When has the GWF not been a beast? Seriously. I've had a GWF alt for longer then most have been playing. Not only are they DPS machines...they're easy to play. Swipe, slash, unstoppable, run. Rinse repeat. I grind HEs with my GWF alt more then my main (or other alts combined) because it's effortless and the DPS on an alt with greens and Mulhorands is so high. He's even often paingiver with a 2k item level.
I'm not saying to nerf them though. They make eDemo and Tiamat possible. Good luck doing raids if they do the PvE DPS of HRs,TRs,SWs. They're the go-to for single target DPS. I think they always have been.
When has the GWF not been a beast? Seriously. I've had a GWF alt for longer then most have been playing. Not only are they DPS machines...they're easy to play. Swipe, slash, unstoppable, run. Rinse repeat. I grind HEs with my GWF alt more then my main (or other alts combined) because it's effortless and the DPS on an alt with greens and Mulhorands is so high. He's even often paingiver with a 2k item level.
I'm not saying to nerf them though. They make eDemo and Tiamat possible. Good luck doing raids if they do the PvE DPS of HRs,TRs,SWs. They're the go-to for single target DPS. I think they always have been.
elol set is what makes gwf great 1 target dps without it its worthless
Pre-Module 1, DPS so low that people were mocking the entire class. Rembmer a guy saying "GWFs are so cute while they TRY to kill thingys". Basically, the class DPS was so low they could pretty much just hope to clear some trash IF they managed to run ahead of the group
Module 1: only use for the class was being a PvP immortal regeneration sentinel and back-cap. DPS were still sub-par.
module 4, module 5 unless you were BiS enough to use the intimidation build. The class was a real useless mess till module 6 rework. And every decent player agreed that it was an overnerf.
You guys have either bad memory or some fixation on GWFs because it's been OP in PvP for 2 modules (module 2 and 3), close to PvE CW in 1 module (module 2 due to bugged deep gash), and now is:
Best DPS in PvE, strong in PvP but easily countered by:
DPS GFs one-rotating them(wins) OP (stall) Tank DC (stall) TR MI/Sabo (usually wins due to SE and CB going through GWF sprint and unstoppable)
which are 4 classes out of 7, leaving out only HR and SW.
So more like the class has been top PvP for 2 modules, on par with CW for 1 module in PvE, really bad for 2 modules (module 4 and 5, since intimidation builds could be used only by 1% of the GWF population, which is NOT balance or the class being a beast. And that build was still easily beaten by CWs ans TRs, so not "top-dog". Was a burst glass cannon), and now is strong in PvP (but not top-dog) and top DPS in PvE, which is 1 aspect. CWs, instead, during a 5 modules of PvE dominion (modules 1 to 5) were both top CC AND top DPS. 2 aspects of PvE. Reason why they didn't need other classes except, sometimes, DCs.
This is to sum up basically the FACTS avout GWFs from pre-module 1 to module 7.
elol set is what makes gwf great 1 target dps without it its worthless
I wouldn't say it's worthless but eLoL set sure gives GWFs the edge. But also: IV gets behind SM in DPS by far; non-crit builds also get far far behind.
I'd just make eLoL set a flat weapon damage NOT BUFFED, on crits. And then raise GWF base damage and decrease the fully buffed damage, to normalize the DPS that, right now go from a very low base damage to an overbuffed state. And taking into account the consequences on the survivability part, with Unstoppable temp HP being greatly reduced by the self-buffs nerf and LS being reduced by the DPS decrease. That might get compensated making sprint and unstoppable DR on a separate layer, which would still give other classes a window to burst the GWF.
You'd have a GWF that hits less hard and have more reliable mechanics.
Then fix OP to make CC needed again in epics, and bring the DPS paths of other classes
Am I the only one thats getting a little tired of getting massively out DPS'd by GWF's on all my characters that I've spent alot of time, effort and money on? It's just a little frustrating when my 3.2K HR get's out DPS'd by a 2.4K GWF thats still using his Mulhorand Sword. I have a GWF as well and I enjoy playing him, but it just doesn't seem fair that the character I've spent countless hours on (my HR) is only "on par" with the GWF that I just got to 70 2 weeks ago.
Felt similar when Pally came along with Mod 6. I was a GF and felt the game replaced my class altogether. The bubbladins always vexed me. I had people on runs discussing how much more they liked "pallys" and their "auras". I always felt that my ability to fight was so-so. Eventually I switched to GWF.
Have HRs ever been consisently high on the PainGiver chart? Why did you choose HR? GWFs sprint up to the monster to bring an onslaught. At times, heh, we sprint away from it just as fast. But the one thing we really do is deal damage. There are other things to do in the game that are more subtle, but it takes classes like HR to do them. GWF doesn't have much other skill.
When has the GWF not been a beast? Seriously. I've had a GWF alt for longer then most have been playing. Not only are they DPS machines...they're easy to play.
beta, m1, m4, m5? (m4 ok thanks to intimidation+bis gear, but still the third class)
m2/m3 is the best class for pvp and the second for pve. now is the best DPS class for pve. "aways beast" is a stupidy hyperbole that really need stop
long story short.
be a striker is not just have a big damage, but "mobility" too (i dont will explain that HAMSTER again). mobility, CC and some utilitary tools (give dodge to the party for example) become obsolete in pve thanks to the reduction in the general difficult+some crazy stuffs like sh boons.
so...
A - you can ask to the devs down all that unecessary utility, mobility in change of damage to the classes like hr/tr (seens fair).
B - Ask for difficult content again (optional please) in order to see all that tools shine again.
C - still in that war against gwf - and no, thats is not because the class do too much damage... that hate is more than documented - and see all that great powers still unecessary.
ps: i see some crazy mofs outside these days... i aways like mofs, so i dont care too much, but... no damage concernes about this? hmmm
gwf w 2500 item level vs tr with 3k item level, in a dragon fight let's say, gwf will do DOUBLE the dps (just did it with ACT a few weeks ago, both of us with all boons, lostmauth, etc). Our guild has some bis cw's that do as good as gwf's, but they've been playing since release...
CC is cool and all, but the GAME IS JUST TOO EASY to need it. It's true, a couple of TRs alternating smoke bombs and stealthed ds can keep 5 or 6 mobs from ever hitting anybody, and/or CW/HR can do same kind of things from range. But the game is too easy to 'need' it.
However, we should be careful about saying that the game is too easy, because cryptic's solution to 'too easy' is to just give bosses a one-shot unblockable 120k-damage-to-everyone move, without an indicator! Weak and lazy design... that's all they can do. Not being mean or critical or anything, it's just the truth. Contrast nwo end-game dungeons with something like Rift; nwo is vastly inferior in dungeon design/mechanics. For example, Rift might have some mechanic where the range bow players are needed to shoot some alter to freeze some kind of spawning mob, giving everyone time to kill it. result: must have a couple of 'bow' peeps in group. Then some other fight might require a 'tank' that can 'blink' or do 'skill-x', wallah, a 'mage-tank'?! yea... mechanics that require a few of every class, in some cases, class-x with build-y. (But then that game gave everyone the ability to switch between builds).
I'm not proposing playing Rift (I don't anymore), and I'm not being mean or anything (nwo has some cool aspects, combat moves very nicely imo). It's just that creating end-game content like that, where each class really IS needed, is a LOT of work. More work than I think cryptic is willing to do.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
Every class should have a role but we got at least 3 that have none because one class fills the role so well that they aren't necessary. That's a problem and it should be fixed.
I agree. The GF has been short-changed and the Pally should be nerfed to kingdom come!
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
GWF dmg is ridunculus. Either nerf them or raise TR dmg so we can at least deal 50% of theirs instead of 25%
Is that damage to be done in stealth or mid-dodge roll? I don't have a problem with the TR doing more damage if they have to fight more straightforwardly. I finally have enough HP to survive SE's, but AP built TRs just dodge/stealth for 10 secs and take another bite of the apple....
In PVE I don't totally get their placement. Are they cat burglars or buccaneer types?
Am I the only one thats getting a little tired of getting massively out DPS'd by GWF's on all my characters that I've spent alot of time, effort and money on? It's just a little frustrating when my 3.2K HR get's out DPS'd by a 2.4K GWF thats still using his Mulhorand Sword. I have a GWF as well and I enjoy playing him, but it just doesn't seem fair that the character I've spent countless hours on (my HR) is only "on par" with the GWF that I just got to 70 2 weeks ago.
My HR topped the DPS in eLoL with GWF at 3.4 IL and me at 3.1. I think you might want to respec your HR if the goal is DPS.
Hey bud, just wanted to offer a small correction... SW Fury Soulbinder is the leader in DPS, not Hellbringer. Hellbringer was the Beast pre-Mod 6, since then it's been Soulbinder.
SW Fury Soulbinder is the leader in solo target damage, just FYI. GWF SM Destroyer is good at it, and brings massive melee/AoE DPS with it, but SW will kick it's butt when it comes to solo target.
The truth is that if the GWF got nerfed then the PVE would collapse in the game. You would remove ALL the GWF from gameplay and have no reliable players for the PVE content. The next thing would bethe collapse of the game itself. Maybe thats not such a bad thing after all.
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
The truth is that if the GWF got nerfed then the PVE would collapse in the game. You would remove ALL the GWF from gameplay and have no reliable players for the PVE content. The next thing would bethe collapse of the game itself. Maybe thats not such a bad thing after all.
lol. GWFs got nerfed to the ground in Mod 3. They were the worst class, even being beat by DPS DC and GFs. SW and CW were the DPS kings. The game did not die. Mod 6 we got a buff and now everyone is crying.
m4... m3 GC bargain bleed and the massive utility of sos (a passive perfect plague fire) to the stacks system and a improved cc (fast roar and takedown). m4 come the general nerfs.
Its even more cute if you trying to make bad joke about it.
Btw, to compare, CW isnt the brainest class, same as GF or OP. TR? Dodge and then back to DPS, key is good PvE build. HR? After work on rotation its just massive button smashing. SW? Not rly. But making laugh at GWF players, oh so funny. Clap clap.
There is 1 main difference in people's past and current perception, that leads to lengthy discussions. Is a class overpowered if there is 1 build (using broken/overpowered stuff) that is overpowered?
If Cryptic would correct overperforming stuff immediately (like SW puppets, lol-set, broken HV set during lfg 4cw CN ...) then the answer would be obviously "no". But everyone knows, overpowered stuff stays for a long time - Cryptic don't even communicate if something should be corrected. Because broken stuff stays for several mods, most good geared people adapt to it and use it.
I admit, if there is 1 overpowered build of a certain class, I have the feeling all people playing that class are using it and my perception of the whole class is broken/overpowered. At the moment almost every GWF is running around with high crit builds and lol-set and is making insane damage => general perception: they are overperforming - of course a nerf should target the overpowered stuff and not the whole class.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
At the moment almost every GWF is running around with high crit builds and lol-set and is making insane damage
Nop. I run with a lot GWFs. Yesterday we got 2 GWFs in Spider. One had iLevel 2,8k and the other 4,2k. Guess who made more dps ( both SM/Destroyer)? Its not the gear alone that makes insane dps. If it would everybody does the same dps. And no gwf cares about if they nerf lol set.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
At the moment almost every GWF is running around with high crit builds and lol-set and is making insane damage
Nop. I run with a lot GWFs. Yesterday we got 2 GWFs in Spider. One had iLevel 2,8k and the other 4,2k. Guess who made more dps ( both SM/Destroyer)? Its not the gear alone that makes insane dps. If it would everybody does the same dps. And no gwf cares about if they nerf lol set.
I'm not sure if you play the same game as everybody here
I'm not sure if you play the same game as everybody here
Im not sure if you understand what i wrote. But i will explain it for you, cuzz your so nice and cute: Its not only the gear that makes a good player. If you dont know how to use your skills/movement, you can have an ilevel with 5k+++++ and you make not more dps than any other with only 2k ilevel. Or maybe i missed a new ZEN token "Token of skill. If you buy this, you dont need any skill. Just press A"?
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
I'm not sure if you play the same game as everybody here
Im not sure if you understand what i wrote. But i will explain it for you, cuzz your so nice and cute: Its not only the gear that makes a good player. If you dont know how to use your skills/movement, you can have an ilevel with 5k+++++ and you make not more dps than any other with only 2k ilevel. Or maybe i missed a new ZEN token "Token of skill. If you buy this, you dont need any skill. Just press A"?
Just compare classes with Egal skill and egal stuff and maybe you will undestrand what I wrote.
Just compare classes with Egal skill and egal stuff and maybe you will undestrand what I wrote.
And same role. I see CWs comparing their current state to strikers like GWF or SW. Both deal alot DPS and there are some SWs who deal even more than good PvE GWF.
Also, IL means nothing if you not take 2 true PvE builds from same class to compare. Feytouch is meh compared to vorp.
Comments
I've had a GWF alt for longer then most have been playing.
Not only are they DPS machines...they're easy to play. Swipe, slash, unstoppable, run. Rinse repeat.
I grind HEs with my GWF alt more then my main (or other alts combined) because it's effortless and the DPS on an alt with greens and Mulhorands is so high. He's even often paingiver with a 2k item level.
I'm not saying to nerf them though. They make eDemo and Tiamat possible. Good luck doing raids if they do the PvE DPS of HRs,TRs,SWs. They're the go-to for single target DPS. I think they always have been.
Module 1: only use for the class was being a PvP immortal regeneration sentinel and back-cap. DPS were still sub-par.
module 4, module 5 unless you were BiS enough to use the intimidation build. The class was a real useless mess till module 6 rework. And every decent player agreed that it was an overnerf.
You guys have either bad memory or some fixation on GWFs because it's been OP in PvP for 2 modules (module 2 and 3), close to PvE CW in 1 module (module 2 due to bugged deep gash), and now is:
Best DPS in PvE, strong in PvP but easily countered by:
DPS GFs one-rotating them(wins)
OP (stall)
Tank DC (stall)
TR MI/Sabo (usually wins due to SE and CB going through GWF sprint and unstoppable)
which are 4 classes out of 7, leaving out only HR and SW.
So more like the class has been top PvP for 2 modules, on par with CW for 1 module in PvE, really bad for 2 modules (module 4 and 5, since intimidation builds could be used only by 1% of the GWF population, which is NOT balance or the class being a beast. And that build was still easily beaten by CWs ans TRs, so not "top-dog". Was a burst glass cannon), and now is strong in PvP (but not top-dog) and top DPS in PvE, which is 1 aspect. CWs, instead, during a 5 modules of PvE dominion (modules 1 to 5) were both top CC AND top DPS. 2 aspects of PvE. Reason why they didn't need other classes except, sometimes, DCs.
This is to sum up basically the FACTS avout GWFs from pre-module 1 to module 7.
I'd just make eLoL set a flat weapon damage NOT BUFFED, on crits.
And then raise GWF base damage and decrease the fully buffed damage, to normalize the DPS that, right now go from a very low base damage to an overbuffed state.
And taking into account the consequences on the survivability part, with Unstoppable temp HP being greatly reduced by the self-buffs nerf and LS being reduced by the DPS decrease. That might get compensated making sprint and unstoppable DR on a separate layer, which would still give other classes a window to burst the GWF.
You'd have a GWF that hits less hard and have more reliable mechanics.
Then fix OP to make CC needed again in epics, and bring the DPS paths of other classes
- Executioner TR
- Stormwarden Archery and combat HR
- MoF CW
- Hellbringer Fury SW
stronger at DPS in relation to what else they can bring to the group. If it's DPS only, they should be at the same level of a destroyer.
It's quite simple in my opinion.
Have HRs ever been consisently high on the PainGiver chart? Why did you choose HR? GWFs sprint up to the monster to bring an onslaught. At times, heh, we sprint away from it just as fast. But the one thing we really do is deal damage. There are other things to do in the game that are more subtle, but it takes classes like HR to do them. GWF doesn't have much other skill.
m2/m3 is the best class for pvp and the second for pve. now is the best DPS class for pve. "aways beast" is a stupidy hyperbole that really need stop
long story short.
be a striker is not just have a big damage, but "mobility" too (i dont will explain that HAMSTER again). mobility, CC and some utilitary tools (give dodge to the party for example) become obsolete in pve thanks to the reduction in the general difficult+some crazy stuffs like sh boons.
so...
A - you can ask to the devs down all that unecessary utility, mobility in change of damage to the classes like hr/tr (seens fair).
B - Ask for difficult content again (optional please) in order to see all that tools shine again.
C - still in that war against gwf - and no, thats is not because the class do too much damage... that hate is more than documented - and see all that great powers still unecessary.
ps: i see some crazy mofs outside these days... i aways like mofs, so i dont care too much, but... no damage concernes about this? hmmm
CC is cool and all, but the GAME IS JUST TOO EASY to need it. It's true, a couple of TRs alternating smoke bombs and stealthed ds can keep 5 or 6 mobs from ever hitting anybody, and/or CW/HR can do same kind of things from range. But the game is too easy to 'need' it.
However, we should be careful about saying that the game is too easy, because cryptic's solution to 'too easy' is to just give bosses a one-shot unblockable 120k-damage-to-everyone move, without an indicator! Weak and lazy design... that's all they can do. Not being mean or critical or anything, it's just the truth. Contrast nwo end-game dungeons with something like Rift; nwo is vastly inferior in dungeon design/mechanics. For example, Rift might have some mechanic where the range bow players are needed to shoot some alter to freeze some kind of spawning mob, giving everyone time to kill it. result: must have a couple of 'bow' peeps in group. Then some other fight might require a 'tank' that can 'blink' or do 'skill-x', wallah, a 'mage-tank'?! yea... mechanics that require a few of every class, in some cases, class-x with build-y. (But then that game gave everyone the ability to switch between builds).
I'm not proposing playing Rift (I don't anymore), and I'm not being mean or anything (nwo has some cool aspects, combat moves very nicely imo). It's just that creating end-game content like that, where each class really IS needed, is a LOT of work. More work than I think cryptic is willing to do.
In PVE I don't totally get their placement. Are they cat burglars or buccaneer types?
I think you might want to respec your HR if the goal is DPS.
Lethinath - DC
Fayn Fiddler - HR
Jean Fiddler - OP
Quinn Fiddler - TR
Tre'Davious Flynn - SW
Bogus Skullslicker - GF
Vanhankaupunginselk - CW
Alea - GWF
Noble Misfits
Hey bud, just wanted to offer a small correction... SW Fury Soulbinder is the leader in DPS, not Hellbringer. Hellbringer was the Beast pre-Mod 6, since then it's been Soulbinder.
@deathbeez
SW Fury Soulbinder is the leader in solo target damage, just FYI. GWF SM Destroyer is good at it, and brings massive melee/AoE DPS with it, but SW will kick it's butt when it comes to solo target.
GF.OP.HR.CW.DC.GWF.TR.
Isn't it 7 classes in total we have in this game?
O.o
Btw, to compare, CW isnt the brainest class, same as GF or OP. TR? Dodge and then back to DPS, key is good PvE build. HR? After work on rotation its just massive button smashing. SW? Not rly. But making laugh at GWF players, oh so funny. Clap clap.
I DO mind the degree of it.
I play a 3,7k CW.. and when I am in a group with a similarily geared dps GWF he easily do 2-3 times as much damage.
Which is way too much.
The dps advantage a GWF should have over CW because CW has more utility should not be more than 30% at most.
2-3 times as much damage is ridiculous.
So yes, a heavy GWF nerf should happen.
But start with bringing down the seriously OPed Lostmauth set to sane levels.
Is a class overpowered if there is 1 build (using broken/overpowered stuff) that is overpowered?
If Cryptic would correct overperforming stuff immediately (like SW puppets, lol-set, broken HV set during lfg 4cw CN ...) then the answer would be obviously "no". But everyone knows, overpowered stuff stays for a long time - Cryptic don't even communicate if something should be corrected. Because broken stuff stays for several mods, most good geared people adapt to it and use it.
I admit, if there is 1 overpowered build of a certain class, I have the feeling all people playing that class are using it and my perception of the whole class is broken/overpowered.
At the moment almost every GWF is running around with high crit builds and lol-set and is making insane damage => general perception: they are overperforming - of course a nerf should target the overpowered stuff and not the whole class.
And no gwf cares about if they nerf lol set.
Its not only the gear that makes a good player. If you dont know how to use your skills/movement, you can have an ilevel with 5k+++++ and you make not more dps than any other with only 2k ilevel.
Or maybe i missed a new ZEN token "Token of skill. If you buy this, you dont need any skill. Just press A"?
Also, IL means nothing if you not take 2 true PvE builds from same class to compare. Feytouch is meh compared to vorp.