Okay first if u guys seen my name in shout then you. My build has a higher % then any GF and this is a fact that why party's love me those who say % goes down with power no lol its 400 power =1% it does not get weaker as it goes gf gives 30% damage increase okay 400x30=12,000 power . This is the basic rule of power that what some people don't understand if u have 40k power your doing 100% more damage means your powers does 100% more damage from there base. So if a op can get 50k power your doing a buff just like into the fray now giving out 12500 power that = to 31% is it posable to get that power yes! that much power your healing will be higher temp hp will be higher just put azures on your def and omg your dr is high. Im only a 3.3k op and a lot of people started to copy my build. The reason why it works! Like i said if u need aura of truth in battle well simply u doing something wrong. Orcus only hits me without a dc 70k! that it 70k because of the damage i take has be reduced. My dr is only 75% and like i said i have np tanking orcus. There was a gf who failed tanking it and guildie called me on the frist try i was able to do it. I dont need bubble protection or any of that to protect my allys. Again you guys use bonding here a FACT bonding does not do much for you. By increasing my power my prism kicks in everytime i uses a daily. And this heals my party members. OB is nice sure it does need some fixing but to be honest with you guys the fact is every time i read this forum over and over again most of u guys are raging about not doing it well I going to say this.
Tanking has nothing to do protecting the party FYI if they stand in the red THEY deserve to die. Because before even gf with kv had the same problem because of careless dps. Now again i dont use bubble because i have no need to 90% of the partys i go with perfer me over any gf fyi because well my buffs are higher
and i can show u why when u can do over a mil jug then we talk untill then i got to say this learn to play the class stop complaining if u wanna go gf go gf. There are a lot of real tanks out there that know how to do there job and i showed that the next time i run cn im going to record it to show u guys what im talkn about.
and you will see op buffs are nuts and if they give us more godly sht well ya honestly they need to nerf us one more time to be balance with the gf
Actually it 399.795 to 1 not 400 to 1 and this only actually boosts dps 1% if compare to 0 power. DPS don't have 0 power, high gs dps have like 60k power so then ((1+72500/39979.5)/(1+60000/39979.5)-1)*100=12.5025630254% dmg boost, at least that how I told it work.
You need recheck your numbers when compare. Also in fight 10% of OP hp is power when you hit so stacking hp = more team dmg from party buff.
@darknessdestory7 70k damage from Orcus when you have 75% DR is about right. Mine is currently around the same and that's about how much damage I receive. Of course, you aren't mentioning that he can do this damage several times within a couple of seconds. Which platform do you play on btw?
Also, if the OP has 50k power and so providing 12.5k power to a dps (who also has power at 50k), that's an increase in their DPS output of around 12.22% using thefabricant's calculation of "1+(Power/40000)" then working out the % increase between the two stats, so not far off from Torg's calculation and not the 31% you stated.
Quote from thefabricant: What is also important to note is that the damage bonus from power diminishes in effectiveness the more power you have. In other words, to calculate how much investing 1 point in power will boost your DpS, you need to look at (1+new damage bonus)/(1+old damage bonus) to work out how much power is actually boosting your DpS by.
If a GF gives a DPS boost of 30% DAMAGE to someone who has 50k power that works out to around a 32k boost to their power if stated in those terms. As such a GF in this situation provides around x2.5 as much DPS boost. A pally would need to get their power to 128k just to equal the boost from ITF.
There's also the perverse situation where a Pally's boost is less on a geared player than it is on one with lower stats whilst a GF does the reverse.
@thefabricant would you be able to check my calculation please?
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Far as I know the fabricant left the game. That should tell you something.
Also reportedly the wand crush and sweep attack from Orcus hit for 800k in melee range. With my personal DR I get hit for ~160 000 from those (not including debuff from Bane). If SoF is on that dmg turns into 112 000 and if I have BO on that damage turns into 56k. Now that would be a perfect scenario where all pally defenses are stacked. The perfect scenario however is not the norm. It would be the norm IF Sanctuary gave 60% DR layer but we know well enough thats not the case. Achieving such damage reduction requires perma daily uptime. Is this fair compared to just raising up a stamina powered block? Heck no imo. Anyway, better geared paladins can make the above work but then you have to consider dear, ol' Orcus hits for that much repeatedly! So you miss a beat once and you die.
Yes a Paladin can tank Orcus especially if he has rank 12 Bonding Runestones equipped on his pet and the DC is good but I still think the ProtOP needs additional improvements to bring it in line with the GF.
Edited to add the most important requirement Paladins need to meet in order to tank harder content.
Post edited by emilemo on
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Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Me too, the thing is we are build as buffers, party wide protectors and damage absorbers. We can do all 3 but not as well as a GF of equal IL. That's why people choose them over us - understandably.
A GF can provide 65% party wide continuous damage reduction, 30% dps buff and significant AP gain just with encounters and feats, plus a target debuff via marking. All at the same time.
Our party wide damage reduction is based on Dailies (now reduced to a few seconds) and a choice between an offensive and defensive passive. The overall design is based around keeping ourselves alive (not everyone else) via fast temp health generation and encounter cooldowns.
We need to be able to run all 3 abilities continuously and simultaneously to match the GF and with our current configuration that's not possible.
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Why is they so much anger from pally players and not a single response from the devs?
We're at 7 pages now and that's a lot considering the actual percentage of pally players vs. the rest of the game.
Please devs see our cry and give us your thoughts on our opinions or something... total silence is very very very upsetting when ploughing hours upon hours into a could be dead class.
I feel the same hate towards these changes and the silence vs. the key changes and that was overturned due to the overwhelming support against it and #keygate
Why is they so much anger from pally players and not a single response from the devs?
We're at 7 pages now and that's a lot considering the actual percentage of pally players vs. the rest of the game.
Please devs see our cry and give us your thoughts on our opinions or something... total silence is very very very upsetting when ploughing hours upon hours into a could be dead class.
I feel the same hate towards these changes and the silence vs. the key changes and that was overturned due to the overwhelming support against it and #keygate
Sad times.
Nothing to worry about my fellow paper tank. All you need is a legendary pet (Yeti preferably as it can do all the tanking for you) with 3 rank12 Bonding Runestones and whatever the companion bis gear is. Equipped as such you will be able to offset any nerf the devs send the Paladin way. I mean who cares about BO losing immunity when with 3 rank12 Bondings I can reach 500 000 temp HP on average. Heck I dont even have to slot BO...
Id love if all this was just sarcasm, sadly though its the reality.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
i dont use bonding stones and 1+(Power/40000) is wrong fyi lol 400 power = 1% they changed it a long time ago read As a soft rule, 400 Points in any stat is worth 1% (…)" — gentlemancrush this does not cap and does not decrease. Since Module 6: Elemental Evil, every 400 points of Power provides 1% damage and healing increase. I tanked it many times without it because of how fast my partys can drop orcus to get that much. So are what you guys saying and i spent 2 weeks testing is wrong? and there more if u have 40k power that 100% check it lower your power your damage lowers every 400 points u can test this with rad and u see it drop 2% if u using rank 12s. I hate to keep telling u guys this bonding sucks simple as that if you are using bonding as a tank your not giving aura gifts off. Now let me explain there more to aura gifts and im so sick of people calling me wrong. Its been like this sence we turned 70 it does not go down it does not change does nothing there not heavy forumally for the damage.. again if u bring up some power to 40k it will show 100%.... AT 70 test it im so sick of people telling me im wrong when i tested the damage with a gwf and ran factors on it. Stop telling me im wrong if u dont know how to tank do something else because here a fact.. if a op can do a 8min cn run after update and drop orcus in less then 2 attacks then maybe just maybe ik what im doing.. JUST MAYBE... untill then dps know who im and everyone around giving bad raps for you im going to start taken screen shots and videos.
it a player is using bonding stones aura gifts go on the comp that means u get 3x more stats from it meaning u get 4x more stats from op power
40k power 25% means they get 10k power each that again is 25% that means if someone in your party is using bonding stones that 10x4 = they get 40k power off you
sure stike 3115-3749 with aura gift 5k power that that little over 10% more damage am i wrong? my base is 25k power
next test 6828-7525 with triple bonding and aura gifts that way over 100% more damage
now the final test without aura gift 4964-5504 this was with the triple bonding now lets do more math
the frist came up with a base of a 10% increase OH .. that not much
next with bonding stones a person compare to without aura is an increase of OH 100% so is this wrong this is what power is doing and tested it over and over again and they all come out the same if the base of it is 2800 and it goes up to 6800 this is a increase 242% of more damage ah so lets keep going without the aura =178% so lets see how much an increase this is 64% congz this is 25k power fyi do u see guys why the op is stronger then gf? test it that all i got to say test it stop coming on forums saying im wrong.
i dont use bonding stones and 1+(Power/40000) is wrong fyi lol 400 power = 1% they changed it a long time ago read As a soft rule, 400 Points in any stat is worth 1% (…)" — gentlemancrush
@darknessdestory7 In case you didn't realize, Power/40000 = 400:1%. This is basic maths.
this does not cap and does not decrease. Since Module 6: Elemental Evil, every 400 points of Power provides 1% damage and healing increase.
Say you have an ability that conveniently hits for 100 with 0 power.
With 4000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+4000/40000) = 110
With 40000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+40000/40000) = 200
With 60000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+60000/40000) = 250
With 100000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+100000/40000) = 350
Now, let us look at what this means:
Say you are comparing the dps boost to 0 power, well, if you compare the 100k to the base value of 0, it is indeed a dps increase of 250%:
350/100-1 = 2.5
but if you had 40k power already, well then:
350/200-1 = 0.75, which is a 75% dps increase, NOT a 60000/40000 = 150% dps increase.
You have to remember, in this situation, the person ALREADY had 40k power to start off with. So, if I use my CW as an example, my CW has ~58k power with everything up, so say you do give me 40k power, well in my case, let us use that 60k power example above:
(1+100000/40000)/(1+(60000/40000)-1 = 0.4, which is a 40% dps increase. Which is still good, but it isn't the 100% dps increase you making it out to be.
Either way, I am bad at explaining this in a way to make it accessible, @micky1p00 can probably do it better.
I hate to keep telling u guys this bonding sucks simple as that if you are using bonding as a tank your not giving aura gifts off. Now let me explain there more to aura gifts and im so sick of people calling me wrong. Its been like this sence we turned 70 it does not go down it does not change does nothing there not heavy forumally for the damage.. again if u bring up some power to 40k it will show 100%.... AT 70 test it im so sick of people telling me im wrong when i tested the damage with a gwf and ran factors on it. Stop telling me im wrong if u dont know how to tank do something else because here a fact.. if a op can do a 8min cn run after update and drop orcus in less then 2 attacks then maybe just maybe ik what im doing.. JUST MAYBE... untill then dps know who im and everyone around giving bad raps for you im going to start taken screen shots and videos.
it a player is using bonding stones aura gifts go on the comp that means u get 3x more stats from it meaning u get 4x more stats from op power
40k power 25% means they get 10k power each that again is 25% that means if someone in your party is using bonding stones that 10x4 = they get 40k power off you
Augments don't count to base power. It is easy to test this, take off all gear so you have 0 power, summon an augment that has power and look at your power. Now, put points into aura gifts. Check your power. It is the same. dismiss and resummon the augment just in case. Notice your power is still the same. Conclusion: Augment does not count to base power.
The oath of protection oath mechanic does count towards base power though, so 10% of your HP does get counted to aura gifts. Now, I did not check if it counts only the HP from your character or if it also counts other sources of HP like pets etc, but it does mean that stacking HP on your toon at the very least does increase your parties dps.
If someone wants to check if the HP from your pet counts towards the oath mechanic, they welcome to, since I am taking a break. @jaegernl?
If the HP on pets is counted by the oath mechanic, then there is an argument for using pets like the bulette pup as an augment, because it gives a lot more HP than a bonding pet which would get counted to base power. If it does not, there is absolutely 0 reason to use an augment. Even if it did count though, it is highly questionable to sacrifice the potential to use a debuff pet like a sellsword, for a minor gain in power from HP.
It's the same with power, always 400:1 but the more you have the less each 400 adds you relative to what you have.
It's not exactly an issue of diminished returns. It's in how we calculate percents and percent of what we look into.
For example, lets say you have $100. Now benevolent me, gives you another $100. Your worth just increased by 100% (and now twice what it was).
Now you have $200, and I give you another $100, now your worth increased only by 50%: notice that,
200 + (50% of 200 => 100) = 300
Now you have $300, and I give you another 100, you get an increase of only 33%, because:
300 + (33% of 300 => 100) = 400
As you can see the more you have the less in percents the same $100 worth to you. So the wealthier you are the less and less the same $100 add you, relative to your wealth.
Similar is critical severity, the more you have the less each addition is relative to what you have, but $100 is still money So you don't want to give it away, unless there is a good alternative that gives you more in terms of total damage.
And here is a modified quote about power -> dps increase: (from here)
Lets assume 50k power and you got a 40% increase in power, meaning you have now 70k power. lets see in dps increase:
(1 + 70000 / 40000) / (1 + 50000 / 40000) * 100 = 122.22 So we have 22% dps increase for starting 50k power.
For 60% power increase: 33.33% dps increase For 80% power increase: 44.44% dps increase For 100% power increase: 55.55% dps increase
I think the mistake comes from the semantics of "increase", the tooltip shows increase in %, meaning it's actually 100% + tooltip damage (this is why I have [1 + ] in the equation above) Meaning that we start at 100% damage and if you have 20k power (50% damage increase) the multiplier is actually 150% or more correctly (1 + 0.5) 40k power is 100% increase so it's 200% of the initial damage. 80k power is 200% increase so it's 300% of the initial damage.
But if we compare the gain from 80k over 40k (twice the power) we will see 300/200 * 100 = 150% -> 50% increase in damage.
Post edited by micky1p00 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
sure stike 3115-3749 with aura gift 5k power that that little over 10% more damage am i wrong? my base is 25k power
next test 6828-7525 with triple bonding and aura gifts that way over 100% more damage
now the final test without aura gift 4964-5504 this was with the triple bonding now lets do more math
the frist came up with a base of a 10% increase OH .. that not much
next with bonding stones a person compare to without aura is an increase of OH 100% so is this wrong this is what power is doing and tested it over and over again and they all come out the same if the base of it is 2800 and it goes up to 6800 this is a increase 242% of more damage ah so lets keep going without the aura =178% so lets see how much an increase this is 64% congz this is 25k power fyi do u see guys why the op is stronger then gf? test it that all i got to say test it stop coming on forums saying im wrong.
I'm not saying wrong or right, honestly I don't understand much of what is going on. But if we take 3749 over 3426 it's:
3749 / 3426 = 1.094 -> 9.4% increase.
With 25k power, you will need 24.4% increase in power = 31,110 power to have this increase in damage. (1+x/40000) / (1 + 25000/40000) = 1.094
You can verify by going to base an back up:
25k power is 62.5% increase over base. Meaning:
base * ( 1 + 0.625) = 3426
base = 2108
We want to know what increase we need to get to 3749:
2108 * ( 1 + x) = 3749
x = 0.778
Meaning 77.8% with 400:1 we get 31120 power. (acceptable rounding)
So increase of 9.4% in damage in this case equal 24.4% increase in power over existing 25k.
I do want to repeat that I don't know what you mean there, so I can be totally offtopic, you mean this, or mean something else completely. Again, not saying anything is wrong, or right. Just small clarification of how things works. Hope it helps.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited December 2016
But totally to not math topic, at least the OP I know, doing fine in end game content, and tanking better and in general doing better than a lot of other classes. CN/FBI/Svar
sure stike 3115-3749 with aura gift 5k power that that little over 10% more damage am i wrong? my base is 25k power
next test 6828-7525 with triple bonding and aura gifts that way over 100% more damage
now the final test without aura gift 4964-5504 this was with the triple bonding now lets do more math
the frist came up with a base of a 10% increase OH .. that not much
next with bonding stones a person compare to without aura is an increase of OH 100% so is this wrong this is what power is doing and tested it over and over again and they all come out the same if the base of it is 2800 and it goes up to 6800 this is a increase 242% of more damage ah so lets keep going without the aura =178% so lets see how much an increase this is 64% congz this is 25k power fyi do u see guys why the op is stronger then gf? test it that all i got to say test it stop coming on forums saying im wrong.
I'm not saying wrong or right, honestly I don't understand much of what is going on. But if we take 3749 over 3426 it's:
3749 / 3426 = 1.094 -> 9.4% increase.
With 25k power, you will need 24.4% increase in power = 31,110 power to have this increase in damage. (1+x/40000) / (1 + 25000/40000) = 1.094
You can verify by going to base an back up:
25k power is 62.5% increase over base. Meaning:
base * ( 1 + 0.625) = 3426
base = 2108
We want to know what increase we need to get to 3749:
2108 * ( 1 + x) = 3749
x = 0.778
Meaning 77.8% with 400:1 we get 31120 power. (acceptable rounding)
So increase of 9.4% in damage in this case equal 24.4% increase in power over existing 25k.
I do want to repeat that I don't know what you mean there, so I can be totally offtopic, you mean this, or mean something else completely. Again, not saying anything is wrong, or right. Just small clarification of how things works. Hope it helps.
maybe this will clear things up a bit frist test was without any effects nothing just his base damage
the 2ed test was with aura gifts and it shows that high of an increase because of the shared with companions
Then we tested bonding stones and got crazy high value but your question is just aura gift that it nothing esle
But this is what im been trying to say this whole time OP > GF buff but you clear see the effects it has you may test this your self u be like oh wow!
Sence my last post i upped my op to the ultra buffer op!!! With the new buffs and effect i can do now we ran a CN run faster then before op and gf was nerfed!!!!!
7min 42 secs 18 secs on frist boss 8 secs on 2ed and 15 secs on 3rd... GF is nice dont get me wrong but again what i tried to say before is OP aura gift rocks if u know how to use it!
sorry one more thing this was only 5000 increase to the GWF that what aura gift was doing my base was 25k power so 25% of that is 5k now honestly to god you guys keep using the old post because i can get 40k power and my damage is well 100% so your saying by everyone math after 40k power? it is nerfed because i got 40400 power and it was 101% so im kind of lost what math your trying because 400 power = 1% and aura gifts share 25% is this wrong?
oh as im reading it Im seeing u got most of it clear but i did round my power its not 25k its like 24xxx so when i buff it around 10% give or take a little. Now the bonding is where it shines... but yes with a base of 25k power the gwf had an increase of about 10% more damage now this not seem much but like i said it bonding that have the major effect on it
Here's the really funny thing you're missing: you've gone flat out to get your buffing high, and with some serious expenditure and effort you can buff a DPS by over 30%. Well fair enough.
Here's the point you're missing: My new 2.5k GF can buff for 30% by pressing one button. No expense, no effort, just one button. Now add shielding party members for 65% of incoming damage by Marking a target and keeping KV up (that's 5% better than Divine Protector). Again, done by my 2.5k GF...
Did you know that a Tact GF gains AP by TAKING damage as well as giving it? One or two big hits and it's full. This does the same for allies too. Did you also know that by choosing a certain class feature a GF becomes damage immune for several seconds after activating a Daily? In other words they can cycle between damage immunity and Fighters Recovery (self healing) constantly? This is whilst also having time to hit ITF and Enforced Threat and so maintain threat without even having to hit the target(s) often?
The only thing a GF has to work on is their DR so they don't get killed by KV and Recovery so they can maintain a perma-ITF. As my 2.5k GF is already at 66% DR you can see it's not that hard to do.
So, a tact GF can keep allies at full AP, 30% DPS buff, 65% reduced damage (not DR increase, but an actual reduced incoming damage), personal damage immunity and threat generation that is far superior.
But until you test your build side-by-side against an equal IL GF you aren't going to believe me. Bear in mind dummies are one thing, but as an OP has to choose between buffing or protecting, the real world test isn't just how you buff but also how you protect and the GF does both extremely well simultaneously, without having to max out their stats.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,259Arc User
Well if you want to protect allies you have also Circle of power and you dont take damage with it and it stacks with divine protector.
I agree that at low IL the GF gives more than a OP of the same IL but at BIS level the OP can give more to the team because is uncapped.
Also people should realize that a BIS OP can make a lot of damage because they dont have to stay with shield up. Is not a DPS ofc but everything matters.
I think you're falling into the same trap as darkness. A well specced GWF will have over 80k power (in combat) already, this means that to match a GF at 30% damage buff you'd need to get their power to 116k which means you'd need to get yours to 144k.
(1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130
That's just to break even.
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(1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130 i need to know because there something big u dont understand at all do u? OK so FAR this is a fact My op is a rounder i can dps Tank heal and buff? I can also protect my alliance reducing there damage sure u got kv and all that really nice dont get me wrong kv rocks but let me explain maybe you going to get it.
OP CAN buff there own companion okay u feeling that GF can do it do so lets do some big math again.
by understand Your math "fake math" this is yours (1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130 would be triple with bonding x3! yes op buffs companions to so the gwf gets 3 times the stats that op shares
but your saying op but up to 116k power right base of 80k power now i tested this on my gwf and went full power up to 120k power u wanna this is without buff my damage was 300% SO question is why power say 300% when it not 300% by your math can u please give me details on this?
Next you guys can say this and that but can u gf still run an 8min CN droping orcus in 4 hits???? no man. The gf rain is over as a buffer true they can protect better then op but again 2.5 op vs 2.5k gf sure gf better 4.2k op vs 4.2k gf guess WHAT he op is better GF buffs does not get strong OP does???
Now u can keep going on and on but when my op as a tank can keep up with half the dps who are over 3k well sir maybe simply maybe you need to restudy the game?? here my buffs this is why people ask me about my build
I buff triple power giving 55k power to allys i buff crit % and crit serv by 20% I buff outgoing damage by 20% i buff mobs damage by 30% I reduce damage taken by any allys by 90% fyi most of the time Orcus hits me 20-30k fyi because of my damage i reduce on top of all that i can dps and tank forcing everything to attack me way better then any gf on this game can now lets add it all up
my buff gives 55k power to allys that = 137% more we not going to add the crits add 20% more out going that 157% i then buff again 187% so the total is 187% with 20% crit rate and serv THAT crazy 187% vs any gf 70% im sorry man fact is fact when my party does not take damage wth the point in kv? HAHA this will make u think that my build man i spent over 40m ad getting this to perfection
Fyi now gf can only effect 1 group not in trail op can effect all 10 in tia there nuts becuase i cant buff everyone 187% but everyone get 185%
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
(1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130 i need to know because there something big u dont understand at all do u? OK so FAR this is a fact My op is a rounder i can dps Tank heal and buff? I can also protect my alliance reducing there damage sure u got kv and all that really nice dont get me wrong kv rocks but let me explain maybe you going to get it.
OP CAN buff there own companion okay u feeling that GF can do it do so lets do some big math again.
by understand Your math "fake math" this is yours (1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130 would be triple with bonding x3! yes op buffs companions to so the gwf gets 3 times the stats that op shares
but your saying op but up to 116k power right base of 80k power now i tested this on my gwf and went full power up to 120k power u wanna this is without buff my damage was 300% SO question is why power say 300% when it not 300% by your math can u please give me details on this?
Next you guys can say this and that but can u gf still run an 8min CN droping orcus in 4 hits???? no man. The gf rain is over as a buffer true they can protect better then op but again 2.5 op vs 2.5k gf sure gf better 4.2k op vs 4.2k gf guess WHAT he op is better GF buffs does not get strong OP does???
Now u can keep going on and on but when my op as a tank can keep up with half the dps who are over 3k well sir maybe simply maybe you need to restudy the game?? here my buffs this is why people ask me about my build
I buff triple power giving 55k power to allys i buff crit % and crit serv by 20% I buff outgoing damage by 20% i buff mobs damage by 30% I reduce damage taken by any allys by 90% fyi most of the time Orcus hits me 20-30k fyi because of my damage i reduce on top of all that i can dps and tank forcing everything to attack me way better then any gf on this game can now lets add it all up
my buff gives 55k power to allys that = 137% more we not going to add the crits add 20% more out going that 157% i then buff again 187% so the total is 187% with 20% crit rate and serv THAT crazy 187% vs any gf 70% im sorry man fact is fact when my party does not take damage wth the point in kv? HAHA this will make u think that my build man i spent over 40m ad getting this to perfection
Fyi now gf can only effect 1 group not in trail op can effect all 10 in tia there nuts becuase i cant buff everyone 187% but everyone get 185%
There really isn't any reason to argue this with you is there?
Value 1) Ok, try this, get your GWF friend to stand around with 0 power and stand out of range of aura gifts, but have his bonding pet (with just bonding stones) attack a dummy so stats are transferring and look at his tooltip ranges, it isn't how I would test things but you on ps4 so it is the best you can do, write them down.
Value 2) Now go stand next to him so that he is buffed by aura gifts as well as his pet, write them down again.
Value 3) Have him put on all his gear and stand away from you and have his bonding pet attack dummies so he has all his stats, now have him write down his tooltip ranges again.
Value 4) Go stand next to him when he has all his buffs up and have him write down his tooltip ranges again.
Divide Value 2 by Value 1 and calculate the %damage increase, ill call this exercise example 1. Divide Value 4 by 3 and calculate the %damage increase, this is example 2.
Notice the % damage increase in example 2 is lower than in example 1, this is what I am talking about.
Here is a simple exercise you can do to prove my point and instead of calling my maths, "fake maths" you can actually learn something.
He calls the math fake because he can't understand it... God help anyone who tells him the Earth is round.
To anyone tempted to believe his assertions I'll just point out one of the many, many issues on that post: "i buff mobs damage by 30%"; he's referring to the skill Bane which as we all know is single target...
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
He calls the math fake because he can't understand it... God help anyone who tells him the Earth is round.
To anyone tempted to believe his assertions I'll just point out one of the many, many issues on that post: "i buff mobs damage by 30%"; he's referring to the skill Bane which as we all know is single target...
Lol earth round, where did you hear that? Anyway i want to instruct and make sure everybody knows the truth, earth is plate shaped object mounted on a giant turtle. Thank me later.
So i tested this damage on my self to see if the bonding reflects onto my self meaning bonding goes back on me... So i did a real test not vs dummys not doing just standing around and all
If you know what u doing then sir do explain to me why the hell i was able to solo elol ecc vt and mc esot and kr for skimish do oh please because i ran act and wow it shows me a lot... Also i have people bagging me to run CN FBI and esva now im kind of lost what your saying if numbers don't lie?
400 power = 1% so if i give my self more power my % base on what this says? so honestly dude you sir dont have a clue what u talkn about because when and op and dc and take 3k and drop orcus in 6 secs... then by god I must be doing something RIGHT!
again ACT shows my damage increase with full buffs is 186% well bane is on 156% without bane... So where the hell this damage coming from then smart guy? and again if op damage so bad how come i can solo those dungeons? tested it.. So by sir do explain ps my power is only 27k!!!!???? and i need to start posting the videos and what not on this damn page so u would learn
Again you're missing the point. Nobody questioned your ability to powershare with your companion and boost your own damage significantly with bonding procs, hell my own OP at 3.5k with r11 bondings jumps from 24k to 70k power in combat but the point being questioned is the comparison to ITF and its ability to increase a dps class by 30%.
See here's the thing: Me going from 24k power to 70k power means a power increase of 191% but a dps increase of around 72%.
When I apply that to buffing a GWF at 25% powershare, if he's already at 80k power in combat it takes him to 97.5k power which is around a 22% increase but a dps increase of only 14.6%. Sure, on top of that you apply a single target debuff of up to 30% plus bonus damage from aura of courage (2-3k damage per swing) but you should also bear in mind that a GF also debuffs by Marking and has encounters that boost team DPS (e.g. Commander's Strike)
I'm guessing that your in-combat test was on easy targets because by my calculations your power only went up to 65k, against big hitting targets you should be getting to more like 90-100k with r12's and high HP. This'd imply that you're not taking a lot of damage and so not maxing bonus power from the Oath of Protection mechanic (incr power by 10% of HP).
I'm not questioning your ability to be a highly effective Paladin, just your claim that it buffs others by an amount much higher than a Guardian Fighter. The perverse thing is that the lower a DPS player is, the more you'll increase their DPS, but conversely the higher power that a dps stacks, the less % you buff them by.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
So i tested this damage on my self to see if the bonding reflects onto my self meaning bonding goes back on me... So i did a real test not vs dummys not doing just standing around and all
If you know what u doing then sir do explain to me why the hell i was able to solo elol ecc vt and mc esot and kr for skimish do oh please because i ran act and wow it shows me a lot... Also i have people bagging me to run CN FBI and esva now im kind of lost what your saying if numbers don't lie?
400 power = 1% so if i give my self more power my % base on what this says? so honestly dude you sir dont have a clue what u talkn about because when and op and dc and take 3k and drop orcus in 6 secs... then by god I must be doing something RIGHT!
again ACT shows my damage increase with full buffs is 186% well bane is on 156% without bane... So where the hell this damage coming from then smart guy? and again if op damage so bad how come i can solo those dungeons? tested it.. So by sir do explain ps my power is only 27k!!!!???? and i need to start posting the videos and what not on this damn page so u would learn
Saying, "I am right about how much of a damage boost adding extra power grants because I soloed xyz dungeon," is like saying, "the sky is blue because I drank lemonade in the morning." The 2 have nothing to do with each other. Now, how about you go and do the test I listed above and come back with actual numbers, because that test is actually relevant.
treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
Well paladins built for damage (by this i mean power + crit + apgain) can output a reasonable better damage than HP build paladins, but when it comes to buff, if you consider itf and aura gifts: itf can reach a maximum of 30%, aura gifts will have influence by equipment and power obtained from hp(the 10%), so suposing that your paladin equipment is around 30k powerfull and 200k hp, that will work out to be 50k, 25% shared would be 12500 power wich is pretty modest but remember we cant stablish a direct rellation between aura gifts and itf because there are so many other buffs in paladin and GF to make them buff diferently. The thing that really botthers me about auras is range, it wasn't enough that the "normal" auras only reach 40', aura gifts cannot pass the 30' and still has a 6 seconds requirment.......but it's power and power = damage it's not the only thing, power = healing, wich will synergise with prism/DC or other OP healing, there are lots of things to consider.
I can confirm that a high-end prot-OP built for HP / aura gifts can bring a significant boost to the team.
As has been pointed out by many articulate people, power share has naturally lower returns when your targets already have high power to begin with. Buffing someone with 20k power --> 50k power is a bigger dps increase for them than buffing someone with 50k power --> 80k power. That means that you're especially good at "shepherding" lower-geared classes.
But with enough power share (and if you are running Bane), you can bring significant utility to a high-end team. It's also worth noting that although it's hard to match the flat dps increase from ITF, providing more power also supports certain insignia bonuses (artificer's, shepherd's, possibly protector's but I haven't tested).
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You need recheck your numbers when compare. Also in fight 10% of OP hp is power when you hit so stacking hp = more team dmg from party buff.
Also, if the OP has 50k power and so providing 12.5k power to a dps (who also has power at 50k), that's an increase in their DPS output of around 12.22% using thefabricant's calculation of "1+(Power/40000)" then working out the % increase between the two stats, so not far off from Torg's calculation and not the 31% you stated.
Quote from thefabricant:
What is also important to note is that the damage bonus from power diminishes in effectiveness the more power you have. In other words, to calculate how much investing 1 point in power will boost your DpS, you need to look at (1+new damage bonus)/(1+old damage bonus) to work out how much power is actually boosting your DpS by.
If a GF gives a DPS boost of 30% DAMAGE to someone who has 50k power that works out to around a 32k boost to their power if stated in those terms. As such a GF in this situation provides around x2.5 as much DPS boost. A pally would need to get their power to 128k just to equal the boost from ITF.
There's also the perverse situation where a Pally's boost is less on a geared player than it is on one with lower stats whilst a GF does the reverse.
@thefabricant would you be able to check my calculation please?
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Also reportedly the wand crush and sweep attack from Orcus hit for 800k in melee range. With my personal DR I get hit for ~160 000 from those (not including debuff from Bane). If SoF is on that dmg turns into 112 000 and if I have BO on that damage turns into 56k. Now that would be a perfect scenario where all pally defenses are stacked. The perfect scenario however is not the norm. It would be the norm IF Sanctuary gave 60% DR layer but we know well enough thats not the case. Achieving such damage reduction requires perma daily uptime. Is this fair compared to just raising up a stamina powered block? Heck no imo. Anyway, better geared paladins can make the above work but then you have to consider dear, ol' Orcus hits for that much repeatedly! So you miss a beat once and you die.
Yes a Paladin can tank Orcus especially if he has rank 12 Bonding Runestones equipped on his pet and the DC is good but I still think the ProtOP needs additional improvements to bring it in line with the GF.
Edited to add the most important requirement Paladins need to meet in order to tank harder content.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
A GF can provide 65% party wide continuous damage reduction, 30% dps buff and significant AP gain just with encounters and feats, plus a target debuff via marking. All at the same time.
Our party wide damage reduction is based on Dailies (now reduced to a few seconds) and a choice between an offensive and defensive passive. The overall design is based around keeping ourselves alive (not everyone else) via fast temp health generation and encounter cooldowns.
We need to be able to run all 3 abilities continuously and simultaneously to match the GF and with our current configuration that's not possible.
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We're at 7 pages now and that's a lot considering the actual percentage of pally players vs. the rest of the game.
Please devs see our cry and give us your thoughts on our opinions or something... total silence is very very very upsetting when ploughing hours upon hours into a could be dead class.
I feel the same hate towards these changes and the silence vs. the key changes and that was overturned due to the overwhelming support against it and #keygate
Sad times.
4,300 Tankadin
Id love if all this was just sarcasm, sadly though its the reality.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
it a player is using bonding stones aura gifts go on the comp that means u get 3x more stats from it meaning u get 4x more stats from op power
40k power 25% means they get 10k power each that again is 25% that means if someone in your party is using bonding stones
that 10x4 = they get 40k power off you
sure stike 3115-3749 with aura gift 5k power that that little over 10% more damage am i wrong? my base is 25k power
next test 6828-7525 with triple bonding and aura gifts that way over 100% more damage
now the final test without aura gift 4964-5504 this was with the triple bonding now lets do more math
the frist came up with a base of a 10% increase OH .. that not much
next with bonding stones a person compare to without aura is an increase of OH 100%
You may have something good to say there but your writing skills are so poor I can't figure out what you mean. I wish I did.
The 1+ is because it is a multiplier.
Say you have an ability that conveniently hits for 100 with 0 power.
With 4000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+4000/40000) = 110
With 40000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+40000/40000) = 200
With 60000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+60000/40000) = 250
With 100000 power the ability would hit for:
100*(1+100000/40000) = 350
Now, let us look at what this means:
Say you are comparing the dps boost to 0 power, well, if you compare the 100k to the base value of 0, it is indeed a dps increase of 250%:
350/100-1 = 2.5
but if you had 40k power already, well then:
350/200-1 = 0.75, which is a 75% dps increase, NOT a 60000/40000 = 150% dps increase.
You have to remember, in this situation, the person ALREADY had 40k power to start off with. So, if I use my CW as an example, my CW has ~58k power with everything up, so say you do give me 40k power, well in my case, let us use that 60k power example above:
(1+100000/40000)/(1+(60000/40000)-1 = 0.4, which is a 40% dps increase. Which is still good, but it isn't the 100% dps increase you making it out to be.
Either way, I am bad at explaining this in a way to make it accessible, @micky1p00 can probably do it better. Augments don't count to base power. It is easy to test this, take off all gear so you have 0 power, summon an augment that has power and look at your power. Now, put points into aura gifts. Check your power. It is the same. dismiss and resummon the augment just in case. Notice your power is still the same. Conclusion: Augment does not count to base power.
The oath of protection oath mechanic does count towards base power though, so 10% of your HP does get counted to aura gifts. Now, I did not check if it counts only the HP from your character or if it also counts other sources of HP like pets etc, but it does mean that stacking HP on your toon at the very least does increase your parties dps.
If someone wants to check if the HP from your pet counts towards the oath mechanic, they welcome to, since I am taking a break. @jaegernl?
If the HP on pets is counted by the oath mechanic, then there is an argument for using pets like the bulette pup as an augment, because it gives a lot more HP than a bonding pet which would get counted to base power. If it does not, there is absolutely 0 reason to use an augment. Even if it did count though, it is highly questionable to sacrifice the potential to use a debuff pet like a sellsword, for a minor gain in power from HP. No, it went up 9.4%.
Don't get me wrong, OP isn't as bad as people are making it out to be, but it doesn't, "blow GF out of the water" like you are implying either.
I'm not sure what the original question is, by the answer I'll copy paste the relevant power usual things:
from:
reddit
It's the same with power, always 400:1 but the more you have the less each 400 adds you relative to what you have.
It's not exactly an issue of diminished returns. It's in how we calculate percents and percent of what we look into.
For example, lets say you have $100. Now benevolent me, gives you another $100.
Your worth just increased by 100% (and now twice what it was).
Now you have $200, and I give you another $100, now your worth increased only by 50%: notice that,
200 + (50% of 200 => 100) = 300
Now you have $300, and I give you another 100, you get an increase of only 33%, because:
300 + (33% of 300 => 100) = 400
As you can see the more you have the less in percents the same $100 worth to you. So the wealthier you are the less and less the same $100 add you, relative to your wealth.
Similar is critical severity, the more you have the less each addition is relative to what you have, but $100 is still money
And here is a modified quote about power -> dps increase:
(from here)
But if we take 3749 over 3426 it's:
3749 / 3426 = 1.094 -> 9.4% increase.With 25k power, you will need 24.4% increase in power = 31,110 power to have this increase in damage.
(1+x/40000) / (1 + 25000/40000) = 1.094You can verify by going to base an back up:
25k power is 62.5% increase over base. Meaning:
base * ( 1 + 0.625) = 3426 base = 2108We want to know what increase we need to get to 3749:
2108 * ( 1 + x) = 3749 x = 0.778Meaning 77.8% with 400:1 we get 31120 power. (acceptable rounding)
So increase of 9.4% in damage in this case equal 24.4% increase in power over existing 25k.
I do want to repeat that I don't know what you mean there, so I can be totally offtopic, you mean this, or mean something else completely. Again, not saying anything is wrong, or right. Just small clarification of how things works. Hope it helps.
the 2ed test was with aura gifts and it shows that high of an increase because of the shared with companions
Then we tested bonding stones and got crazy high value but your question is just aura gift that it nothing esle
But this is what im been trying to say this whole time OP > GF buff but you clear see the effects it has you may test this your self u be like oh wow!
Sence my last post i upped my op to the ultra buffer op!!! With the new buffs and effect i can do now we ran a CN run faster then before op and gf was nerfed!!!!!
7min 42 secs
my base was 25k power so 25% of that is 5k
now honestly to god you guys keep using the old post because i can get 40k power and my damage is well 100%
so your saying by everyone math after 40k power? it is nerfed because i got 40400 power and it was 101% so im kind of lost what math your trying because 400 power = 1% and aura gifts share 25%
is this wrong?
Here's the point you're missing: My new 2.5k GF can buff for 30% by pressing one button. No expense, no effort, just one button. Now add shielding party members for 65% of incoming damage by Marking a target and keeping KV up (that's 5% better than Divine Protector). Again, done by my 2.5k GF...
Did you know that a Tact GF gains AP by TAKING damage as well as giving it? One or two big hits and it's full. This does the same for allies too. Did you also know that by choosing a certain class feature a GF becomes damage immune for several seconds after activating a Daily? In other words they can cycle between damage immunity and Fighters Recovery (self healing) constantly? This is whilst also having time to hit ITF and Enforced Threat and so maintain threat without even having to hit the target(s) often?
The only thing a GF has to work on is their DR so they don't get killed by KV and Recovery so they can maintain a perma-ITF. As my 2.5k GF is already at 66% DR you can see it's not that hard to do.
So, a tact GF can keep allies at full AP, 30% DPS buff, 65% reduced damage (not DR increase, but an actual reduced incoming damage), personal damage immunity and threat generation that is far superior.
But until you test your build side-by-side against an equal IL GF you aren't going to believe me. Bear in mind dummies are one thing, but as an OP has to choose between buffing or protecting, the real world test isn't just how you buff but also how you protect and the GF does both extremely well simultaneously, without having to max out their stats.
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I agree that at low IL the GF gives more than a OP of the same IL but at BIS level the OP can give more to the team because is uncapped.
Also people should realize that a BIS OP can make a lot of damage because they dont have to stay with shield up. Is not a DPS ofc but everything matters.
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(1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130
That's just to break even.
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(1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130
i need to know because there something big u dont understand at all do u?
OK so FAR this is a fact My op is a rounder i can dps Tank heal and buff? I can also protect my alliance reducing there damage
sure u got kv and all that really nice dont get me wrong kv rocks but let me explain maybe you going to get it.
OP CAN buff there own companion okay u feeling that GF can do it do so lets do some big math again.
by understand Your math "fake math" this is yours
(1+116000/40000)/(1+80000/40000)*100=130 would be triple with bonding x3! yes op buffs companions to so the gwf gets 3 times the stats that op shares
but your saying op but up to 116k power right base of 80k power now i tested this
on my gwf and went full power up to 120k power u wanna this is without buff my damage was 300%
SO question is why power say 300% when it not 300% by your math can u please give me details on this?
Next you guys can say this and that but can u gf still run an 8min CN droping orcus in 4 hits???? no man.
The gf rain is over as a buffer true they can protect better then op but again 2.5 op vs 2.5k gf sure gf better
4.2k op vs 4.2k gf guess WHAT he op is better GF buffs does not get strong OP does???
Now u can keep going on and on but when my op as a tank can keep up with half the dps who are over 3k well sir maybe simply maybe you need to restudy the game??
here my buffs this is why people ask me about my build
I buff triple power giving 55k power to allys
i buff crit % and crit serv by 20%
I buff outgoing damage by 20%
i buff mobs damage by 30%
I reduce damage taken by any allys by 90%
fyi most of the time Orcus hits me 20-30k fyi because of my damage i reduce
on top of all that i can dps and tank forcing everything to attack me way better then any gf on this game can
now lets add it all up
my buff gives 55k power to allys that = 137% more
we not going to add the crits
add 20% more out going that 157%
i then buff again 187%
so the total is 187% with 20% crit rate and serv THAT crazy 187% vs any gf 70% im sorry man fact is fact when my party does not take damage wth the point in kv? HAHA this will make u think that my build man i spent over 40m ad getting this to perfection
Fyi now gf can only effect 1 group not in trail op can effect all 10 in tia there nuts becuase i cant buff everyone 187% but everyone get 185%
Value 1) Ok, try this, get your GWF friend to stand around with 0 power and stand out of range of aura gifts, but have his bonding pet (with just bonding stones) attack a dummy so stats are transferring and look at his tooltip ranges, it isn't how I would test things but you on ps4 so it is the best you can do, write them down.
Value 2) Now go stand next to him so that he is buffed by aura gifts as well as his pet, write them down again.
Value 3) Have him put on all his gear and stand away from you and have his bonding pet attack dummies so he has all his stats, now have him write down his tooltip ranges again.
Value 4) Go stand next to him when he has all his buffs up and have him write down his tooltip ranges again.
Divide Value 2 by Value 1 and calculate the %damage increase, ill call this exercise example 1. Divide Value 4 by 3 and calculate the %damage increase, this is example 2.
Notice the % damage increase in example 2 is lower than in example 1, this is what I am talking about.
Here is a simple exercise you can do to prove my point and instead of calling my maths, "fake maths" you can actually learn something.
To anyone tempted to believe his assertions I'll just point out one of the many, many issues on that post: "i buff mobs damage by 30%"; he's referring to the skill Bane which as we all know is single target...
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If you know what u doing then sir do explain to me why the hell i was able to solo elol ecc vt and mc
esot and kr for skimish do oh please because i ran act and wow it shows me a lot... Also i have people bagging me to run CN FBI and esva now im kind of lost what your saying if numbers don't lie?
400 power = 1% so if i give my self more power my % base on what this says? so honestly dude you sir dont have a clue what u talkn about because when and op and dc and take 3k and drop orcus in 6 secs... then by god I must be doing something RIGHT!
again ACT shows my damage increase with full buffs is 186% well bane is on 156% without bane... So where the hell this damage coming from then smart guy? and again if op damage so bad how come i can solo those dungeons? tested it.. So by sir do explain
ps my power is only 27k!!!!???? and i need to start posting the videos and what not on this damn page so u would learn
See here's the thing: Me going from 24k power to 70k power means a power increase of 191% but a dps increase of around 72%.
When I apply that to buffing a GWF at 25% powershare, if he's already at 80k power in combat it takes him to 97.5k power which is around a 22% increase but a dps increase of only 14.6%. Sure, on top of that you apply a single target debuff of up to 30% plus bonus damage from aura of courage (2-3k damage per swing) but you should also bear in mind that a GF also debuffs by Marking and has encounters that boost team DPS (e.g. Commander's Strike)
I'm guessing that your in-combat test was on easy targets because by my calculations your power only went up to 65k, against big hitting targets you should be getting to more like 90-100k with r12's and high HP. This'd imply that you're not taking a lot of damage and so not maxing bonus power from the Oath of Protection mechanic (incr power by 10% of HP).
I'm not questioning your ability to be a highly effective Paladin, just your claim that it buffs others by an amount much higher than a Guardian Fighter. The perverse thing is that the lower a DPS player is, the more you'll increase their DPS, but conversely the higher power that a dps stacks, the less % you buff them by.
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As has been pointed out by many articulate people, power share has naturally lower returns when your targets already have high power to begin with. Buffing someone with 20k power --> 50k power is a bigger dps increase for them than buffing someone with 50k power --> 80k power. That means that you're especially good at "shepherding" lower-geared classes.
But with enough power share (and if you are running Bane), you can bring significant utility to a high-end team. It's also worth noting that although it's hard to match the flat dps increase from ITF, providing more power also supports certain insignia bonuses (artificer's, shepherd's, possibly protector's but I haven't tested).