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Put into perspective the changes to Leadership on Gateway

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    quspivquspiv Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,087 Arc User
    Double AD is only for 4 days or so.
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    regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 3,043 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    greyloche wrote: »
    regenerde wrote: »
    mattock13 wrote: »
    ihaveahies wrote: »
    mattock13 wrote: »
    This went up in the preview patch
    Gateway now has better messaging for Leadership being disabled.

    Does this mean that Leadership will be disabled for the long haul? I hope we get more info soon. When does Mod 7 come out?

    Not sure why it's up for only preview. Surely it'd be a simple change?

    Watching the live stream, I think they said Mod 7 launches in 2 weeks. I had no idea it was so soon. They are probably all working on finishing Strongholds, so live will only get server restarts until launch.

    So a minimum of 3-4 more weeks without gateway.
    You do know, that they plan on releasing Underdark, the next new module in line, at the end of the year, right?
    Now look back to the start of Elemental Evil and what they actually patched/updated from there until know.
    It is hard to still have some hope left for at least a few bug fixes or even some really needed changes to the game...

    because simply turning it back on and saying, oops we didn't think about that, is too much trouble.
    Same about the XP system change, trying to force us to buy those way overpriced XP boosters.

    I wouldn't be surprise to see some kind of profession item popping up in the ZEN shop at some point, that will let you use the Gateway for any profession again... only 9k ZEN per item, and of course per character.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
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    inyawayupdeepinyawayupdeep Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 206 Arc User
    How about getting rid of the professions entirely, they are not providing any entertainment and they take away large amounts of time that should be spent playing the game. My personal experience has shown that you can't rely on any of them other than leadership to make large amounts of AD in the game because by the time you get all the assets together to make high quality items, they come out with better stuff that you can't make.
    For example lets take gemmed pants and shirts, you spend millions of AD to be able to make them and then they come out with embroidered ones that level with your character, this makes the ones your making less desirable. Next they start dropping dragon eggs in Tiamat which crashes the price on the eggs. This would be great if you hadn't been buying and stockpiling them for months before the price dropped, now the pants and shirts your making drop in price so your not making a profit on the ones your selling. Then to really seal the deal they decide to create a higher level versions of your pants and shirts that you can't make and yours are now totally obsolete and to even have a chance to recoup the AD you invested you are now forced to gain five more levels in the profession you thought you had already maxed out.
    I really don't think they did all this maliciously, but it did come together in perfect storm fashion. It would have been more productive and a lot more fun to be running dungeons and doing skirmishes
    I think they should just do a one time snapshot of the value of all your profession assets and allow you to sell them back at that price, then take all the items that are currently being made in professions and make them drop rewards so they are still obtainable, then forget professions ever happened.
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    I like professions in other games where you have to actually do stuff, collect items, and use a workshop to make items that you can either use or sell.
    that being said in NW I've never enjoyed them at all. they're vastly useless and you can almost never get useful stuff for it unless you buy very expensive items. Besides you're not doing the items yourself, but have some minions that do them for you.
    2e2qwj6.jpg
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    How about getting rid of the professions entirely, they are not providing any entertainment and they take away large amounts of time that should be spent playing the game. My personal experience has shown that you can't rely on any of them other than leadership to make large amounts of AD in the game because by the time you get all the assets together to make high quality items, they come out with better stuff that you can't make.
    For example lets take gemmed pants and shirts, you spend millions of AD to be able to make them and then they come out with embroidered ones that level with your character, this makes the ones your making less desirable. Next they start dropping dragon eggs in Tiamat which crashes the price on the eggs. This would be great if you hadn't been buying and stockpiling them for months before the price dropped, now the pants and shirts your making drop in price so your not making a profit on the ones your selling. Then to really seal the deal they decide to create a higher level versions of your pants and shirts that you can't make and yours are now totally obsolete and to even have a chance to recoup the AD you invested you are now forced to gain five more levels in the profession you thought you had already maxed out.
    I really don't think they did all this maliciously, but it did come together in perfect storm fashion. It would have been more productive and a lot more fun to be running dungeons and doing skirmishes
    I think they should just do a one time snapshot of the value of all your profession assets and allow you to sell them back at that price, then take all the items that are currently being made in professions and make them drop rewards so they are still obtainable, then forget professions ever happened.

    Gemmed shirt/pants are made by people with purple profession assets. Right now, each costs like 200k AD, not millions. If you seriously bought the purple assets just to make yourself some shirt/pants yeah, you'll run a few million getting those assets, but then you can at least sell the assets back.

    But, you know, there's a reason the shirt/pants are available on the AH. Not everyone has to spend their profession slots making the items. Just let the people like me who invested in the tools upfront make a slight profit, and you can get a complete set of shirt/pants for only 400,000 AD!

    It'd be nice if professions were more interactive, but I strongly disagree with the notion we should just get rid of them altogether.
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    inyawayupdeepinyawayupdeep Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 206 Arc User
    Maybe what your doing is having effect on the botting, I just looked on AD exchange at the top offers to buy zen with AD and the amounts that people are trying to buy has dropped dramaticly. You can buy zen for about from the game with real money for about $0.01 each US. And in the past I have seen people trying to buy over $40000 worth of zen with AD, and that was just a casual observance, I'm sure it's been more than that at times. I have to assume these zen requests were botters or cryptic itself trying to flood the game with AD, at any rate right now the biggest request is @ $2000-3000 which is a lot more believable.
    At any rate please remember to have a worthwhile experience the player base will still need a legit way to earn enough AD (not rough AD) to aquire the gear and enchants required to do the content in the game at a reasonably competitive level, and without it the game is doomed.
    Thanks and good luck
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    sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    Maybe what your doing is having effect on the botting, I just looked on AD exchange at the top offers to buy zen with AD and the amounts that people are trying to buy has dropped dramaticly.

    Guess again. Most people just stopped bothering to log in. Just look at the steam charts. Another steady decline in the player base.
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    inyawayupdeepinyawayupdeep Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 206 Arc User
    Will all of the above posters kindly state how many character slots they have?

    18 of 21 slots used.

    4 of those are low-level, not able to do professions or invoke, and mostly exist because character slots are cheaper than bank slots and hoarding refinement items against 2xRP is a thing (symptoms of other problems). I've done a little Blacklake skirmish on some of them when I feel like it. I might even feel saucy and level them someday.

    I have a level 70 GWF I started to test some low-level stuff and ended up using for more storage, inadvertently invoked to max level. I could have deleted him but I was already using his bag space.

    Of the 13 characters left, that's one of every class, two GWFs ("tank" and DPS) and five TRs (various builds because fave class). Every one of them but the paladin has all their boons in all campaigns except for the ridiculously grindy ToD/Tiamat ones. The paladin is done DR, acquiring sparks for the 5th Sharandar boon, and not started IWD. Unlocked all the class artifacts. I have played the everloving snot out of this stable of characters, until such a time as the game's own demands for progression made it unfeasible to continue to keep them all going strong. Even so, I've obtained an Elemental Fire weapon on 12 of those from doing the requisite EE quests. They've all got 2.somethingk iLvl. Yeah, they do Leadership. I've done a lot more with them than that though.

    Hey Becky
    4 of 5 slots used
    2 lvl 70 TRs
    Lvl 70 DC
    Lvl 61 CW

    Have thought about leadership army, but didn't want to have professions take away playtime. Played in market to make most of my AD, mostly trading marks, buying stacks cheap, selling individuals retail, life was good, game was fun. Then game started dropping marks everywhere and market crashed (nashes teeth and swears a little in inner monalogue
    I've also crafted items to earn AD but not with any great success, can see earlier post in this stream for details.
    Best way ever to earn AD and get RP was icewind zerg before the nerf, I think they need to take it back to what it was, I know they felt people were spending too much time there, but it was no secret to those doing it that it wouldn't last long you could sense the hammer was about drop on it right from the beginning, that's why we stayed there every minute we could. If we knew it was going to stick around the way it was at the start you would have seen a more casual approach to it from the players. Please bring it back.
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    subnoctesubnocte Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    I think we're long overdue a producer/lead developer letter outlining what is going to be done to get the game in order. We had the one a few months ago saying that some changes would be made, but we've seen nothing really -- except an XP nerf that's made everything worse.

    The devs need to say what will be done about the massive RP grind that makes the game horrible for newer players, what will be done about banning bots and gold sellers, what will be done to help people legitimately earn AD in game and make it fun again.
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    kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    Uhmm...yeah...and I do expect to get an answer from the people responsible for keeping the game up and running.
    Ok...
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
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    plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,288 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    kemi1984 wrote: »
    Uhmm...yeah...and I do expect to get an answer from the people responsible for keeping the game up and running.
    Ok...

    Well, I don't expect to get an answer from the people responsible for keeping the game up and running.
    If they do answer, I don't expect that will be a good answer that will be implemented; I expect that would be an open ended answer that does not mean anything besides being "politically correct" ambiguous answer. For example, "we understand your concern. We are working on something to help ...."

    I can wish but I don't expect.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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    kemi1984kemi1984 Member Posts: 849 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    plasticbat wrote: »
    kemi1984 wrote: »
    Uhmm...yeah...and I do expect to get an answer from the people responsible for keeping the game up and running.
    Ok...

    Well, I don't expect to get an answer from the people responsible for keeping the game up and running.
    If they do answer, I don't expect that will be a good answer that will be implemented; I expect that would be an open ended answer that does not mean anything besides being "politically correct" ambiguous answer. For example, "we understand your concern. We are working on something to help ...."

    I can wish but I don't expect.

    This kind of answer would be nice I agree. I think we kinda appreciate Strum at least making an effort to feed us with some kind of information here and there. It's his job to do so, and he's doing what he possibly can to satisfy unsatisfied...

    Mail mentioned by @subnocte written by a lead developer at the start of mod6 gave us a strap of hope that something will be done. After I saw raising the HP and the XP nerf I seriously opened my eyes asking "WTF!", I mean what a slap in the face that was!

    Handling botters while hurting legit players is another stupid thing to do - gateway thing.

    I'm yet to hear what are the ideas about said "making the game rewarding" thing. I would LOVE to play the game as I used to, making AD to get better gear in game rather than creating a Leadership army which is seriously stupid as hell.
    I can only hope that making last WE a double AD WE is not only a marketing/political action to ease the fire.

    On a side note. I see so many good, fast, spot on reaction from the dev's in the Strongholds preview part of the forums.
    This gives me hope it will be much more player friendly that a total disaster that mod6 is.
    By "player friendly" I mean reacting on bugs/glitches and things found earlier on the preview shard. Actually LISTENING to the players, that is something that was sorely missed for a long long time.

    Keep up the good, work - as a long time player, I do hope to keep play NWN for long time to come.
    Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter
    A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"

    1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
    2). Yes. I am panzer!
    3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
    4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
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    karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    reiwulf wrote: »
    I like professions in other games where you have to actually do stuff, collect items, and use a workshop to make items that you can either use or sell.
    that being said in NW I've never enjoyed them at all. they're vastly useless and you can almost never get useful stuff for it unless you buy very expensive items. Besides you're not doing the items yourself, but have some minions that do them for you.

    I like the Browser-esqu profession style in Neverwinter because it matches in some way. In D&D i had never a character that crafts his own gear. And to have some craftsmen that doing all the stuff is pretty cool. But it miss a lot of immersion. That means i miss the feeling i sending my Craftsmen on a job with miniquests and to craft items, it feels to rough as mechanic, a problem the Game Neverwinter has since the very beginning.

    plat.png
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    Oh man, I'm just now imagining a far more involved user interface, with a "professions manager" that gives you roleplaying-y comments about how all your professions are going, like some kind of J-RPG minigame.
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    inyawayupdeepinyawayupdeep Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 206 Arc User

    How about getting rid of the professions entirely, they are not providing any entertainment and they take away large amounts of time that should be spent playing the game. My personal experience has shown that you can't rely on any of them other than leadership to make large amounts of AD in the game because by the time you get all the assets together to make high quality items, they come out with better stuff that you can't make.
    For example lets take gemmed pants and shirts, you spend millions of AD to be able to make them and then they come out with embroidered ones that level with your character, this makes the ones your making less desirable. Next they start dropping dragon eggs in Tiamat which crashes the price on the eggs. This would be great if you hadn't been buying and stockpiling them for months before the price dropped, now the pants and shirts your making drop in price so your not making a profit on the ones your selling. Then to really seal the deal they decide to create a higher level versions of your pants and shirts that you can't make and yours are now totally obsolete and to even have a chance to recoup the AD you invested you are now forced to gain five more levels in the profession you thought you had already maxed out.
    I really don't think they did all this maliciously, but it did come together in perfect storm fashion. It would have been more productive and a lot more fun to be running dungeons and doing skirmishes
    I think they should just do a one time snapshot of the value of all your profession assets and allow you to sell them back at that price, then take all the items that are currently being made in professions and make them drop rewards so they are still obtainable, then forget professions ever happened.

    Gemmed shirt/pants are made by people with purple profession assets. Right now, each costs like 200k AD, not millions. If you seriously bought the purple assets just to make yourself some shirt/pants yeah, you'll run a few million getting those assets, but then you can at least sell the assets back.

    But, you know, there's a reason the shirt/pants are available on the AH. Not everyone has to spend their profession slots making the items. Just let the people like me who invested in the tools upfront make a slight profit, and you can get a complete set of shirt/pants for only 400,000 AD!

    It'd be nice if professions were more interactive, but I strongly disagree with the notion we should just get rid of them altogether.
    Yeah I understand how it works, as I was trying relate, I feel the way I do about this because of my own personal experience in the game, my apologies for not keeping the post in first person but it would have sounded much angrier if I had.
    I did just what you are doing now, I tried to make and sell shirts and pants for profit (still do from time to time). The post pretty much goes over all things that transpired to jack up my plan.
    As I was trying to relate you can't rely on things to stay the same, maybe they create embroidered pants and shirts with gems slots next that are only sold in zen store and are bound to character, poof you're out of business, maybe they decide they have neglected professions for too long and want to get everyone excited about doing them by providing a cheap way to get those purple tools so people can make them for themselves, a larger group of happy well geared players might be just what the game needs right now, to bad if it didn't go along with the plans you made.
    In the end if the game just provided a nice income stream that went along with game play rather than stopping your game so you could do your professions garbage for an hour, the game experience would be better, at least in my opinion.
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    umcjdkingumcjdking Member Posts: 276 Arc User
    Hey Andy,

    My only comment here is this: Players first. At any point myself, and anyone else can just leave the game - which quite a few of us are doing. This game has more bots than players at this point. 3 weeks and I haven't even so much as updated this game or logged into gateway.

    But I'm just one person. Take it as you will.
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    myowmyowmyowmyow Member Posts: 1,923 Arc User
    Maybe what your doing is having effect on the botting, I just looked on AD exchange at the top offers to buy zen with AD and the amounts that people are trying to buy has dropped dramaticly. You can buy zen for about from the game with real money for about $0.01 each US. And in the past I have seen people trying to buy over $40000 worth of zen with AD, and that was just a casual observance, I'm sure it's been more than that at times. I have to assume these zen requests were botters or cryptic itself trying to flood the game with AD, at any rate right now the biggest request is @ $2000-3000 which is a lot more believable.
    At any rate please remember to have a worthwhile experience the player base will still need a legit way to earn enough AD (not rough AD) to aquire the gear and enchants required to do the content in the game at a reasonably competitive level, and without it the game is doomed.
    Thanks and good luck


    Players are leaving or not playing much - I think this is the reason for the lower activity on the ZAX. Just look at the results of the poll in the "Are you happy with Neverwinter" thread in this forum area.
    SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! SEC! (repeat indefinitely)


    myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
    pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
    looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
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    karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    Yeah makes totally sense that 90% of players left on an instant.
    plat.png
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
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    plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 12,288 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    Well, i should say thanks to this change.

    Since the rank4 now listed as 1800 per 99

    It was 1800 before the patch too. The price goes up and down all the time. It is now about 2400.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    In real life, assets depreciate. My purple tools don't depreciate, but as the game changes, the value of those tools can change.

    If they suddenly make purple tools easier to get, well, that sucks for those of us who have purple tools, but it's not like I haven't already made more AD from my purple tools than they cost in the first place-which is nice, because I still have the purple tools and until Cryptic changes things to make them worthless, I still have the theoretical option to liquidate them for AD.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    plasticbat wrote: »
    Well, i should say thanks to this change.

    Since the rank4 now listed as 1800 per 99

    It was 1800 before the patch too. The price goes up and down all the time. It is now about 2400.

    I bought a truckload of R4s (because I'm anticipating a double RP weekend sometime in the nearish future), which drove up the price by like, 100 per stack of 99 for a day. Maybe half a day.

    It's very hard to have an impact on the market as an individual.
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    thyralionthyralion Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    Hello Community,

    We’d like to thank you all for taking the time to give us your feedback on the recent suspension of Leadership on Gateway. We know that this has been a big change to the Astral Diamond economy and it’s going to take a significant effort on our part to make sure the market stabilizes in a positive way. We know that some of you are concerned about the threat of botting moving into the game. As part of this task, we’ve dug in and examined the current data. After analyzing said data, and studying any economy changes, we can report that we have not seen any significant increase in the botting of Leadership in-game.

    We also understand your concerns regarding the cost of goods versus the amount of Astral Diamonds coming into the economy. In the short term, we are keeping an eye on the supply of Astral Diamonds to make sure it performs as expected. We will also be running multiple “2x AD” events to make sure adventurers are able to get the Astral Diamonds they need. In the long term, we are re-examining the various non-profession methods of earning Astral Diamonds. It’s important to us that playing the game rewards AD sufficiently.

    Again, thank you for your feedback on the change, and your commitment to Neverwinter.

    - The Neverwinter Team

    What´s the comparative to "rampant" ?
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    sm0ld3rsm0ld3r Member Posts: 236 Arc User
    I bet they didn't do a % based comparison. They need to take into account the # of folks that just outright quit after the change. For sure in game leadership botting increased. Of that we don't need to see their data to figure out.
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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    If you're going to just claim they're lying, please provide some backing. I can't stand the "I reject your data (without giving reasons why other than that it does not support my viewpoint)" defense.
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    relkindxrelkindx Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    Hello Community,

    We’d like to thank you all for taking the time to give us your feedback on the recent suspension of Leadership on Gateway. We know that this has been a big change to the Astral Diamond economy and it’s going to take a significant effort on our part to make sure the market stabilizes in a positive way. We know that some of you are concerned about the threat of botting moving into the game. As part of this task, we’ve dug in and examined the current data. After analyzing said data, and studying any economy changes, we can report that we have not seen any significant increase in the botting of Leadership in-game.

    We also understand your concerns regarding the cost of goods versus the amount of Astral Diamonds coming into the economy. In the short term, we are keeping an eye on the supply of Astral Diamonds to make sure it performs as expected. We will also be running multiple “2x AD” events to make sure adventurers are able to get the Astral Diamonds they need. In the long term, we are re-examining the various non-profession methods of earning Astral Diamonds. It’s important to us that playing the game rewards AD sufficiently.

    Again, thank you for your feedback on the change, and your commitment to Neverwinter.

    - The Neverwinter Team

    Ok, great. You solved the botting problem. How about figuring out a way for us to still use leadership on the gateway. I'm so much less engaged than I was before.

    It's still too early to see the real effect on the economy. The Zen to AD ratio dropped like a rock only because every one got spooked that AD value would fall, so everyone sold their Zen (me too). AD didn't drop, so it's starting to climb back up. There is nothing to spend money on right now, so I imagine people are just holding onto to their money. I'm guessing that Strongholds will be a huge AD sink, (doesn't a guild need like 10's of millions for it's buildings. How are we supposed to generate that kind of money.


    My alts just languish with no tasks during most of the day. When I do have time to play in game, I don't want to spend it doing leadership, I want to play. How can I afford these new buildings with out a small leadership army. Seriously, the only one happy about this change is my boss. He's wondering why I became more productive at work.

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    theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,861 Arc User
    edited August 2015
    morenthar wrote: »
    More 2x AD events matters very little to me. Removing leadership from Gateway affected me very little.

    I would much prefer 2x RP to be more frequent. How about the first full weekend of every month? That would go a long way towards making people happy.

    I like the cut of your jib. More 2x RP weekends! All day erry day!

    In all seriousness, I recently purchased a lot of RP items, so I could seriously go for one right now >>
This discussion has been closed.