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Put into perspective the changes to Leadership on Gateway



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    mattsacremattsacre Member Posts: 330 Arc User
    reiwulf said:

    why do you insist in trying to compare what would each person lose? the result would be better for eveyrone. no one would take away what you have earned till now.

    Do you work for a living? If so, did you either go to school for your training or a trade? Do you have the type of job that takes seniority into account?

    Let's play a scenerio here:
    You exit grade school and:
    A. Go to college (your folks pay or you get a grant/loan whatever OR best of all you work your way through school (you will appreciate it more))
    B. Go to a trade school and work your way through and pass through apprenticeship and onto journeyman and are nearing mastership.
    C. Enter right into a profession that takes longevity into account and let's you work up through the corporate structure and you are on the cusp of a big promotion...

    So you worked and sweated and "did your time" in the trenches, you paid your dues and proved yourself worthy of your just rewards......and the CEO comes in one day and says, "gather your stuff and get out." No reason, just get out. So you go to get your severance pay and the manager says, " no check, tough, get out."

    You would wonder what the heck was going on right? You worked hard, you did your job, did your time, why the treatment. Then you find out through back channels that it was the CEO that was HAMSTER up, that your pert of the company was doing good, but that marketing wasn't selling what you made so he made a "executive decision" to fire not the sales department but YOU. Would you be mad? Would you want your severance? You would want more than a "get out" wouldn't you?

    You see the players have "invested" in their jobs, they have worked up profession(s) over time and would like the rewards from their work. They don't want a "get out". It would NOT be good for everyone as you think. Someone get's "fired" when professions get's nerfed. They get a "get out", with no compensation.

    OK, yes going forward, everyone would be the same if they nerfed the profession, they didn't "lose" what they already had.......EXCEPT all the time and effort they already put in, all that college schooling, all that trade school apprenticeship, all the seniority through the ladder. They wouldn't lose ANYTHING would they, well except time and effort and investment in their future.

    What you propose is communism at it's best :) everyone would be "equal" no matter how hard they worked..well that is except those that are MORE equal than everyone else.

    How would having 10 gazillion AD in the game "hurt" the game. A $ 100 bill is a $1 with two 0 in back, the amount don't matter, it's what you can get for the amount that matters. The only "hurt" to the game is the Devs perceptions and their reactions to their perceptions about AD. It's the "sinks" they put in that are the hurt, it keeps player A from getting it and player B getting it because he had a HAMSTER full of AD. Let everyone "earn" AD at a comparable level HOWEVER THEY CHOOSE TO PLAY and then everyone can get the stuff, AD at that point is just Epeen.

    Have you ever considered why the 24/d RAD is 24/d? Why have it? The "real reason" is "balance". Some bright young lad (not so bright) thought it would keep people from getting to far ahead of others, or have to much AD, that putting that cap they couldn't get 1m AD a day and outspend everyone else. Did it work? NO. Because while they were at it the created AD bottlenecks, what is the side effect of bottlenecks? Alternative currencies. Since things are bought and sold with AD not RAD it's a ready way around that artificial 24/d handycap, THAT'S what botters exploit and drive a mac truck through, bottlenecks.

    So back to you..why do you insist on trying to compare everyone else play "style" to yours and how it's "hurting" you. How would me, or bob or chuck or larry, or even mary earning more AD through professions then you "hurt" you. Or by taking the ability for us to make those AD through professions be "helpful" to anyone in any way?

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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    "the way you play". you mean actually playing the game by doing dungeons, pvp, anre skirmishes like in any other MMO?
    this is the only MMO I've played that lets you earn the main source of currency by logging in ctrl+i, set professions and logout and it's ridiculous.
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    rhoriangelusrhoriangelus Member Posts: 703 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    mattsacre said:

    *snip because giant rant again*

    How would having 10 gazillion AD in the game "hurt" the game. A $ 100 bill is a $1 with two 0 in back, the amount don't matter, it's what you can get for the amount that matters. The only "hurt" to the game is the Devs perceptions and their reactions to their perceptions about AD. It's the "sinks" they put in that are the hurt, it keeps player A from getting it and player B getting it because he had a **** full of AD. Let everyone "earn" AD at a comparable level HOWEVER THEY CHOOSE TO PLAY and then everyone can get the stuff, AD at that point is just Epeen.

    You were SO FREAKING CLOSE to understanding it there. You're absolutely right, there is fundamentally no difference between a 100 dollar bill and a 1 dollar bill. But giving people 10 gazillion AD means everything in the game will cost 10 gazillion AD. This is a BAD thing. You want everyone to have a smaller, manageable amount of AD, and pay smaller, manageable amounts for things.

    In this scenario, the prices of EVERYTHING would go down
    . This is the important part of how to make this work. ALL of the bottlenecks you're complaining about would also scale down with the economy. Instead of costing 100K, GMOPS could be costing 10K. Mount training could be costing 100K instead of 1.5 million. And you could get your AD from other players, keeping the economy from bloating like this again.
    macjae said:

    We NEED deflation! The economy is in a state of hyperinflation right now. Everything you need costs millions of AD because there's way too much of it in the economy. Making MORE AD out of thin air is just going to continue to make the problem worse. You make tons upon tons of currency out of nothing, and suddenly, the currency is WORTH nothing. Take out the source of that, and the currency goes UP in value. This is a good thing.

    There is no hyperinflation -- prices on the AH for popular big-time goods have been fairly stable for most of the game's history. Popular artifacts cost in the range of 1-5m, some that only come from defunct lockboxes are at a bit more than that. Apart from that, prices for high-demand AD sink items like GMOPs and Cubes of Augmentation are set by the Wondrous Bazaar -- people buying those things in the WB makes AD dissipate.

    If anything, prices are lower than they were at their peaks when prominent exploits were being used to generate more AD, and the gateway change likely flushed some AD generation from the system as well. Likewise, the market prices of many items are set by GMOP and RP prices -- like enchantments.

    So, no, the game is not in a state of inflation, and very, very far from being in a state of hyperinflation.

    If, on the other hand, you mean that prices are too high for a player to manage to get anywhere close to remotely decent gear on a budget of 24k AD per day, you are entirely correct. But prices have *always* been too high for that. And that won't be rectified by reducing the amount of available AD, as that will actually have the outcome of making enchantments and any gear that requires GMOPs to upgrade more expensive in real terms, which will increase the amount of actual *effort* needed to get them for most players.
    Big ticket items are costing millions of AD because people are creating millions of AD out of thin air. This is absolutely hyperinflation. Even if it wasn't, you still seem to think deflation is a bad thing, when it absolutely is not. Money SHOULD be able to buy more for each individual unit of currency, not take millions of them to buy things.
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    dsn1118dsn1118 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 682 Arc User
    edited September 2015

    And for a player that isn't buying AD with real money, deflation would be very bad indeed because it would dry up the ability to sell items on the AH for a decent price, while prices on some items wouldn't drop because they're static, set by the WB. For example, if deflation would reduce the cost of an artifact that currently costs 1.2m on the AH to say 300k, that would mean the value of that would drop from 14-16 GMOPs to 3-4. So deflation would reduce the value of loot you can *sell*, but it would not reduce the cost of most items you want to *buy* for your character, because those are static. Abolishing AD from Leadership would actually make *everyone* worse off for this reason.

    That is exactly what people are trying to explain for months.People are still thinking with real life conditions.This game has some sort static costs they you have to make while making your gear.I will not pay 100m to 5m enchantment because it only takes 3-4m if I made it myself.Inflation will happen only one way in this game and they took care of that by binding them.It was dungeon gears.One mainhand weapon cost millions before mod5.You cant overprice RP stones because Zen store is already selling them on fixed amount.You cant overprice enchantments because people can create them thanks to ZAX and Wondrous Bazaar.You cant overprice belts or neck gears because their drop is decent.Event artifacts are the only thing can be sold with huge amount of money for now(like Forgehammer).Even orange mounts started to get in some fixed amounts according to their droprates

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    cjh1983cjh1983 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 229 Arc User
    So... leadership back in gateway when?
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    reiwulfreiwulf Member Posts: 2,687 Arc User
    having the main source of new AD generation based on an activity that's the most easily done by bot is a big mistake by the concept itself. We're giving ideas to change that.
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    mjonismjonis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 146 Arc User
    mattock13 said:

    Seems to me that talking about removing AD from leadership is a waste of time. For something so drastic to be done, it would have to have been done in the game's infancy. As it is now, players have put tons of time and effort into leveling leadership so that they could make some AD away from questing, and not be pigeonholed into spending their playing time running the same quests over and over. If you nullify that investment huge numbers of players would feel betrayed and leave the game. That is the last thing we need right now.

    I support adding MORE ways to make AD in game, even if that means lowering the daily limit a little. As other posters have said, the strength of this game was in its variety. It is a big draw that players can play so many different ways and do what interests them without sacrificing progress. The further we get away from that, the more the game will suffer.

    Well supposedly they've removed all AD from leadership (it's on preview now, or so they say in the Legit channel). Wonder if that's why the patch notes aren't posted yet.

    You'll get 3,000 AD from the first 2 dungeons. Yay. A whopping 6,000 AD for 30 min of work (well, maybe 17-20 if you are with a party that knows what they're doing and can skip a lot of the stuff to get to the chest at the end).
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    krieg69krieg69 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    What is so difficult about implementing a CAPCHA

    A bunch of people are saying we're punishing players, but let's put things into perspective about the game as a whole instead of what each individual player sees. We have information you guys may not be aware of in that the amount of people botting in Leadership on Gateway is astounding! They're actually ruining the economy by having so much AD that it hikes everything up, but many aren't aware of this. By removing it, the economy will be more balanced as "illegal" currency would take a hit - yes, we know there are other ways, but one step at a time.

    Let's not think about this in terms of individual and immediate problems. Just because it doesn't affect you directly, doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Manyyyyy people have asked us to take care of all the botters and their monopoly of AD, but when we do something to stop some of it, the same people berate us. I'm not sure about you, but this just doesn't sound right. So I'm asking you guys to look at the bigger picture instead of what's directly in front of you and ask yourself the same questions you're asking us.

    I understand your frustrations, but again, look at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to acknowledge when a decision is questionable like the XP changes and whatnot, but this one is not questionable; it's just not obvious at first.

    Many people say we never act on anything the community wants. Here we are acting on it - getting rid of a major source for botting, which will result in a more balanced economy.

    This is my honest opinion and I am speaking for myself, not anyone else.

    What is so hard about implementing a CAPTCHA system for the Gateway? If it would get leadership back I would not complain if I had to re-enter a code for each individual character I bring up. This is the most simple and elegant solution out there. As it has not been implemented, I suspect this is also a money grab in addition to a BOT killing exercise.

    If you want a real world assessment on how this has affected your bottom line, look at my spending history prior to and after leadership was taken off the Gateway. Thousands of $$ prior to and $0.00 since. There you go.
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    cjh1983cjh1983 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 229 Arc User
    The captain is asleep at the wheel
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    zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    Closing this up as we don't need comments mixed between two threads. Please see the following thread for details and to continue the discussion. Thanks!

    Astral Diamond Changes
This discussion has been closed.