in my opinion, melee classes should have a dodge and range classes dont. that is a demand of the game after the dungeons reworks.
being the ONLY PURE MELEE CLASS OF THE GAME gwf should not only have a dodge, but the best of the game. less than that is the dead of the class and the game. the devs dont will read that, but be registered.
I'm more in favor of the parry stance idea. Where you gain all the benefits of sprint, with just holding shift while being stationary.
There are some benefits of sprint that are still useful that I'd like to remain to stay. Its usually difficult for a heavily armor person to dodge attacks frequently enough, though dodge would very much be useful for the class. I dont see much balance with it.
Instead our defensive capabilities need to be adjusted much more, since part of our role is taking damage. they honestly shouldnt have ever messed with the original Unstoppable DR % that it used to be.
with dodge, our sprint would be replaced and our class would be way too sluggish to position well and accurately. (we do require our attacks to hit or we're SOL )
With sprint we're at least able to engage and disengage from battle fluidly, though we dont have any way of negating significant damage when we see or know its coming.
The problem with current sprint is, to benefit with oncoming damage, we are forced to run around even when its ideal not to. And can often put us in an unfavorable position once we've negated the attack we were meaning to negate, using sprint AGAIN to reposition quickly and correctly to counterattack in order to land a blow.
The problem henceforth is sprint mostly being wasted when being used as a defensive tool, what its supposed to be for, in addition. Our stamina doesnt restore fast enough for this (cause our stamina regeneration is so bad, even when stat allocated for it). The stance being the GWF holding thier weapon out in front of them, with thier free hand braced upon the flat end of the back, to demonstrate they're in a parrying stance.
Example:
the solution I beleive thats best for the class as a whole for long term I beleive to be in favor of Parry Stance. Which initiates when Shift is held with no movement. Draining stamina half as slowly as if sprinting.
And Stamina regeneration for the class as a whole buffed. (can even double the stamina regeneration Strength gives)
The current sprint delay when first engaging sprint then will be justified. Since for that split second from breaking parry stance to going to a sprint will make an opening for themself. The sprint delay will actually make sense for a mechanical and aesthetic reason.
The GWF is an adaptable class. So therefore it should play like one. Active defensive options are nessecary for this. And I think the parrying stance will grant that, and allow GWF's to actively have defensive methods and not have to go around like a mad berserker to benefit from thier passive defensive stuff thats already proven to be lack luster. (which that style fits more of the barbarian class than a seasoned trained fighter of great weapons.)
(yes, for this i speak a lot of times to put 3 charges in roar... is just look a game made to be a fighter)
sprint bonus dont will help in nothing. now or you protect yourself to 100% of damage, or dont have nothing
so... the best is dodge+back grand fissure.
but no... another module in trash.
Focused Destroyer- this feat should grant 100% chance to give stack of destroyer and duration should be incrased by 1 second per point spend at max rank.
100% would work well - just like Weapon Master.
Id still rather them just remove the "stacking" of this feat and you can even keep it at 25% however its just a flat buff AT the full max. So you have a 25% chance with each hit to get Destroyer Buff for 4 seconds.
Base Feat: Destroyer: When attacking 3 or more opponents gain "Destroyer" which boosts damage by 9% for 4 seconds.
Each Rank Up: +9%
Destroyers Purpose: Increases damage by 10% and you have a 25% chance to gain Destroyer off any attack.
Basically remove stacking, buff is FULL benefits all else stays the same.
Another alternative to "Shift" could be "Mighty Leap" equivalent...
Jump in the air forward a fixed distance, no "double click" just press shift once, and it "Mighty Leaps" you forward X distance. This could provide control immunity as well as "damage immunity" during the animation. Gives GWFs a gap closer with CC and damage immunity.
With the direction this game is going the ability to have CC/Damage immunity frames is VERY VERY key. Its no wonder why GWF/SW are the WEAKEST PVP classes in the game and share the SAME shift.
GWF - Some version of Punishing Charge or Mighty Leap should be on Shift - a fixed distance gap closer, CC/Damage immunity frames.
SW - Needs to be invisible or un-targetable AS WELL AS damage and CC IMMUNE.
hasn't there been any kind of suggestion about "adding %dodge/evade" chance to deflect powers like bravery or "master at arms"? by doing this, the devs wouldn't have a problem introducing another mechanic/animation until a rework in the future will be done. this can also be easily deployed by using existing mechanics used by tr's and other toons that have the dodge skills.
the only problem to this is that it needs to proc. as other's dodge mechanics goes, it procs whenever it wants to proc.
applying/adding %dodge on the existing deflect powers and feats would eliminate the "shift" problem and all the suggested mechanic on how to invoke dodge. yea, for now you can't control dodge but at least our gwf can dodge on its own when rng procs like any other dodging class.
Weapon masters strike is not adding any stacks and has no effect fore even being slotted
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
BUG:
*Determination gain destroyer cap feat not wroking correctly .
"You now gain Determination by dealing damage!" Not all source of dmg increase my Determination gain example: at will and some encounters.
*Unfettered Strikes not increase running speed .
*Countless Scars not increase my DR.
*Grand Fissure something is wrong with this encounter it deals at-will dmg and have 20 sec CD? MY sure strike deal 10-14 k dmg and Grand fissure deal 10-20 k dmg .
*Weapon master class feature rank 4 not working at all i dont gain any stack.
*Destoryer after rased by player or by soul forged or by paladin's passive it stop working,...
*Slam cannot crit .
*Race: Metallic Ancestry Dragonborn
*Metalllic Ancestry: You receive 3% more healing from all spells and abilities. Your Hit Points are increased by 3%. not working for GWF both hp boost & recive healing from abilities like Restoring strike and unstoppable recovery.
seriously what's wrong with our Skill, Skill Names and Class specific Skill,
1. First "Takedown,
and now probably "Takestun,
it doesn't do any more, for what it was designed.
2. second "Unstoppable,
How really unstoppable we are? , when Piercing dmg can simple ignore it completely.
feels more like stoppable, abatable..
3. third " hidden daggers,
we are a heavy armor class,daggers doesn't fit the class,
why do we not throwing 2 giant Axe? from both hands or our Weapon that we're using (like boomerang)
there's many ways to make this skill much better, than simply daggers from rouge.
I like hidden daggers although throwing your weapon in an arc as wide as hidden daggers would be more like our class but besides all that the biggest issue i have found in PvE for GWF is our Damage Reduction ... we are now great weapon clothies on test I have a full set of lev 70 purples with full rank 10s and lev 100+ artifacts a grand total of 6757 def that gives me a whopping 28%....
to get back to my 45% of lev 60 I would need another 14,000 def or another 34 AC which I doubt you can get with any of the gear they have yet to release
a full set of lev 70 purples with full rank 10s and lev 100+ artifacts a grand total of 6757 def that gives me a whopping 28%....
Yep the stats are very very bad, and stats is all a gwf has, unlike the other classes.
They should allow gwf to wear tissue or leather, it gives better defense than mail.
Yep the stats are very very bad, and stats is all a gwf has, unlike the other classes.
They should allow gwf to wear tissue or leather, it gives better defense than mail.
make us wear leather and call us barbarians? maybe then we can get our own forums... lol
the longhouse where people come to talk about all things barbarian
sounds kinda nice... but even then they would probably shove us in with those shady TRs
but seriously why only us cryptic?
TRs? meh deflect bonuses, ITC, stealth
pally? tons of DR, a shield a health pool that would startle an olympic swimmer.
GF? about the same as a pally
GWF? umm well we have a health potion... and umm... well if you are still alive then you can hit unstoppable .. I mean I dont know what you are gonna do when that runs out but um well there ya go class balance....
I like hidden daggers although throwing your weapon in an arc as wide as hidden daggers would be more like our class but besides all that the biggest issue i have found in PvE for GWF is our Damage Reduction ... we are now great weapon clothies on test I have a full set of lev 70 purples with full rank 10s and lev 100+ artifacts a grand total of 6757 def that gives me a whopping 28%....
to get back to my 45% of lev 60 I would need another 14,000 def or another 34 AC which I doubt you can get with any of the gear they have yet to release
You can still make this an "AoE" it would be slightly tighter "grouping" - more like FLS for an "area" but more consistent with the class AND could still have ALL the same benefits - meaning charges + damage bonus for X seconds.
Also this would not jump the GWF backwards.... Which is stupid.
Im thinking to take my Destroyer to the sentinel tree and get 3 feats from there. All for added survivability, but Preview doesnt give the right idea. I'll need to wait till mod 6 is live and my toon is lvl 70
PS: GFs on the other hand will be super tough. Added 50% DR for 3 sec from LS and BC each will make them nigh unbreakable in PVP. If the GF also has a negation enchant things are looking very interesting.
oh the GF looks good but yea dont bother NOTHING I have done on test has added any survivability on test so far a straight up STR CON full sent build feels just as mushy as a straight dps destro STR DEX with 10 pts in instigator you arelooking at the diference between the two of 28.5 damage resist and 29.6 DR and with the capstone of sent you will be at mod 5 DR for a destro GWF so sent is as squishy on test as a destro GWF is on live ony without the lifesteal offset ... so yea nay points toward any survivability will be wasted because with the new stays we can only be a glass cannon period
You can still make this an "AoE" it would be slightly tighter "grouping" - more like FLS for an "area" but more consistent with the class AND could still have ALL the same benefits - meaning charges + damage bonus for X seconds.
Also this would not jump the GWF backwards.... Which is stupid.
meh i dont like the thorowing an infinte number of big *** axes out likt that I still think it should just be our weapon we throw in a big wide arc like the cone of hidden daggers.
as for the jump back it just takes some getting used to and sometimes you can even use it as a dodge ... just imagine a GWF has you and is winding up an IBS and boop out of range and heres a face full of daggers for your trouble
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Another Slam bug:
Not even one weapon enchant activating on target hit by slam .
...being the ONLY PURE MELEE CLASS OF THE GAME gwf...
Well now that you have Encounter Powers that let you throw a knife/dagger and create a giant fissure in the ground... I am not sure you qualify as a "pure" melee class any more.
Just using logic, and having a discourse on semantics! :cool:
GWF players should have asked the devs to redesign the class so it was centered on active defenses, not get lured into the endless micro-tweaking "ups and downs game" the devs played between mod3 ~ mod5.
The reason being, as long as the central, core mechanic of the class is centered on a power so drastic as Uunstoppable, there is no "middle point". In retrospect, powers like Unstoppable are either one of "it's super strong and you're unkillable or "it's useless, and you're like tofu." No such thing as 'just right' in these type of powers, because unlike in theory, situations in PvP are dynamic. It shifts and changes all the time, so when defenses are setup in these type of mechanics - like Unstoppable, and like stealth, it's either that the mechanic becomes so powerful that it blocks everything and becomes super-OP, or constantly fails under certain circumstances which people learn to create after a time -- and hence just becomes a gaping hole.
I thought it was familiar, and I realized its because us TRs are exactly the same. In so many ways, GWFs and TRs are like twins. The way how the class has/had a extremely powerful, centeral mechanic, which is not just powerful but almost overpoweringly so. Hence, 80%~90% of what the class is is totally centered on that single mechanic, and as a result all the other powers -- at-wills and encounters, are simply inefficient, weak, bland, not very functional, limited utilities that come as an uninspiring bonus attached upon something that's already super-powerful.
Come to think of it, us TRs and GWFs walked the exact same path until upto mod4.
Both classes were deemed OP by everyone else. The devs both tried to nerf the class down without touching the central mechanic, and hence all the rest of support mechanics and encounters and stuff would become weaker and weaker. Both classes experienced loss of efficiency somewhat, but so long as stuff like stealth, or Unstoppable was untouched and left alone with only minor tweaks, both classes still retained much of its "mythological" power it held during mod2 days.
Then mod4 and mod5 hits, and from this point the classes walk a different path. The GWF had its central mechanic gutted down, and from that point on every design flaw and inefficiency of all the rest of the powers and support mechanics, which prior to that moment was simply offset by how powerful the central mechanic was, now suddenly stacks up and ultimately topples the class from demi-godhood to the gutter.
The TRs in mod5 got a different treatment. Everything else which was considered weak, lackluster, useless.... at-wills, encounters, defenses, support mechanics.. they were redesigned and upgraded in their efficiency. According to the devs plan, the design changes should have encompassed a major nerf to repeated stealth-oriented tactics(a la stealth depletion)[/it]. So while this central mechanic was considerably nerfed, the changes/buffs to everything else should have balanced out the TR into a different, more manageable, but more fun to play class.
Well, everyone knows this plan failed, unexpected bugs turned up, stupid decisions (like the implementation of Sigil of the Divine and AP cloaks, SE "double tap", Piercing damage, Knife's Edge, autocrit.. etc etc..) were made, and as a result not only was stealth not nerfed at all, but it actually became stronger. So in the end, instead of "nerf one OP feature, buff all the other weak features", what happened to the TR was "buff the OP feature even more, and then buff all the other weak features as well". A double buff happened in mod5 to TRs.
...
That being said, honestly speaking, IMO the devs had the right direction. What's wrong was how they did it.
They should have nerfed stealth down to just as much how they've nerfed down Unstoppable. With both classes, (1) the 'central mechanic' should have been gutted down, and (2) everything else should have been buffed up so that (3) the class should not have to rely on just one, central, passive, lazy-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> super-defense mechanic, and (4) instead, rely on variety of active powers that are much stronger, efficient, useful versions than they are now.
...
Asking for the old play style, the old tactics that solely relied on back-to-back, endless repetition of Unstoppable with only 4~5 seconds downtime in between, having that one super-mechanic that allows you to survive amongst 3~4 enemies, IMO, its just retro.
IMO GWF players should be asking for a total redesign of the Insti/Destro/Senti paths, massive efficiency tweaking for all the at-wills, and redesigning almost every encounter power so it serves some kind of survival/combat-efficiency related utility much better than the way they are now...
...and ultimately, do something about the curse of the melee classes, the massive self-root during at-wills.
Why did the old, pre-mod5 TRs rely so much on CoS and DF? Because the difficulty of landing basic attacks reliably made every melee-oriented build useless in PvP, hence it was up to depending on a ranged at-will for most basic attacks, and rely on the only melee at-will that allowed mobility during attacks.
Why do the current GWFs find it so difficult to approach ranged enemies that run away from them when Unstoppable is on? Because the old GWFs used to have one-button, repeatable gap-closer in the name of Threatening Rush, which was so darn powerful that it simply obscured the reality of how difficult it is for melee classes to run up to ranged classes and attack/pressure it without having 0-recharge gap-closers. When these disappered, suddenly, everyone realizes how difficult it is to fight with only sprint and "walk to target and try to swing sure strike... and pray it hits before the other guy simply walks away.
...
TL;DR
1. you guys need a total overhaul in ALL your powers except Unstoppable.
2. TRs need their stealth gutted down to current Unstoppable levels.
GWF players should have asked the devs to redesign the class so it was centered on active defenses, not get lured into the endless micro-tweaking "ups and downs game" the devs played between mod3 ~ mod5.
1. you guys need a total overhaul in ALL your powers except Unstoppable.
2. TRs need their stealth gutted down to current Unstoppable levels.
I created a thread a while back about this very thing. IMO the only way youll ever see this happen is to give the GWFs a different Shift mechanic. Imagine a TR without dodge or a CW without blink... Its amazing how crucial stamin dodge is.
This is why the first change needs to be to take either:
1) Mighty Leap
OR
2) Punishing Charge
And use that as the base animation for a new and improved dodge.
Either a "gap closing jump" or a "dash/charge" forward that both would provide CC and Damage immunity. Now the class has a great tool to use as a gap closer or a defensive tool.
THEN they need to buff the benefits of AC across the board so the GWF is overall more tanky outside unstoppable and maybe even remove the DR from unstoppable. Basically unstoppable DR added to the base of the class so unstoppable becomes an offensive tool primarily.
Then reduce the damage of most encounters but 2x-3x the at will damage of the class. Also give more encounters utility. Slows, dazes, stuns, etc.
NOW you would have a moderately tanky melee class that relies mainly on at wills for damage, uses encounters for utility and has a good shift for both offensive and defensive play.
Does that sound familiar? Its how the TR is played. Most of the damage is at will and daily. Uses their encounters as utility etc... Is whT makes the class fun because its using the right tools at the right time. Not spamming tab to get a few seconds to spam encounters for your damage.
Like 60-70% of the GWF's damage should be from at-wills imo. Guts from Berserk would agree. GWF = high at will damage meaning burst, no stacks + high mobility + high HP pool and moderate defence/evasion. A class that puts the pressure on the opponent, a class that makes you run away.. The devs made us, GWFs run away instead
IF they made the GWF to operate like the TR - meaning at wills for damage, encounters for utility and stamina for dodge with their TAB - being useful for offense and defense. The class would FEEL much more fun to play.
As it stands right now, and why its so hard to balance, is you run to a target, deal VERY LITTLE damage while you build stacks, spam "TAB" until you can pop unstoppable and THEN can deal your damage.
Its all a "spam" game. Spam tab, spam encounters, spam shift to close the gap. Only at the BIS level when using the cheese intim build (as I am now) does it require a BIT of timing - making sure you dont CAGI or DS during a dodge roll or something.
Next mod it goes away and we will be back to our Takedown/FLS/IBS(or Daggers) setup that is basically a "stun build" that GWFs are REQUIRED to run because its the only control we have.
If they gave us:
- A true dodge, this would eliminate SOME need for "DR" reliance AND "gap closers"
- Less stacking, less encounter damage and more at will damage - this allows you to MAKE moves like Mighty Leap or "come and get it" or "Punishing Charge" much more meaningful. Add utility to them, add stamina gain or determination gain, or CC effects like SLOWS to targets effected.
- At will damage increase allows for you to use THOSE as a primary source of damage, not having to stack damage stacks, spam the same encounters.
Make the class require more skill to use rather than spam. Its why GWFs are either too OP or UP.
Mod 1 -3 GWFs thrived.
Mod 4-5 GWFs were essentially worthless.
Mod 6 looks like it will lean more towards module 1 in being "ok".
However mark my words, it wont be long until a CW cries here that we have "more control then them" or a TR even (who is not good) cries saying we can stun lock them.
We DONT NEED STUNS we need things like SLOWS, DAZES - on FEATs, on ABILITIES.
Look at Mighty Leap - you could easily add a 2 second stun to this ability and make it a worthwhile utility encounter.
Punishing Charge - could add even a 1 second daze to target struck. Again Utility.
Not so Fast - increase the SLOW to 50%! Increase duration as well, now GWFs would use this + at wills for damage.
Roar - 1 second daze + determination gain.
They wouldnt NEED damage if our at wills did damage. This would make the class MUCH MUCH more fun to play feeling like we have TOOLs we have COMBOs we have OPTIONS.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited April 2015
Feedback:
47,816 Views so i think GWF count as popular class i think devs shoud make gwf bit more balanced and not all time tone it down .
47,816 Views so i think GWF count as popular class i think devs should make gwf bit more balanced and not all time tone it down .
Well as highlighted before, its not just "where the class lies" a midst others because I think once we get the NEW changes (Pre-DR determination Gain and 4 sec stuns with no fear of deflect) I think the class will "perform" well.
But its not just WHERE it is ranked but HOW is it ranked.
Basically the pre-DR determination gain will be a big one to help the class ALOT. But bumping the stun duration to 4 seconds basically just forces EVERY GWF to play an IronVanguard with Takedown + FLS.
The facts of the matter are:
GWFs are OVERLY reliant on damage stacking (Destroyer, DEstroyer Capstone, Mark, Powerful Challenge) that make up WAYYYYYY too much of our damage.
Our damage is too situational with no "control" on the GWFs side of the equation on how to gain the damage stacking. You must NOT get kited to keep Destroyer/Weapon Master stacks up. You must take damage to get Unstoppable to get destroyer stacks up, you MUST use Threatening Rush to Mark the target to get Damage bonus + Powerful Challenge.
So a GWF must have the "stars align" to "work properly"
These damage buffs need to be cut down and the base damage of the class needs to be brought up ALOT. Encounters need to ALL be made viable, not just the two "stun" encounters.
4 - bring back the grand fissure damage OR REWORK YOUR SECUNDARY FUNCTION, TURNING THIS A PRIMARY FUNCTION (put charges and give more 40% damage in my base? 40% less damage deal for enemies. your choice).
5 - better radius-range (reaping strike) for atwills (wms/wicked strike). IF YOU CAN NOT HIT MULTIPLES TARGETS, DONT EXIST REASON TO GWF NO LONGER LOSE DAMAGE HITING MULTIPLES TARGETS. CWS DONT USE MORE SINGULARITY AND GWF CAN NO LONGER TANK, REMEMBER?
to make gwf minimally fun :
1 - mark damage + powerfull challange to the base. I DONT LIKE to use daring shout.
2 - make mark+ powerfull challange a defense thing.
3 - rework battle awareness
PS: like you can see, up the range of atwills are necessary in the past because of x and now receive another reason to exist. you know why? because THAT is a solid change. be solid is still be functional (not op) even if all the rules change or other classes receive some rework.
I would totally do something crazy to get mighty leap leveling adding charges. I think it'd make the skill insanely fun as well as more viable. its got the potential to be a great skill but it just does too low damage and although fun, there's just better choices. if it had charges It'd be much more viable as a mobility encounter, as well as being epic fun.
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited April 2015
Feedback:
I must agree with zacazu GWF must fit in her role Primary Striker (best dPS class in game ) and Secondary defender (if needed he can replace tank role).
Currently there are 3 class TR ,DC , CW hou can beat any GWF dps spec not matter how greaded well played the GWF is .
And on they current state GWF is faar from any tank.
In NWO DC-OP-SW(temp) not any of them have unlimited casting brute healing ,
so they cant keep GWF or any tank alive from the huge brust dmg (what is on prev ).
I dont know but some rumors are hit me today somone got some pm from devs .
total rework of GWF?
Can somone confirm this or is this just a late april fool joke? I hope not .
Crush replied to my PM today and I got good news. The build they have currently on Preview is far from the complete version they have been testing internally. They just didnt have time to implement it all on Preview since they are still finishing up some things. He said that every bit of feedback we gave has been collected, assessed and taken into consideration. As a result once mod 6 is LIVE we will see a vast improvement on all that is Neverwinter starting with classes!
- Total overhaul of GWFs in accordance with player feedback
- Total overhaul of SWs in accordance with player feedback
- Paladins who dont bring shame to the name
- GFs who dont get 1shot by trash mobs in dungeons
Do you mean something like this? . Welcome all to the truth behind GWF-class...
Yeah its pretty pathetic. They try and "compromise" this by giving GWFs feats like Destroyer and the Capstone which give us over 100% damage bonus combined.
Then add things like "Powerful Challenge" that also add to this so we END UP with slightly more damage.
GFs get this as their "base" GWFs have to rely on REALLY CRAPPY "stacking" mechanics to get this.
So the solution would EASILY be to remove our damage stacking, give some other benefit, and increase our BASE skills to the GF "formula" and we will basically END UP with the exact same damage we have now WITHOUT stacking.
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malineffieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
I dont know but some rumors are hit me today somone got some pm from devs .
total rework of GWF?
Can somone confirm this or is this just a late april fool joke? I hope not .
I find somthing on forum is this true?
i hope, yes... gc will create some bad concept and, rather than changing as people complained, will buff and buff until it becomes strong, ie broken (sorry sir, you need agree...).
do what we asked in commom is a good start. (change stacks/mark to a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiig base buff for example).
Yes I believe we have known that for awhile. Back when they switched the fighter's paragons GWFs were doing s ton of dmg with Frontline Surge because it was still using the GF calculation or sth like that.
Anyway the base GWF damage is indeed too low for a class using a freakin' huge piece of metal as a weapon.
Seems like this should be really easy to fix....
Look at the discrepancy between GF and GWF powers. Many of them overlap. So you find a "baseline". We know GWF weapons are what, 30% high than the NEW GF weapons?
So the Crescendo/Flourish/IBS(to Anvil) Difference is an AVERAGE of ABOUT 50%.
So increase ALLLLLLLLL the GWF "BASE" formula powers by 50%. Including at wills.
Then, look at the easiest "damage" bonuses to mitigate.
1) Destroyer FEAT - this provides nearly 50% damage. You can easily REMOVE or REWORK this to "compensate"
2) Mark+CA+Powerful Challenge - again nearly 50%+ damage bonus. Maybe REMOVE the 20% damage bonus mark gives, and REMOVE powerful challenge. That alone would be 35%.
Now the overall "effectiveness" of GWFs is the same. but you removed some of the "bandaid" patches that tried to fix things.
I mean just looking at naked GWF and GF Flourish:
GWF: 583
GF: 937
I mean WTF?! SAME power, GWF has MORE weapon damage.... So why does GF get a 50-60% INCREASE in base damage?
just for the record... the point is not do to gwf the same base of gf, but better.
eliminate stacks+mark just to garantee 50% more damage (in pvp) is a huge nerf for pve and, you know, bargains aways kill the class.
all that need gone (stacks/mark) and the class at least double your base. maybe 150% more. gwf damage is "fine" in pve due to some bug to be fixed soon or late.
I created a thread a while back about this very thing. IMO the only way youll ever see this happen is to give the GWFs a different Shift mechanic. Imagine a TR without dodge or a CW without blink... Its amazing how crucial stamin dodge is.
Me, I'd try and think of some other mechanic than dodge. Personally, I've always been partial to parry/riposte type of mechanic.
Conceptually, it makes sense. GWFs have the image of a "swordmaster" -- heck, even one of their paragons are named so. Being a master of the sword doesn't mean you're always a berserker -- rather if we try and reference actual history, large two-handed swords are actually noted for their capacity of DEFENSE rather than offense, as many media have portrayed so during the years quite incorrectly.
Me, I would like to see something like this with the GWFs.
1. What is the 'parry stance'? the <shift=sprint> function is changed pressing down <shift> now puts the GWF in 'parry stance'
2. What does it do?
Premise: GWF stamina starts regenerating immediately after stamina-using action stops -- like how TRs are currently
the movement speed is reduced by 20%, meaning 80% of the normal moving speed
being in a parry stance grants you immunity from Dazes, Interrupts, Stuns, Prones
being in a parry stance grants you 50% (= 66.6% duration) resistance from Slows and Roots
pressing down <shift> will not activate parry stance if you're already under the duration of Dazes, Interrupts, Stuns
pressing down <shift> will activate parry stance and its effects you're already under the duration of Slows and Roots
being in a parry stance will grant +30% flat damage reduction on top of your defensive stats, which cannot be bypassed by any means (armpen/piercing-proof)
parrying grants only 15% flat damage reduction against DoT type damage, but costs no stamina
being in a parry stance drains your stamina slowly (approximately 30s worth from 100% to 0%)
every incoming attack that you parry, will drain the stamina by 10%
when you let go of <shift> within 1 second of parrying the last attack,
'riposte' will activate
when 'riposte' activates, the GWF counter-attacks with a mighty lunging thrust of his sword that rushes him forward for 20 feet towards the current
when 'riposte' hits, it Interrupts the target 0.5 seconds
'riposte' does not use stamina
3. Allocating augment feats to this function
Heroic Feats
"Nimble Approach": the movement penalty of your parry stance is decreased by 2/4/6/8/10%
"Enduring Swordsman": parrying enemy attacks now cost 1/2/3/4/5% less stamina[/i]
Instigator
"Efficient Footwork": your movement speed penalty while in parry stance is decreased by and 2/4/6/8/10%, and base movement speed is increased by 3/6/9/12/15%
"Touche":your successful riposte now has a 3/6/9/12/15% chance to daze the target for 4 seconds (2 in PvP)
Destroyer
"Brutal Stab":your successful riposte is 10/15/20/25/30% more likely to crit[/i]
"Running Thrust": your riposte distance is increased by 4/8/12/16/20 feet
Sentinel
"Defiant Swordsman": your parrying now resists 2/4/6/8/10% more damage
"Catch a Breath": your successful riposte now heals you for 1/2/3/4/5% of your HP
...Basically, it's something that resembles the charge-up state of Reaping Strike, or somewhat akin to the GF block. You drop into a defensive, parry stance with useful amount of defenses that is impenetrable, thus will mitigate ANYTHING by flat 30% amount. The stamina drains slowly, and then it drains for a sizeable chunk if you actually parry something in that stance, intended so people can't just choose to turtle up everytime and anytime.
Immediately after parrying an attack, releasing <shift> initiates a thrusting attack somewhat akin to Threatening rush, giving parry stance also a gap-closer function. The thrusting attack has a 0.5s Interrupt built into it, designed to do stuff like -- TR comes in swinging its blades for a balatant DF attack -- parry the attacks and land a interrupt to stop the DF (interrupt goes through CC immunity, right?).
Each of the three paths adds a bit different functionality. Instigators have the movement speed penalty removed plus a general movement speed boost as well, so this will be depicting a tactical, technical style of a swordsman, which moves around gracefully at parry stance, and also use the riposte as a CC. Destroyers will have almost always crit with a successful riposte, but the most intriguing function would be its use as a gap-closer, since the riposte distance is twice as longer than other GWFs. Sentinels simply have it more tanky. A small, constant conditional self-heal, pluse a higher DR value on parry itself.
Would be heck lot fun than the stupid sprint we have now, as well as useful..
GWF players, don't play the game the devs are playing. Don't take the "tweaking game" or the "bargain-game" where you up a little stat here, drop a little stat there, change a certain effect duration for X seconds, make minor, small, petty rearrangements with already existing GWF designs.
Mod6 is late now, but there's still the future. Go radical. Ask for radical changes in how the three paths are each played out, ask them to bulldoze all the encounters and totally redesign them. Give yourselves radical, different ideas than just "drop x% here and up y% there" tweaking ideas.
You're not gonna be able to save your GWF classes by playing their game. Give them YOUR game.
resume: parry= be one shoted in red zone in pve and can no longer cach long range classes in pvp.
is a nice idea, but not viable today,
what you can do, despites to replace sprint to DODGE, is add manual casting bars to some encounters (the base is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, so, now you have a escuse) and destroyers/instigators/sentinels will work this casting thing.
one make the casting more fast, other give better final damage bonus and another bring more defense during the casting,
the natural casting, like rp, give 20% of defense+determination gain. "oh, but rp"; rp will be a nice free "semi shield" for sentinels and be more fast/strong for instigators and destroyers.
Comments
being the ONLY PURE MELEE CLASS OF THE GAME gwf should not only have a dodge, but the best of the game. less than that is the dead of the class and the game. the devs dont will read that, but be registered.
There are some benefits of sprint that are still useful that I'd like to remain to stay. Its usually difficult for a heavily armor person to dodge attacks frequently enough, though dodge would very much be useful for the class. I dont see much balance with it.
Instead our defensive capabilities need to be adjusted much more, since part of our role is taking damage. they honestly shouldnt have ever messed with the original Unstoppable DR % that it used to be.
with dodge, our sprint would be replaced and our class would be way too sluggish to position well and accurately. (we do require our attacks to hit or we're SOL )
With sprint we're at least able to engage and disengage from battle fluidly, though we dont have any way of negating significant damage when we see or know its coming.
The problem with current sprint is, to benefit with oncoming damage, we are forced to run around even when its ideal not to. And can often put us in an unfavorable position once we've negated the attack we were meaning to negate, using sprint AGAIN to reposition quickly and correctly to counterattack in order to land a blow.
The problem henceforth is sprint mostly being wasted when being used as a defensive tool, what its supposed to be for, in addition. Our stamina doesnt restore fast enough for this (cause our stamina regeneration is so bad, even when stat allocated for it). The stance being the GWF holding thier weapon out in front of them, with thier free hand braced upon the flat end of the back, to demonstrate they're in a parrying stance.
Example:
the solution I beleive thats best for the class as a whole for long term I beleive to be in favor of Parry Stance. Which initiates when Shift is held with no movement. Draining stamina half as slowly as if sprinting.
And Stamina regeneration for the class as a whole buffed. (can even double the stamina regeneration Strength gives)
The current sprint delay when first engaging sprint then will be justified. Since for that split second from breaking parry stance to going to a sprint will make an opening for themself. The sprint delay will actually make sense for a mechanical and aesthetic reason.
The GWF is an adaptable class. So therefore it should play like one. Active defensive options are nessecary for this. And I think the parrying stance will grant that, and allow GWF's to actively have defensive methods and not have to go around like a mad berserker to benefit from thier passive defensive stuff thats already proven to be lack luster. (which that style fits more of the barbarian class than a seasoned trained fighter of great weapons.)
(yes, for this i speak a lot of times to put 3 charges in roar... is just look a game made to be a fighter)
sprint bonus dont will help in nothing. now or you protect yourself to 100% of damage, or dont have nothing
so... the best is dodge+back grand fissure.
but no... another module in trash.
100% would work well - just like Weapon Master.
Id still rather them just remove the "stacking" of this feat and you can even keep it at 25% however its just a flat buff AT the full max. So you have a 25% chance with each hit to get Destroyer Buff for 4 seconds.
Base Feat: Destroyer: When attacking 3 or more opponents gain "Destroyer" which boosts damage by 9% for 4 seconds.
Each Rank Up: +9%
Destroyers Purpose: Increases damage by 10% and you have a 25% chance to gain Destroyer off any attack.
Basically remove stacking, buff is FULL benefits all else stays the same.
Another alternative to "Shift" could be "Mighty Leap" equivalent...
Jump in the air forward a fixed distance, no "double click" just press shift once, and it "Mighty Leaps" you forward X distance. This could provide control immunity as well as "damage immunity" during the animation. Gives GWFs a gap closer with CC and damage immunity.
With the direction this game is going the ability to have CC/Damage immunity frames is VERY VERY key. Its no wonder why GWF/SW are the WEAKEST PVP classes in the game and share the SAME shift.
GWF - Some version of Punishing Charge or Mighty Leap should be on Shift - a fixed distance gap closer, CC/Damage immunity frames.
SW - Needs to be invisible or un-targetable AS WELL AS damage and CC IMMUNE.
the only problem to this is that it needs to proc. as other's dodge mechanics goes, it procs whenever it wants to proc.
applying/adding %dodge on the existing deflect powers and feats would eliminate the "shift" problem and all the suggested mechanic on how to invoke dodge. yea, for now you can't control dodge but at least our gwf can dodge on its own when rng procs like any other dodging class.
*Determination gain destroyer cap feat not wroking correctly .
"You now gain Determination by dealing damage!" Not all source of dmg increase my Determination gain example: at will and some encounters.
*Unfettered Strikes not increase running speed .
*Countless Scars not increase my DR.
*Grand Fissure something is wrong with this encounter it deals at-will dmg and have 20 sec CD? MY sure strike deal 10-14 k dmg and Grand fissure deal 10-20 k dmg .
*Weapon master class feature rank 4 not working at all i dont gain any stack.
*Destoryer after rased by player or by soul forged or by paladin's passive it stop working,...
*Slam cannot crit .
*Race: Metallic Ancestry Dragonborn
*Metalllic Ancestry: You receive 3% more healing from all spells and abilities. Your Hit Points are increased by 3%. not working for GWF both hp boost & recive healing from abilities like Restoring strike and unstoppable recovery.
to get back to my 45% of lev 60 I would need another 14,000 def or another 34 AC which I doubt you can get with any of the gear they have yet to release
Yep the stats are very very bad, and stats is all a gwf has, unlike the other classes.
They should allow gwf to wear tissue or leather, it gives better defense than mail.
make us wear leather and call us barbarians? maybe then we can get our own forums... lol
the longhouse where people come to talk about all things barbarian
sounds kinda nice... but even then they would probably shove us in with those shady TRs
but seriously why only us cryptic?
TRs? meh deflect bonuses, ITC, stealth
pally? tons of DR, a shield a health pool that would startle an olympic swimmer.
GF? about the same as a pally
GWF? umm well we have a health potion... and umm... well if you are still alive then you can hit unstoppable .. I mean I dont know what you are gonna do when that runs out but um well there ya go class balance....
Id rather have some sort of "weapon Throw" like this (https://youtu.be/TUDzz39ess8?t=58)
You can still make this an "AoE" it would be slightly tighter "grouping" - more like FLS for an "area" but more consistent with the class AND could still have ALL the same benefits - meaning charges + damage bonus for X seconds.
Also this would not jump the GWF backwards.... Which is stupid.
oh the GF looks good but yea dont bother NOTHING I have done on test has added any survivability on test so far a straight up STR CON full sent build feels just as mushy as a straight dps destro STR DEX with 10 pts in instigator you arelooking at the diference between the two of 28.5 damage resist and 29.6 DR and with the capstone of sent you will be at mod 5 DR for a destro GWF so sent is as squishy on test as a destro GWF is on live ony without the lifesteal offset ... so yea nay points toward any survivability will be wasted because with the new stays we can only be a glass cannon period
meh i dont like the thorowing an infinte number of big *** axes out likt that I still think it should just be our weapon we throw in a big wide arc like the cone of hidden daggers.
as for the jump back it just takes some getting used to and sometimes you can even use it as a dodge ... just imagine a GWF has you and is winding up an IBS and boop out of range and heres a face full of daggers for your trouble
Not even one weapon enchant activating on target hit by slam .
Just using logic, and having a discourse on semantics! :cool:
daggers yes... but... is not like "now gwf can work your range-radius/tab to be safe like hrs and trs for example.
The reason being, as long as the central, core mechanic of the class is centered on a power so drastic as Uunstoppable, there is no "middle point". In retrospect, powers like Unstoppable are either one of "it's super strong and you're unkillable or "it's useless, and you're like tofu." No such thing as 'just right' in these type of powers, because unlike in theory, situations in PvP are dynamic. It shifts and changes all the time, so when defenses are setup in these type of mechanics - like Unstoppable, and like stealth, it's either that the mechanic becomes so powerful that it blocks everything and becomes super-OP, or constantly fails under certain circumstances which people learn to create after a time -- and hence just becomes a gaping hole.
I thought it was familiar, and I realized its because us TRs are exactly the same. In so many ways, GWFs and TRs are like twins. The way how the class has/had a extremely powerful, centeral mechanic, which is not just powerful but almost overpoweringly so. Hence, 80%~90% of what the class is is totally centered on that single mechanic, and as a result all the other powers -- at-wills and encounters, are simply inefficient, weak, bland, not very functional, limited utilities that come as an uninspiring bonus attached upon something that's already super-powerful.
Come to think of it, us TRs and GWFs walked the exact same path until upto mod4.
Both classes were deemed OP by everyone else. The devs both tried to nerf the class down without touching the central mechanic, and hence all the rest of support mechanics and encounters and stuff would become weaker and weaker. Both classes experienced loss of efficiency somewhat, but so long as stuff like stealth, or Unstoppable was untouched and left alone with only minor tweaks, both classes still retained much of its "mythological" power it held during mod2 days.
Then mod4 and mod5 hits, and from this point the classes walk a different path. The GWF had its central mechanic gutted down, and from that point on every design flaw and inefficiency of all the rest of the powers and support mechanics, which prior to that moment was simply offset by how powerful the central mechanic was, now suddenly stacks up and ultimately topples the class from demi-godhood to the gutter.
The TRs in mod5 got a different treatment. Everything else which was considered weak, lackluster, useless.... at-wills, encounters, defenses, support mechanics.. they were redesigned and upgraded in their efficiency. According to the devs plan, the design changes should have encompassed a major nerf to repeated stealth-oriented tactics(a la stealth depletion)[/it]. So while this central mechanic was considerably nerfed, the changes/buffs to everything else should have balanced out the TR into a different, more manageable, but more fun to play class.
Well, everyone knows this plan failed, unexpected bugs turned up, stupid decisions (like the implementation of Sigil of the Divine and AP cloaks, SE "double tap", Piercing damage, Knife's Edge, autocrit.. etc etc..) were made, and as a result not only was stealth not nerfed at all, but it actually became stronger. So in the end, instead of "nerf one OP feature, buff all the other weak features", what happened to the TR was "buff the OP feature even more, and then buff all the other weak features as well". A double buff happened in mod5 to TRs.
...
That being said, honestly speaking, IMO the devs had the right direction. What's wrong was how they did it.
They should have nerfed stealth down to just as much how they've nerfed down Unstoppable. With both classes, (1) the 'central mechanic' should have been gutted down, and (2) everything else should have been buffed up so that (3) the class should not have to rely on just one, central, passive, lazy-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> super-defense mechanic, and (4) instead, rely on variety of active powers that are much stronger, efficient, useful versions than they are now.
...
Asking for the old play style, the old tactics that solely relied on back-to-back, endless repetition of Unstoppable with only 4~5 seconds downtime in between, having that one super-mechanic that allows you to survive amongst 3~4 enemies, IMO, its just retro.
IMO GWF players should be asking for a total redesign of the Insti/Destro/Senti paths, massive efficiency tweaking for all the at-wills, and redesigning almost every encounter power so it serves some kind of survival/combat-efficiency related utility much better than the way they are now...
...and ultimately, do something about the curse of the melee classes, the massive self-root during at-wills.
Why did the old, pre-mod5 TRs rely so much on CoS and DF? Because the difficulty of landing basic attacks reliably made every melee-oriented build useless in PvP, hence it was up to depending on a ranged at-will for most basic attacks, and rely on the only melee at-will that allowed mobility during attacks.
Why do the current GWFs find it so difficult to approach ranged enemies that run away from them when Unstoppable is on? Because the old GWFs used to have one-button, repeatable gap-closer in the name of Threatening Rush, which was so darn powerful that it simply obscured the reality of how difficult it is for melee classes to run up to ranged classes and attack/pressure it without having 0-recharge gap-closers. When these disappered, suddenly, everyone realizes how difficult it is to fight with only sprint and "walk to target and try to swing sure strike... and pray it hits before the other guy simply walks away.
...
TL;DR
1. you guys need a total overhaul in ALL your powers except Unstoppable.
2. TRs need their stealth gutted down to current Unstoppable levels.
I created a thread a while back about this very thing. IMO the only way youll ever see this happen is to give the GWFs a different Shift mechanic. Imagine a TR without dodge or a CW without blink... Its amazing how crucial stamin dodge is.
This is why the first change needs to be to take either:
1) Mighty Leap
OR
2) Punishing Charge
And use that as the base animation for a new and improved dodge.
Either a "gap closing jump" or a "dash/charge" forward that both would provide CC and Damage immunity. Now the class has a great tool to use as a gap closer or a defensive tool.
THEN they need to buff the benefits of AC across the board so the GWF is overall more tanky outside unstoppable and maybe even remove the DR from unstoppable. Basically unstoppable DR added to the base of the class so unstoppable becomes an offensive tool primarily.
Then reduce the damage of most encounters but 2x-3x the at will damage of the class. Also give more encounters utility. Slows, dazes, stuns, etc.
NOW you would have a moderately tanky melee class that relies mainly on at wills for damage, uses encounters for utility and has a good shift for both offensive and defensive play.
Does that sound familiar? Its how the TR is played. Most of the damage is at will and daily. Uses their encounters as utility etc... Is whT makes the class fun because its using the right tools at the right time. Not spamming tab to get a few seconds to spam encounters for your damage.
IF they made the GWF to operate like the TR - meaning at wills for damage, encounters for utility and stamina for dodge with their TAB - being useful for offense and defense. The class would FEEL much more fun to play.
As it stands right now, and why its so hard to balance, is you run to a target, deal VERY LITTLE damage while you build stacks, spam "TAB" until you can pop unstoppable and THEN can deal your damage.
Its all a "spam" game. Spam tab, spam encounters, spam shift to close the gap. Only at the BIS level when using the cheese intim build (as I am now) does it require a BIT of timing - making sure you dont CAGI or DS during a dodge roll or something.
Next mod it goes away and we will be back to our Takedown/FLS/IBS(or Daggers) setup that is basically a "stun build" that GWFs are REQUIRED to run because its the only control we have.
If they gave us:
- A true dodge, this would eliminate SOME need for "DR" reliance AND "gap closers"
- Less stacking, less encounter damage and more at will damage - this allows you to MAKE moves like Mighty Leap or "come and get it" or "Punishing Charge" much more meaningful. Add utility to them, add stamina gain or determination gain, or CC effects like SLOWS to targets effected.
- At will damage increase allows for you to use THOSE as a primary source of damage, not having to stack damage stacks, spam the same encounters.
Make the class require more skill to use rather than spam. Its why GWFs are either too OP or UP.
Mod 1 -3 GWFs thrived.
Mod 4-5 GWFs were essentially worthless.
Mod 6 looks like it will lean more towards module 1 in being "ok".
However mark my words, it wont be long until a CW cries here that we have "more control then them" or a TR even (who is not good) cries saying we can stun lock them.
We DONT NEED STUNS we need things like SLOWS, DAZES - on FEATs, on ABILITIES.
Look at Mighty Leap - you could easily add a 2 second stun to this ability and make it a worthwhile utility encounter.
Punishing Charge - could add even a 1 second daze to target struck. Again Utility.
Not so Fast - increase the SLOW to 50%! Increase duration as well, now GWFs would use this + at wills for damage.
Roar - 1 second daze + determination gain.
They wouldnt NEED damage if our at wills did damage. This would make the class MUCH MUCH more fun to play feeling like we have TOOLs we have COMBOs we have OPTIONS.
47,816 Views so i think GWF count as popular class i think devs shoud make gwf bit more balanced and not all time tone it down .
Well as highlighted before, its not just "where the class lies" a midst others because I think once we get the NEW changes (Pre-DR determination Gain and 4 sec stuns with no fear of deflect) I think the class will "perform" well.
But its not just WHERE it is ranked but HOW is it ranked.
Basically the pre-DR determination gain will be a big one to help the class ALOT. But bumping the stun duration to 4 seconds basically just forces EVERY GWF to play an IronVanguard with Takedown + FLS.
The facts of the matter are:
GWFs are OVERLY reliant on damage stacking (Destroyer, DEstroyer Capstone, Mark, Powerful Challenge) that make up WAYYYYYY too much of our damage.
Our damage is too situational with no "control" on the GWFs side of the equation on how to gain the damage stacking. You must NOT get kited to keep Destroyer/Weapon Master stacks up. You must take damage to get Unstoppable to get destroyer stacks up, you MUST use Threatening Rush to Mark the target to get Damage bonus + Powerful Challenge.
So a GWF must have the "stars align" to "work properly"
These damage buffs need to be cut down and the base damage of the class needs to be brought up ALOT. Encounters need to ALL be made viable, not just the two "stun" encounters.
1 - DODGE
2 - determination by damage deal to all trees
3 - rework instigator capstone.
4 - bring back the grand fissure damage OR REWORK YOUR SECUNDARY FUNCTION, TURNING THIS A PRIMARY FUNCTION (put charges and give more 40% damage in my base? 40% less damage deal for enemies. your choice).
5 - better radius-range (reaping strike) for atwills (wms/wicked strike). IF YOU CAN NOT HIT MULTIPLES TARGETS, DONT EXIST REASON TO GWF NO LONGER LOSE DAMAGE HITING MULTIPLES TARGETS. CWS DONT USE MORE SINGULARITY AND GWF CAN NO LONGER TANK, REMEMBER?
to make gwf minimally fun :
1 - mark damage + powerfull challange to the base. I DONT LIKE to use daring shout.
2 - make mark+ powerfull challange a defense thing.
3 - rework battle awareness
PS: like you can see, up the range of atwills are necessary in the past because of x and now receive another reason to exist. you know why? because THAT is a solid change. be solid is still be functional (not op) even if all the rules change or other classes receive some rework.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
I must agree with zacazu GWF must fit in her role Primary Striker (best dPS class in game ) and Secondary defender (if needed he can replace tank role).
Currently there are 3 class TR ,DC , CW hou can beat any GWF dps spec not matter how greaded well played the GWF is .
And on they current state GWF is faar from any tank.
In NWO DC-OP-SW(temp) not any of them have unlimited casting brute healing ,
so they cant keep GWF or any tank alive from the huge brust dmg (what is on prev ).
I dont know but some rumors are hit me today somone got some pm from devs .
total rework of GWF?
Can somone confirm this or is this just a late april fool joke? I hope not .
I find somthing on forum is this true?
Yeah its pretty pathetic. They try and "compromise" this by giving GWFs feats like Destroyer and the Capstone which give us over 100% damage bonus combined.
Then add things like "Powerful Challenge" that also add to this so we END UP with slightly more damage.
GFs get this as their "base" GWFs have to rely on REALLY CRAPPY "stacking" mechanics to get this.
So the solution would EASILY be to remove our damage stacking, give some other benefit, and increase our BASE skills to the GF "formula" and we will basically END UP with the exact same damage we have now WITHOUT stacking.
April fool
i hope, yes... gc will create some bad concept and, rather than changing as people complained, will buff and buff until it becomes strong, ie broken (sorry sir, you need agree...).
do what we asked in commom is a good start. (change stacks/mark to a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiig base buff for example).
Seems like this should be really easy to fix....
Look at the discrepancy between GF and GWF powers. Many of them overlap. So you find a "baseline". We know GWF weapons are what, 30% high than the NEW GF weapons?
So the Crescendo/Flourish/IBS(to Anvil) Difference is an AVERAGE of ABOUT 50%.
So increase ALLLLLLLLL the GWF "BASE" formula powers by 50%. Including at wills.
Then, look at the easiest "damage" bonuses to mitigate.
1) Destroyer FEAT - this provides nearly 50% damage. You can easily REMOVE or REWORK this to "compensate"
2) Mark+CA+Powerful Challenge - again nearly 50%+ damage bonus. Maybe REMOVE the 20% damage bonus mark gives, and REMOVE powerful challenge. That alone would be 35%.
Now the overall "effectiveness" of GWFs is the same. but you removed some of the "bandaid" patches that tried to fix things.
I mean just looking at naked GWF and GF Flourish:
GWF: 583
GF: 937
I mean WTF?! SAME power, GWF has MORE weapon damage.... So why does GF get a 50-60% INCREASE in base damage?
eliminate stacks+mark just to garantee 50% more damage (in pvp) is a huge nerf for pve and, you know, bargains aways kill the class.
all that need gone (stacks/mark) and the class at least double your base. maybe 150% more. gwf damage is "fine" in pve due to some bug to be fixed soon or late.
ps:
Me, I'd try and think of some other mechanic than dodge. Personally, I've always been partial to parry/riposte type of mechanic.
Conceptually, it makes sense. GWFs have the image of a "swordmaster" -- heck, even one of their paragons are named so. Being a master of the sword doesn't mean you're always a berserker -- rather if we try and reference actual history, large two-handed swords are actually noted for their capacity of DEFENSE rather than offense, as many media have portrayed so during the years quite incorrectly.
Me, I would like to see something like this with the GWFs.
1. What is the 'parry stance'?
the <shift=sprint> function is changed
pressing down <shift> now puts the GWF in 'parry stance'
2. What does it do?
Premise: GWF stamina starts regenerating immediately after stamina-using action stops -- like how TRs are currently
the movement speed is reduced by 20%, meaning 80% of the normal moving speed
being in a parry stance grants you immunity from Dazes, Interrupts, Stuns, Prones
being in a parry stance grants you 50% (= 66.6% duration) resistance from Slows and Roots
pressing down <shift> will not activate parry stance if you're already under the duration of Dazes, Interrupts, Stuns
pressing down <shift> will activate parry stance and its effects you're already under the duration of Slows and Roots
being in a parry stance will grant +30% flat damage reduction on top of your defensive stats, which cannot be bypassed by any means (armpen/piercing-proof)
parrying grants only 15% flat damage reduction against DoT type damage, but costs no stamina
being in a parry stance drains your stamina slowly (approximately 30s worth from 100% to 0%)
every incoming attack that you parry, will drain the stamina by 10%
when you let go of <shift> within 1 second of parrying the last attack,
'riposte' will activatewhen 'riposte' activates, the GWF counter-attacks with a mighty lunging thrust of his sword that rushes him forward for 20 feet towards the current
when 'riposte' hits, it Interrupts the target 0.5 seconds
'riposte' does not use stamina
3. Allocating augment feats to this function
Heroic Feats
"Nimble Approach": the movement penalty of your parry stance is decreased by 2/4/6/8/10%
"Enduring Swordsman": parrying enemy attacks now cost 1/2/3/4/5% less stamina[/i]
Instigator
"Efficient Footwork": your movement speed penalty while in parry stance is decreased by and 2/4/6/8/10%, and base movement speed is increased by 3/6/9/12/15%
"Touche":your successful riposte now has a 3/6/9/12/15% chance to daze the target for 4 seconds (2 in PvP)
Destroyer
"Brutal Stab":your successful riposte is 10/15/20/25/30% more likely to crit[/i]
"Running Thrust": your riposte distance is increased by 4/8/12/16/20 feet
Sentinel
"Defiant Swordsman": your parrying now resists 2/4/6/8/10% more damage
"Catch a Breath": your successful riposte now heals you for 1/2/3/4/5% of your HP
...Basically, it's something that resembles the charge-up state of Reaping Strike, or somewhat akin to the GF block. You drop into a defensive, parry stance with useful amount of defenses that is impenetrable, thus will mitigate ANYTHING by flat 30% amount. The stamina drains slowly, and then it drains for a sizeable chunk if you actually parry something in that stance, intended so people can't just choose to turtle up everytime and anytime.
Immediately after parrying an attack, releasing <shift> initiates a thrusting attack somewhat akin to Threatening rush, giving parry stance also a gap-closer function. The thrusting attack has a 0.5s Interrupt built into it, designed to do stuff like -- TR comes in swinging its blades for a balatant DF attack -- parry the attacks and land a interrupt to stop the DF (interrupt goes through CC immunity, right?).
Each of the three paths adds a bit different functionality. Instigators have the movement speed penalty removed plus a general movement speed boost as well, so this will be depicting a tactical, technical style of a swordsman, which moves around gracefully at parry stance, and also use the riposte as a CC. Destroyers will have almost always crit with a successful riposte, but the most intriguing function would be its use as a gap-closer, since the riposte distance is twice as longer than other GWFs. Sentinels simply have it more tanky. A small, constant conditional self-heal, pluse a higher DR value on parry itself.
Would be heck lot fun than the stupid sprint we have now, as well as useful..
GWF players, don't play the game the devs are playing. Don't take the "tweaking game" or the "bargain-game" where you up a little stat here, drop a little stat there, change a certain effect duration for X seconds, make minor, small, petty rearrangements with already existing GWF designs.
Mod6 is late now, but there's still the future. Go radical. Ask for radical changes in how the three paths are each played out, ask them to bulldoze all the encounters and totally redesign them. Give yourselves radical, different ideas than just "drop x% here and up y% there" tweaking ideas.
You're not gonna be able to save your GWF classes by playing their game. Give them YOUR game.
is a nice idea, but not viable today,
what you can do, despites to replace sprint to DODGE, is add manual casting bars to some encounters (the base is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, so, now you have a escuse) and destroyers/instigators/sentinels will work this casting thing.
one make the casting more fast, other give better final damage bonus and another bring more defense during the casting,
the natural casting, like rp, give 20% of defense+determination gain. "oh, but rp"; rp will be a nice free "semi shield" for sentinels and be more fast/strong for instigators and destroyers.