At the end of the day, I am fine with the situation until I see....."LF4M GWF's" you know, like mod 5 and CW's. That is when you know something is wrong.
+1
MY 3 favored chars are GF/GWF/OPP . I prefer always rainbow pt.
BTW i almost always run with at least 2 CW or 1 CW+1HR .
I find it humorous all of you people in here trying to justify the DPS the GWF has as not being OP....I have all 8 classes at 70...all of them at about the same IL and my HR, GWF, CW and SW have Lostmauth's set
While I'm not complaining mind you the GWF DPS is just plain insane...That said the SW DPS is pretty much on par with the GWF with 1 very noteable exception....survivability...
On a side note! we need a high gear Dungeon for the best players to try there skills at. I mean one that will only be a success if every one is high IL and the group makes no mistakes break into 3 sections and rewards based on completion of each section. This should be almost impossible to complete and every one should understand that up front and ther be no complains allowed about how hard it is, it was made to be. Then maybe every one would quit begging for nerfs because you would need all these classes at there best. with correct use of ap drains by monsters the Dungeons could be made tougher is just 1 example
love playing him but it is crazy that no matter how hard I try my CW cannot come close to DPS to my SW or my GWF even if i do not focus on control....
I will side with other posters in that other classes are supposed to serve other roles and not just DPS so while it is crazy high DPS it is fun to play and see the differences in ALL the classes
At the end of the day, I am fine with the situation until I see....."LF4M GWF's" you know, like mod 5 and CW's. That is when you know something is wrong.
+1
MY 3 favored chars are GF/GWF/OPP . I prefer always rainbow pt.
BTW i almost always run with at least 2 CW or 1 CW+1HR .
Same. Im always taking guildies who want go. I have OP and swap to him when there is no tank. Dont have problem if other players are undergeared or deal alot less DPS than they should (bad build or no exp etc). If someone care only about paingiver chart, dont res his teammates when they fall... then there is something wrong with this person.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
About demogorgon. IS the worst place to watch the paingiver is totally fake, because is 10 man raid means: 1: one pt with the best paingiver they have into the fray. 2: the top paingivers killing mobs next to paladin (aura of courage). 3: top paingivers had buffs maybe other poeple didnt have. 4: great weapon fighter if buff hiself with hidden daggers( maybe and battle fury) he will deal maximum damage even with locked skills. he can still do unstoppable, my alt is great weapon fighter and i like it this way is PURE DAMAGE dealer is the only thing can do.( i repeat battle fury if the pt has already mark in case of swordmaster).
HUnter ranger:? weak att wills ok but are not your strong point. LETS see. 1. ALL trees must play and meelee and ranged encounters. WHY ? with aspect of the serpent you increase with range encounter your next meelee encounter damage and vice versa. 2. if you are trapper you have the biting snares which is easy to have it permanent. damage increased by 30% control duration by 60% and ap gain 20% for 10 seconds. 3. as archery you have very strong range encounters and the prey. ( well for one thing i dont agree prey should be aoe not single target). 3. as combat you have strong meelee encounters.
WELL trapper vs destroyer.
TRAPPER : CONTROL fox cunning and damage. great weapon fighter :damage. ( battle fury maybe as buff:P) fairly great weapon fighter has more damage.
nerf lostmauth set and all will be fine because great weapon fighter buffs the lostmauth hit damage more than other classes.
love playing him but it is crazy that no matter how hard I try my CW cannot come close to DPS to my SW or my GWF even if i do not focus on control....
I will side with other posters in that other classes are supposed to serve other roles and not just DPS so while it is crazy high DPS it is fun to play and see the differences in ALL the classes
Read Pando's post. Read and start thinking. CW isnt meant to be striker class at 1st. SWs, GWFs, and TRs are. HR's Archer tree is just f**** and needs rework. About useless TRs. I have met few great TRs who outdps me and many other GWFs in tia or edemo. Thing is most TRs wanna be good PvP-wise (when they are top players). Cant be best in both. Exe has less stealth and is bound to one-shot glass cannon build, while sabo with high recovery laughs at you.
I dont see many "LFcc" or "LFpartbuff", when I stand around in PE. I see "LFtank","LFhealer" and lastly "LFdps". There is one healer class, DC and a wannabe healer class OP, there is one tank OP and the wannabe GF... Now there are two dps classes, GWF and Puppet SW... Then ofc there are 3 classes that you dont need in a group, TR, HR and CW.
The idear of a balance based on what you bring to a group is great, but cc is not needed at the current meta. A CW brings some group buffs that help on overall dps, but not close to as much as a GWF will bring. The top guide for CW on this forum is even called "Death is the best crowdcontrol". A GWF has about 3to4 times as much dps as a equal iLevel CW.
So in short, if you wanna run a faster dungeon, pick a group of one OP, maybe one DC and then 3 or 4 GWF.
No dont nerf the gwf, fix the other 3 "dps" classes.
Lastly, i dont see all that many videos of people soloing T2 that are not playing a GWF... I would like to see a CW solo eTOS or a HR... Until then, yes i do think the GWF is overpowerd in contrast.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
A GWFs need incoming damage/fights for unstoppable and need to fight so close as he can in trash/Bossfights to maximize his dps. So he must move A LOT to avoid red zones if he got no unstoppable ready and in the meantime when the GWF is runnig in circles the rest can make dps/CC. I dont think you know that much about GWFs, dont you? A GWF can only make really good DPS when he usese his selfbuffs like unstoppable/daggers/daring shout/Battle fury. If you use theese skills wrong and you dont have a critbuild you do same dps as a CW/HR/TR. Lemme know when your ready to talk serious about GWFs. Thx a lot.
The gwf is not the only to move in order to escape red zone, CW HR TR have too.... But he is one of the few classes that can stay in.
Only if he activates unstoppable. And since our cry babys got theyre perm bubble OP, no one avoids red zones and GWFs cant get unstoppable. Sry...i leave thes thred now.
@blinxon Don't you see something strange here? GWF without instopable making as much DPS that other classes ? Don't be blinded please, and let's have a real discussion with arguments.
Every GWF playing other classes said that GWF is much more powerful than other classes, and i repeat again, it's due to their monstruous weapon damage + lostmauth.
Lets talk about CWs soloing CN. Or TR soloing CN. Lazalia is BiS SM (i havent seen ANY IV soiloing dungeon). And he can obtain anything he wants in this game. Tfey, tnega, azures and... guess what, he was able to solo Traven only thanks to steel defense combined with high ap generation (snail).
Saw some duo vids. GWF, SW, CW and... OP. Perma bubble and go.
love playing him but it is crazy that no matter how hard I try my CW cannot come close to DPS to my SW or my GWF even if i do not focus on control....
I will side with other posters in that other classes are supposed to serve other roles and not just DPS so while it is crazy high DPS it is fun to play and see the differences in ALL the classes
Read Pando's post. Read and start thinking. CW isnt meant to be striker class at 1st. SWs, GWFs, and TRs are. HR's Archer tree is just f**** and needs rework. About useless TRs. I have met few great TRs who outdps me and many other GWFs in tia or edemo. Thing is most TRs wanna be good PvP-wise (when they are top players). Cant be best in both. Exe has less stealth and is bound to one-shot glass cannon build, while sabo with high recovery laughs at you.
Oh boy, here comes the dumb "CW is a controller and GWF is a primary striker" arguments. So what exactly are controllers supposed to do that makes that useful enough to take over a GWF? What's that you say? Nothing? Oh, that's what I thought.
They can't even create a useful role for controllers because anything that would make them anywhere near as useful as a GWF would just let you faceroll dungeons while mobs/bosses stand still and do nothing.
Oh boy, here comes the dumb "CW is a controller and GWF is a primary striker" arguments. So what exactly are controllers supposed to do that makes that useful enough to take over a GWF? What's that you say? Nothing? Oh, that's what I thought.
Roles are roles and you can cry about nerfs, nothing change fact strikers will deal more damage than your CW. I want to see SW buffed even more and then you coming there cry for nerf. Im runing dungeons and edemo with CWs in the party and YES controllers are needed. Not all GWFs are 4k Lazalia, and not all run with OP perma bubble.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
love playing him but it is crazy that no matter how hard I try my CW cannot come close to DPS to my SW or my GWF even if i do not focus on control....
I will side with other posters in that other classes are supposed to serve other roles and not just DPS so while it is crazy high DPS it is fun to play and see the differences in ALL the classes
Read Pando's post. Read and start thinking. CW isnt meant to be striker class at 1st. SWs, GWFs, and TRs are. HR's Archer tree is just f**** and needs rework. About useless TRs. I have met few great TRs who outdps me and many other GWFs in tia or edemo. Thing is most TRs wanna be good PvP-wise (when they are top players). Cant be best in both. Exe has less stealth and is bound to one-shot glass cannon build, while sabo with high recovery laughs at you.
Oh boy, here comes the dumb "CW is a controller and GWF is a primary striker" arguments. So what exactly are controllers supposed to do that makes that useful enough to take over a GWF? What's that you say? Nothing? Oh, that's what I thought.
They can't even create a useful role for controllers because anything that would make them anywhere near as useful as a GWF would just let you faceroll dungeons while mobs/bosses stand still and do nothing.
The "C" in "CW" stands for control remember. You can control and do damage. And as one mentioned earlier, control is no more important in this game, that's why CW build are DPS oriented. With a little control and mass damage, you can wipe everything.
I'd just like to comment on a post someone made about Flanking Maneuvers. There is a 30s ICD per mob on this skill, so once a mob is proned from Flanking Maneuvers i can't be proned from FM again for 30s, it gets a buff icon showing this. So GWF can't actually use this to control reliably. Also of note is this, FM in a t2 dungeon causes a mob to fall over prone, and then get right back up again, most times there is just a flicker while you see the mob being the "controlled" state before it is back standing and reactivating the attack it was going to use. Basically FM is a unreliable interrupt and in no way is a form of extensive control like any HR spec using a couple of rooting skills, any CW with icy terrain, SW using hadar's grasp, OP has Banishment, DC has a number of stuns that last longer then FM (and any other stun skills that a gwf has)
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Oh boy, here comes the dumb "CW is a controller and GWF is a primary striker" arguments. So what exactly are controllers supposed to do that makes that useful enough to take over a GWF? What's that you say? Nothing? Oh, that's what I thought.
Roles are roles and you can cry about nerfs, nothing change fact strikers will deal more damage than your CW. I want to see SW buffed even more and then you coming there cry for nerf. Im runing dungeons and edemo with CWs in the party and YES controllers are needed. Not all GWFs are 4k Lazalia, and not all run with OP perma bubble.
See, this is the thing, I didn't say anything about CWs needing to deal remotely as much damage as a GWF. I asked what role they could perform that would justify taking them instead of a GWF. You definitely do not need them in dungeons. You could take them for the first phase of eDemo, but they're really not necessary at all and GWFs are better for the third phase anyways.
CC would have to become relevant to the point that not having a CW or HR in a party would be like not taking an OP/DC and you know that is never going to happen.
Not sure why you brought up Lazalia because it's completely irrelevant to my point. A 2.5k GWF over-performs more than enough to be relevant to what I was discussing.
The gwf is not the only to move in order to escape red zone, CW HR TR have too.... But he is one of the few classes that can stay in.
Yeah, try to stay into the red zones without a DC/OP protecting you, in T2 dungeons. Even Lazalia at 4k iLvL in all his solo videos have to avoid most red zones.
All classes except true tanks have to avoid red zones, right now. GWF is no exception so please stop trying to make GWFs look like tanks when they are not.
Or post a video of you on a GWF tanking, for example, Lostmauth red zones, eLoL scorpions red zones, T2 mobs red zones, without any protection. Saying GWFs can stay in red zones in pure BS. You see Lazalia taking a bath in Traven red zones? Nope. He is costantly avoiding them.
Constantly. Dodging. Red. Zones. And even normal attacks, you see, take away a lot of his HPs. He is constantly moving and dodging. Looks like he is "tanking" to you? He survives cause he kills fast and LS a lot. Sure not because he can take a bath in red areas or stand still and tank the hits.
Inside a DC Empowered AS, or an OP bubble, any class can take on red areas. But without protection no class except GF/OP can take the hit.
Also: a ranged class (HR/CW/SW) is usually far from most red areas, so sorry but the times these classes have to move to avoid a red area are much less compared to a full melee class fighting inside a group of mobs or near a boss, depending on the situation and fight. Expecially if the group got a good tank that can keep aggro. In that case a ranged class is far and safe most of the time, while a melee fighter is close to the mobs/ boss, where the tank is, and is exposed to AoE red zones much more.
Still, we do not see not even the best PvE GWF is solo build, taking on red zones. And you come here saying that the class can just sit inside them?
Making more "challenging" dungeons by introducing mobs that oneshot everyone but the tank and have 100000000M hp is a terrible way to make harder content. There are a lot of stuff that can be used to allow mobs to destroy "BIS" ez mode rampages.
Why not use red wizard evokers to steal AP enough to disallow any daily (Counter OP bubble) and need a CC to stop it. Maybe illusionists can debuff a dps crit chance and fully ignore the tank, they aren't stupid after all. Not follow the same path of stupid Hexers that oneshot anyone who isn't a tank if they roll a crit, while still having more hp than most other mobs.
And stop telegraphing everything that can deal damage with a red zone. Just give it an animation the players should be careful about (Like Syndrith's sharpnel spell).
Lifesteal is hilariously broken and needs some serious rework (If nothing instakills me I am back to full hp instantly, Am sure very high LS% groups don't even need a healer for their healing!)
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
Besides, DPS is just one part of the game, HRs and CWs can control really well
Can we dispel the myth right here and now? Only ONE of the 3 HR trees provides CC and that is Trapper. Many choose to play the other 2 trees, myself included. What is sad, though, is that a Trapper easily out-dps's Archers and Combat HRs, and with all that CC to boot!
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What about changing hidden daggers to 5% buff per level (down from 10) and Destroyer's purpose to 4% per stack (down from 5), would that be too much of a nerf?
I'm pretty sure changing just those 2 would be enough to tone down GWF's dps to a more reallistic level.
Problem is dungeon design not striker's damage. In T2 my guildie, similar geared CW, brings nice CC so we not wipe without bubble, she also deal nice DPS compared to some other classes who are mant to be major strikers but took non-DPS tree. Usually she is 2nd or 3rd in paingiver chart. IS this bad? No. There are always someone who deal more DPS than others. Is this making others obsolete? Nope. They are still contribute to run, more or less. But if you want be elitist and take only GWFs and SWs, then gg. Guild is now important part of the game, but guild is not only top dps fotm classes. I still havent see lf4m gwf/sw in lfg or zerg channel. Nah.
Problem is dungeon design not striker's damage. In T2 my guildie, similar geared CW, brings nice CC so we not wipe without bubble, she also deal nice DPS compared to some other classes who are mant to be major strikers but took non-DPS tree. Usually she is 2nd or 3rd in paingiver chart. IS this bad? No. There are always someone who deal more DPS than others. Is this making others obsolete? Nope. They are still contribute to run, more or less. But if you want be elitist and take only GWFs and SWs, then gg. Guild is now important part of the game, but guild is not only top dps fotm classes. I still havent see lf4m gwf/sw in lfg or zerg channel. Nah.
Only because the current content doesn't require it. When we have content that actually requires that much DPS you'll see lf3m GWF +1 OP.
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
I'd just like to comment on a post someone made about Flanking Maneuvers. There is a 30s ICD per mob on this skill, so once a mob is proned from Flanking Maneuvers i can't be proned from FM again for 30s, it gets a buff icon showing this. So GWF can't actually use this to control reliably. Also of note is this, FM in a t2 dungeon causes a mob to fall over prone, and then get right back up again, most times there is just a flicker while you see the mob being the "controlled" state before it is back standing and reactivating the attack it was going to use. Basically FM is a unreliable interrupt and in no way is a form of extensive control like any HR spec using a couple of rooting skills, any CW with icy terrain, SW using hadar's grasp, OP has Banishment, DC has a number of stuns that last longer then FM (and any other stun skills that a gwf has)
Noted. I have no experience in T2 dungeons with GWF (not geared comfortably enough) so didn't know FM was so ineffective there. Also I didn't know about the ICD so my bad. I still seem to prone lots of mobs in lairs and soloing.
Now about the comment on "any HR spec using a couple of rooting skills" to provide "extensive control". Noooooooope. The roots on Constricting, Binding and Hindering Shots are almost unnoticeable they last so short. Once again, only a Trapper can pull off any form of CC, not the HR class as a whole.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
At the end of the day, a proper group for speed running dungeons will always want 1 dc, 1 CW and 1 GF. This is for Steal time on tab, into the frey and then righteous dc damage buffs. True, outside of proper speed run groups, you might see variety die, but for speeding through content in the most efficient way possible and for saving as much time as possible, the key isn't to stack GWF's, its to stack movement speed buffs. yes, there might be room for 2 GWF's in there, but are they 100% necessary? no. Yesterday I did a 9 min 38 sec eGWD with chained steal time on tab with the group running synchronized. We didn't run with any GWF's and whilst it might have made the boss clear time faster, it definitely isn't necessary. It is at that point where people are once again trying to work out how much time they can save whilst beating dungeons, rather then how to beat the dungeon at all. Do GWF's do more damage then us CWs? Most certainly. Does it matter? not really. They don't bring anything to the table for efficient speed runs, other then dps, so they will never be able to take all 5 party slots.
Problem is dungeon design not striker's damage. In T2 my guildie, similar geared CW, brings nice CC so we not wipe without bubble, she also deal nice DPS compared to some other classes who are mant to be major strikers but took non-DPS tree. Usually she is 2nd or 3rd in paingiver chart. IS this bad? No. There are always someone who deal more DPS than others. Is this making others obsolete? Nope. They are still contribute to run, more or less. But if you want be elitist and take only GWFs and SWs, then gg. Guild is now important part of the game, but guild is not only top dps fotm classes. I still havent see lf4m gwf/sw in lfg or zerg channel. Nah.
Only because the current content doesn't require it. When we have content that actually requires that much DPS you'll see lf3m GWF +1 OP.
What contest will require more DPS? Its always harder at the begining and for less geared toons. Then its just melting, no matter what class is current fotm. Remember old 5 cws parties? I remember SP when GF was needed, then people got gear and no one need tank. Then come pure DPS parties, with Cws singu-repel and at the end no one even bother about pushing mobs. All fought near boss melting both, boss and mobs. Mostly it was 3+ CWs. That was right?
OP nerf incoming, means no easy mode. Nerfing bubble will bring CC even more desired. I know some GWFs with not bad gear dealing very little DPS.
I think it's in the interest of the game to change the dps-food-chain every 2-3 mods - it brings new builds, new point of view, humbleness to some classes, ....
My main, a CW, was too good for too many mods; the GWF had 3 mods he could go crazy - I think that is enough and I hope his time will be over after mod 8 and another class gets the "dps spotlight" - a new class maybe or the quite likeable archery HR, ...
No dont nerf the gwf, fix the other 3 "dps" classes.
You got it slick. It's a sad state of affairs when there are multiple classes that literally nobody cares about in group content. Oh yo, don't want to hear about "classes that can solo CN" either. It's been a year. CN is gone. Who knows what it will be if it ever comes back but even if a particular character can solo a dungeon, that says NOTHING about the class. Every class should have a role but we got at least 3 that have none because one class fills the role so well that they aren't necessary. That's a problem and it should be fixed.
Only because the current content doesn't require it. When we have content that actually requires that much DPS you'll see lf3m GWF +1 OP.
So, basically, you and others want GWF nerfed because current paladins and content makes CC not much useful. Nope. Expecially considering that a OP balancing is planned and new dungeons will come, hopefully with higher difficulty and iLvL required. Right now if you run a T2 with normal 2.5k guys and DC with no Paladin, you already will find out that CC is pretty useful. When we'll have content that requires much more DPS, don't you think it will also require more CC cause the mobs will hit harder? And if it's the paladin that makes the team invulnerable, don't you think the issue is there?
Get a clue guys. You complain about other PvE aspects and then ask for a huge nerf to a DPS class. Basically: current PvE makes my CC useless, so please nerf GWFs.
I think it's in the interest of the game to change the dps-food-chain every 2-3 mods - it brings new builds, new point of view, humbleness to some classes, ....
My main, a CW, was too good for too many mods; the GWF had 3 mods he could go crazy - I think that is enough and I hope his time will be over after mod 8 and another class gets the "dps spotlight" - a new class maybe or the quite likeable archery HR, ...
What you need is to just freakin' look at the builds, take the DPS-only builds and make them all output the same amount of damage. Then evaluate other builds, see what they bring and create a PvE environment that makes use of every aspect. Right now CC is left out because of OPs and outgeared content. Period. And that's what a CC build must ask to fix. Other than that, the DPS-only builds should be:
SW HB Fury HR stormwarden Archery or combat HR TR executioner CW Master of Flame (if they lose all the CC capabilities, else they chould be a bit behind in DPS, depending on how much CC they lose).
It's pure logic. Can you guys understand that much? It's not difficult. If
Class/Build #1= CC+DPS and Class/Build #2= DPS
You can't ask for the #1 to output the same, or close to, #2 DPS.
Comments
MY 3 favored chars are GF/GWF/OPP .
I prefer always rainbow pt.
BTW i almost always run with at least 2 CW or 1 CW+1HR .
While I'm not complaining mind you the GWF DPS is just plain insane...That said the SW DPS is pretty much on par with the GWF with 1 very noteable exception....survivability...
My main is my CW and I
.
ara
I will side with other posters in that other classes are supposed to serve other roles and not just DPS so while it is crazy high DPS it is fun to play and see the differences in ALL the classes
1: one pt with the best paingiver they have into the fray.
2: the top paingivers killing mobs next to paladin (aura of courage).
3: top paingivers had buffs maybe other poeple didnt have.
4: great weapon fighter if buff hiself with hidden daggers( maybe and battle fury) he will deal maximum damage even with locked skills. he can still do unstoppable, my alt is great weapon fighter and i like it this way is PURE DAMAGE dealer is the only thing can do.( i repeat battle fury if the pt has already mark in case of swordmaster).
HUnter ranger:? weak att wills ok but are not your strong point. LETS see.
1. ALL trees must play and meelee and ranged encounters. WHY ? with aspect of the serpent you increase with range encounter your next meelee encounter damage and vice versa.
2. if you are trapper you have the biting snares which is easy to have it permanent. damage increased by 30% control duration by 60% and ap gain 20% for 10 seconds.
3. as archery you have very strong range encounters and the prey. ( well for one thing i dont agree prey should be aoe not single target).
3. as combat you have strong meelee encounters.
WELL trapper vs destroyer.
TRAPPER : CONTROL fox cunning and damage.
great weapon fighter :damage. ( battle fury maybe as buff:P)
fairly great weapon fighter has more damage.
nerf lostmauth set and all will be fine because great weapon fighter buffs the lostmauth hit damage more than other classes.
The idear of a balance based on what you bring to a group is great, but cc is not needed at the current meta. A CW brings some group buffs that help on overall dps, but not close to as much as a GWF will bring. The top guide for CW on this forum is even called "Death is the best crowdcontrol". A GWF has about 3to4 times as much dps as a equal iLevel CW.
So in short, if you wanna run a faster dungeon, pick a group of one OP, maybe one DC and then 3 or 4 GWF.
No dont nerf the gwf, fix the other 3 "dps" classes.
Lastly, i dont see all that many videos of people soloing T2 that are not playing a GWF... I would like to see a CW solo eTOS or a HR... Until then, yes i do think the GWF is overpowerd in contrast.
Don't be blinded please, and let's have a real discussion with arguments.
Every GWF playing other classes said that GWF is much more powerful than other classes, and i repeat again, it's due to their monstruous weapon damage + lostmauth.
Saw some duo vids. GWF, SW, CW and... OP. Perma bubble and go.
They can't even create a useful role for controllers because anything that would make them anywhere near as useful as a GWF would just let you faceroll dungeons while mobs/bosses stand still and do nothing.
Also of note is this, FM in a t2 dungeon causes a mob to fall over prone, and then get right back up again, most times there is just a flicker while you see the mob being the "controlled" state before it is back standing and reactivating the attack it was going to use. Basically FM is a unreliable interrupt and in no way is a form of extensive control like any HR spec using a couple of rooting skills, any CW with icy terrain, SW using hadar's grasp, OP has Banishment, DC has a number of stuns that last longer then FM (and any other stun skills that a gwf has)
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CC would have to become relevant to the point that not having a CW or HR in a party would be like not taking an OP/DC and you know that is never going to happen.
Not sure why you brought up Lazalia because it's completely irrelevant to my point. A 2.5k GWF over-performs more than enough to be relevant to what I was discussing.
Even Lazalia at 4k iLvL in all his solo videos have to avoid most red zones.
All classes except true tanks have to avoid red zones, right now. GWF is no exception so please stop trying to make GWFs look like tanks when they are not.
Or post a video of you on a GWF tanking, for example, Lostmauth red zones, eLoL scorpions red zones, T2 mobs red zones, without any protection.
Saying GWFs can stay in red zones in pure BS. You see Lazalia taking a bath in Traven red zones? Nope. He is costantly avoiding them.
Scorpions in a T1 dungeon:
Solo eToS:
Constantly. Dodging. Red. Zones.
And even normal attacks, you see, take away a lot of his HPs. He is constantly moving and dodging. Looks like he is "tanking" to you? He survives cause he kills fast and LS a lot. Sure not because he can take a bath in red areas or stand still and tank the hits.
Inside a DC Empowered AS, or an OP bubble, any class can take on red areas. But without protection no class except GF/OP can take the hit.
Also: a ranged class (HR/CW/SW) is usually far from most red areas, so sorry but the times these classes have to move to avoid a red area are much less compared to a full melee class fighting inside a group of mobs or near a boss, depending on the situation and fight. Expecially if the group got a good tank that can keep aggro. In that case a ranged class is far and safe most of the time, while a melee fighter is close to the mobs/ boss, where the tank is, and is exposed to AoE red zones much more.
Still, we do not see not even the best PvE GWF is solo build, taking on red zones. And you come here saying that the class can just sit inside them?
Please, be serious.
.
Why not use red wizard evokers to steal AP enough to disallow any daily (Counter OP bubble) and need a CC to stop it. Maybe illusionists can debuff a dps crit chance and fully ignore the tank, they aren't stupid after all. Not follow the same path of stupid Hexers that oneshot anyone who isn't a tank if they roll a crit, while still having more hp than most other mobs.
And stop telegraphing everything that can deal damage with a red zone. Just give it an animation the players should be careful about (Like Syndrith's sharpnel spell).
Lifesteal is hilariously broken and needs some serious rework (If nothing instakills me I am back to full hp instantly, Am sure very high LS% groups don't even need a healer for their healing!)
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I'm pretty sure changing just those 2 would be enough to tone down GWF's dps to a more reallistic level.
Now about the comment on "any HR spec using a couple of rooting skills" to provide "extensive control". Noooooooope. The roots on Constricting, Binding and Hindering Shots are almost unnoticeable they last so short. Once again, only a Trapper can pull off any form of CC, not the HR class as a whole.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
OP nerf incoming, means no easy mode. Nerfing bubble will bring CC even more desired. I know some GWFs with not bad gear dealing very little DPS.
My main, a CW, was too good for too many mods; the GWF had 3 mods he could go crazy - I think that is enough and I hope his time will be over after mod 8 and another class gets the "dps spotlight" - a new class maybe or the quite likeable archery HR, ...
Nope.
Expecially considering that a OP balancing is planned and new dungeons will come, hopefully with higher difficulty and iLvL required.
Right now if you run a T2 with normal 2.5k guys and DC with no Paladin, you already will find out that CC is pretty useful.
When we'll have content that requires much more DPS, don't you think it will also require more CC cause the mobs will hit harder?
And if it's the paladin that makes the team invulnerable, don't you think the issue is there?
Get a clue guys. You complain about other PvE aspects and then ask for a huge nerf to a DPS class. Basically: current PvE makes my CC useless, so please nerf GWFs.
Makes sense.
Then evaluate other builds, see what they bring and create a PvE environment that makes use of every aspect. Right now CC is left out because of OPs and outgeared content. Period. And that's what a CC build must ask to fix.
Other than that, the DPS-only builds should be:
SW HB Fury
HR stormwarden Archery or combat HR
TR executioner
CW Master of Flame (if they lose all the CC capabilities, else they chould be a bit behind in DPS, depending on how much CC they lose).
It's pure logic. Can you guys understand that much? It's not difficult.
If
Class/Build #1= CC+DPS
and
Class/Build #2= DPS
You can't ask for the #1 to output the same, or close to, #2 DPS.