OKKKK...so get technical then. Go with green.
Just in green you can get 6k+1.5k+4.8k=12.3k with 8hr x6 task slots left over.
There are tasks @ 8h 800AD so 3x800= 2.4k more
And 400AD 3x400=1.2kmore
So all green assets i 24 you can get:
12.3k+2.4k+1.2k=15,900AD
This disallows Rare tasks which if used would in 24hr push it back up to over 24k
(there are some 1.6k/14h ones, some 1.5k/12h ones) and some 1.2k/12h non-rares)
But you have still missed the point. The DROPS are worth much more than the AD earned. Just the base green drops are L4-5 RP items. Get a blue or purple in there and you are sitting sweet.
Before you go buying any leadership assets, be sure to work out the payback period based on your expected daily routine because it often is not worth it.
You pay an extra 40K AD for a green man-at-arms compared with a footman and that will do tasks 10% faster but that is only useful of you are logging on at a suitable time. I found that the normal footmen suited me just as well. The only exception is the task that takes 1 full day. I slip later and later with that one until I end up skipping one. But even then it is hard to justify the expensive assets.
If you take Leadership proffession in to consideration you can get 24k AD with just it (not even invoking needed) though you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Now THAT is interesting.
Please do me the favor, quspiv, and do me the sums, how one can make 24k with only green Men-at-Arms...
BTW, this should better include the often somewhat time-consuming tasks to gather the ressources.
...until then, I call this a bull____.
He didn't say he was doing it with green men at arms.[...]
[...] you will need lvl25 prof + some uncommon assets. Then you can get 24k AD per day with just 5min of playing.
Uncommon = Green Blue = Rare Purple = Epic
...throughout the whole game.
Gee, I'm running that stuff since almost two years, and with 3 purple Heroes and 6 Green Men@Arms per char. Was maybe the one who injected that 16h/1.5 = 10h40 in the Mod 6 preview forums, and without timing my life all around my LShip I tend to come out at ca. 22k/char unless I get lucky with rare tasks. WITH 3k from invokes, all done ingame. Just thought I overlooked something and thought I'd ask so I might learn what.
Guess what I learned...
On an discussion furthering note: When you look at the time invested in gathering the AD to purchase the Heroes (ca. 250k-350k AD on average because I started using them early...), and the actual time needed for setting up and running all that mumbo-jumbo, the daily DD hour ToS-rush comes out almost equal in terms of revenue, and absolutely so in the short term:
ToS run: Necessary investment when your char gets 55: ca. 10-20k for rare Level-appropriate gear. 10-15 minutes of gameplay => 6k. Key for free.
The LShip mint has to be established (Stuff must be earned and then bought, LShip's gotta get leveled, either in 3 months with little income, or in 5-6 months with low-ish income) and worked (10-15 minutes a day for 5 logins and assigning - invocation! - depending on ISP speed and internet weather), the first half year or so you earn back your investment, and only then you start generating profit with administrative work.
It's actually in the game since 1st edn. AD&D at least - my ancient 1983 DM's Guide IIRC has a several pages long section pertaining to that, methinks, under the "Henchmen and Hirelings" Chapter. (Too lazy to filch the attic...)
I honestly cannot understand why this draws so much aggro - when all the while reaping millions off players buy buying all RP when the news of 2x RP breaks, and immediately offering it again on AH for two to three times the paid price is totally OK. IMHO the latter is cheap and cheesy...
On the other hand, using scripts to work that AD mill... ...is another story - and absorutry not very honorabru...
Post edited by suicidalgodot on
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revan06100Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 205Arc User
People who got pissed are mostly f2p scrubs who abused the poor design to get everything for free without even leaving the PE. Leadership should've never been in the gateway nor reward AD.
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
That is the most stupid thing i've ever heard, if you wanna pay 200 quid a month to get a decent gear, go on, no one is gonna stop you...
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
As a person who "doesn't play the game" I can certainly see why leadership tasks might be problematic in the sense that the dev team wants players to "play the game"
But saying that that's the "legit way" to play is just abject nonsense, and the elitism that comes from that position is sickening.
I'd still like to see some details on
+ which 3 professions they level to 20 for 1 extra slot
+ which rank 3 result they made, and what they used to get it for 1 extra slot
i mean, everyone is writing about having 9 full slots running 24/7, and i'd like to know exactly how they did that...
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
Just remove AD from all tasks and give us back leadership in gateway. I need to start my RP tasks now!!!!!
Could work. Very limited AD for a lot of people. Maybe bind RP items on pickup.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,233Arc User
If the only way to be legit is to play the game and do not use Leadership, Leadership should not be part of the game. Since it is part of the game, it is legit. Everybody can play his own RPG. One can RPG a merchant if he wishes.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,233Arc User
I'd still like to see some details on
+ which 3 professions they level to 20 for 1 extra slot
+ which rank 3 result they made, and what they used to get it for 1 extra slot
i mean, everyone is writing about having 9 full slots running 24/7, and i'd like to know exactly how they did that...
For me,
leadership, alchemy, jewelcrafting.
Alchemy with grandmaster, master. -> fast
Alchemy with 3 purple tools. -> fast
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
To prevent botting, it'd be best to make the RP tasks Bind on Pickup.
Yes, bound to character not account. The game making leadership armies a thing was a mistake to begin with.
But if they did all that, they could probably reduce the time of the tasks, or increase the rewards (or both).
Wrong. They need to make the game more fun and not "require" bots or bot armies rather than do more bind on character/account <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Every change they have made so far, to combat bots has ONLY had a detrimental impact on legitimate players. Bots don't care about grind and inconvenience, only real players do.
So I just came back to the game and found this. Thought it was a bug at first. Guess not. Anyways here's my take on it for whatever good it will do.
1) Stopping it on the gateway won't stop bots. The bots are just going to go thru the game client now. The point of the bot is to do it when you aren't there, That means that any added inconvenience is ignored by a bot once they program in a new routine.
2) The UI interface is horrible in game compared to the gateway. You can do your tasks in half the time on the gateway compared to ingame because of the back button and also because of how the tasks are arranged. On the gateway the top of the list is the rares followed by your highest level tasks. In game it's rares followed by the lowest leveled tasks. That's a lot of extra scrolling that bots don't care about but humans do. Just fixing that will take a lot of the "grrr grumble grumble" factor out of doing tasks in game.
3) How sure are you that it's bots on the gateway? A lot of people run alt armies for leadership. Not everyone bots. I never have and never will. I'm going to guess there is a good percentage of people like me. I don't know how you could be sure that it's a bot on the webpage to be honest.
4) This is just my opinion here but the better action to take would be bans. Lets say you have a way to tell for the gateway if it's a bot. Maybe some metrics about the same actions every x amount of time. I don't know. Simply perma ban the account at that point. Give a way to fight it, thru customer support, but if you're not removing botters they're just going to go to the next best thing, it won't actually solve anything to make it more inconvenient.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
On the gateway the top of the list is the rares followed by your highest level tasks. In game it's rares followed by the lowest leveled tasks.
You're not wrong about a lot of things, but FYI these are controlled by your personal settings ("sort by" dropdown). Gateway UI is still miles better though, also for things like assigning extra assets to a task.
Gateway also allows you to assign each profession individual sorting rules, whereas the game has a global one.
1) Stopping it on the gateway won't stop bots. The bots are just going to go thru the game client now.
Supposedly, Cryptic has data that shows this has not happened. Now... of course, that means they apparently have data that shows bots from not-bots, which of course raises the questions of why there are bots at all if they can isolate them well enough to say with certainty that those bots aren't botting leadership... I think the reality is that bots were already botting both. However, because the it was a lot easier to bot the gateway without much risk (whereas Gameclient bots are risky and tend to do nasty things like broadcast your login to IRC channels...), lots of average joe players did it - now they don't. The real botters were and still are hard at it in-game, and this change didn't do anything about that and it wasn't trying. So, like it or not, it was successful in what it was trying to accomplish.
3) How sure are you that it's bots on the gateway? A lot of people run alt armies for leadership. Not everyone bots.
They'll never release specifics, but I bet it boils down to lots of data showing a lot of people were resetting tasks at exactly the same intervals consistently over long spans of time.
4) This is just my opinion here but the better action to take would be bans. Lets say you have a way to tell for the gateway if it's a bot.
They ban thousands of accounts per week. It takes 2 seconds to create a new account - people botting for profit (which is the main problem here) aren't worried when one gets caught, they have 50 other accounts running.
So... I'm not that pleased with this change overall. It hurts my income a lot because I relied on the gateway while at work (the cost in in the hundreds of thousands of AD a week to me), but it is what it is. We'll never be privy to the real details, but if it's had a positive effect then good. What I hope is they can find another solution that solves the problem since it's really sad that they had to resort to the nuclear option.
So I just came back to the game and found this. Thought it was a bug at first. Guess not. Anyways here's my take on it for whatever good it will do.
3) How sure are you that it's bots on the gateway? A lot of people run alt armies for leadership. Not everyone bots. I never have and never will. I'm going to guess there is a good percentage of people like me. I don't know how you could be sure that it's a bot on the webpage to be honest.
They don't know at all. It was hastily done without any thought as to who it was really impacting and all it's done is cause tons of people to quit. Any bots that were using the gateway just moved in game. Players who work and needed the gateway moved to other games. It's a silly slap in the face.
There are tons of things they could have done to make leadership or the in game "interface" better, but instead this is what they do.
Sadly, the talent that designed the best parts of Neverwinter are long gone and all we are left with are caretakers who just don't care.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,233Arc User
There are 2 different types of botter.
1. commercial botters who sell you stuff for profit.
2. casual botters who run scripts on their broswer to help for their personal consumption. They just casually pick up something freely available in internet.
PWE did not say which type of botters they are against. They put 2 types as one because PWE cannot easily separate them or if they care. They stop type 2 botters who do not have the same resource as the type 1 botter who can do that in game. Of course, they also mess up normal user who does that by hand.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
On the gateway the top of the list is the rares followed by your highest level tasks. In game it's rares followed by the lowest leveled tasks.
You're not wrong about a lot of things, but FYI these are controlled by your personal settings ("sort by" dropdown). Gateway UI is still miles better though, also for things like assigning extra assets to a task.
Gateway also allows you to assign each profession individual sorting rules, whereas the game has a global one.
Something may be messed up then as it typically goes back to sort by lowest everytime I close the client. I can reset it on a per character per session basis which isn't much better.
4) This is just my opinion here but the better action to take would be bans. Lets say you have a way to tell for the gateway if it's a bot.
They ban thousands of accounts per week. It takes 2 seconds to create a new account - people botting for profit (which is the main problem here) aren't worried when one gets caught, they have 50 other accounts running.
So... I'm not that pleased with this change overall. It hurts my income a lot because I relied on the gateway while at work (the cost in in the hundreds of thousands of AD a week to me), but it is what it is. We'll never be privy to the real details, but if it's had a positive effect then good. What I hope is they can find another solution that solves the problem since it's really sad that they had to resort to the nuclear option.
Here's the problem with the "they'll just create another account" argument as it pertains to leadership botting. If they have a way to detect it, and ban for it daily or even weekly, the people that create another account to do it will never be able to level leadership up to where it's useful to create ad then. Thus the problem as it pertains to leadership is solved.
Also if you need to do it at work do you have a tablet? I'm going to work on figuring out how someone did a tablet to computer sync so they could do World of Warcraft garrisons at work. Should be able to adapt that to NW and it's professions.
Supposedly, Cryptic has data that shows this has not happened. Now... of course, that means they apparently have data that shows bots from not-bots, which of course raises the questions of why there are bots at all if they can isolate them well enough to say with certainty that those bots aren't botting leadership... I think the reality is that bots were already botting both. However, because the it was a lot easier to bot the gateway without much risk (whereas Gameclient bots are risky and tend to do nasty things like broadcast your login to IRC channels...), lots of average joe players did it - now they don't. The real botters were and still are hard at it in-game, and this change didn't do anything about that and it wasn't trying. So, like it or not, it was successful in what it was trying to accomplish.
According to your other posts in forums you seem to be a smart guy.
So, do you really believe what they told us about they have "data" about bots?
Well, I don't! They got nothing, I say you.
I agree with you on this. If they claim that the botter didn't just start botting in game, and that they have data to back that up, I would say something has to be wrong with the way they acquire their data. It is logically unsound that it didn't just transfer to more ingame botting. When something is that illogical you have to question the data.
Supposedly, Cryptic has data that shows this has not happened. Now... of course, that means they apparently have data that shows bots from not-bots, which of course raises the questions of why there are bots at all if they can isolate them well enough to say with certainty that those bots aren't botting leadership...
I think whatever data they used is flawed badly OR if it's not, they're not being honest about the rate of bans since if they can identify bots from not-bots easily enough to run an analysis that shows botting in game wasn't effected... then there simply shouldn't be a bot issue. In fact, I consider it all a load of spin trying to do damage control, which I don't appreciate but I can certainly understand the necessity of.
Things is, though, it doesn't matter and in fact I think while the whole data thing is bunk, I think the conclusion is actually true. In game bots are WAY more complex and would have already existed. I don't think many people running a tempermonky script were also running a gameclient bot - there's not really any reason to do both. The gameclient bots are already more stable than the browser-based scripts, so people using those were already using them and since they're way less easy to come by and more risky, people using a userscript to bot the gateway just stopped by and large because it's a HUGE difference using a userscript vs a hacked gameclient.
So, while I don't believe for a second they have hard data to back it up, I do believe what they said is true: The leadership change had no real effect on in-game botting one way or the other.
Comments
Just in green you can get 6k+1.5k+4.8k=12.3k with 8hr x6 task slots left over.
There are tasks @ 8h 800AD so 3x800= 2.4k more
And 400AD 3x400=1.2kmore
So all green assets i 24 you can get:
12.3k+2.4k+1.2k=15,900AD
This disallows Rare tasks which if used would in 24hr push it back up to over 24k
(there are some 1.6k/14h ones, some 1.5k/12h ones) and some 1.2k/12h non-rares)
But you have still missed the point. The DROPS are worth much more than the AD earned. Just the base green drops are L4-5 RP items. Get a blue or purple in there and you are sitting sweet.
You pay an extra 40K AD for a green man-at-arms compared with a footman and that will do tasks 10% faster but that is only useful of you are logging on at a suitable time. I found that the normal footmen suited me just as well. The only exception is the task that takes 1 full day. I slip later and later with that one until I end up skipping one. But even then it is hard to justify the expensive assets.
Oh, but he did!
Uncommon = Green
Blue = Rare
Purple = Epic
...throughout the whole game.
Gee, I'm running that stuff since almost two years, and with 3 purple Heroes and 6 Green Men@Arms per char. Was maybe the one who injected that 16h/1.5 = 10h40 in the Mod 6 preview forums, and without timing my life all around my LShip I tend to come out at ca. 22k/char unless I get lucky with rare tasks. WITH 3k from invokes, all done ingame. Just thought I overlooked something and thought I'd ask so I might learn what.
Guess what I learned...
On an discussion furthering note: When you look at the time invested in gathering the AD to purchase the Heroes (ca. 250k-350k AD on average because I started using them early...), and the actual time needed for setting up and running all that mumbo-jumbo, the daily DD hour ToS-rush comes out almost equal in terms of revenue, and absolutely so in the short term:
ToS run: Necessary investment when your char gets 55: ca. 10-20k for rare Level-appropriate gear. 10-15 minutes of gameplay => 6k. Key for free.
The LShip mint has to be established (Stuff must be earned and then bought, LShip's gotta get leveled, either in 3 months with little income, or in 5-6 months with low-ish income) and worked (10-15 minutes a day for 5 logins and assigning - invocation! - depending on ISP speed and internet weather), the first half year or so you earn back your investment, and only then you start generating profit with administrative work.
It's actually in the game since 1st edn. AD&D at least - my ancient 1983 DM's Guide IIRC has a several pages long section pertaining to that, methinks, under the "Henchmen and Hirelings" Chapter. (Too lazy to filch the attic...)
I honestly cannot understand why this draws so much aggro - when all the while reaping millions off players buy buying all RP when the news of 2x RP breaks, and immediately offering it again on AH for two to three times the paid price is totally OK. IMHO the latter is cheap and cheesy...
On the other hand, using scripts to work that AD mill... ...is another story - and absorutry not very honorabru...
Legit players who actually play the game wont see any difference in their AD income. If you do daily PvP quests you get 8k AD total, 6k from dungeon (during the event), 6k from skirmishes (during the event), 3k from invoking if you're lvl 70. Rest you can get from leadership or Foundry.
Those who play the game are still getting rewarded and can easily reach the max AD refine cap, at least on their main character.
That is the most stupid thing i've ever heard, if you wanna pay 200 quid a month to get a decent gear, go on, no one is gonna stop you...
But saying that that's the "legit way" to play is just abject nonsense, and the elitism that comes from that position is sickening.
+ which 3 professions they level to 20 for 1 extra slot
+ which rank 3 result they made, and what they used to get it for 1 extra slot
i mean, everyone is writing about having 9 full slots running 24/7, and i'd like to know exactly how they did that...
Could work. Very limited AD for a lot of people. Maybe bind RP items on pickup.
For me,
leadership, alchemy, jewelcrafting.
Alchemy with grandmaster, master. -> fast
Alchemy with 3 purple tools. -> fast
I agree, id rather see rewards changed than whole systems "unimplemented"
At least it would at least prevent the problem from just moving in game - which it has, despite the denial.
The rp tasks seem reasonable, you get a little ad and some other reward.
Yes, bound to character not account. The game making leadership armies a thing was a mistake to begin with.
But if they did all that, they could probably reduce the time of the tasks, or increase the rewards (or both).
Wrong. They need to make the game more fun and not "require" bots or bot armies rather than do more bind on character/account <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Every change they have made so far, to combat bots has ONLY had a detrimental impact on legitimate players. Bots don't care about grind and inconvenience, only real players do.
1) Stopping it on the gateway won't stop bots. The bots are just going to go thru the game client now. The point of the bot is to do it when you aren't there, That means that any added inconvenience is ignored by a bot once they program in a new routine.
2) The UI interface is horrible in game compared to the gateway. You can do your tasks in half the time on the gateway compared to ingame because of the back button and also because of how the tasks are arranged. On the gateway the top of the list is the rares followed by your highest level tasks. In game it's rares followed by the lowest leveled tasks. That's a lot of extra scrolling that bots don't care about but humans do. Just fixing that will take a lot of the "grrr grumble grumble" factor out of doing tasks in game.
3) How sure are you that it's bots on the gateway? A lot of people run alt armies for leadership. Not everyone bots. I never have and never will. I'm going to guess there is a good percentage of people like me. I don't know how you could be sure that it's a bot on the webpage to be honest.
4) This is just my opinion here but the better action to take would be bans. Lets say you have a way to tell for the gateway if it's a bot. Maybe some metrics about the same actions every x amount of time. I don't know. Simply perma ban the account at that point. Give a way to fight it, thru customer support, but if you're not removing botters they're just going to go to the next best thing, it won't actually solve anything to make it more inconvenient.
You're not wrong about a lot of things, but FYI these are controlled by your personal settings ("sort by" dropdown). Gateway UI is still miles better though, also for things like assigning extra assets to a task.
Gateway also allows you to assign each profession individual sorting rules, whereas the game has a global one.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Supposedly, Cryptic has data that shows this has not happened. Now... of course, that means they apparently have data that shows bots from not-bots, which of course raises the questions of why there are bots at all if they can isolate them well enough to say with certainty that those bots aren't botting leadership... I think the reality is that bots were already botting both. However, because the it was a lot easier to bot the gateway without much risk (whereas Gameclient bots are risky and tend to do nasty things like broadcast your login to IRC channels...), lots of average joe players did it - now they don't. The real botters were and still are hard at it in-game, and this change didn't do anything about that and it wasn't trying. So, like it or not, it was successful in what it was trying to accomplish.
Something's messed up with your UI then, because it's not that way for me. Try changing the sort order maybe?
They'll never release specifics, but I bet it boils down to lots of data showing a lot of people were resetting tasks at exactly the same intervals consistently over long spans of time.
They ban thousands of accounts per week. It takes 2 seconds to create a new account - people botting for profit (which is the main problem here) aren't worried when one gets caught, they have 50 other accounts running.
So... I'm not that pleased with this change overall. It hurts my income a lot because I relied on the gateway while at work (the cost in in the hundreds of thousands of AD a week to me), but it is what it is. We'll never be privy to the real details, but if it's had a positive effect then good. What I hope is they can find another solution that solves the problem since it's really sad that they had to resort to the nuclear option.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
They don't know at all. It was hastily done without any thought as to who it was really impacting and all it's done is cause tons of people to quit. Any bots that were using the gateway just moved in game. Players who work and needed the gateway moved to other games. It's a silly slap in the face.
There are tons of things they could have done to make leadership or the in game "interface" better, but instead this is what they do.
Sadly, the talent that designed the best parts of Neverwinter are long gone and all we are left with are caretakers who just don't care.
1. commercial botters who sell you stuff for profit.
2. casual botters who run scripts on their broswer to help for their personal consumption. They just casually pick up something freely available in internet.
PWE did not say which type of botters they are against. They put 2 types as one because PWE cannot easily separate them or if they care. They stop type 2 botters who do not have the same resource as the type 1 botter who can do that in game. Of course, they also mess up normal user who does that by hand.
Something may be messed up then as it typically goes back to sort by lowest everytime I close the client. I can reset it on a per character per session basis which isn't much better.
Here's the problem with the "they'll just create another account" argument as it pertains to leadership botting. If they have a way to detect it, and ban for it daily or even weekly, the people that create another account to do it will never be able to level leadership up to where it's useful to create ad then. Thus the problem as it pertains to leadership is solved.
Also if you need to do it at work do you have a tablet? I'm going to work on figuring out how someone did a tablet to computer sync so they could do World of Warcraft garrisons at work. Should be able to adapt that to NW and it's professions.
I agree with you on this. If they claim that the botter didn't just start botting in game, and that they have data to back that up, I would say something has to be wrong with the way they acquire their data. It is logically unsound that it didn't just transfer to more ingame botting. When something is that illogical you have to question the data.
Believe them? no. Honestly, I don't: (emphasis added)
I think whatever data they used is flawed badly OR if it's not, they're not being honest about the rate of bans since if they can identify bots from not-bots easily enough to run an analysis that shows botting in game wasn't effected... then there simply shouldn't be a bot issue. In fact, I consider it all a load of spin trying to do damage control, which I don't appreciate but I can certainly understand the necessity of.
Things is, though, it doesn't matter and in fact I think while the whole data thing is bunk, I think the conclusion is actually true. In game bots are WAY more complex and would have already existed. I don't think many people running a tempermonky script were also running a gameclient bot - there's not really any reason to do both. The gameclient bots are already more stable than the browser-based scripts, so people using those were already using them and since they're way less easy to come by and more risky, people using a userscript to bot the gateway just stopped by and large because it's a HUGE difference using a userscript vs a hacked gameclient.
So, while I don't believe for a second they have hard data to back it up, I do believe what they said is true: The leadership change had no real effect on in-game botting one way or the other.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance