LOL, I can't believe this thread is still going... Leadership is gone from the Gateway, and since there's tons of stuff that *should* be in the gateway and isn't (VIP, Stronghold info, bank vault logs, etc) - I think it's safe to say the Gateway is so low a priority it isn't even on the priority list. It and the Foundry are both listed over on the "We'd like to do this" list... along with bringing DDs back. If they do anything, be pleasantly surprised that they exceeded your expectations.
erm, nevermind, I was replying to something on page 2 because for some weird reason this silly forum put me there instead of page 20 and I didn't notice. meh (this post can be deleted if any mod wants to bother)
Hope they remove the AD from leadership tasks and remove that stupid 24k limit in AD refinement for those few that still care to run dungeons.
There you go..Bias much?
So you hope they make the game playable only the way YOU play, make it NOT be playable the way 80% the other players play.
Excellent business model there...T-off all of your customers, and don't deliver what you sold to 4/5th of them. If you did business that way through the mail it would be called "mail fraud" and you would be doing time in a federal prison.
They could remove the 24k cap and have zero negative effect. Those that "play" for 16hr at a stretch could do so and reap the AD (and then miss out the next day when they collapse from exaustion ). And those that play another way might not hit the 24k cap every day, but over time would level out since they aren't merathon players.
I have to concur that no answer is a answer in itself. The "bot problem" wasn't. It was a red herring. The fact that they have this thread still going is the old "let them holler it out and get it out of their system" method. If they simply dropped the thread then it would be mods closing new ones on the subject 18 times a day.
The gateway was a cross marketing tool that was highly succsesful, too much so. So the do what always happens when there is to much of a good thing, it got nerfed. Sad thing is, the gateway was laid out nice and let you collect and set professions fast and easy and get the occasional daily reward, now with the nerf it's functionality for most is cut by 9/10th.
I wish they could import the professions and tab system the gateway has into the game, it sure would be nicer than the cluncky and time consuming way it is in game now, heck if they did that, I might actually get to "play" the game and enjoy it instead of thinking of it as a chore.
Hope they remove the AD from leadership tasks and remove that stupid 24k limit in AD refinement for those few that still care to run dungeons.
24K per 24h is OK, but if we have douple AD event then make 2x refine too...
...and for Leadersjhit, just remove all AD generating task from it and replace them wit some usefull... as long ledershjit generates AD it will be problem for this game so called "economy"...
As mentioned before, the Devs should remove all professions from The Gateway. Period. You want to do professions? Play the damn game.
Set up a few more mini games with decent rewards on The Gateway.
And there is a good reason for the 24k/24hrs cap, and there is also a good reason for the 500 AD for 1 ZEN cap. Yes, it's the bots, plain and simple. Removing AD from Leadership will not bother the bots, whatever way they introduce to get AD after any change to LS, the bots will be all over it.
You really think that running through dungeons is a problem for a bot, and they won't be able to generate AD anymore? Think again! The bots will just map any instance within hours, and then farm them 24/7.
The only real way to deal with bots are real GMs ingame. But that will cost them money, and generate little to no money in return... in other words, not going to happen.
Same goes for a real spam filter. No money for the PWE managment in it, therefore no reason to let the Devs come up with something that actually works.
And that's the way it is. The managment tells the devs what to do. Just take a good look at all the changes, and you will see it too...
I suspect it's a problem when I have been avidly playing since Alpha/beta times, have more toons than most and when the third *ever* Double AD event happened this last weekend I thought "Meh. Not even going to bother". So I logged-in, invoked, reset Professions, logged out. And I'm doing that even only once a day now.
Have 10 Million AD and nothing interests me enough to spend it on. Have 100's of Zen Point and everything in the Zen Market is boring (and nothing new since that ugly crab mount, srsly?).
The bugs are irritating, but doable. The incredibly frequent "cannot contact account server" every time I switch characters is annoying as hell, but I still do it (I must be a mas-o-chist). But when there is just plain nothing to do in game but grind for really lackluster rewards...
Mod 5 was so-so, Mod 6 a total train wreck. They get one more chance from me. Just one.
Well, you could support a guild to get the higher level boons... otherwise you might not get far in Underdark, if they base the difficulty on those Stronghold benefits.
But to be back on topic, it would be great to get at least something official after all that waiting... and not just on this topic, but on others too.
I do believe in killing the messenger...
Want to know why?
Because it sends a message!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
But to be back on topic, it would be great to get at least something official after all that waiting... and not just on this topic, but on others too.
The devs are still listening.
But not really responding/communicating anywhere prominently noticeable, except through playing telephone with the community moderators.
There are many, many threads asking for 'official' word on many, many issues and we're still in a near-vacuum of dev communication. No official word on the account-wide companion issue in over a month. No official word on DDs returning or even what the blockers are for that (last communication from Strum said Mod 7 was taking up everyone's time). No official word in nearly a month on progress on earning AD in game. No official word on the sudden dearth of weekly sales.
Communication is a two-way thing. I feel like I (and more than likely many in the community) would be much happier if instead of being told "The devs are still listening" but never hearing anything until things went live in game they were actively talking about things as they work on them.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
The patch notes over the last several weeks have been very good at addressing issues brought up by the player base, most notably the decrease in monster difficulty, the increase to influence gain, and the fix to the armor penetration issue. This week a few more bugs are being fixed, and more stuff is in the pipeline.
The devs aren't going to announce anything until it's implemented. The problem with saying that "We're working specifically on X" or "Y will be ready soon" is that it creates unnecessary expectations that the community then tends to see as promises. And if these issues are resolved as quickly as some people like, the dev bashing begins.
So it's better for them to take note, work on stuff then display the results as they're done.
Hey sprite, I'll do a sexy dance for you - is that worth a couple million AD maybe? Be my surgardaddy!
On the gateway topic... I definitely oppose the notion of removing AD from Leadership tasks. The 24k limit doesn't bother me because I understand it's purpose. The problem isn't AD in leadership, the problem is lack of things to sell for already-refined AD that isn't from the Zen store.
The patch notes over the last several weeks have been very good at addressing issues brought up by the player base, most notably the decrease in monster difficulty, the increase to influence gain, and the fix to the armor penetration issue. This week a few more bugs are being fixed, and more stuff is in the pipeline.
The devs aren't going to announce anything until it's implemented. The problem with saying that "We're working specifically on X" or "Y will be ready soon" is that it creates unnecessary expectations that the community then tends to see as promises. And if these issues are resolved as quickly as some people like, the dev bashing begins.
So it's better for them to take note, work on stuff then display the results as they're done.
Which you ARE seeing.
This isn't dev bashing. This is trying to provide feedback on how at least one person thinks communication could be better.
First, saying "we're working on X" is exactly what has happened, but without any follow up. They've said "Dungeons are coming back", but we have no idea when. We have no idea what's causing the delay, either - first it was Mod 7, now it's something else as yet unidentified. Same for the account-wide companion issue. The last thing we heard was "we're getting closer to a resolution", but since then, zero updates. Not even saying "we're still getting closer but we aren't there yet." At worst, it makes it look like the issue has been forgotten, and at best, it seems like a single sentence update a month is too much to hope for.
The reason people think things might get done in a timely manner is that is all they have to go off of. Saying "we're busy" might be great for preventing people from looking at WIP features that haven't been announced yet as 'promises', but it isn't so great in helping people understand why things are moving at the pace they are when the scope of what is keeping them busy isn't readily apparent.
Secondly, waiting until things are implemented to discuss them is precisely what led to NEEDING the fixes that have been put in lately (which are great to see, by the way - I don't want to ever say that having these things fixed isn't FANTASTIC). Monster difficulty was something the community discussed at length immediately after Mod 6, but the 'nerf damage and boost HP into the stratosphere' approach was implemented out of the blue and then had to be tweaked a month later after further feedback. This may very well have been avoided if a dialogue of "Here's what what we're thinking of doing, what do you think?" had been pursued and iterated on before pushing to live. Influence gain (and the generally high resource needs for Strongholds) was another thing that players gave tons of feedback on from the Preview shard, and yet it was pushed to live as presented and then had to be 'fixed' later on.
So what we ARE seeing is the devs taking note, working on things (which is good!) and then trying to implement them without testing or at least trying to communicate with the community about them (which is bad!).
A perfect case in point is the recent Guild Donations log - all the kudos to the team for seeing a feature asked for and rushing to try to deliver it. In the haste to do so, however, they pushed a feature to live that literally CRASHED THE GAME when you tried to use it.
Bugs will happen. Anyone who says they won't or expects them not to is just delusional. But something like that, which you'd like to think might have been avoided with a single round of feedback on a preview server or QA, shouldn't.
Measure twice, cut once, as they say. In amongst all the trolls and people who want to complain for the sake of complaining, you have a passionate, dedicated community of people who would be more than happy to help measure and provide their thoughts. Should that dictate how the game is designed? Of course not. But it might help a bit, if it were engaged more.
Anyway, any additional discussion on this only derails the OP. Apologies.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
The patch notes over the last several weeks have been very good at addressing issues brought up by the player base, most notably the decrease in monster difficulty, the increase to influence gain, and the fix to the armor penetration issue. This week a few more bugs are being fixed, and more stuff is in the pipeline.
The devs aren't going to announce anything until it's implemented. The problem with saying that "We're working specifically on X" or "Y will be ready soon" is that it creates unnecessary expectations that the community then tends to see as promises. And if these issues are resolved as quickly as some people like, the dev bashing begins.
So it's better for them to take note, work on stuff then display the results as they're done.
Which you ARE seeing.
You mean like announcing a release date then everyone getting when it gets moved out, the raid portion doesn't get released for a month until after the mod release, or the new pvp mechanism that is the pride of a module release is not released until a month after mod release?
Why do people hate shrinks? They encourage you to pour out your feelings as they nod sagely. Then they charge you for that "service", as they make you another in a long series of appointments. They tell you in hushed tones that "we" are making progress, and "we" are near a breakthrough, and "we" are going to be healed soon.
Why do folks like their bartender? They listen to you pour out your frustrations as they nod sagely. They offer to top up your cup at appropriate intervals. They don't give you clap trap about "we" anything, they don't schedule you some new appointment your going to feel robbed over. They discuss topical subjects with you and "communicate". After you have ranted a while either the release of venting kicks in, or booze takes it's toll. The bar tender sends you off to toddle on home with a "nice to see you, come on back again".
Which do you feel you are talking to when you rant in the forums? To me it feels more like the shrink.
They may be "listening" but they aren't "communicating".
Ever get frustrated when you are talking to someone and they are just nodding their head? Does it get you angry when you are making some important point to someone you are "communicating" with and they pull out their cell and nod to your words as they pick up voicemail or start texting? THAT'S the feeling we get from the Dev's.
The way it is currently handled from the Dev side of things, we get the distinct impression that they are just nodding their heads to the conversation flow and giving the occasional grunt in response when we ask a question of them. It's freakn annoying. Put down your cell, turn off the TV, log off the computer, stop reading the paper, whatever it is you are doing, meet our gaze and LISTEN, and then COMMUNICATE at the appropriate time in the conversation.
The patch notes over the last several weeks have been very good at addressing issues brought up by the player base, most notably the decrease in monster difficulty, the increase to influence gain, and the fix to the armor penetration issue. This week a few more bugs are being fixed, and more stuff is in the pipeline.
The devs aren't going to announce anything until it's implemented. The problem with saying that "We're working specifically on X" or "Y will be ready soon" is that it creates unnecessary expectations that the community then tends to see as promises. And if these issues are resolved as quickly as some people like, the dev bashing begins.
So it's better for them to take note, work on stuff then display the results as they're done.
Which you ARE seeing.
How many new issues have they introduced with every new patch this far? Latest exhibit, The Event Tracker, that we right now have to hide, practically flying blind without mission/quest tracker, so that we can even play at a decent frame rate again.
And the Devs could at least give us some kind of road map, to show where the game is going and what they have planed. Sure, plans do change, but all they have to do is update the road map.
Or instead of blogging about some minor details, it would be more interesting to see them blogging about the issues this game has, and when and how they want to solve them. Btw. the "official" feedback thread here in the feedback forum looks pretty dead to me by now... so what about blogging about that?
Same goes for the streaming... how about streaming Devs and/or CMs running through dungeons/skirmishes with the minimal itemlevel required and no high itemlevel backup? Now that would be something interesting to stream.
This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.
First of all, I value the fact you come here of your own accord and try to put things in perspective. Kudoos. It takes some guts to move away from the flame shield that you cannót help but need. You're only the messenger after all.
If I may, I'd like to put things in a much wider perspective. You're relatively new to the game and while that's nothing to be ashamed of, you may have missed certain key events in the history of the game;
Yes leadership gets abused. And not just through the gateway either. No offense to you personally, but the players already knew that 2 years ago, said so and were ignored. It's not the gateway, it's the entire leadership thing that gets abused. Let's follow the line of events and see where it leads up to:
1. characters have a 24k AD refining limit.
2. to make things easier for people you created the gateway
3. people don't accept the 24k refining limit and start creating leadership armies
4. Bots also see the potential of leadership armies and follow suit.
5. 90% of the farmable content from the game gets removed. It really doesn't matter what reason there was for it. Let's just accept it as a fact.
6. As a result of 5. more people create leadership armies. They have no alternative. Or so they believe. Let's not get into a discussion on the validty of that view. It's a fact that people feel this way.
7. The current patch notes tells people to get in-game to do leadership, effectively taking away their only convenience for doing these leadership tasks. People don't run any other tasks once they leveled them and got their rings, which is the only other valuable thing you can reasonably get with professions
That is basically what's going on from a player's PoV. You cannot blame them for not being too happy about it. There's already little to nothing to do but refing till they die and this on top of everything isn't helpful. Trust is low and pushing through large changes like this can only make things worse. I know this is just the first step in a much larger plan, but putting this forward by itself with no information about why and what's coming next, you're only making people feel horrible about what you do.
Now let me try to do the same from a company's PoV and try to show you what should have been done instead in my opinion:
1. statistics show that the 24k refining limit gets abused by creating leadership armies. No action was taken on this. Panderus himself stated that there's nothing wrong with having a leadership army. But actions should have been taken. What? Anything really. We're still just out of open beta in this stage so we're free to make adjustments. Perhaps restrict leadership to x characters per account, perhaps create an account-wide limit instead of a character based one. I'm sure your devs can figure it out. Point is, it was ignored and allowed to continue for over 2 years.
2. Bots are taking over both the RP market as well as the ZAx market by selling for 60% of the value Cryptic put on it. What was done to fight the bots? Nothing. Nothing at all. Cryptic tried to fight a symptom, namely the large amount of RP going on the AH. I'm no rocket scientist, but it should be clear that fighting a symptom has no value if you don't fight the source of the symptom: The bots themselves. Again, this was stated more than once along with several alternatives that, while perhaps more expensive, would yield endlessly better results than what Cryptic did. But Cryptic insisted on re-inventing the wheel and stubbornly reduced drop rates instead of fighting the bots directly. Players howled so hard that you could hear them in the Wolf Den. but that too was ignored and done away with 'we'll re-look into it". That was about 5 months ago.
3. Let's skip several exploits and bug abuses that were very poorly dealt with and continue to today:
4. Removing of the leadership profession from the gateway. What does this objectively achieve:
No more 3rd party scripting to operate the website. Alright, how does that affect bots? Not at all. Since there's nothing preventing them from repeating the same script in game all this does is cost them 10 min per account of 50 characters extra with no AD loss to them. How does this affect players? In all honesty, not significantly. Tasks run long enough to plan them around your daily life. But you do take away a great convenience from the players. And what for? to fight yet another symptom of a much larger problem.
So, what should have been done then?
First of all, the game needs an anti-cheat engine. It can't be too hard to build or buy a program that detects the same characters going in and out the same instance every 2-3 minutes and mark the account for deletion. It's a matter of reading the log files and knowing what to look for. I'm sure some of your devs have their own connections in the business that can provide you with something.
Second, you need to take away as much of their wares as possible. You started off well with the keys, but there's too much other stuff still for sale. Zen items should be BtA upon purchase. This ensures that people who want AD or Zen will actually use the ZAx and you deny 3rd party sellers from selling items through the ZAx. Both will greatly benefit the economy.
Third, and this will not be very popular perhaps, but it should be done: Remove RP from the market entirely. Instead, give people the chance to drop sufficient BtA RP to refine their gear. No more blarney with 376 types of RP, just 1: refining points account wide (if you want to sell us bag space, create stuff we want to have, not that we're forced to have). This will also help people with alts who feel they can't afford to play more than 1 character at the time. Remove all enchantment drops from the game and sell basic enchantments of the rank you think is fitting (perhaps with a level restriction for certain ranks) in the WB for AD. BtA of course, even after upgrading. That way people can make and refine their own stuff, while at the same time remove 90% of the bot's in-game income. It's secure and as an added bonus you have an AD sink that everybody will and must use. This gives you room to play with the GMOP and CWard drop rates (also BtA by default) to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance of upgrading their enchantments and artifact gear.
Lastly, and I know people will hate me for saying it, remove all AD gain from leadership and replace it with RP. AD should be made from playing the game and nothing else. There's a reason every other MMO works like this. And Cryptic is finally realizing that too, otherwise they wouldn't make this change. Ensure that both PvP and PvE people can max out their refining limits in their respective areas. I may require work of course, but keep it possible. Someone who's played an entire evening on his dailies should be able to reach the refining cap.
Stop fuzzing about with the symptoms and target the issues that cause the symptoms. That's my 2 cents on the matter.
> Bias? SURE I AM. I am biased for those who actually play the game, not for the little corrupt idiots that have 50 alts to exploit a broken mechanic. > > If i ever want to trade Zen for AD i want to do so with people that got that AD playing the Game, not with THIEVES that steal the value of the AD of those who actually play the game!
There was a Pollyanna on this tread claiming that everyhing will become cheaper because the excess AD will flush out of the system.Also zen /AD exchange was going to go down for the previous reason.
4M zen request from 500AD each is sitting on the ZAX
Dragon Egg 65-70k to 100k Elemental Purple Shirts and gears 150k-200k to 250-350k One slotted rings 175k-200k to 250-275k
and dont let the prices fool you because some people are still buying gears from these prices
ZAX shot back up because of VIP. You need 9K to 10K Zen to hit VIP 12.
The players that have millions of AD lying around have already bought most Zen stuff they want. VIP gives them a new reason to convert some of their pile to Zen. I try to keep about 10K Zen to hand but my stocks are a little low atm because... VIP!
There was a Pollyanna on this tread claiming that everyhing will become cheaper because the excess AD will flush out of the system.Also zen /AD exchange was going to go down for the previous reason.
4M zen request from 500AD each is sitting on the ZAX
Dragon Egg 65-70k to 100k Elemental Purple Shirts and gears 150k-200k to 250-350k One slotted rings 175k-200k to 250-275k
and dont let the prices fool you because some people are still buying gears from these prices
That was all a bunch of sophistry. We all know that the "bots" have all moved in game so this change had no bearing on the AD prices. More than likely they aren't posting on this thread because they are still trying to remove their feet from their mouth.
> Bias? SURE I AM. I am biased for those who actually play the game, not for the little corrupt idiots that have 50 alts to exploit a broken mechanic.
>
> If i ever want to trade Zen for AD i want to do so with people that got that AD playing the Game, not with THIEVES that steal the value of the AD of those who actually play the game!
ROFL. Distorted view of the world methinks....
Distorted how? To think that people should be rewarded for playing the game and NOT for abusing bad mechanics?
Anyway the current situation endures cause as usual cryptic refuses to fix things, like the very caturday that just happened cause cryptic choose to ignore all the notifications.
Now its even worse, loads of people are printing AD without even playing the game and getting all the good stuff.
I just completed ECC legit in my 2450 char, what i got with it?
some seals and thats it, cause even the raw ad from salvage is put away from me in that BIG stockpile of AD to "refine".
So people that actually care and are playing the game get no rewards and those who just log an army of characters to exploit are rewarded.
Am i telling any lie? There are LOADS of AD exploiters out there that know how broke this stupid system is, but still do it cause it is almost the ONLY way to get power.
And that is ONLY cryptic fault.
LOL yes distorted.
You are one of those blind people that insist that the way you play is the only way to play.
I bet you yell at the T.V. as well don't you?
People that do professions are playing as well, just not your way. People that sit on the AH to earn AD are playing as well, just not your way. People that sit in PE and do nothing but chat are playing, just not your way. People that do only PvP are playing, just not your way. People that do only dailies are playing, people that do only dungeons are playing, people that role play are playing, People that only log on gateway are playing, just not YOUR way. People that only pug, premake, guild etc etc. are PLAYING, just not the way you insist is the only way that is "legit" in your mind.
So yes, we laugh at you and call you biased and distorted.
Because for some deluded reason, you feel someone died and left you the arbiter of what is and is not a "legit" mode of play.
Consider this, oh blind one: If I buy all the materials I need to level up my professions, and I take the time each day to log on to set the skills on those professions, and I meet the conditions to open up more professions slots. If I open crates and chests to get the additional items needed to craft for the professions. If I spend zen/AD to get better crafting tools/resources. If I patiently work and take the time to level any profession to 20-25, and decide to finally reap the rewards from doing all that......guess what?
I played the game doing all that. I worked for it, and expect a reward...JUST LIKE YOU played doing skirmishes, dungeons,quests are whatever YOU do, when YOU play. Just because I didn't play the game in the manner that you pre-approve of, does not mean I didn't play, I did, MY way.
Because I play my way, whatever it is, however it is. And every other freak'n player plays THEIR way! It does not invalidate how we play and the REWARDS we get for our efforts, any more than it does your way and your rewards.
But for you to come on here and make blanket statements that this, that or the other is an "exploit" of the system, or that we are "ruining" it by playing our way, that we aren't getting AD or rewards legitimately, it just makes you look like a fool. We worked for things just like you did, just another way, and it's not fair or legit to call for wiping out what we worked for just because it wasn't "your" way.
So I should take your path, I should call for eliminating all foundry, skirmish, dungeon and PvP, and quest rewards, especially AD? I should say they end all hourly reward things? No, I'm not you, you played your way and EARNED rewards YOUR way, enjoy them, kindly just don't call to end mine please. I worked for them as well, just not your way.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
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Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
So you hope they make the game playable only the way YOU play, make it NOT be playable the way 80% the other players play.
Excellent business model there...T-off all of your customers, and don't deliver what you sold to 4/5th of them. If you did business that way through the mail it would be called "mail fraud" and you would be doing time in a federal prison.
They could remove the 24k cap and have zero negative effect. Those that "play" for 16hr at a stretch could do so and reap the AD (and then miss out the next day when they collapse from exaustion
I have to concur that no answer is a answer in itself. The "bot problem" wasn't. It was a red herring. The fact that they have this thread still going is the old "let them holler it out and get it out of their system" method. If they simply dropped the thread then it would be mods closing new ones on the subject 18 times a day.
The gateway was a cross marketing tool that was highly succsesful, too much so. So the do what always happens when there is to much of a good thing, it got nerfed. Sad thing is, the gateway was laid out nice and let you collect and set professions fast and easy and get the occasional daily reward, now with the nerf it's functionality for most is cut by 9/10th.
I wish they could import the professions and tab system the gateway has into the game, it sure would be nicer than the cluncky and time consuming way it is in game now, heck if they did that, I might actually get to "play" the game and enjoy it instead of thinking of it as a chore.
...and for Leadersjhit, just remove all AD generating task from it and replace them wit some usefull... as long ledershjit generates AD it will be problem for this game so called "economy"...
..current change is OK, nothing changed
,
Period.
You want to do professions? Play the damn game.
Set up a few more mini games with decent rewards on The Gateway.
And there is a good reason for the 24k/24hrs cap, and there is also a good reason for the 500 AD for 1 ZEN cap.
Yes, it's the bots, plain and simple.
Removing AD from Leadership will not bother the bots, whatever way they introduce to get AD after any change to LS, the bots will be all over it.
You really think that running through dungeons is a problem for a bot, and they won't be able to generate AD anymore?
Think again!
The bots will just map any instance within hours, and then farm them 24/7.
The only real way to deal with bots are real GMs ingame.
But that will cost them money, and generate little to no money in return... in other words, not going to happen.
Same goes for a real spam filter.
No money for the PWE managment in it, therefore no reason to let the Devs come up with something that actually works.
And that's the way it is.
The managment tells the devs what to do.
Just take a good look at all the changes, and you will see it too...
Have 10 Million AD and nothing interests me enough to spend it on. Have 100's of Zen Point and everything in the Zen Market is boring (and nothing new since that ugly crab mount, srsly?).
The bugs are irritating, but doable. The incredibly frequent "cannot contact account server" every time I switch characters is annoying as hell, but I still do it (I must be a mas-o-chist). But when there is just plain nothing to do in game but grind for really lackluster rewards...
Mod 5 was so-so, Mod 6 a total train wreck. They get one more chance from me. Just one.
But to be back on topic, it would be great to get at least something official after all that waiting... and not just on this topic, but on others too.
There are many, many threads asking for 'official' word on many, many issues and we're still in a near-vacuum of dev communication. No official word on the account-wide companion issue in over a month. No official word on DDs returning or even what the blockers are for that (last communication from Strum said Mod 7 was taking up everyone's time). No official word in nearly a month on progress on earning AD in game. No official word on the sudden dearth of weekly sales.
Communication is a two-way thing. I feel like I (and more than likely many in the community) would be much happier if instead of being told "The devs are still listening" but never hearing anything until things went live in game they were actively talking about things as they work on them.
The devs aren't going to announce anything until it's implemented. The problem with saying that "We're working specifically on X" or "Y will be ready soon" is that it creates unnecessary expectations that the community then tends to see as promises. And if these issues are resolved as quickly as some people like, the dev bashing begins.
So it's better for them to take note, work on stuff then display the results as they're done.
Which you ARE seeing.
On the gateway topic... I definitely oppose the notion of removing AD from Leadership tasks. The 24k limit doesn't bother me because I understand it's purpose. The problem isn't AD in leadership, the problem is lack of things to sell for already-refined AD that isn't from the Zen store.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
First, saying "we're working on X" is exactly what has happened, but without any follow up. They've said "Dungeons are coming back", but we have no idea when. We have no idea what's causing the delay, either - first it was Mod 7, now it's something else as yet unidentified. Same for the account-wide companion issue. The last thing we heard was "we're getting closer to a resolution", but since then, zero updates. Not even saying "we're still getting closer but we aren't there yet." At worst, it makes it look like the issue has been forgotten, and at best, it seems like a single sentence update a month is too much to hope for.
The reason people think things might get done in a timely manner is that is all they have to go off of. Saying "we're busy" might be great for preventing people from looking at WIP features that haven't been announced yet as 'promises', but it isn't so great in helping people understand why things are moving at the pace they are when the scope of what is keeping them busy isn't readily apparent.
Secondly, waiting until things are implemented to discuss them is precisely what led to NEEDING the fixes that have been put in lately (which are great to see, by the way - I don't want to ever say that having these things fixed isn't FANTASTIC). Monster difficulty was something the community discussed at length immediately after Mod 6, but the 'nerf damage and boost HP into the stratosphere' approach was implemented out of the blue and then had to be tweaked a month later after further feedback. This may very well have been avoided if a dialogue of "Here's what what we're thinking of doing, what do you think?" had been pursued and iterated on before pushing to live. Influence gain (and the generally high resource needs for Strongholds) was another thing that players gave tons of feedback on from the Preview shard, and yet it was pushed to live as presented and then had to be 'fixed' later on.
So what we ARE seeing is the devs taking note, working on things (which is good!) and then trying to implement them without testing or at least trying to communicate with the community about them (which is bad!).
A perfect case in point is the recent Guild Donations log - all the kudos to the team for seeing a feature asked for and rushing to try to deliver it. In the haste to do so, however, they pushed a feature to live that literally CRASHED THE GAME when you tried to use it.
Bugs will happen. Anyone who says they won't or expects them not to is just delusional. But something like that, which you'd like to think might have been avoided with a single round of feedback on a preview server or QA, shouldn't.
Measure twice, cut once, as they say. In amongst all the trolls and people who want to complain for the sake of complaining, you have a passionate, dedicated community of people who would be more than happy to help measure and provide their thoughts. Should that dictate how the game is designed? Of course not. But it might help a bit, if it were engaged more.
Anyway, any additional discussion on this only derails the OP. Apologies.
They encourage you to pour out your feelings as they nod sagely. Then they charge you for that "service", as they make you another in a long series of appointments. They tell you in hushed tones that "we" are making progress, and "we" are near a breakthrough, and "we" are going to be healed soon.
Why do folks like their bartender?
They listen to you pour out your frustrations as they nod sagely. They offer to top up your cup at appropriate intervals. They don't give you clap trap about "we" anything, they don't schedule you some new appointment your going to feel robbed over. They discuss topical subjects with you and "communicate". After you have ranted a while either the release of venting kicks in, or booze takes it's toll. The bar tender sends you off to toddle on home with a "nice to see you, come on back again".
Which do you feel you are talking to when you rant in the forums? To me it feels more like the shrink.
They may be "listening" but they aren't "communicating".
Ever get frustrated when you are talking to someone and they are just nodding their head? Does it get you angry when you are making some important point to someone you are "communicating" with and they pull out their cell and nod to your words as they pick up voicemail or start texting? THAT'S the feeling we get from the Dev's.
The way it is currently handled from the Dev side of things, we get the distinct impression that they are just nodding their heads to the conversation flow and giving the occasional grunt in response when we ask a question of them. It's freakn annoying. Put down your cell, turn off the TV, log off the computer, stop reading the paper, whatever it is you are doing, meet our gaze and LISTEN, and then COMMUNICATE at the appropriate time in the conversation.
Latest exhibit, The Event Tracker, that we right now have to hide, practically flying blind without mission/quest tracker, so that we can even play at a decent frame rate again.
And the Devs could at least give us some kind of road map, to show where the game is going and what they have planed. Sure, plans do change, but all they have to do is update the road map.
Or instead of blogging about some minor details, it would be more interesting to see them blogging about the issues this game has, and when and how they want to solve them.
Btw. the "official" feedback thread here in the feedback forum looks pretty dead to me by now... so what about blogging about that?
Same goes for the streaming... how about streaming Devs and/or CMs running through dungeons/skirmishes with the minimal itemlevel required and no high itemlevel backup?
Now that would be something interesting to stream.
If I may, I'd like to put things in a much wider perspective. You're relatively new to the game and while that's nothing to be ashamed of, you may have missed certain key events in the history of the game;
Yes leadership gets abused. And not just through the gateway either. No offense to you personally, but the players already knew that 2 years ago, said so and were ignored. It's not the gateway, it's the entire leadership thing that gets abused. Let's follow the line of events and see where it leads up to:
1. characters have a 24k AD refining limit.
2. to make things easier for people you created the gateway
3. people don't accept the 24k refining limit and start creating leadership armies
4. Bots also see the potential of leadership armies and follow suit.
5. 90% of the farmable content from the game gets removed. It really doesn't matter what reason there was for it. Let's just accept it as a fact.
6. As a result of 5. more people create leadership armies. They have no alternative. Or so they believe. Let's not get into a discussion on the validty of that view. It's a fact that people feel this way.
7. The current patch notes tells people to get in-game to do leadership, effectively taking away their only convenience for doing these leadership tasks. People don't run any other tasks once they leveled them and got their rings, which is the only other valuable thing you can reasonably get with professions
That is basically what's going on from a player's PoV. You cannot blame them for not being too happy about it. There's already little to nothing to do but refing till they die and this on top of everything isn't helpful. Trust is low and pushing through large changes like this can only make things worse. I know this is just the first step in a much larger plan, but putting this forward by itself with no information about why and what's coming next, you're only making people feel horrible about what you do.
Now let me try to do the same from a company's PoV and try to show you what should have been done instead in my opinion:
1. statistics show that the 24k refining limit gets abused by creating leadership armies. No action was taken on this. Panderus himself stated that there's nothing wrong with having a leadership army. But actions should have been taken. What? Anything really. We're still just out of open beta in this stage so we're free to make adjustments. Perhaps restrict leadership to x characters per account, perhaps create an account-wide limit instead of a character based one. I'm sure your devs can figure it out. Point is, it was ignored and allowed to continue for over 2 years.
2. Bots are taking over both the RP market as well as the ZAx market by selling for 60% of the value Cryptic put on it. What was done to fight the bots? Nothing. Nothing at all. Cryptic tried to fight a symptom, namely the large amount of RP going on the AH. I'm no rocket scientist, but it should be clear that fighting a symptom has no value if you don't fight the source of the symptom: The bots themselves. Again, this was stated more than once along with several alternatives that, while perhaps more expensive, would yield endlessly better results than what Cryptic did. But Cryptic insisted on re-inventing the wheel and stubbornly reduced drop rates instead of fighting the bots directly. Players howled so hard that you could hear them in the Wolf Den. but that too was ignored and done away with 'we'll re-look into it". That was about 5 months ago.
3. Let's skip several exploits and bug abuses that were very poorly dealt with and continue to today:
4. Removing of the leadership profession from the gateway. What does this objectively achieve:
No more 3rd party scripting to operate the website. Alright, how does that affect bots? Not at all. Since there's nothing preventing them from repeating the same script in game all this does is cost them 10 min per account of 50 characters extra with no AD loss to them. How does this affect players? In all honesty, not significantly. Tasks run long enough to plan them around your daily life. But you do take away a great convenience from the players. And what for? to fight yet another symptom of a much larger problem.
So, what should have been done then?
First of all, the game needs an anti-cheat engine. It can't be too hard to build or buy a program that detects the same characters going in and out the same instance every 2-3 minutes and mark the account for deletion. It's a matter of reading the log files and knowing what to look for. I'm sure some of your devs have their own connections in the business that can provide you with something.
Second, you need to take away as much of their wares as possible. You started off well with the keys, but there's too much other stuff still for sale. Zen items should be BtA upon purchase. This ensures that people who want AD or Zen will actually use the ZAx and you deny 3rd party sellers from selling items through the ZAx. Both will greatly benefit the economy.
Third, and this will not be very popular perhaps, but it should be done: Remove RP from the market entirely. Instead, give people the chance to drop sufficient BtA RP to refine their gear. No more blarney with 376 types of RP, just 1: refining points account wide (if you want to sell us bag space, create stuff we want to have, not that we're forced to have). This will also help people with alts who feel they can't afford to play more than 1 character at the time. Remove all enchantment drops from the game and sell basic enchantments of the rank you think is fitting (perhaps with a level restriction for certain ranks) in the WB for AD. BtA of course, even after upgrading. That way people can make and refine their own stuff, while at the same time remove 90% of the bot's in-game income. It's secure and as an added bonus you have an AD sink that everybody will and must use. This gives you room to play with the GMOP and CWard drop rates (also BtA by default) to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance of upgrading their enchantments and artifact gear.
Lastly, and I know people will hate me for saying it, remove all AD gain from leadership and replace it with RP. AD should be made from playing the game and nothing else. There's a reason every other MMO works like this. And Cryptic is finally realizing that too, otherwise they wouldn't make this change. Ensure that both PvP and PvE people can max out their refining limits in their respective areas. I may require work of course, but keep it possible. Someone who's played an entire evening on his dailies should be able to reach the refining cap.
Stop fuzzing about with the symptoms and target the issues that cause the symptoms. That's my 2 cents on the matter.
I agree 100%. Hire this man! or woman!
> Bias? SURE I AM. I am biased for those who actually play the game, not for the little corrupt idiots that have 50 alts to exploit a broken mechanic.
>
> If i ever want to trade Zen for AD i want to do so with people that got that AD playing the Game, not with THIEVES that steal the value of the AD of those who actually play the game!
ROFL. Distorted view of the world methinks....
There was a Pollyanna on this tread claiming that everyhing will become cheaper because the excess AD will flush out of the system.Also zen /AD exchange was going to go down for the previous reason.
4M zen request from 500AD each is sitting on the ZAX
Dragon Egg 65-70k to 100k
Elemental Purple Shirts and gears 150k-200k to 250-350k
One slotted rings 175k-200k to 250-275k
and dont let the prices fool you because some people are still buying gears from these prices
The players that have millions of AD lying around have already bought most Zen stuff they want. VIP gives them a new reason to convert some of their pile to Zen. I try to keep about 10K Zen to hand but my stocks are a little low atm because... VIP!
You are one of those blind people that insist that the way you play is the only way to play.
I bet you yell at the T.V. as well don't you?
People that do professions are playing as well, just not your way.
People that sit on the AH to earn AD are playing as well, just not your way.
People that sit in PE and do nothing but chat are playing, just not your way.
People that do only PvP are playing, just not your way.
People that do only dailies are playing, people that do only dungeons are playing, people that role play are playing,
People that only log on gateway are playing, just not YOUR way.
People that only pug, premake, guild etc etc. are PLAYING, just not the way you insist is the only way that is "legit" in your mind.
So yes, we laugh at you and call you biased and distorted.
Because for some deluded reason, you feel someone died and left you the arbiter of what is and is not a "legit" mode of play.
Consider this, oh blind one:
If I buy all the materials I need to level up my professions, and I take the time each day to log on to set the skills on those professions, and I meet the conditions to open up more professions slots. If I open crates and chests to get the additional items needed to craft for the professions. If I spend zen/AD to get better crafting tools/resources. If I patiently work and take the time to level any profession to 20-25, and decide to finally reap the rewards from doing all that......guess what?
I played the game doing all that. I worked for it, and expect a reward...JUST LIKE YOU played doing skirmishes, dungeons,quests are whatever YOU do, when YOU play. Just because I didn't play the game in the manner that you pre-approve of, does not mean I didn't play, I did, MY way.
Because I play my way, whatever it is, however it is. And every other freak'n player plays THEIR way! It does not invalidate how we play and the REWARDS we get for our efforts, any more than it does your way and your rewards.
But for you to come on here and make blanket statements that this, that or the other is an "exploit" of the system, or that we are "ruining" it by playing our way, that we aren't getting AD or rewards legitimately, it just makes you look like a fool. We worked for things just like you did, just another way, and it's not fair or legit to call for wiping out what we worked for just because it wasn't "your" way.
So I should take your path, I should call for eliminating all foundry, skirmish, dungeon and PvP, and quest rewards, especially AD? I should say they end all hourly reward things? No, I'm not you, you played your way and EARNED rewards YOUR way, enjoy them, kindly just don't call to end mine please. I worked for them as well, just not your way.