It is so subjective. We do not know what feats the other classes had, what powers, what weapons. It is useless data.
You will find countless examples of insane GWF damage, you will not find the opposite examples - a GWF showing how badly beaten he was by a lower IL. I have not done a single edemo, PUG dungeon or private invite where a GWF did not top paingiver, I once saw a 4k TR coming close, but I don't believe that a 4k should struggle to beat a 2.5k GWF . Thats just my own anecdotal observation, but I am 100% certain that my observations match most other players observations, I am 100% certain that if every paingiver score was recorded that it would show the massive disparity in damage, do you believe the opposite holds true ?
But you really don't have to argue with me about it, you should argue with your fellow GWFs here, none of them have actually denied this is true, they defend it by saying that GWF is supposed by such a high damage dealer.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
What baffles me is that it comes up at all. Why is it important if one class does more damage than the other?
I am baffled by people that try to explain all these problems aways by claiming it does not matter - of course it matters ! When you invest month or years of time and money and then find out that was all a waste and the only thing that matters is what class you picked at the start, then its a VERY big deal.
So is this to say that if someone had picked a gwf at the start they are the lucky ones since gwfs have always been awesome sauce?
What baffles me is that it comes up at all. Why is it important if one class does more damage than the other?
I am baffled by people that try to explain all these problems aways by claiming it does not matter - of course it matters ! When you invest month or years of time and money and then find out that was all a waste and the only thing that matters is what class you picked at the start, then its a VERY big deal.
How much CC a CW brings? Is CW CC worth only 30% DPS? Expecially if, most likely, in the future with fixed OPs, CC will be needed. If, even now, you run without an OP, CC is golden. I wouldn't rate it equal to a 30% DPS difference.
So i'd take a look at how much CC a CW brings, and how valuable it is with proper PvE content (3k dungeons and "fixed" OPs).
Ya, maybe not... I would say around 20%, as 30% is a lot more.
I did some testing along with a friend of min, who plays a GWF, I was on a CW. Using ATC we did some target dummy dps in the guildhall.
One thing stands out, when looking at the statistics of the test - The degree of stacking the GWF has. Let me try to explain, we are looking at Lostmouth's Vengeance, A proc from the lostmouth set, triggering on critical hits. I am picking the lostmouth proc because it is an attack that both the CW and the GWF has in this case. The GWF and the CW are both 2.7kilevel.
The CW - Starts out doing around 2400 damage pr. proc and when all buffs/debuffs from the CW are stacked, ending at around 6800damage. and increase of around 280%
The GWF - Starts at around 3500 damage pr. proc and when all buffs/debuffs from the GWF are stacked, ending at around 45000damage. An increase of around 1200%.
On a later Dragon Flight guild encounter, out of 9 players, we had just one GWF, combatlog shows the GWF having an average of 35000dps the rest of the DPS classes (2CW, 1SW, 2TS and on HR) all had around 10000dps. On another dragon flight. with just 7 players the one GWF (all the same guy) had done 39million damage out of a total of 80million. So one guy doing as much damage as 6 other players.
Now I know that all of you that main a GWF dos not want to see a nerf to the class. But you must admit that the class is a bit over the top, with 2.7ilevel beeing enough to solo 10+ player HEs in Dwarven vally. With a 4k Ilevel GWF soloing a full T2 dungeon, ect.
I for one would like to see all the "dps" classes (HR, CW, TR, SW and GWF) be with in 20% or maybe 30% dps of each other, giving same gear and player skill. With the classes that offer other things, like slight CC or consistent group buffs to be on the lower part of the bracket. But honest to my knowledge all the classes offer something other then DPS, the GWF fx, gives aoe group combat advantage.
As such I would like the lacking dps classes to get a buff and the leading dps class to get a nerf, bringing the classes closer. At this point a TR or a CW or whatever, could get a 100% increase in dps and still be far behind an equal ilevel GWF.
edit: removing self fluffing.
Funny how none of the apologists for the GWF will ever reply to this. Nobody with even the hint of any intelligence can openly defend the GWF in its current state.
You mean reply to a thread that has no info on the skill level or builds of the other players mentioned here as a comparison?
Eh you can at least assume that any CW in that is following Ironzerg's/beatannier's guide.
nvm.... I was going to try, but really nothing I could say will make some of you people listen or change your mind.
I will say this, if they nerf my GWF because of you crybaby whining people, have fun playing this game by yourself.... maybe you can run the new CN with a full party of trapper HRs .... fools.
Translation: Everyone else should have half my DPS or I quit.
Yea, no. Folks say all the time how many people in NW don't frequent the forums but in this case it works for the agenda, yea? Or wait, the CW in question got the guide info through someone else who has been to the forum, maybe? But let's say the CW is following these guides...what do we have? I'll explain "This dude over here who is a gwf and IL XXXX out dps'd this dude over here who is a CW with IL XXXX. Very compelling.
You will find countless examples of insane GWF damage, you will not find the opposite examples - a GWF showing how badly beaten he was by a lower IL. I have not done a single edemo, PUG dungeon or private invite where a GWF did not top paingiver, I once saw a 4k TR coming close, but I don't believe that a 4k should struggle to beat a 2.5k GWF . Thats just my own anecdotal observation, but I am 100% certain that my observations match most other players observations, I am 100% certain that if every paingiver score was recorded that it would show the massive disparity in damage, do you believe the opposite holds true ?
But you really don't have to argue with me about it, you should argue with your fellow GWFs here, none of them have actually denied this is true, they defend it by saying that GWF is supposed by such a high damage dealer.
About that 4k tr, he was prolly a pvp one or just rly bad one. Plenty of them around. Talk with thorina, thats overpowered tr for u. And thats all what i have to said about tr's.
About cw. They r like OPs. Either top DPS or top controll, its up to u what u chose, but most of them takes dps, doing it totaly or partialy wrong. Around there r still top ones who can come rly close to my gwf, i just win simply coz im always first on pull, and trashes r always dead before they even join the fight, but on bosses they can go on pair with me (well only some of them).
Hr's? ehh hr's, cant say much here, still trying to fully understand this class, and before that i wont say a word.
SW is another story, there r monsters around who dont rly need fabled set or be damnation to simply crush every1 around them. Looking at u Fernu.
I just think u guys never met rly good dps examples of other classes. Will top gwf top any other class? well it will be weird if he dont. Top dps gwf takes out top cw or hr by x1.5 dmg (same skill, same il) But in that time trapper will also root, cw will drop IT and OF and stun they targets (and also have incrased dmg on targets immuned on controll) and TR will drop his SB (bear in mind that best TR just kill trashes with one whirlwind upon entering combat, u say its bad dps?)
I think nobody rly had balls to answer this one question, what will gwf become if his dps will be on pair with other classes? Who would take gwf if he cant drop Smoke Bomb, cant drop Opressive Force or root everything around him?
Most funny r those crying cw's, since they r PRIMARY controller, then dps, both of hr and tr r primary striker, but secondray controllers, and they controll powers (given its few only) last pretty long, dont u think? Sw has it worse out of them, but from what i seen "for some reason" they dont cry too much, at least the top ones.
That said gwf is striker/defender. When he goes defender (ty intimidation nerf) he is no more striker, and not rly a tank too, that for sure. When he is striker, he is 0 defender (just like cw, but even full dps cw still has OF and can freeze nicely) all what keeps gwf alive is hight LS, those temppoint we get r not affected by defense buff (partialy, deflect work pretty well, and some defense buffs still too) and usualy r eaten with 1, max 2 hits. Its more like tool to take tension lower for a sec or 2. Defender my HAMSTER (the animal, animal! im saying animal!).
That said, go out with paingiver and come back when u will have ACT with u. Most of the time all what paingiver says if who was first on trashes. Thats it. have u "observe" that?
Maybe its not coz those few ppl in each class is so good. Maybe, just maybe... u and the whole bunch is bad? Who know, not me, never met u. Lets dont change that, shall we?
Yea, no. Folks say all the time how many people in NW don't frequent the forums but in this case it works for the agenda, yea? Or wait, the CW in question got the guide info through someone else who has been to the forum, maybe? But let's say the CW is following these guides...what do we have? I'll explain "This dude over here who is a gwf and IL XXXX out dps'd this dude over here who is a CW with IL XXXX. Very compelling.
Where did this come from? I don't remember posting this, what thread? Not saying I didn't , I just don't remember it.
No no, I eff'd up the quote bro. You didn't post this, I did.
Before the Storm Spell nerf, easily. Now it is more a player skill and speed issue. If a CW can Icy Terrain and Steal time a mob to the nine hecks before the GWF even gets to them, they win.
Why do people keep bringing up stuff from three mods ago? It's not relevant to current balance.
How much CC a CW brings? Is CW CC worth only 30% DPS? Expecially if, most likely, in the future with fixed OPs, CC will be needed. If, even now, you run without an OP, CC is golden. I wouldn't rate it equal to a 30% DPS difference.
So i'd take a look at how much CC a CW brings, and how valuable it is with proper PvE content (3k dungeons and "fixed" OPs).
Ya, maybe not... I would say around 20%, as 30% is a lot more.
I did some testing along with a friend of min, who plays a GWF, I was on a CW. Using ATC we did some target dummy dps in the guildhall.
One thing stands out, when looking at the statistics of the test - The degree of stacking the GWF has. Let me try to explain, we are looking at Lostmouth's Vengeance, A proc from the lostmouth set, triggering on critical hits. I am picking the lostmouth proc because it is an attack that both the CW and the GWF has in this case. The GWF and the CW are both 2.7kilevel.
The CW - Starts out doing around 2400 damage pr. proc and when all buffs/debuffs from the CW are stacked, ending at around 6800damage. and increase of around 280%
The GWF - Starts at around 3500 damage pr. proc and when all buffs/debuffs from the GWF are stacked, ending at around 45000damage. An increase of around 1200%.
On a later Dragon Flight guild encounter, out of 9 players, we had just one GWF, combatlog shows the GWF having an average of 35000dps the rest of the DPS classes (2CW, 1SW, 2TS and on HR) all had around 10000dps. On another dragon flight. with just 7 players the one GWF (all the same guy) had done 39million damage out of a total of 80million. So one guy doing as much damage as 6 other players.
Now I know that all of you that main a GWF dos not want to see a nerf to the class. But you must admit that the class is a bit over the top, with 2.7ilevel beeing enough to solo 10+ player HEs in Dwarven vally. With a 4k Ilevel GWF soloing a full T2 dungeon, ect.
I for one would like to see all the "dps" classes (HR, CW, TR, SW and GWF) be with in 20% or maybe 30% dps of each other, giving same gear and player skill. With the classes that offer other things, like slight CC or consistent group buffs to be on the lower part of the bracket. But honest to my knowledge all the classes offer something other then DPS, the GWF fx, gives aoe group combat advantage.
As such I would like the lacking dps classes to get a buff and the leading dps class to get a nerf, bringing the classes closer. At this point a TR or a CW or whatever, could get a 100% increase in dps and still be far behind an equal ilevel GWF.
edit: removing self fluffing.
Funny how none of the apologists for the GWF will ever reply to this. Nobody with even the hint of any intelligence can openly defend the GWF in its current state.
You mean reply to a thread that has no info on the skill level or builds of the other players mentioned here as a comparison?
Eh you can at least assume that any CW in that is following Ironzerg's/beatannier's guide.
nvm.... I was going to try, but really nothing I could say will make some of you people listen or change your mind.
I will say this, if they nerf my GWF because of you crybaby whining people, have fun playing this game by yourself.... maybe you can run the new CN with a full party of trapper HRs .... fools.
Translation: Everyone else should have half my DPS or I quit.
NOPE, translation is this, Stop crying and learn your role.
lol IKR controllers should just control all the CC immune/resistant mobs because it'll make a huge difference.
What about TRs? Are they just supposed to be worse strikers than GWF?
You will find countless examples of insane GWF damage, you will not find the opposite examples - a GWF showing how badly beaten he was by a lower IL. I have not done a single edemo, PUG dungeon or private invite where a GWF did not top paingiver, I once saw a 4k TR coming close, but I don't believe that a 4k should struggle to beat a 2.5k GWF . Thats just my own anecdotal observation, but I am 100% certain that my observations match most other players observations, I am 100% certain that if every paingiver score was recorded that it would show the massive disparity in damage, do you believe the opposite holds true ?
But you really don't have to argue with me about it, you should argue with your fellow GWFs here, none of them have actually denied this is true, they defend it by saying that GWF is supposed by such a high damage dealer.
About that 4k tr, he was prolly a pvp one or just rly bad one. Plenty of them around. Talk with thorina, thats overpowered tr for u. And thats all what i have to said about tr's.
About cw. They r like OPs. Either top DPS or top controll, its up to u what u chose, but most of them takes dps, doing it totaly or partialy wrong. Around there r still top ones who can come rly close to my gwf, i just win simply coz im always first on pull, and trashes r always dead before they even join the fight, but on bosses they can go on pair with me (well only some of them).
Hr's? ehh hr's, cant say much here, still trying to fully understand this class, and before that i wont say a word.
SW is another story, there r monsters around who dont rly need fabled set or be damnation to simply crush every1 around them. Looking at u Fernu.
I just think u guys never met rly good dps examples of other classes. Will top gwf top any other class? well it will be weird if he dont. Top dps gwf takes out top cw or hr by x1.5 dmg (same skill, same il) But in that time trapper will also root, cw will drop IT and OF and stun they targets (and also have incrased dmg on targets immuned on controll) and TR will drop his SB (bear in mind that best TR just kill trashes with one whirlwind upon entering combat, u say its bad dps?)
I think nobody rly had balls to answer this one question, what will gwf become if his dps will be on pair with other classes? Who would take gwf if he cant drop Smoke Bomb, cant drop Opressive Force or root everything around him?
Most funny r those crying cw's, since they r PRIMARY controller, then dps, both of hr and tr r primary striker, but secondray controllers, and they controll powers (given its few only) last pretty long, dont u think? Sw has it worse out of them, but from what i seen "for some reason" they dont cry too much, at least the top ones.
That said gwf is striker/defender. When he goes defender (ty intimidation nerf) he is no more striker, and not rly a tank too, that for sure. When he is striker, he is 0 defender (just like cw, but even full dps cw still has OF and can freeze nicely) all what keeps gwf alive is hight LS, those temppoint we get r not affected by defense buff (partialy, deflect work pretty well, and some defense buffs still too) and usualy r eaten with 1, max 2 hits. Its more like tool to take tension lower for a sec or 2. Defender my HAMSTER (the animal, animal! im saying animal!).
That said, go out with paingiver and come back when u will have ACT with u. Most of the time all what paingiver says if who was first on trashes. Thats it. have u "observe" that?
Maybe its not coz those few ppl in each class is so good. Maybe, just maybe... u and the whole bunch is bad? Who know, not me, never met u. Lets dont change that, shall we?
(Sin)cerely Kain
One of the best posts ever. I hope they dont listen to alle the "I was in kindergarden module 5 allmost a god with my CW. What happened? Why do i have CC?" crybabys. Its so boring....shame on you, guys/girls. You wanna nerf a class but you dont want give that class any to compensate? Think about it.
Btw, GWF are about as much of a controller than a CW that's dps specced. They have very strong aoe and have multiple CC effects.
Muhahahahahaha. They have multiple CCs? You know the difference between CC and stun/pron? And you know how "perfect" things like "come and get me" works? You made my day....."GWFs got mulitple CC effects"...damn funny
Btw, GWF are about as much of a controller than a CW that's dps specced. They have very strong aoe and have multiple CC effects.
Muhahahahahaha. They have multiple CCs? You know the difference between CC and stun/pron? And you know how "perfect" things like "come and get me" works? You made my day....."GWFs got mulitple CC effects"...damn funny
How is stuns and prones not CC effects? Please enlighten me.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
You will find countless examples of insane GWF damage, you will not find the opposite examples - a GWF showing how badly beaten he was by a lower IL. I have not done a single edemo, PUG dungeon or private invite where a GWF did not top paingiver, I once saw a 4k TR coming close, but I don't believe that a 4k should struggle to beat a 2.5k GWF . Thats just my own anecdotal observation, but I am 100% certain that my observations match most other players observations, I am 100% certain that if every paingiver score was recorded that it would show the massive disparity in damage, do you believe the opposite holds true ?
But you really don't have to argue with me about it, you should argue with your fellow GWFs here, none of them have actually denied this is true, they defend it by saying that GWF is supposed by such a high damage dealer.
About that 4k tr, he was prolly a pvp one or just rly bad one. Plenty of them around. Talk with thorina, thats overpowered tr for u. And thats all what i have to said about tr's.
About cw. They r like OPs. Either top DPS or top controll, its up to u what u chose, but most of them takes dps, doing it totaly or partialy wrong. Around there r still top ones who can come rly close to my gwf, i just win simply coz im always first on pull, and trashes r always dead before they even join the fight, but on bosses they can go on pair with me (well only some of them).
Hr's? ehh hr's, cant say much here, still trying to fully understand this class, and before that i wont say a word.
SW is another story, there r monsters around who dont rly need fabled set or be damnation to simply crush every1 around them. Looking at u Fernu.
I just think u guys never met rly good dps examples of other classes. Will top gwf top any other class? well it will be weird if he dont. Top dps gwf takes out top cw or hr by x1.5 dmg (same skill, same il) But in that time trapper will also root, cw will drop IT and OF and stun they targets (and also have incrased dmg on targets immuned on controll) and TR will drop his SB (bear in mind that best TR just kill trashes with one whirlwind upon entering combat, u say its bad dps?)
I think nobody rly had balls to answer this one question, what will gwf become if his dps will be on pair with other classes? Who would take gwf if he cant drop Smoke Bomb, cant drop Opressive Force or root everything around him?
Most funny r those crying cw's, since they r PRIMARY controller, then dps, both of hr and tr r primary striker, but secondray controllers, and they controll powers (given its few only) last pretty long, dont u think? Sw has it worse out of them, but from what i seen "for some reason" they dont cry too much, at least the top ones.
That said gwf is striker/defender. When he goes defender (ty intimidation nerf) he is no more striker, and not rly a tank too, that for sure. When he is striker, he is 0 defender (just like cw, but even full dps cw still has OF and can freeze nicely) all what keeps gwf alive is hight LS, those temppoint we get r not affected by defense buff (partialy, deflect work pretty well, and some defense buffs still too) and usualy r eaten with 1, max 2 hits. Its more like tool to take tension lower for a sec or 2. Defender my HAMSTER (the animal, animal! im saying animal!).
That said, go out with paingiver and come back when u will have ACT with u. Most of the time all what paingiver says if who was first on trashes. Thats it. have u "observe" that?
Maybe its not coz those few ppl in each class is so good. Maybe, just maybe... u and the whole bunch is bad? Who know, not me, never met u. Lets dont change that, shall we?
(Sin)cerely Kain
As I have said to you before kain, my CW would be MoF ren and not SS ren if it weren't for the fact that there aren't enough good GWF's to buff to make it worthwhile. There are like 20 truly good GWF's and then a whole lot of average ones and it feels like a waste speccing to buff average ones 90% of the time.
How boring. Module is done, content is too easy and people concentrate on what they do best. Whining.
Some smart people try to explain the role of a GWF and are willing to discuss but... haters, trolls, infantile... A GWF suddenly got CC skills. Do I missed them? Or is this about PvP? There is a bit of CC... hmm let´s see ... will we find posts here that say GWF is overpowered in PvP too? Yes. No words. GWF suddenly got a nice dodge. What the heck. And Unstoppable. Yes its bugged (we are /&%$ since months for a bugfix in the bug report section) and yes it is the most powerful GWF feature. Is it possible that the content is so easy that every GWF can spec and play 100% DPS focussed and ignore defenses. Maybe the OPs make everyone immune to damage and running a dungeon is more like playing Diablo 3. Have you ever compared GWF/CW (both BIS)... really? By yourself? No. The troll mob is only hating and able to watch on tube. Laz is making good vids and he is a decent player but the resulting poostorm is annoying ^^. Good to see that there a are lot of good posts in this thread too. Some remember the up and down of the GWF in last modules.
There are like 20 truly good GWF's and then a whole lot of average ones and it feels like a waste speccing to buff average ones 90% of the time.
Thats the point! Most user here are posting things they maybe have heared or some fancy storys with puppets...( puppets are useless to test. Check self why!) and how OP the GWF is. Its like you said: Not all GWF making insane DPS cuzz they are GWFs. The GWFs with insane DPS got BIS gear and a huge knowledge about what they have to do. But ofc EVERYBODY is a pro if it gets to "NERF THE GWFS!" If you got an 4K TR and a 2,7K GWF can nearly beat you? Sry...but you make something wrong. Gear is not everything.
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isaintify1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 414Arc User
The only way I survive in runs with my GWF is my 4k Lifesteal + Negation + Tab. That is primarily all. Even with 4k Lifesteal I still only have 10% chance to heal. My DR in combat sits at around 30% in combat + my negation. But when I am out of combat I only have 13% DR. I have nearly 6kDefense which is fairly high for a GWF. If I wait for my tab to reach max yeah I can get 43%DR, but most GWFs do not wait for their tab to become full as we spam tab as soon as we have it.
The dps I deal out is high for a few reasons. The biggest reason is the broken Lostmauth 3 of set, and does not work as its supposed to. Do not nerf the class but the 3 of set for lostmauth. My character hits a 300k Lostmauth will hit for a 200k, while its supposed to be based off weapon damage. Its the same for every class. Not to mention just because a lot of people cannot out dps a GWF does not mean its impossible. I was out dps'd greatly by a Devoted Cleric doing infinite dailies with 40k Power. Ive also been out dpsed by a few CWs and TRs. There are certain builds and combos that people can do and do well, people just need to work at it and figure it out themselves instead of trying to wait and get someones build. Or trying to get other classes nerfed because they cannot out dps than them.
Each class has its own purpose and use, where it excels and where it does not. Hunter Rangers are amazing at dps, CC, and survive-ability. Control Wizards are insane at buffing, controlling, and dealing dps. Ive seen my dps increase 5x from having a single CW in the party. Scourge Warlocks dps is truly amazing despite the class being so broken. If the encounters and such were fixed they would be at top tier for damage. Same goes for the Hunter Ranger if its encounters and such were fixed it would be even better.
So why nerf a class when its not the GWFs fault? Tell Cryptic to FIX the broken classes instead of trying to force a nerf on the GWF.
No, nerfing is not the answer. But balance is kind of a must. If cryptic brings GWF down in dps, to the level of alle the other dps classes... well edemo would suck. But I do belive they need to bring the dps classes closer together.
Arguments about gwfs being weak two years ago or whatever, are kind of strange, the fact that they where not balanced but underpowered, dos not change the fact that gwfs are still out of balance and need changes.
About the idear that statistics in my post above, beeing subjective is correct. But at this point alle other counter arguments are even worse. "gwfs are fine! All other classes are just played by bad players who cry because they have no skill". Let us see some statistics that show us that the other dps classes are not hopelessly behind in dps, given same gear ilevel.
The worst argument around was "the CW buffed the dps of the GWF, that is why he had 3.5 times more dps than any of the 5 other dps in the fight.". Well the CW also buffed the other 4 dps classes...
No one want to be nerfed. But even if cryptic just buffs alle the other dps classes, the GWF would still lose relative power. The balance in this game is bad, really bad, a gf is not any where close to an op... And a tr/hr/cw is not close to a GWF. Problem is that most games that have balance problems have a fraction of the problems of this game, I have never befor seen a game where one dps class dos 4 times the dps of the other dps classes,it is just absurd. Imagine a game like wow, if a rouge did 400% of the dps a mage dos, there would be a change in a minute.
a SECUNDARY striker do far more damage than a non striker? yes. is fair? yes.
a Primary striker (gwf) do more damage than a secundary striker? yes is fair? yes. "oh, but hrs and trs"? long story short. hrs and trs do less damage than cws too, and, instead to complaing about that, they create threads like this one.
the main role of gwfs is damage. the main role of destroyers is damage, and not be a wizards HAMSTER like the others. or change that mentality or... wait for sws in the next module to cry even more.
I have never befor seen a game where one dps class dos 4 times the dps of the other dps classes,it is just absurd.
Now we got 4 times more dps from 2 times more dps. Let us wait. Maybe it getting to 8 times more dps.. Its worth to discuss about balancing in a game. No doubt about it. But you cant discuss about ingame balancing if you only read rumors or if you compare every class with GWFs like Lazalias. I didnt see 1 f.... argument how they will compansate if they nerf the GWFs. Not 1. All i read is ( sry...) whining posts and "NERF THEM!". I repeat it again: GWFs got only DPS skills. No really CC skills. No grp buffs ( WMS dont counts for the grp btw...). All he got is pure dps. So if you wanna nerf GWFs what do you have to compansate it? And the best joke ever: "Lost set is buggy".
How is stuns and prones not CC effects? Please enlighten me.
Ever tryed on a GWF? With the "great" controll abilitys ( ofc ALL gwfs got Valindras Set... ) of the GWFs mobs stunned for at least 10 seounds....not Try to CC a mob with an GWF and youll see.
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clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
You will find countless examples of insane GWF damage, you will not find the opposite examples - a GWF showing how badly beaten he was by a lower IL. I have not done a single edemo, PUG dungeon or private invite where a GWF did not top paingiver, I once saw a 4k TR coming close, but I don't believe that a 4k should struggle to beat a 2.5k GWF . Thats just my own anecdotal observation, but I am 100% certain that my observations match most other players observations, I am 100% certain that if every paingiver score was recorded that it would show the massive disparity in damage, do you believe the opposite holds true ?
But you really don't have to argue with me about it, you should argue with your fellow GWFs here, none of them have actually denied this is true, they defend it by saying that GWF is supposed by such a high damage dealer.
About that 4k tr, he was prolly a pvp one or just rly bad one. Plenty of them around. Talk with thorina, thats overpowered tr for u. And thats all what i have to said about tr's.
About cw. They r like OPs. Either top DPS or top controll, its up to u what u chose, but most of them takes dps, doing it totaly or partialy wrong. Around there r still top ones who can come rly close to my gwf, i just win simply coz im always first on pull, and trashes r always dead before they even join the fight, but on bosses they can go on pair with me (well only some of them).
Hr's? ehh hr's, cant say much here, still trying to fully understand this class, and before that i wont say a word.
SW is another story, there r monsters around who dont rly need fabled set or be damnation to simply crush every1 around them. Looking at u Fernu.
I just think u guys never met rly good dps examples of other classes. Will top gwf top any other class? well it will be weird if he dont. Top dps gwf takes out top cw or hr by x1.5 dmg (same skill, same il) But in that time trapper will also root, cw will drop IT and OF and stun they targets (and also have incrased dmg on targets immuned on controll) and TR will drop his SB (bear in mind that best TR just kill trashes with one whirlwind upon entering combat, u say its bad dps?)
I think nobody rly had balls to answer this one question, what will gwf become if his dps will be on pair with other classes? Who would take gwf if he cant drop Smoke Bomb, cant drop Opressive Force or root everything around him?
Most funny r those crying cw's, since they r PRIMARY controller, then dps, both of hr and tr r primary striker, but secondray controllers, and they controll powers (given its few only) last pretty long, dont u think? Sw has it worse out of them, but from what i seen "for some reason" they dont cry too much, at least the top ones.
That said gwf is striker/defender. When he goes defender (ty intimidation nerf) he is no more striker, and not rly a tank too, that for sure. When he is striker, he is 0 defender (just like cw, but even full dps cw still has OF and can freeze nicely) all what keeps gwf alive is hight LS, those temppoint we get r not affected by defense buff (partialy, deflect work pretty well, and some defense buffs still too) and usualy r eaten with 1, max 2 hits. Its more like tool to take tension lower for a sec or 2. Defender my HAMSTER (the animal, animal! im saying animal!).
That said, go out with paingiver and come back when u will have ACT with u. Most of the time all what paingiver says if who was first on trashes. Thats it. have u "observe" that?
Maybe its not coz those few ppl in each class is so good. Maybe, just maybe... u and the whole bunch is bad? Who know, not me, never met u. Lets dont change that, shall we?
(Sin)cerely Kain
Almost everything you have written is incorrect, I will only address some of the main falsities. - smoke bomb and rooting, useless for bosses and useless for trash mobs because they melt like butter now, so they are useless - the GWF is more survivable than most other classes, which means its more tanky than most other, which means it should not have such a big dps gap over others - On who is first on trash mobs, look at paingiver before and after the three boss fights on ELOL, they will all show the huge dps that GWF does over others - finally, you and all the GWFs that defend the GWF by saying "its skill" or "the others don't know how to play", you are really trying to say to everyone that all the others classes don't know how to play and that the GWF is not overpowered. I suppose you must be right, its truly a great coincidence that all the skilled players play GWF and all the idiots play the rest.
Almost everything you have written is incorrect, I will only address some of the main falsities. - smoke bomb and rooting, useless for bosses and useless for trash mobs because they melt like butter now, so they are useless - the GWF is more survivable than most other classes, which means its more tanky than most other, which means it should not have such a big dps gap over others - On who is first on trash mobs, look at paingiver before and after the three boss fights on ELOL, they will all show the huge dps that GWF does over others - finally, you and all the GWFs that defend the GWF by saying "its skill" or "the others don't know how to play", you are really trying to say to everyone that all the others classes don't know how to play and that the GWF is not overpowered. I suppose you must be right, its truly a great coincidence that all the skilled players play GWF and all the idiots play the rest.
Smokebomb ofc is useless at bosses. Like all the other nice CC gimmicks. I never saw a boss stunned after opression ^^. But for eCC a lot ( the most?) CWs using it. Dunno why. Heared rumors about some spikes If you talkin about T1 dungoens like elol...Sure they are melting. But not only with GWFs. You can melt them with every dps class. Its T1....easy mode.
A GWF isnt a tank at all. He must also avoid red circles. Event when he got unstoppable. Try to stay with unstoppable at blackdagger when he makes his front cleaves...youll see ( you can see it in ecc solo vid from lazalia too). And if you wanna be a "tanky" GWF you have to make a sentinel. For PVE its totaly worthless.
I saw a lot of TRs they are equal in gear with GWFS and i saw ACT ( maybe you should use it?) from both. Good TRs are great dps makers. Why? Last time i saw an TR in edemo that makes 5 mio more dps than our 4k GWF. Why? I think TRs are OP. NERF THEM!! NOW!!
If you say a GWF makes too much dps and GWFs are overpowered and you dont got a clue how a GWF works, yes, i will say learn to play. Your also one of theese that dont have any argument how you will compansate a nerf at GWFs. Only thing i read from you is: "GWF is to OP. Nerf him. Cant be that he makes such a huges dps."
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Almost everything you have written is incorrect, I will only address some of the main falsities. - smoke bomb and rooting, useless for bosses and useless for trash mobs because they melt like butter now, so they are useless - the GWF is more survivable than most other classes, which means its more tanky than most other, which means it should not have such a big dps gap over others - On who is first on trash mobs, look at paingiver before and after the three boss fights on ELOL, they will all show the huge dps that GWF does over others - finally, you and all the GWFs that defend the GWF by saying "its skill" or "the others don't know how to play", you are really trying to say to everyone that all the others classes don't know how to play and that the GWF is not overpowered. I suppose you must be right, its truly a great coincidence that all the skilled players play GWF and all the idiots play the rest.
Smokebomb ofc is useless at bosses. Like all the other nice CC gimmicks. I never saw a boss stunned after opression ^^. But for eCC a lot ( the most?) CWs using it. Dunno why. Heared rumors about some spikes If you talkin about T1 dungoens like elol...Sure they are melting. But not only with GWFs. You can melt them with every dps class. Its T1....easy mode.
A GWF isnt a tank at all. He must also avoid red circles. Event when he got unstoppable. Try to stay with unstoppable at blackdagger when he makes his front cleaves...youll see ( you can see it in ecc solo vid from lazalia too). And if you wanna be a "tanky" GWF you have to make a sentinel. For PVE its totaly worthless.
I saw a lot of TRs they are equal in gear with GWFS and i saw ACT ( maybe you should use it?) from both. Good TRs are great dps makers. Why? Last time i saw an TR in edemo that makes 5 mio more dps than our 4k GWF. Why? I think TRs are OP. NERF THEM!! NOW!!
If you say a GWF makes too much dps and GWFs are overpowered and you dont got a clue how a GWF works, yes, i will say learn to play. Your also one of theese that dont have any argument how you will compansate a nerf at GWFs. Only thing i read from you is: "GWF is to OP. Nerf him. Cant be that he makes such a huges dps."
The reason we use AoE CC abilities for boss fights though is they tick multiple times and hit more then once, for example icy terrain. This means that if they crit, they can proc storm spell multiple times. Storm spell is a major source of CW damage, like 30% of it, so maximizing the procs is important. single target abilities normally only hit once, so they can proc storm spell only once. *edited after rereading your post, see you were referring to oppressive force, sorry
Comments
But you really don't have to argue with me about it, you should argue with your fellow GWFs here, none of them have actually denied this is true, they defend it by saying that GWF is supposed by such a high damage dealer.
Eh you can at least assume that any CW in that is following Ironzerg's/beatannier's guide.
About cw. They r like OPs. Either top DPS or top controll, its up to u what u chose, but most of them takes dps, doing it totaly or partialy wrong. Around there r still top ones who can come rly close to my gwf, i just win simply coz im always first on pull, and trashes r always dead before they even join the fight, but on bosses they can go on pair with me (well only some of them).
Hr's? ehh hr's, cant say much here, still trying to fully understand this class, and before that i wont say a word.
SW is another story, there r monsters around who dont rly need fabled set or be damnation to simply crush every1 around them. Looking at u Fernu.
I just think u guys never met rly good dps examples of other classes. Will top gwf top any other class? well it will be weird if he dont. Top dps gwf takes out top cw or hr by x1.5 dmg (same skill, same il) But in that time trapper will also root, cw will drop IT and OF and stun they targets (and also have incrased dmg on targets immuned on controll) and TR will drop his SB (bear in mind that best TR just kill trashes with one whirlwind upon entering combat, u say its bad dps?)
I think nobody rly had balls to answer this one question, what will gwf become if his dps will be on pair with other classes? Who would take gwf if he cant drop Smoke Bomb, cant drop Opressive Force or root everything around him?
Most funny r those crying cw's, since they r PRIMARY controller, then dps, both of hr and tr r primary striker, but secondray controllers, and they controll powers (given its few only) last pretty long, dont u think? Sw has it worse out of them, but from what i seen "for some reason" they dont cry too much, at least the top ones.
That said gwf is striker/defender. When he goes defender (ty intimidation nerf) he is no more striker, and not rly a tank too, that for sure. When he is striker, he is 0 defender (just like cw, but even full dps cw still has OF and can freeze nicely) all what keeps gwf alive is hight LS, those temppoint we get r not affected by defense buff (partialy, deflect work pretty well, and some defense buffs still too) and usualy r eaten with 1, max 2 hits. Its more like tool to take tension lower for a sec or 2. Defender my HAMSTER (the animal, animal! im saying animal!).
That said, go out with paingiver and come back when u will have ACT with u. Most of the time all what paingiver says if who was first on trashes. Thats it. have u "observe" that?
Maybe its not coz those few ppl in each class is so good. Maybe, just maybe... u and the whole bunch is bad? Who know, not me, never met u. Lets dont change that, shall we?
(Sin)cerely
Kain
lol IKR controllers should just control all the CC immune/resistant mobs because it'll make a huge difference.
What about TRs? Are they just supposed to be worse strikers than GWF?
One of the best posts ever. I hope they dont listen to alle the "I was in kindergarden module 5 allmost a god with my CW. What happened? Why do i have CC?" crybabys. Its so boring....shame on you, guys/girls. You wanna nerf a class but you dont want give that class any to compensate? Think about it.
Some smart people try to explain the role of a GWF and are willing to discuss but... haters, trolls, infantile... A GWF suddenly got CC skills. Do I missed them? Or is this about PvP? There is a bit of CC... hmm let´s see ... will we find posts here that say GWF is overpowered in PvP too? Yes. No words. GWF suddenly got a nice dodge. What the heck. And Unstoppable. Yes its bugged (we are /&%$ since months for a bugfix in the bug report section) and yes it is the most powerful GWF feature.
Is it possible that the content is so easy that every GWF can spec and play 100% DPS focussed and ignore defenses. Maybe the OPs make everyone immune to damage and running a dungeon is more like playing Diablo 3. Have you ever compared GWF/CW (both BIS)... really? By yourself? No. The troll mob is only hating and able to watch on tube. Laz is making good vids and he is a decent player but the resulting poostorm is annoying ^^. Good to see that there a are lot of good posts in this thread too. Some remember the up and down of the GWF in last modules.
//Bellistor
Not all GWF making insane DPS cuzz they are GWFs. The GWFs with insane DPS got BIS gear and a huge knowledge about what they have to do. But ofc EVERYBODY is a pro if it gets to "NERF THE GWFS!"
If you got an 4K TR and a 2,7K GWF can nearly beat you? Sry...but you make something wrong. Gear is not everything.
The dps I deal out is high for a few reasons. The biggest reason is the broken Lostmauth 3 of set, and does not work as its supposed to. Do not nerf the class but the 3 of set for lostmauth. My character hits a 300k Lostmauth will hit for a 200k, while its supposed to be based off weapon damage. Its the same for every class. Not to mention just because a lot of people cannot out dps a GWF does not mean its impossible. I was out dps'd greatly by a Devoted Cleric doing infinite dailies with 40k Power. Ive also been out dpsed by a few CWs and TRs. There are certain builds and combos that people can do and do well, people just need to work at it and figure it out themselves instead of trying to wait and get someones build. Or trying to get other classes nerfed because they cannot out dps than them.
Each class has its own purpose and use, where it excels and where it does not. Hunter Rangers are amazing at dps, CC, and survive-ability. Control Wizards are insane at buffing, controlling, and dealing dps. Ive seen my dps increase 5x from having a single CW in the party. Scourge Warlocks dps is truly amazing despite the class being so broken. If the encounters and such were fixed they would be at top tier for damage. Same goes for the Hunter Ranger if its encounters and such were fixed it would be even better.
So why nerf a class when its not the GWFs fault? Tell Cryptic to FIX the broken classes instead of trying to force a nerf on the GWF.
Arguments about gwfs being weak two years ago or whatever, are kind of strange, the fact that they where not balanced but underpowered, dos not change the fact that gwfs are still out of balance and need changes.
About the idear that statistics in my post above, beeing subjective is correct. But at this point alle other counter arguments are even worse. "gwfs are fine! All other classes are just played by bad players who cry because they have no skill". Let us see some statistics that show us that the other dps classes are not hopelessly behind in dps, given same gear ilevel.
The worst argument around was "the CW buffed the dps of the GWF, that is why he had 3.5 times more dps than any of the 5 other dps in the fight.". Well the CW also buffed the other 4 dps classes...
No one want to be nerfed. But even if cryptic just buffs alle the other dps classes, the GWF would still lose relative power. The balance in this game is bad, really bad, a gf is not any where close to an op... And a tr/hr/cw is not close to a GWF. Problem is that most games that have balance problems have a fraction of the problems of this game, I have never befor seen a game where one dps class dos 4 times the dps of the other dps classes,it is just absurd. Imagine a game like wow, if a rouge did 400% of the dps a mage dos, there would be a change in a minute.
Mobile phones and autocorrect....
a SECUNDARY striker do far more damage than a non striker? yes. is fair? yes.
a Primary striker (gwf) do more damage than a secundary striker? yes is fair? yes. "oh, but hrs and trs"? long story short.
hrs and trs do less damage than cws too, and, instead to complaing about that, they create threads like this one.
the main role of gwfs is damage. the main role of destroyers is damage, and not be a wizards HAMSTER like the others. or change that mentality or... wait for sws in the next module to cry even more.
Its worth to discuss about balancing in a game. No doubt about it. But you cant discuss about ingame balancing if you only read rumors or if you compare every class with GWFs like Lazalias.
I didnt see 1 f.... argument how they will compansate if they nerf the GWFs. Not 1. All i read is ( sry...) whining posts and "NERF THEM!".
I repeat it again:
GWFs got only DPS skills. No really CC skills. No grp buffs ( WMS dont counts for the grp btw...). All he got is pure dps. So if you wanna nerf GWFs what do you have to compansate it?
And the best joke ever: "Lost set is buggy". Ever tryed on a GWF? With the "great" controll abilitys ( ofc ALL gwfs got Valindras Set...
Try to CC a mob with an GWF and youll see.
- smoke bomb and rooting, useless for bosses and useless for trash mobs because they melt like butter now, so they are useless
- the GWF is more survivable than most other classes, which means its more tanky than most other, which means it should not have such a big dps gap over others
- On who is first on trash mobs, look at paingiver before and after the three boss fights on ELOL, they will all show the huge dps that GWF does over others
- finally, you and all the GWFs that defend the GWF by saying "its skill" or "the others don't know how to play", you are really trying to say to everyone that all the others classes don't know how to play and that the GWF is not overpowered. I suppose you must be right, its truly a great coincidence that all the skilled players play GWF and all the idiots play the rest.
A GWF isnt a tank at all. He must also avoid red circles. Event when he got unstoppable. Try to stay with unstoppable at blackdagger when he makes his front cleaves...youll see ( you can see it in ecc solo vid from lazalia too). And if you wanna be a "tanky" GWF you have to make a sentinel. For PVE its totaly worthless.
I saw a lot of TRs they are equal in gear with GWFS and i saw ACT ( maybe you should use it?) from both. Good TRs are great dps makers. Why?
Last time i saw an TR in edemo that makes 5 mio more dps than our 4k GWF. Why? I think TRs are OP. NERF THEM!! NOW!!
If you say a GWF makes too much dps and GWFs are overpowered and you dont got a clue how a GWF works, yes, i will say learn to play. Your also one of theese that dont have any argument how you will compansate a nerf at GWFs. Only thing i read from you is:
"GWF is to OP. Nerf him. Cant be that he makes such a huges dps."
*edited after rereading your post, see you were referring to oppressive force, sorry