Id prefer we first balance the class out. Cmon, you guys BOTH know they are not even remotely thinking about this especially this module. IF this were to happen it would be when they add a 3rd option, which would just add not remove IV.
Id rather they give us better encounter options - for instance:
"Punishing Charge" - Reworked to a "Bull Charge" Like mechanic. Make the encounter only usable with a target, make it a significantly increased distance (30-50'), make it STUN the target when you hit them. And make it a BASE CD of around 10 seconds (which would put it around 7-8 with recovery etc)
Now GWFs have a good mechanic like GFs to close the gap, allowing them to use sprint more for defensive options rather than feeling they need it to CATCH targets.
If you then add "Mark" to Flourish, NOW SM is actually useful with both a gap closer and a strong encounter that Marks.
All of this still wont fix many of the other issues: 1) Temp HP - not enough with HD, Based on Damage Boosts which is bad.
2) Stacking - this is the biggest issue with GWFs atm. With: Weapon Master, Destroyer, Destroyers Purpose, Instagator Capstone.
3) Determination Gain - Needs to be BOTH based on damage taken and SOMETHING the GWF can do to gain determinaton - not solely based on what your enemies do.
4) Stamina Gain - even increasing Strength to provide 2% Stamina gain for each point (and also 2% damage as well) would be a significant improvement, and combined with a punishing Charge rework the class would be in a solid spot.
I also liked the other ideas in this thread to: 1) Unstoppable/Sprint instead of DR grant 100% deflect chance
2) Sentinel Aegis - instead of 20% more defense gives 25% more deflect severity.
3) Intimidation - Copy Fire of the Gods, Paste onto Intimidation Feat however only difference is it still procs off CAGI/DS rather than crits.
All of the above do many things and would make the class MUCH more desirable to play both in PVE and PVP.
I don't know, man, maybe in pvp this class is that bad, I don't pvp in this game. But in pve content my only concerns (as sentinel) were lack of threat generation and lack of hard taunts. First is fixed in next module (I hope), second well maybe someday... I'm not a pro gwf expert, but never had real problems with damage mitigation, temp hp and all that. Though any buffs are good and welcomed!
I don't know, man, maybe in pvp this class is that bad, I don't pvp in this game. But in pve content my only concerns (as sentinel) were lack of threat generation and lack of hard taunts. First is fixed in next module (I hope), second well maybe someday... I'm not a pro gwf expert, but never had real problems with damage mitigation, temp hp and all that. Though any buffs are good and welcomed!
I think this is precisely the issue and I wrote a detailed post about this pages back. Maybe it was removed.
Things like Temp HP will not be noticed in PVE because PVE does not have healing depression. You also - MOST of the time will be playing PVE content with a healer, have the ability to use more than 1 potion (I have tons of stone of health that I use when low) and also PVE mobs do not have damage that bypasses ALL our DR.
In PVP you get 1/2 the Temp HP, because of the way domination is played you probably dont have a pocket healer (this is turning into how we WILL have to play PVP, which well just end up with noone premade Quing with a GWf since you can just take a CW instead to spit out more DPS, have more control and not be a s squishy - or a GF which provides countless party utility.) You also have damage sources that bypass our DR so things like Sprint or Unstoppable make zero difference where as in PVE you can feel confident if you ARE in sprint or ARE in Unstoppable you safe.
You also have a major difference that a PVE mob does not "wait" until out of Unstoppable to attack. a competent PVP player WILL wait to blow their Ice Knife for example on you so it not only prones but does ALOT more damage.
So to the above, this is why we need BETTER TEMP HP - that is also not tied to Damage bonuses. So that we CAN sustain during those moment. Thats the issue of this whole thing. The Temp HP we get in PVE is fine now, but when you add healing depression AND un-mitigatable damage you cant do anything about it making our class worthless.
For PVE Destroyers, not tanks, this is the other issue: Stacking. Its VERY easy to rush a group of mobs, do an AoE swing - gain a stack of Destroyer AND get them all to attack you. Boom, you just build quite a bit of determination, and swing 2x more and you are full destroyer stacks and with them attacking YOU you build determination thus allowing you to then build destroyer stacks (capstone) up as well. Within seconds your fully buffed up.
In PVP you cannot (generally) do an AoE attack on 3+ people to gain a stack. Thus you rely on the low chance of (25%?) to gain a stack of destroyer in PVP - which is fine EXCEPT all a CW needs to do is say, Repel you, and even if you DID sprint and catch back up to that CW, theres a HIGH chance with that 25% you wont get another stack of Destroyer meaning the first stack falls off - even if you DO get to attack and the CW just sits there and face tanks it, meaning its impossible to get and maintain these stacks - which is a LARGE portion of our DPS.
Ontop of that, you cannot FORCE players to attack you, so you will neither be building Destroyer Feat stacks NOR Destroyer capstone stacks since we are REQUIRED to be IN unstoppable to gain these stacks.
IF you ARE being attacked, chances are you are being controled - some way or another, which does NOT build determination unless you take enough HP loss. Most smart players will save all their damage for Bursts. Meaning when you finally DO get a chance to attack you probably have 70% or less HP. You then get a very small window to even get your destroyer stacks up, thats if you dont get kited. Ontop of that, <70% HP opens you up for a TRs SE which crits for 70k+ HP and Execs hit even harder under 70%, since it bypasses all your DR being IN unstoppable or even sprinting or BOTH wont mean a thing, where as in PVE if you were sprinting + Unstoppable you would take almost zero damage.
Stamina Gain is another one. In most PVE encounters you dont need much stamina. You typically sprint out in front of a group to get "agro" but then, more or less, stand still spamming attacks. When that encounter is done you probably have most of your stamina back up.
Go into a PVP match though, try and catch a CW. Chances are you will have VERY little "uptime" attacking them and MOST of your time will just be spent being kited around while they DoT you to death. Or a TR where the only small window you get to attack they are typically in ITC since they run nearly 2x your speed in stealth.
These are "specific" examples but there is one for nearly any class we face. The fact of the matter is GWFs in PVP are in a POOR spot in PVP that CANNOT and WILL NOT be visible from PVE content.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Feedback squishy warrior:
This is joke with 20% base dr +12k temp hp +full stack tans negation enchant + full unstoppable one hit and i die.
Somthing is total wrong i dont get it dragons have armor pen ?
Where is my missing 60% dr ?
Aslo another ninja nerf to destroyer cap feat unstoppable gain from every 6' hit or encounter ?
PS: can someone upload some short vid from destroyer determination gain in mod 5 and in mod 6 to give better feedback cuz w/o it i cant prove the bug or "nerf?".
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited March 2015
i play every class, GWF is near the bottom at this point for PVP (sw might be worse) and of middling quality for certain situations for PVE (if you go destroyer, as sent is worthless again for pve)
This class is EXACTLY were trs were in pve a few mods back, a single STATIC target dps machine.. great so bosses that dont move much, or dont have many adds we will do ok with that one circumstance.
ITs a far cry from the death wielding machine this class was. ITs not even the rework, if they gave us ALL that rework back, this game has changed and this class needs some updating to get it back to further usefulness.
Need more on the sport targeting, more CC control back, some more Defense survibility and more AOE damage.
I dont mind giving up any range, if we can move again to targets (give me unlimited threatening rush and remove that annoying delay on it)
BTW dont for a second pretend sprint is fixed, its STILL not fixed compared to the SW, there is a hitch on it as well. Wicked strike, still gives a hitch as well.
The class is less respondent, less damaging, less controlling, less everything that it used to be.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Just to avoid incorrect feedback the weapon dmg is huge buffed after you enter in lvl 70+ zone .
So the GWFs dps give you total wrong picture the true dps is if you hit combat dummy in trade of blades.
I think its a bug GWf have the biggest weapon dmg in game but other classes dont get so huge base weapon dmg boost in lvl 70 zone .
CW have the second biggest weapon dmg in the game.
But the difference in normal 59 areas are not so huge only 200 and not 800.
i play every class, GWF is near the bottom at this point for PVP (sw might be worse) and of middling quality for certain situations for PVE (if you go destroyer, as sent is worthless again for pve)
This class is EXACTLY were trs were in pve a few mods back, a single STATIC target dps machine.. great so bosses that dont move much, or dont have many adds we will do ok with that one circumstance.
ITs a far cry from the death wielding machine this class was. ITs not even the rework, if they gave us ALL that rework back, this game has changed and this class needs some updating to get it back to further usefulness.
Need more on the sport targeting, more CC control back, some more Defense survibility and more AOE damage.
I dont mind giving up any range, if we can move again to targets (give me unlimited threatening rush and remove that annoying delay on it)
BTW dont for a second pretend sprint is fixed, its STILL not fixed compared to the SW, there is a hitch on it as well. Wicked strike, still gives a hitch as well.
The class is less respondent, less damaging, less controlling, less everything that it used to be.
Thanks for the great feedback and I couldnt agree more with this. The only class that is worse off in PVP is the SW. Whats funny is the TWO worst classes share the same "shift" ability - maybe thats a sign that its clearly NOT on par with other classes and needs a rework (+100% deflect has been proposed)
To the Threat Rush point - I agree as well. The entire purpose this was changed was because of the "impossible to kite" mentality. You could have done ONE of the two fixes - 3 charges OR the "delay". TBH BOTH is just a flat out OVER nerf.
FYI - The "3 charges" doesnt REALLY affect PVP play, just makes it annoying as HECK in PVE. The delay renders the entire at will NEARLY useless as by the time the delay is over, you could have just moved to the target without it (given the small range). The only benefit to using it and why its mandatory? Its 'mark'. If GWFs had a different, more reliable way of marking targets NOONE would use Threat Rush.
The big issue and why I (and many others) are raising such a stink about this class is two fold:
1) We have BEEN at the bottom of the 'pile' for the last TWO modules now. Started with the module 4 nerfs that lastd THROUGH module 5, we only got PURE LUCK that we were given Intimidation which quickly become THE ONLY viable PVP build because of the mawssive 14k+ Power Stacking ability. If this feat alone were merely nerfed a tiny bit more, it would have rendered the class COMPLETELY useless (which is what is happening in module 6)
2) We do NOT - I repeat DO NOT want a complete overhaul on our class like you did BOTH module 3 and then module 4.
PLEASE - LISTEN this time. I was one that spoke up against ALL the module 3 buffs. But noone listened (and it wasnt just me). I then ALSO posted AGAINST all the module 4 nerfs - didnt listen.
All thats happened is overbuff overnerf this class when NEITHER is required. I dont want to build a GWF, Deck him out in gear that we have to HEAVILY invest into to have it re-worked next module when the class is finally "fixed".
Just to avoid incorrect feedback the weapon dmg is huge buffed after you enter in lvl 70+ zone .
So the GWFs dps give you total wrong picture the true dps is if you hit combat dummy in trade of blades.
I think its a bug GWf have the biggest weapon dmg in game but other classes dont get so huge base weapon dmg boost in lvl 70 zone .
CW have the second biggest weapon dmg in the game.
But the difference in normal 59 areas are not so huge only 200 and not 800.
The damage buff is if you are under 70, when you are 70 its not like that..
Feels like they made the scaling in such a way to hide how overboard they went with the new difficulty level. The whole Preview server is compromised, making alot of feedback irrelevant.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Feedback:
With all respect i want to ask the developer team to make some changes on the defensive mechanism on the following class:
Change the damage resistane on the Unstoppable in the case of Destroyer/Instigator Great Weapon Fighters to 15-30% but it is also should work like the Shield Spell on the Control Wizard or the Block of the Guardian Fighter, further more give the same mechanism to the Sprint with 30% damage resistance.
Do not change the numbers on the Great Weapon Fighter Sentinel but give it the same mechanism like the Shield on the CW or the Block on the Guardian Fighter. This way the Sentinel would be able to tank as it was intented in the 1st place
My suggestion should fix the promblems caused by the Piercing mechanism, this way it would be completly acceptable and it also would be able to balance out both the PvP and the PvE part of this game. It would solve the one hit kill problems in the game further more it would balance out the Life Steal and Regeneration loss .
I come up with this idea based on the feedback of the other players.
With all respect i want to ask the developer team to make some changes on the defensive mechanism on the following classes:
Buff&change the damage resistance bonus on the Scouge Warlock's Shadow Slip up to 50% and let it calculated like the Block of the Guardian Fighter or the Shield Spell on the Control Wizard.
Change the damage resistane on the Unstoppable in the case of Destroyer/Instigator Great Weapon Fighters to 15-30% but it is also should work like the Shield Spell on the Control Wizard or the Block of the Guardian Fighter, further more give the same mechanism to the Sprint with 30% damage resistance.
Do not change the numbers on the Great Weapon Fighter Sentinel but give it the same mechanism like the Shield on the CW or the Block on the Guardian Fighter. This way the Sentinel would be able to tank as it was intented in the 1st place
The Paladin's Sanctuary supposed to work like the Block of the Guardian Fighter or Shield Spell on the Control Wizard .
If you're trying to suggest to change the coding of unstoppable to be the same with Control Wizard's Shield, I agree! unstoppable's DR should be like a CW's shield, can't be debuffed and can't be affected by armor penetration. this would give a noticeable buff to survivability but still not broken (cause even CWs with 100% uptime of shield still dies)
With all respect i want to ask the developer team to make some changes on the defensive mechanism on the following classes:
Buff&change the damage resistance bonus on the Scouge Warlock's Shadow Slip up to 50% and let it calculated like the Block of the Guardian Fighter or the Shield Spell on the Control Wizard.
Change the damage resistane on the Unstoppable in the case of Destroyer/Instigator Great Weapon Fighters to 15-30% but it is also should work like the Shield Spell on the Control Wizard or the Block of the Guardian Fighter, further more give the same mechanism to the Sprint with 30% damage resistance.
Do not change the numbers on the Great Weapon Fighter Sentinel but give it the same mechanism like the Shield on the CW or the Block on the Guardian Fighter. This way the Sentinel would be able to tank as it was intented in the 1st place
The Paladin's Sanctuary supposed to work like the Block of the Guardian Fighter or Shield Spell on the Control Wizard .
My suggestion should fix the promblems caused by the Piercing mechanism, this way it would be completly acceptable and it also would be able to balance out both the PvP and the PvE part of this game. It would solve the one hit kill problems in the game further more it would balance out the Life Steal and Regeneration loss .
I come up with this idea based on the feedback of the other players.
Thnx for reading this .
This is a very elegant solution, Kudos! I like it alot and wouldnt be too hard to code AND seems VERY reasonably fair both for unstoppable AND sprint. A 15-30% and 30% DR boost on its OWN layer of DR.
I still hold personally that all he other areas still need addressing but this would help against piercing damage from TRs (like SE).
1 - why this class is not being adapted for this module?
second datas, an instigator against tiamat for example, need to lose more than half million in hp (5x 100k) to active your capstone.
... i dont will speak about Countless Scars...
are facts; no troll here.
2 - what is the advantage of the class? that i have by far superior to the other classes? the reason to choose a gwf, a off tank dyingin one hit in this game when the MAGE can mitigate 80% of the enemies damage/bring a lot of utility and do a bizarre damage?
are facts.
3 - why our arp, that potentially was 50% of necessary to necessary for pve dropped to 1/5 or 1/10% in this curves w/o adjuste?
4 - the most important: why battle fury, that should up my damage and down my defense - what would have been a solution in the past ... if you guys had stopped for 5 minutes to read the Wikpedia - now serve to giveme more sprint and temporary hp BUT the damage itself is a max of 25%?
last feedback (deleted by a mod... i think they just delete interesting post due they fear we can get some really nice buffs):
Roar: If a target is struck by "roar", the target is stunned for 2 seconds. If the target is casting a power (channel powers like Astral Shield, Icy Terrain, KV, Path of the Blade, Thorn ward, etc), that power is cancelled and locked for 10 secs
Punishing charge: Increase "dashed" distance and +20% to damage. If a target is struck by Punishing Charge while they are casting a power, even channeled ones (read above), that power is cancelled, put into CD and the target takes double damage
I like the idea, I dunno about "locked for 10 seconds" but atleast put BACK on CD. I mean most abilities are 8 seconds + CD so it would essentially be the same thing... except currently its merely interrupted. I personally would also like them to code Roar with an "interrupt" meaning a .5 second "stun" if you will. So it literally interrupts targets doing ANYTHING briefly - be it re casting or even running and must re-press the button to move. This is how it was pre module 1 even. You Roar and it "stops" them and must re-cast.
Nice idea on Punishing Charge- although if it does the same thing as Roar why would anyone want Roar? One of the biggest issues we have is gap closers. Imagine how bad a GF would feel without lunging strike or bul charge. it would be worthless. IMO what we need is an encounter that is also a good gap closer - LIKE lunging strike or LIKE Bull Charge.
Funny thing about both those is they are some of the hardest hitting GF encounters AND are gap closers - which is what makes a GF harder to actually "kite" than even a GWF who has sprint.
If Punishing Charge was turning into a "Bull Charge" like mechanic, with a longer range, target to cast, and massive increased damage and even a "stun" at the end of the ability (instead of a prone like Bull Charge) This would GREATLY help the class.
I like the idea, I dunno about "locked for 10 seconds" but atleast put BACK on CD. I mean most abilities are 8 seconds + CD so it would essentially be the same thing... except currently its merely interrupted. I personally would also like them to code Roar with an "interrupt" meaning a .5 second "stun" if you will. So it literally interrupts targets doing ANYTHING briefly - be it re casting or even running and must re-press the button to move. This is how it was pre module 1 even. You Roar and it "stops" them and must re-cast.
Nice idea on Punishing Charge- although if it does the same thing as Roar why would anyone want Roar? One of the biggest issues we have is gap closers. Imagine how bad a GF would feel without lunging strike or bul charge. it would be worthless. IMO what we need is an encounter that is also a good gap closer - LIKE lunging strike or LIKE Bull Charge.
Funny thing about both those is they are some of the hardest hitting GF encounters AND are gap closers - which is what makes a GF harder to actually "kite" than even a GWF who has sprint.
If Punishing Charge was turning into a "Bull Charge" like mechanic, with a longer range, target to cast, and massive increased damage and even a "stun" at the end of the ability (instead of a prone like Bull Charge) This would GREATLY help the class.
Changing punishing charge into a bull charge would be great. we need targetted stuns and CC. and ways to land our skills easier. I've taken this from a D&D wiki based on some fighter powers, that could be interesting to use / modify. '
With force the battle I'm thinking of it as a "buff daily" something that could r give us fast regenerating determination (like lurkers assault) and buff our damage by a good % and give us % Temp hp per second. A true buff daily that gives us potential to tank/ and deal damage while taking little damage
I've also found it weird that we don't have Anvil of doom. and GF does. The wording of it makes it sound like a Power a 2 handed fighter would use
Anvil of Doom Fighter Attack 13 Your weapon makes a satisfying clunk as it connects with your
enemy’s skull.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
dazed until the end of your next turn.
Other intersting dailies / powers that could replace things we dont use / mechanics can be used to improve us
Boundless Endurance Fighter Utility 2
You shake off the worst of your wounds.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration 2 + your Constitution modifier
when you are bloodied.
Vorpal Tornado Fighter Attack 17
You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon
about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and
knocking them down.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. You push the target
1 square, and it is knocked prone.
Warrior’s Challenge Fighter Attack 17
You land a mighty blow that causes your foe to stagger backward.
With a wicked grin, you hoist your weapon and flash it menacingly
at other enemies nearby.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 2 squares.
Special: All of your enemies within 2 squares of the target are
marked until the end of your next turn.
GWF ( and Fighters in general) have a LOT more regeneration and healing and Prones/stuns in 4e. GWF at the moment has 1 prone and 2 stuns, yet the 2 stuns are unreliable to land As we can see by the above skills, we are really missing out on a lot of the potential and power of what using a two handed weapon fighter should be about.
Instead of improvements I only see the encounters getting nerfed, damage getting nerfed, as well as feats getting nerfed. r.i.p Might blade ye barley we knew you.
It was nerfed? WHY!? Did a CW cry about it!?
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited March 2015
Bug: After soul forged rase me from the dead destroyer bugged and stop working on rank 1-4 also augment companion stop working. Also if somone rase you w/o SF.
if I have 100% of my full hp or 50%, my temporary hp is fixed?
I ask becouse, in the best scenario, the class is currently able to "recover" through temporary hp, 100% hp becoming unstoppable, and that still not enough to withstand more than 200k damage attacks.
repeating: at best, unstoppable, to destroyers, using the correct power, is much more powerful than before, surpassing the life steal problem, and yet, the class is not prepared for the next module due concurrent changes. that IF gwf recover a fixed temporary hp.
the point here is: stop to nerfs and buffs (secrets or not) before to decid how the GAME will work first.
my wms are oooooooooooooooooover buffed. WHY? why that is important? why banalize, instead to buff, ws/sure strike is a good thing? wms is a debuff atwill and dont have range/radius to hit 5 enemies in a party team and have 0 value in pvp. give damage to that dont represent nothing. take that damage and over buff grand fissure again (why nerf this funny encounter?). the basics atwills and encounters, class features. wms debuff, but dont banalize AGAIN more and more the powers of the class. The broken "A" dont need work like B to be fine. just need work.
funny wms = cancelation. you take that. if dont will back to that, dont touch.
with the heavy reliance of GWFs on MARK to make up to its low base damage, Swordmaster Path is really unattractive for GWFs.
Swordmaster Path should be buffed on GWFs (but doesnt affect GFs) to make it more attractive.
I suggest decreasing the cast time on flourish, and adding more sources of mark to avoid the need of GWFs to go Iron Vanguard (Threatening Rush).
Sources of marks could be put to other utility skills;
-Come and Get it
-Battle Fury
-and buffing feats like Allied Opportunity (Instigator T4 feat) or the new T3 destroyer feat(Unfettered Strikes - Successful Melee attacks increase your move speed) change it to 4 successful melee strikes will mark your opponents.
with the heavy reliance of GWFs on MARK to make up to its low base damage, Swordmaster Path is really unattractive for GWFs.
Swordmaster Path should be buffed on GWFs (but doesnt affect GFs) to make it more attractive.
I suggest decreasing the cast time on flourish, and adding more sources of mark to avoid the need of GWFs to go Iron Vanguard (Threatening Rush).
Sources of marks could be put to other utility skills;
-Come and Get it
-Battle Fury
-and buffing feats like Allied Opportunity (Instigator T4 feat) or the new T3 destroyer feat(Unfettered Strikes - Successful Melee attacks increase your move speed) change it to 4 successful melee strikes will mark your opponents.
Or even easier would be to add 'mark' to flourish. Now SM has an encounter that can mark.
I also think it could be very appropriate given the roll of mark in PnP that any attack against a marked target has a 10% chance to interrupt that target. This interrupt would apply to CW shield - just like Roar.
This - combined with flourish mark - combined with making unstoppable and sprint's DR work on its own "level"(like GF block and CW shield)
Could actually bring some balance back into the game. The only potential issue would be TRs but atleast both sprint and Unstoppable DR would NOW help against their damage.
with the heavy reliance of GWFs on MARK to make up to its low base damage, Swordmaster Path is really unattractive for GWFs.
Swordmaster Path should be buffed on GWFs (but doesnt affect GFs) to make it more attractive.
I suggest decreasing the cast time on flourish, and adding more sources of mark to avoid the need of GWFs to go Iron Vanguard (Threatening Rush).
Sources of marks could be put to other utility skills;
-Come and Get it
-Battle Fury
-and buffing feats like Allied Opportunity (Instigator T4 feat) or the new T3 destroyer feat(Unfettered Strikes - Successful Melee attacks increase your move speed) change it to 4 successful melee strikes will mark your opponents.
better than mark... up the animation speed, including sprint/atwills and encounters?
Comments
Id prefer we first balance the class out. Cmon, you guys BOTH know they are not even remotely thinking about this especially this module. IF this were to happen it would be when they add a 3rd option, which would just add not remove IV.
Id rather they give us better encounter options - for instance:
"Punishing Charge" - Reworked to a "Bull Charge" Like mechanic. Make the encounter only usable with a target, make it a significantly increased distance (30-50'), make it STUN the target when you hit them. And make it a BASE CD of around 10 seconds (which would put it around 7-8 with recovery etc)
Now GWFs have a good mechanic like GFs to close the gap, allowing them to use sprint more for defensive options rather than feeling they need it to CATCH targets.
If you then add "Mark" to Flourish, NOW SM is actually useful with both a gap closer and a strong encounter that Marks.
All of this still wont fix many of the other issues:
1) Temp HP - not enough with HD, Based on Damage Boosts which is bad.
2) Stacking - this is the biggest issue with GWFs atm. With: Weapon Master, Destroyer, Destroyers Purpose, Instagator Capstone.
3) Determination Gain - Needs to be BOTH based on damage taken and SOMETHING the GWF can do to gain determinaton - not solely based on what your enemies do.
4) Stamina Gain - even increasing Strength to provide 2% Stamina gain for each point (and also 2% damage as well) would be a significant improvement, and combined with a punishing Charge rework the class would be in a solid spot.
I also liked the other ideas in this thread to:
1) Unstoppable/Sprint instead of DR grant 100% deflect chance
2) Sentinel Aegis - instead of 20% more defense gives 25% more deflect severity.
3) Intimidation - Copy Fire of the Gods, Paste onto Intimidation Feat however only difference is it still procs off CAGI/DS rather than crits.
All of the above do many things and would make the class MUCH more desirable to play both in PVE and PVP.
game over.
I think this is precisely the issue and I wrote a detailed post about this pages back. Maybe it was removed.
Things like Temp HP will not be noticed in PVE because PVE does not have healing depression. You also - MOST of the time will be playing PVE content with a healer, have the ability to use more than 1 potion (I have tons of stone of health that I use when low) and also PVE mobs do not have damage that bypasses ALL our DR.
In PVP you get 1/2 the Temp HP, because of the way domination is played you probably dont have a pocket healer (this is turning into how we WILL have to play PVP, which well just end up with noone premade Quing with a GWf since you can just take a CW instead to spit out more DPS, have more control and not be a s squishy - or a GF which provides countless party utility.) You also have damage sources that bypass our DR so things like Sprint or Unstoppable make zero difference where as in PVE you can feel confident if you ARE in sprint or ARE in Unstoppable you safe.
You also have a major difference that a PVE mob does not "wait" until out of Unstoppable to attack. a competent PVP player WILL wait to blow their Ice Knife for example on you so it not only prones but does ALOT more damage.
So to the above, this is why we need BETTER TEMP HP - that is also not tied to Damage bonuses. So that we CAN sustain during those moment. Thats the issue of this whole thing. The Temp HP we get in PVE is fine now, but when you add healing depression AND un-mitigatable damage you cant do anything about it making our class worthless.
For PVE Destroyers, not tanks, this is the other issue: Stacking. Its VERY easy to rush a group of mobs, do an AoE swing - gain a stack of Destroyer AND get them all to attack you. Boom, you just build quite a bit of determination, and swing 2x more and you are full destroyer stacks and with them attacking YOU you build determination thus allowing you to then build destroyer stacks (capstone) up as well. Within seconds your fully buffed up.
In PVP you cannot (generally) do an AoE attack on 3+ people to gain a stack. Thus you rely on the low chance of (25%?) to gain a stack of destroyer in PVP - which is fine EXCEPT all a CW needs to do is say, Repel you, and even if you DID sprint and catch back up to that CW, theres a HIGH chance with that 25% you wont get another stack of Destroyer meaning the first stack falls off - even if you DO get to attack and the CW just sits there and face tanks it, meaning its impossible to get and maintain these stacks - which is a LARGE portion of our DPS.
Ontop of that, you cannot FORCE players to attack you, so you will neither be building Destroyer Feat stacks NOR Destroyer capstone stacks since we are REQUIRED to be IN unstoppable to gain these stacks.
IF you ARE being attacked, chances are you are being controled - some way or another, which does NOT build determination unless you take enough HP loss. Most smart players will save all their damage for Bursts. Meaning when you finally DO get a chance to attack you probably have 70% or less HP. You then get a very small window to even get your destroyer stacks up, thats if you dont get kited. Ontop of that, <70% HP opens you up for a TRs SE which crits for 70k+ HP and Execs hit even harder under 70%, since it bypasses all your DR being IN unstoppable or even sprinting or BOTH wont mean a thing, where as in PVE if you were sprinting + Unstoppable you would take almost zero damage.
Stamina Gain is another one. In most PVE encounters you dont need much stamina. You typically sprint out in front of a group to get "agro" but then, more or less, stand still spamming attacks. When that encounter is done you probably have most of your stamina back up.
Go into a PVP match though, try and catch a CW. Chances are you will have VERY little "uptime" attacking them and MOST of your time will just be spent being kited around while they DoT you to death. Or a TR where the only small window you get to attack they are typically in ITC since they run nearly 2x your speed in stealth.
These are "specific" examples but there is one for nearly any class we face. The fact of the matter is GWFs in PVP are in a POOR spot in PVP that CANNOT and WILL NOT be visible from PVE content.
This is joke with 20% base dr +12k temp hp +full stack tans negation enchant + full unstoppable one hit and i die.
Somthing is total wrong i dont get it dragons have armor pen ?
Where is my missing 60% dr ?
Aslo another ninja nerf to destroyer cap feat unstoppable gain from every 6' hit or encounter ?
PS: can someone upload some short vid from destroyer determination gain in mod 5 and in mod 6 to give better feedback cuz w/o it i cant prove the bug or "nerf?".
This class is EXACTLY were trs were in pve a few mods back, a single STATIC target dps machine.. great so bosses that dont move much, or dont have many adds we will do ok with that one circumstance.
ITs a far cry from the death wielding machine this class was. ITs not even the rework, if they gave us ALL that rework back, this game has changed and this class needs some updating to get it back to further usefulness.
Need more on the sport targeting, more CC control back, some more Defense survibility and more AOE damage.
I dont mind giving up any range, if we can move again to targets (give me unlimited threatening rush and remove that annoying delay on it)
BTW dont for a second pretend sprint is fixed, its STILL not fixed compared to the SW, there is a hitch on it as well. Wicked strike, still gives a hitch as well.
The class is less respondent, less damaging, less controlling, less everything that it used to be.
Just to avoid incorrect feedback the weapon dmg is huge buffed after you enter in lvl 70+ zone .
So the GWFs dps give you total wrong picture the true dps is if you hit combat dummy in trade of blades.
I think its a bug GWf have the biggest weapon dmg in game but other classes dont get so huge base weapon dmg boost in lvl 70 zone .
CW have the second biggest weapon dmg in the game.
But the difference in normal 59 areas are not so huge only 200 and not 800.
Thanks for the great feedback and I couldnt agree more with this. The only class that is worse off in PVP is the SW. Whats funny is the TWO worst classes share the same "shift" ability - maybe thats a sign that its clearly NOT on par with other classes and needs a rework (+100% deflect has been proposed)
To the Threat Rush point - I agree as well. The entire purpose this was changed was because of the "impossible to kite" mentality. You could have done ONE of the two fixes - 3 charges OR the "delay". TBH BOTH is just a flat out OVER nerf.
FYI - The "3 charges" doesnt REALLY affect PVP play, just makes it annoying as HECK in PVE. The delay renders the entire at will NEARLY useless as by the time the delay is over, you could have just moved to the target without it (given the small range). The only benefit to using it and why its mandatory? Its 'mark'. If GWFs had a different, more reliable way of marking targets NOONE would use Threat Rush.
The big issue and why I (and many others) are raising such a stink about this class is two fold:
1) We have BEEN at the bottom of the 'pile' for the last TWO modules now. Started with the module 4 nerfs that lastd THROUGH module 5, we only got PURE LUCK that we were given Intimidation which quickly become THE ONLY viable PVP build because of the mawssive 14k+ Power Stacking ability. If this feat alone were merely nerfed a tiny bit more, it would have rendered the class COMPLETELY useless (which is what is happening in module 6)
2) We do NOT - I repeat DO NOT want a complete overhaul on our class like you did BOTH module 3 and then module 4.
PLEASE - LISTEN this time. I was one that spoke up against ALL the module 3 buffs. But noone listened (and it wasnt just me). I then ALSO posted AGAINST all the module 4 nerfs - didnt listen.
All thats happened is overbuff overnerf this class when NEITHER is required. I dont want to build a GWF, Deck him out in gear that we have to HEAVILY invest into to have it re-worked next module when the class is finally "fixed".
The damage buff is if you are under 70, when you are 70 its not like that..
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
With all respect i want to ask the developer team to make some changes on the defensive mechanism on the following class:
Change the damage resistane on the Unstoppable in the case of Destroyer/Instigator Great Weapon Fighters to 15-30% but it is also should work like the Shield Spell on the Control Wizard or the Block of the Guardian Fighter, further more give the same mechanism to the Sprint with 30% damage resistance.
Do not change the numbers on the Great Weapon Fighter Sentinel but give it the same mechanism like the Shield on the CW or the Block on the Guardian Fighter. This way the Sentinel would be able to tank as it was intented in the 1st place
My suggestion should fix the promblems caused by the Piercing mechanism, this way it would be completly acceptable and it also would be able to balance out both the PvP and the PvE part of this game. It would solve the one hit kill problems in the game further more it would balance out the Life Steal and Regeneration loss .
I come up with this idea based on the feedback of the other players.
Thnx for reading this .
If you're trying to suggest to change the coding of unstoppable to be the same with Control Wizard's Shield, I agree! unstoppable's DR should be like a CW's shield, can't be debuffed and can't be affected by armor penetration. this would give a noticeable buff to survivability but still not broken (cause even CWs with 100% uptime of shield still dies)
This is a very elegant solution, Kudos! I like it alot and wouldnt be too hard to code AND seems VERY reasonably fair both for unstoppable AND sprint. A 15-30% and 30% DR boost on its OWN layer of DR.
I still hold personally that all he other areas still need addressing but this would help against piercing damage from TRs (like SE).
1 - why this class is not being adapted for this module?
second datas, an instigator against tiamat for example, need to lose more than half million in hp (5x 100k) to active your capstone.
... i dont will speak about Countless Scars...
are facts; no troll here.
2 - what is the advantage of the class? that i have by far superior to the other classes? the reason to choose a gwf, a off tank dyingin one hit in this game when the MAGE can mitigate 80% of the enemies damage/bring a lot of utility and do a bizarre damage?
are facts.
3 - why our arp, that potentially was 50% of necessary to necessary for pve dropped to 1/5 or 1/10% in this curves w/o adjuste?
4 - the most important: why battle fury, that should up my damage and down my defense - what would have been a solution in the past ... if you guys had stopped for 5 minutes to read the Wikpedia - now serve to giveme more sprint and temporary hp BUT the damage itself is a max of 25%?
I like the idea, I dunno about "locked for 10 seconds" but atleast put BACK on CD. I mean most abilities are 8 seconds + CD so it would essentially be the same thing... except currently its merely interrupted. I personally would also like them to code Roar with an "interrupt" meaning a .5 second "stun" if you will. So it literally interrupts targets doing ANYTHING briefly - be it re casting or even running and must re-press the button to move. This is how it was pre module 1 even. You Roar and it "stops" them and must re-cast.
Nice idea on Punishing Charge- although if it does the same thing as Roar why would anyone want Roar? One of the biggest issues we have is gap closers. Imagine how bad a GF would feel without lunging strike or bul charge. it would be worthless. IMO what we need is an encounter that is also a good gap closer - LIKE lunging strike or LIKE Bull Charge.
Funny thing about both those is they are some of the hardest hitting GF encounters AND are gap closers - which is what makes a GF harder to actually "kite" than even a GWF who has sprint.
If Punishing Charge was turning into a "Bull Charge" like mechanic, with a longer range, target to cast, and massive increased damage and even a "stun" at the end of the ability (instead of a prone like Bull Charge) This would GREATLY help the class.
Changing punishing charge into a bull charge would be great. we need targetted stuns and CC. and ways to land our skills easier. I've taken this from a D&D wiki based on some fighter powers, that could be interesting to use / modify. '
With force the battle I'm thinking of it as a "buff daily" something that could r give us fast regenerating determination (like lurkers assault) and buff our damage by a good % and give us % Temp hp per second. A true buff daily that gives us potential to tank/ and deal damage while taking little damage
I've also found it weird that we don't have Anvil of doom. and GF does. The wording of it makes it sound like a Power a 2 handed fighter would use
Anvil of Doom Fighter Attack 13
Your weapon makes a satisfying clunk as it connects with your
enemy’s skull.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is
dazed until the end of your next turn.
Other intersting dailies / powers that could replace things we dont use / mechanics can be used to improve us
Boundless Endurance Fighter Utility 2
You shake off the worst of your wounds.
Daily ✦ Healing, Martial, Stance
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain regeneration 2 + your Constitution modifier
when you are bloodied.
Vorpal Tornado Fighter Attack 17
You become a whirling cyclone of death, spinning your weapon
about as you strike one foe after another, pushing them back and
knocking them down.
Encounter ✦ Martial,Weapon
Standard Action Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst you can see
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. You push the target
1 square, and it is knocked prone.
Warrior’s Challenge Fighter Attack 17
You land a mighty blow that causes your foe to stagger backward.
With a wicked grin, you hoist your weapon and flash it menacingly
at other enemies nearby.
Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 2 squares.
Special: All of your enemies within 2 squares of the target are
marked until the end of your next turn.
GWF ( and Fighters in general) have a LOT more regeneration and healing and Prones/stuns in 4e. GWF at the moment has 1 prone and 2 stuns, yet the 2 stuns are unreliable to land As we can see by the above skills, we are really missing out on a lot of the potential and power of what using a two handed weapon fighter should be about.
Drunken Goose of MidNight Express. - 3.3k Paladin , 3.6k GWF , 3.1k GF,
Feedback: GWF ( and Fighters in general) have a LOT more regeneration and healing and Prones/stuns in 4e
It was nerfed? WHY!? Did a CW cry about it!?
if I have 100% of my full hp or 50%, my temporary hp is fixed?
I ask becouse, in the best scenario, the class is currently able to "recover" through temporary hp, 100% hp becoming unstoppable, and that still not enough to withstand more than 200k damage attacks.
repeating: at best, unstoppable, to destroyers, using the correct power, is much more powerful than before, surpassing the life steal problem, and yet, the class is not prepared for the next module due concurrent changes. that IF gwf recover a fixed temporary hp.
the point here is: stop to nerfs and buffs (secrets or not) before to decid how the GAME will work first.
my wms are oooooooooooooooooover buffed. WHY? why that is important? why banalize, instead to buff, ws/sure strike is a good thing? wms is a debuff atwill and dont have range/radius to hit 5 enemies in a party team and have 0 value in pvp. give damage to that dont represent nothing. take that damage and over buff grand fissure again (why nerf this funny encounter?). the basics atwills and encounters, class features. wms debuff, but dont banalize AGAIN more and more the powers of the class. The broken "A" dont need work like B to be fine. just need work.
funny wms = cancelation. you take that. if dont will back to that, dont touch.
Swordmaster Path should be buffed on GWFs (but doesnt affect GFs) to make it more attractive.
I suggest decreasing the cast time on flourish, and adding more sources of mark to avoid the need of GWFs to go Iron Vanguard (Threatening Rush).
Sources of marks could be put to other utility skills;
-Come and Get it
-Battle Fury
-and buffing feats like Allied Opportunity (Instigator T4 feat) or the new T3 destroyer feat(Unfettered Strikes - Successful Melee attacks increase your move speed) change it to 4 successful melee strikes will mark your opponents.
Or even easier would be to add 'mark' to flourish. Now SM has an encounter that can mark.
I also think it could be very appropriate given the roll of mark in PnP that any attack against a marked target has a 10% chance to interrupt that target. This interrupt would apply to CW shield - just like Roar.
This - combined with flourish mark - combined with making unstoppable and sprint's DR work on its own "level"(like GF block and CW shield)
Could actually bring some balance back into the game. The only potential issue would be TRs but atleast both sprint and Unstoppable DR would NOW help against their damage.
better than mark... up the animation speed, including sprint/atwills and encounters?
but yes, is amazing too.