
A paladin does very fine with a dc in combination. A tank should always need a healer otherwise heal classes would be useless.
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You called the Paladin and I quote "the strongest class" and you said we, its players are simply begging for buffs because we want to play the strongest class (lol) again (again?!! x2 lol). Strongest in what regard? Damage wise? Tanking wise? Buffing wise?
You see, when a non specific class player speaks in a class specific feedback thread he usually does one thing - he tries to undermine the class for whatever reason. Usually the reason is pvp. You claim the pally is not only fine with the changes but it was actually "strongest" at some vague field that we, the actual paladin players have yet to discover. The reality is this, the pally came out and got nerf after nerf. BO was the one thing, the one unique ability that allowed paladins to tank. BO is/was for Paladins what is the Block for the GFs. Without BO Paladins are kings of tanking ONLY trash mobs. Any self respecting boss starting with Orcus will destroy a Paladin without BO. And for the last time forget about the bis level. Any class needs to perform its designated role at a medium level of power (IL). The only people who can call the pally "strongest" or say the changes are fine are people who want to kill paladins in pvp easier. Period.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.