satsunohadoMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 71Arc User
edited June 2014
As far as I concerned, I think dev need to rework with GF 's power, give GF more AOE attacks, and buff damage output for GF, I dont know if people still remember, GF has an at-will power called Crushing Surge, which deal damage to foes and heal GF, the problem with this at-will is too slow, that' s why people ignored this power, the Devs need to make this At-will useful, so GF has a self-healing ability for tanking mobs , also Fighter' s recovery is good self-healing daily power but it takes longer to gain full action points, maybe the Devs can make this daily power usable every 25% of action points, without have to gain full action points. I dont suggest to buff GF' s damage resistance, I think buff GF' s at-will & encounter damage will be better idea, because GF' s damage is inbottom-line, mostly they are just a bit better than DC, but far away from other classes, I dont know if people understand why GF are least favor in PvE group? They cant tank? that' s one reason, but also the low damage done, for example, Valindra boss (VT), on last phase, if you bring a GF to your group, you may experience hard time to burn boss down while more adds come out, because of GF' s low damage done, It makes the boss harder to kill, then why players should bring a class that makes boss harder to kill or wipe more? Also, better damage done = better threat = more life steal = better survivability, that' s why I suggest buff GF' s Overall damage done, give them more self-healing ability from damage foes, rather than buff their damage resistance, because if simply just buff GF' s resistance, it only cause more problems/imbalance in PvP, but not helping solve PvE problem.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
edited June 2014
Tide of Iron is a 20% damage resistance debuff. Incidentally, KC should be multiplying the effects of all your defense debuffs, so with the conq feat, you should have 2.1*(1+0.08+0.16+0.2) = 3.02* damage multiplier. Applying Tide of Iron can be a bit of a pain, but it's an incredibly powerful debuff.
Tide of Iron is a 20% damage resistance debuff. Incidentally, KC should be multiplying the effects of all your defense debuffs, so with the conq feat, you should have 2.1*(1+0.08+0.16+0.2) = 3.02* damage multiplier. Applying Tide of Iron can be a bit of a pain, but it's an incredibly powerful debuff.
How much would that ~ be in damage added as percentage? My mathematical knowledge is limited, hehe.
But either way, i guess this stacks with my 40% arpen, doesn't it? I can see things much more clearly now x).
Nevermind, i guess it was someone elses GF, i got confused because he had about the same, lovely attitude as you...
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Sarcasm aside, what is your crit rate? Do you really believe that running a vorpal like this is optimal or even better than a bronzewood? Keep in mind that the BW adds a constant damage boost that gets doubled by KC, unlike vorpal which only works if one actually crits. Try to think rational, because hitting something 100 times in a row is not really a realistic PvP scenario. Make that 10 max. 15 hits (even 10 hits is an exaggeration) and like i said, even with around 30% crit rate, actually landing a crit is a rarity. Count the hits that do NOT crit, instead of the ones that do, just don't forget to actually use KC, because without it a bronzewood does not hit as hard, of course. Then you will realize, that the damage added on top of the non crits is overall higher than if you crit every now and then, with a vorpal. No clue why you called me a kid, i am probably twice as old as you are, just saying.
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I checked your post history, you think that you know it all, but i highly doubt it (no offense) and i already talked to the best GF in the game and he has very different opinions than you do. Not to bash your opinion in any way but, i am not buying into your claims.
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Now i have to ask, why do you only hit for 34k with your LS, you have a perfect vorpal i assume. Perhaps you should stack some more power and arpen. (kidding).
You sure do have a mouth on you colonel. Anytime, anyplace, anywhere. I'll show you what the "current" meta is all about. And the other guy you are talking to in Synergy is the reason why a lot of these changes are happening in the first place. So you should pay your respects and get off you high horse. Plus, you really need to check your math. A lot of those numbers are pretty and look nice, but if you actually take into fact the raw data, and what the calculations actually come out to, damage resistance, tenacity, your large pretty number is nowhere near that. But anyway, carry on.
You sure do have a mouth on you colonel. Anytime, anyplace, anywhere. I'll show you what the "current" meta is all about. And the other guy you are talking to in Synergy is the reason why a lot of these changes are happening in the first place. So you should pay your respects and get off you high horse. Plus, you really need to check your math. A lot of those numbers are pretty and look nice, but if you actually take into fact the raw data, and what the calculations actually come out to, damage resistance, tenacity, your large pretty number is nowhere near that. But anyway, carry on.
Haha, running out of arguments already? Tenacity who? Damage resistance who? 40% arpen + -20% DR is how much? Ooopsie? Ah yeah, you cannot be aware of this, because you neither use KC nor tide of iron and are effectively gimping your own potential, my bad. I like this Ayroux guy, his suggestions aren't the best ones but i think he is not too far off track with his opinions most of the time... maybe just a little bit, sometimes (the really good GF's do not like his ideas, for a reason) but i can cope with all this and take it as it is.
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Now if you would excuse me, i have to get ready for work.
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arbitrarityMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 96Arc User
You sure do have a mouth on you colonel. Anytime, anyplace, anywhere. I'll show you what the "current" meta is all about. And the other guy you are talking to in Synergy is the reason why a lot of these changes are happening in the first place. So you should pay your respects and get off you high horse. Plus, you really need to check your math. A lot of those numbers are pretty and look nice, but if you actually take into fact the raw data, and what the calculations actually come out to, damage resistance, tenacity, your large pretty number is nowhere near that. But anyway, carry on.
Uuuuuhhhhhh. You do know how damage resistance and tenacity are affected by armor shred, right? Because it makes the effective damage multiplier BIGGER. If you want to talk about Tenacity, Tide of Iron alone turns it into nothing. Damage Resistance? Mark and Perfect Bronzewood shred 24%, and you ignore 24% via armor penetration. Boom, suddenly your opponent has no armor, and you're dealing 50% more damage than you would without Bronzewood/Tide of Iron.
All great points. I've used tide of iron as my main at will since Mod 2. Bronzewood is just not as noticeable of an enchant honestly. I tried it out, I've tried just about every viable enchant out there. I've ran KC, with bulls and lunging. They are fun to cheese around. But my style is more geared for high end premades. Us vs ET, or AC, or CS, not just pug smashing. So your play style is reallllllly fun when the other team is bad. But when it is a legit team you are fighting, and you are a guardian, and you use no prones, you are not contributing at all man.
I still have to disagree with your tide of iron turning it into nothing though. Sure, it's a great debuff, and I've noticed around a 20% damage increase from it. But like Aryoux said, the bronze really doesn't perform any better, and I still side on the vorpal hands down.
Lastly, I will say that my play style is geared for the highest level of premades. I am talking all rank 9-10's perfects, OP Hr's, OP GWF's, and I am contending as a Guardian.... Which would not happen if I used KC, Lung and Anvil. So I understand your meta is more involved with pugs, which is cool, and a lot more fun than 2 hour premades, but the pug matches are not something I am as skilled in so I am not one to give advice on such matters.
All great points. I've used tide of iron as my main at will since Mod 2. Bronzewood is just not as noticeable of an enchant honestly. I tried it out, I've tried just about every viable enchant out there. I've ran KC, with bulls and lunging. They are fun to cheese around. But my style is more geared for high end premades. Us vs ET, or AC, or CS, not just pug smashing. So your play style is reallllllly fun when the other team is bad. But when it is a legit team you are fighting, and you are a guardian, and you use no prones, you are not contributing at all man.
I still have to disagree with your tide of iron turning it into nothing though. Sure, it's a great debuff, and I've noticed around a 20% damage increase from it. But like Aryoux said, the bronze really doesn't perform any better, and I still side on the vorpal hands down.
Lastly, I will say that my play style is geared for the highest level of premades. I am talking all rank 9-10's perfects, OP Hr's, OP GWF's, and I am contending as a Guardian.... Which would not happen if I used KC, Lung and Anvil. So I understand your meta is more involved with pugs, which is cool, and a lot more fun than 2 hour premades, but the pug matches are not something I am as skilled in so I am not one to give advice on such matters.
But back to changes
But i said that i only pug, i have only rank 7/6 enchantments, along with lessers. I never knew someone could possibly be as stubborn as myself, until i met you on here. We have more in common than we realize. I have by no means, any hard feelings towards you. I actually learned a few things just by talking to you, thx for that.
Uuuuuhhhhhh. You do know how damage resistance and tenacity are affected by armor shred, right? Because it makes the effective damage multiplier BIGGER. If you want to talk about Tenacity, Tide of Iron alone turns it into nothing. Damage Resistance? Mark and Perfect Bronzewood shred 24%, and you ignore 24% via armor penetration. Boom, suddenly your opponent has no armor, and you're dealing 50% more damage than you would without Bronzewood/Tide of Iron.
I have 38.9% arpen, not 25% , But now i'm rly off to work (I'm late already...)
GFs did pretty well pre-tenacity with vorp and 20-25% crit.
The last nail in the GF coffin was tenacity which raised general DR and lowered how much your crits hit for.
Tenacity took Vorpal away from us and forced us to use Bronze because it was by far BiS (even though it's friggen terrible).
Then we were forced to wear Tenacity gear because we needed the DR and resistances, and all the tenacity sets suck so RIP PvP GF.
That's what happened, find a way to reverse that and we will be fine again. That's really all there is to it.
As far as tanking and PvE stuff, W/e give us all the guard reworks and threat mechanics in the world whatever it takes, I don't care. But until you restore GF DPS to where it was pre-tenacity we will not do well in team based, OR solo PvP.
The buffs to the sword master stuff may help to do that, but it's going to be at the cost of our CC so it's probably not going to work.
What made us decent in PvP before tenacity was that we were a very good 1/2 of a 2'man DPS team. GF + CW could clear anything, GF + DC could hold mid very very well. Ect ect. GF alone sucked, cept against DC for point bleeding, and GWF stalemating/bleeding before they became <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP.
We could protect allies, provide support to DPS which helped to clear points a lot quicker, and briefly hold a point until backup came while applying a reasonable amount of DPS (enough that the other player had to at least pay attention a little). And of course, we were masters of bleeding points intercepting and disrupting.
With these new "buffs" we might get some DPS back but the rest of f the stuff we were good for is gone gone gone, and it's not being replaced by anything.
I'm not a prone spammer. I use KC, LS, and AoD, with CS, ST passives and crushing surge/tide of iron as at-wills (cs deals 11k on my toon i like this at-will, alot.). But yeah, as i mentioned it i am most likely the only person with such a GF setup. I like being different, because being different can be very effective. I know what you wanted to suggest, no worries but reckless attacker as it is, is just beautiful in every aspect and i'd be more than sad if it gets ruined. I'd rather see the new block adjusted towards said feat, instead.
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On topic, i am beginning to like the new block, because i can use KC more effectively, without having to fear that my shield is torn to shreds with one hit.
KC never leaves my bar in PVP.. Also whats with all the " class masters, high end premade, perfect enchants.. " etc ? Some folks have way too much free time on their hands.
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
GF could have a feat, that increases the amount of defense needed to reach the soft cap. This would result in getting more damage resistance by stacking defense, which GFs can do extremely well.
I think this is a great idea, although it may be difficult to code and adjust the soft-cap for one class. But yeah it would make a difference without having to change much of anything since GFs have so much access to tons of defense.
yeah that is a good stats FOR TANKING CLASS... has not been balanced IDK why? . Is ridiculous you can have more of 10 k protections and just be 52 or 51 % of DR when you have 3.5 k portections = 35% DR.
no have buff or skilll to improve that or deflect chance, no have feat or skill to improve regenaration/recovery of missing hit points/ gain temporary hit point.
the new shield mechanism is really bad for tank pve/pvp
no good dmg return/ cc controls/ cc inmunity, no counter ability
ultimately all basic tools for one tanking class or at last a decent
I understand you do not want a GF hides behind the shield all time, so I think you should give a skill that allows you to fight back with short stun or litle knock back when blocking an ecounter or daily power , at least let the shield for stronger attacks
The gf isn't the tank we don't even have a role. The gwf is the main tank atm they have same defence as us but better deflect, ways to get more hp, more regen options, better defence based skills and they have Control immunity. What do we have ? soon we will get a cardboard shield with a hole in it woop woop.
Stat changes: STR = damage (1%) / Stamina Gain (2%)
CON = HP (4%) /ARP (1%)
DEX = Deflect (1%) /Crit (.5%)
RECKLESS ATTACKER: *REWORKED* Increases damage by 25% for 6 seconds after dealing a critical strike.
Stamina/Guard: Base duration DOUBLED.
Only drains WHILE IN COMBAT.
Recharge speed base DOUBLED.
Now that block is only 80%, I think its only fair to have it have much more an "uptime" than previously. Think of how many times TRs use stealth, or CWs use Spell Mastery, or GWFs use Unstoppable - MANY times per fight. GFs are the only one who once block is used, have to wait almost 15 seconds for full block again, thats WAY too long IMO.
I think these MINOR changes, would make the GF a GOOD player to have in both PVP and PVE.
A big no on your reckless attacker 're-work' a decent conq has 10k+ power which translates to +60% damage half of which comes from RA with no proc and no timer.
KC never leaves my bar in PVP.. Also whats with all the " class masters, high end premade, perfect enchants.. " etc ? Some folks have way too much free time on their hands.
KC only works in pug matches. It can also do well if you are working closely with another class that can prone, but I think you would still be more useful on a 2 man kill team if played the roll of proner.
The Meta is going to change with Mod4 most likely, but right now on live that's your roll, and you can't do it very effectively and that's why GFs are not good in PvP.
There are a lot of GFs working VERY hard to create a new roll for themselves in PvP and their results have been impressive. However a team is still severely gimped when a GF is on it. There simply nothing you can do right now to make yourself worth taking.
This will not change if everyone keeps pressing the tankyness thing. You can already be pretty darn tanky in PvP.... It's not even close to being useful against average players much less well geared and skilled ones. We need DPS, and KC is not the answer. But I'm not going to fault GFs who are still playing for using it, anything else is almost as useless =\
The reason why i decided to use KC, is because without it... i cannot kill anything in pvp. Now that the shield lets 20% damage right through our guard, i am taking 40% of my targets damage and KC is even less attractive than it was without the new "feature". Idk where this is heading, but i am close to losing all faith and hopes that we ever will be heard. They rather listen to those guys who have nothing better to do, than playing the meatshield, which is sad in my opinion.
The reason why i decided to use KC, is because without it... i cannot kill anything in pvp. Now that the shield lets 20% damage right through our guard, i am taking 40% of my targets damage and KC is even less attractive than it was without the new "feature". Idk where this is heading, but i am close to losing all faith and hopes that we ever will be heard. They rather listen to those guys who have nothing better to do, than playing the meatshield, which is sad in my opinion.
I have rank 7 enchantments, not really that maxed out. I do pay my bills by myself and at the end of the month it is not uncommon to have nothing left to eat, for days. But hey, one can't have it all i guess.
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And back to working.
Ya man only the KC part of my comment was for you, the rest is for the "elite" players..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
KC only works in pug matches. It can also do well if you are working closely with another class that can prone, but I think you would still be more useful on a 2 man kill team if played the roll of proner.
The Meta is going to change with Mod4 most likely, but right now on live that's your roll, and you can't do it very effectively and that's why GFs are not good in PvP.
There are a lot of GFs working VERY hard to create a new roll for themselves in PvP and their results have been impressive. However a team is still severely gimped when a GF is on it. There simply nothing you can do right now to make yourself worth taking.
This will not change if everyone keeps pressing the tankyness thing. You can already be pretty darn tanky in PvP.... It's not even close to being useful against average players much less well geared and skilled ones. We need DPS, and KC is not the answer. But I'm not going to fault GFs who are still playing for using it, anything else is almost as useless =\
Thanks for taking over the lecture for me. Class dismissed! LOL. But seriously, your other post is 100% true about pre-tenacity. Tenacity really killed the GFs only hope in being decent. This was my GF tribute I played at his funeral with mod 3 roll out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s1U95zMCaw)
I really hope they listen in the feedback thread (I doubt they are even looking here)
But I will say I completely agree that GFs-not matter how skilled/geared they are- have no roll in pvp at this moment.
When I say PVP, I dont mean puging, I mean real competitive high end pvp. Hopefully they will listen, both to GWF changes which will make them worthless, and GF changes too.
Either way, having a decent shield will not mean anything. We need damage, group buffs, debuffs, prones... something. Should shield work/be good? Yes. But god, if that is all we get out of these "GF Changes"...
I read somewhere (many places actually) that they are trying to diversify the paragon paths. GWF for example they want IV/Sent to be very tanky so they kept unstoppable as is, and Destroyer they are nerfing unstoppable. And they want to raise GF swordmaster damage to be on par with that. Has the change to flourish/wms came even close? And even if they do that there are major issues, it still isn't balanced. Sent's will have unstoppable basically as it is now, which is WAYYYYYYYY tankier than anything a GF can do, even with a fixed shield. And for all the "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" dps they do, it is still better than a dps focused GF.
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stagger38Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 28Arc User
edited June 2014
How about this for discussion: If the Block mechanic is removed, what would take its place?
Currently most discussion is 'buff block duration', 'use the old block', 'give us 100% DR', etc. Personally, I don't think any changes to block will make the GF a desirable class. So what if it were replaced with something else?
Also discuss Mark, though I think the new version is okay.
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I think replacing block with Knight's Challenge could be very interesting. Functions exactly the same, but only receive 50% more damage (still give 100% more) and gain CC immunity. When activated, a very obvious "Challenged!" text pops up, so it's clear it's being used. Stamina based of course, with a base duration of 6s. Block could then replace the encounter power. For 3/4/5s , reflect 10% of incoming damage, you receive no damage, and stamina regeneration is increased by 25%. 20s cooldown.
Don't limit yourself to existing powers though, I just thought KC was a good fit.
Guys, I honestly don't think really anything we say is going to influence how they are going to make the class. I think we can help edit the ideas they use. But they are not going to do anything we say unless they find some way to make it look like they reinvented the wheel.
They are faced with the problem of making a class that works for PVE, PVP (pugs matches, AND premades) and that is just never going to work.
PVE GF -
We used to be able to do really good damage on bosses with knight's and anvil and sure we still can, but other classes can do more so that is sort of out of the question. We used to be the tank, well people just hadn't learned that GWF's and Clerics tank better yet. So if PVE GF's get what they want, it'd include better prones "control". More damage to be necessary, and a TON more block since these dev's think threat has been the problem for the last year....
PVP GF
- PUG
He wants to run around and use KC and see what kind of numbers he can make fly.
1. He runs into a GWF gets a good shot or two in and is dead due to no clue how to keep moving and block the big hits since you currently have to anticipate the encounters or your guard meter is just gone.. (GOOD GWF - not close) (BAD GWF - semi close)
2. He runs into an HR, tries to run, gets rooted, fox shift, bam bam bam dead. When he does KC, he does some damage, but their DR and healing abilities are too much to make a very large dent in his life at all (GOOD HR) (Bad HR - it is close)
3. He runs into TR, TR stealths, and GF finds something else to do.
4. He runs into cleric - Good cleric, he can hit big but the cleric knows how to dodge so his few bigs hits just get healed. Bad Cleric - dies.
5. He runs into a CW - good cw, kills him bad cw - he hits HUGE and is like man this class rules!!!!
- Moral - he wants more damage, he hates CW's rooting him so he wants longer prone duration, he hates GWF's doing everything he can do but better so he want it all, he hates HR's because they are just silly OP, he hates TR's because he has nothing to counter them but reflect which in the end a good TR will win. He hates clerics because we all do,
PREMADE GF
He goes two ways, either he goes a form of the reflect build, I prefer a hybdrid, vangard either conq or tact, because you need FLS to help the teammates, but the swordmaster tact works the best for what you are trying to do so you're caught b/w a rock and a hardplace. Best set up for this is bull charge, frontline, and knight's valor combined with SoS and a greater plague or perfect terror, or regular plague to stack with the greater plague so the knight's valor + SoS stacks debuff on anyone hitting anyone on your team in line of site. Armor enchant, would be briart + guarded assault for an extra 7% reflect, or Bark for better DR, regardless it is still not THAT good
The damage route, it is ok, but everyone else has so much defense, hp, deflect, regen, MORE DAMAGE, that 1v1's just make you mad. BUT you can time your prones with the help of another class and do nearly just as well as that person with another better class as long as you are good
1. Goes against GWF - reflect build can make the fight last a while, but you'll lose eventually. Damage spec if you anticipate their encounters can beat the lowest end of premade GWF granted they don't roll a HUGE crit, but the best GWF's will just kill you.
2. Goes against HR - it takes about 30 seconds for his AOE's and melee/ranged to kill you, while he regens to nearly full life as you hit him with everything you have.
3. Goes against TR - If he is a POTB TR, you can soulforge him sure, even beat them if they mess up their rotation but you will lose to the best, and the perma's you just have to get to a truce to where you both just stand there and get on youtube for 2 hours while the other 4 people fight everyone else. Because countering their TR with a GF is the best scenario for your team with the GF
4. Goes against Cleric - reflect build can't do enough to kill it, damage spec if you time alllllll of your prones to hit, can eventually kill any cleric, but it will take a while, and usually someone else shows up and kills you
So he wants either more reflect, longer shield durations, longer/better block, or more damage/prones etc
- So essentially to fix the GF for everyone. They would have to increase the control - either by restoring the prones to their old glory, or fixing a few other moves like griffon's wrath. They would have to increase damage so in PVE it's not just more useful to take another class because we know dungeon mechanics will not be changed, they just add more adds and call it a day. They would have to fix the block. The current block is ok, but taking 20% of damage in PVE will still bring you down REALLY fast, and in pvp, it still just doesn't last long enough, and a big problem was the delay, which if restored to mod 2 would allow the good GF's who only blocked when they needed to be much better again. The feats would need fixed to give bonuses that are actually worth taking. The GF has WEAK feats, they increase things in such small increments that it is honestly sad.
In the end, if they did alllllll of that. We would decimate all, get nerfed back to where we are now, and everyone would then go back to playing their other classes.... So long story short, I have no clue what they can do to make everyone happy.
Is the new mark ok? I mean, forget about threat, that was never, ever, ever,ever, ever the issue. Does the combat advantage on the 1 mob mean anything?
Thought more as soon as i posted...
In pvp, it seems fairly bad, if you are going to hold a node, as it doesn't give you CA, just allies. Ya, it would help your team when they come over, but still don't think it will be much. In pve, it might make a boss fight, single target, go a bit faster, depending on how much CA it adds.
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How much would that ~ be in damage added as percentage? My mathematical knowledge is limited, hehe.
But either way, i guess this stacks with my 40% arpen, doesn't it? I can see things much more clearly now x).
You sure do have a mouth on you colonel. Anytime, anyplace, anywhere. I'll show you what the "current" meta is all about. And the other guy you are talking to in Synergy is the reason why a lot of these changes are happening in the first place. So you should pay your respects and get off you high horse. Plus, you really need to check your math. A lot of those numbers are pretty and look nice, but if you actually take into fact the raw data, and what the calculations actually come out to, damage resistance, tenacity, your large pretty number is nowhere near that. But anyway, carry on.
Haha, running out of arguments already? Tenacity who? Damage resistance who? 40% arpen + -20% DR is how much? Ooopsie? Ah yeah, you cannot be aware of this, because you neither use KC nor tide of iron and are effectively gimping your own potential, my bad. I like this Ayroux guy, his suggestions aren't the best ones but i think he is not too far off track with his opinions most of the time... maybe just a little bit, sometimes (the really good GF's do not like his ideas, for a reason) but i can cope with all this and take it as it is.
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Now if you would excuse me, i have to get ready for work.
Uuuuuhhhhhh. You do know how damage resistance and tenacity are affected by armor shred, right? Because it makes the effective damage multiplier BIGGER. If you want to talk about Tenacity, Tide of Iron alone turns it into nothing. Damage Resistance? Mark and Perfect Bronzewood shred 24%, and you ignore 24% via armor penetration. Boom, suddenly your opponent has no armor, and you're dealing 50% more damage than you would without Bronzewood/Tide of Iron.
I still have to disagree with your tide of iron turning it into nothing though. Sure, it's a great debuff, and I've noticed around a 20% damage increase from it. But like Aryoux said, the bronze really doesn't perform any better, and I still side on the vorpal hands down.
Lastly, I will say that my play style is geared for the highest level of premades. I am talking all rank 9-10's perfects, OP Hr's, OP GWF's, and I am contending as a Guardian.... Which would not happen if I used KC, Lung and Anvil. So I understand your meta is more involved with pugs, which is cool, and a lot more fun than 2 hour premades, but the pug matches are not something I am as skilled in so I am not one to give advice on such matters.
But back to changes
But i said that i only pug, i have only rank 7/6 enchantments, along with lessers. I never knew someone could possibly be as stubborn as myself, until i met you on here. We have more in common than we realize. I have by no means, any hard feelings towards you. I actually learned a few things just by talking to you, thx for that.
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Peace.
I have 38.9% arpen, not 25% , But now i'm rly off to work (I'm late already...)
Me.
Hail B*tches.
Dom knows better.
And the only reason I can make that statement is Hzarn quit. He was the True Master *bows head in respect*
The chance to land at least one critical hit when striking three times is (calculated using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution)...
25% crit chance : 1-f(0; 3, 0.25) = 57.8%
30% crit chance : 1-f(0; 3, 0.30) = 65.7%
I wouldn't call that very high.
GFs did pretty well pre-tenacity with vorp and 20-25% crit.
The last nail in the GF coffin was tenacity which raised general DR and lowered how much your crits hit for.
Tenacity took Vorpal away from us and forced us to use Bronze because it was by far BiS (even though it's friggen terrible).
Then we were forced to wear Tenacity gear because we needed the DR and resistances, and all the tenacity sets suck so RIP PvP GF.
That's what happened, find a way to reverse that and we will be fine again. That's really all there is to it.
As far as tanking and PvE stuff, W/e give us all the guard reworks and threat mechanics in the world whatever it takes, I don't care. But until you restore GF DPS to where it was pre-tenacity we will not do well in team based, OR solo PvP.
The buffs to the sword master stuff may help to do that, but it's going to be at the cost of our CC so it's probably not going to work.
What made us decent in PvP before tenacity was that we were a very good 1/2 of a 2'man DPS team. GF + CW could clear anything, GF + DC could hold mid very very well. Ect ect. GF alone sucked, cept against DC for point bleeding, and GWF stalemating/bleeding before they became <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> OP.
We could protect allies, provide support to DPS which helped to clear points a lot quicker, and briefly hold a point until backup came while applying a reasonable amount of DPS (enough that the other player had to at least pay attention a little). And of course, we were masters of bleeding points intercepting and disrupting.
With these new "buffs" we might get some DPS back but the rest of f the stuff we were good for is gone gone gone, and it's not being replaced by anything.
KC never leaves my bar in PVP.. Also whats with all the " class masters, high end premade, perfect enchants.. " etc ? Some folks have way too much free time on their hands.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
yeah that is a good stats FOR TANKING CLASS... has not been balanced IDK why? . Is ridiculous you can have more of 10 k protections and just be 52 or 51 % of DR when you have 3.5 k portections = 35% DR.
no have buff or skilll to improve that or deflect chance, no have feat or skill to improve regenaration/recovery of missing hit points/ gain temporary hit point.
the new shield mechanism is really bad for tank pve/pvp
no good dmg return/ cc controls/ cc inmunity, no counter ability
ultimately all basic tools for one tanking class or at last a decent
I understand you do not want a GF hides behind the shield all time, so I think you should give a skill that allows you to fight back with short stun or litle knock back when blocking an ecounter or daily power , at least let the shield for stronger attacks
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A big no on your reckless attacker 're-work' a decent conq has 10k+ power which translates to +60% damage half of which comes from RA with no proc and no timer.
KC only works in pug matches. It can also do well if you are working closely with another class that can prone, but I think you would still be more useful on a 2 man kill team if played the roll of proner.
The Meta is going to change with Mod4 most likely, but right now on live that's your roll, and you can't do it very effectively and that's why GFs are not good in PvP.
There are a lot of GFs working VERY hard to create a new roll for themselves in PvP and their results have been impressive. However a team is still severely gimped when a GF is on it. There simply nothing you can do right now to make yourself worth taking.
This will not change if everyone keeps pressing the tankyness thing. You can already be pretty darn tanky in PvP.... It's not even close to being useful against average players much less well geared and skilled ones. We need DPS, and KC is not the answer. But I'm not going to fault GFs who are still playing for using it, anything else is almost as useless =\
Ya man only the KC part of my comment was for you, the rest is for the "elite" players..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I misread it, because it was so early in the morning. Sorry.
And back to work.
Thanks for taking over the lecture for me. Class dismissed! LOL. But seriously, your other post is 100% true about pre-tenacity. Tenacity really killed the GFs only hope in being decent. This was my GF tribute I played at his funeral with mod 3 roll out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s1U95zMCaw)
I really hope they listen in the feedback thread (I doubt they are even looking here)
But I will say I completely agree that GFs-not matter how skilled/geared they are- have no roll in pvp at this moment.
When I say PVP, I dont mean puging, I mean real competitive high end pvp. Hopefully they will listen, both to GWF changes which will make them worthless, and GF changes too.
I read somewhere (many places actually) that they are trying to diversify the paragon paths. GWF for example they want IV/Sent to be very tanky so they kept unstoppable as is, and Destroyer they are nerfing unstoppable. And they want to raise GF swordmaster damage to be on par with that. Has the change to flourish/wms came even close? And even if they do that there are major issues, it still isn't balanced. Sent's will have unstoppable basically as it is now, which is WAYYYYYYYY tankier than anything a GF can do, even with a fixed shield. And for all the "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" dps they do, it is still better than a dps focused GF.
Currently most discussion is 'buff block duration', 'use the old block', 'give us 100% DR', etc. Personally, I don't think any changes to block will make the GF a desirable class. So what if it were replaced with something else?
Also discuss Mark, though I think the new version is okay.
~~
I think replacing block with Knight's Challenge could be very interesting. Functions exactly the same, but only receive 50% more damage (still give 100% more) and gain CC immunity. When activated, a very obvious "Challenged!" text pops up, so it's clear it's being used. Stamina based of course, with a base duration of 6s. Block could then replace the encounter power. For 3/4/5s , reflect 10% of incoming damage, you receive no damage, and stamina regeneration is increased by 25%. 20s cooldown.
Don't limit yourself to existing powers though, I just thought KC was a good fit.
They are faced with the problem of making a class that works for PVE, PVP (pugs matches, AND premades) and that is just never going to work.
PVE GF -
We used to be able to do really good damage on bosses with knight's and anvil and sure we still can, but other classes can do more so that is sort of out of the question. We used to be the tank, well people just hadn't learned that GWF's and Clerics tank better yet. So if PVE GF's get what they want, it'd include better prones "control". More damage to be necessary, and a TON more block since these dev's think threat has been the problem for the last year....
PVP GF
- PUG
He wants to run around and use KC and see what kind of numbers he can make fly.
1. He runs into a GWF gets a good shot or two in and is dead due to no clue how to keep moving and block the big hits since you currently have to anticipate the encounters or your guard meter is just gone.. (GOOD GWF - not close) (BAD GWF - semi close)
2. He runs into an HR, tries to run, gets rooted, fox shift, bam bam bam dead. When he does KC, he does some damage, but their DR and healing abilities are too much to make a very large dent in his life at all (GOOD HR) (Bad HR - it is close)
3. He runs into TR, TR stealths, and GF finds something else to do.
4. He runs into cleric - Good cleric, he can hit big but the cleric knows how to dodge so his few bigs hits just get healed. Bad Cleric - dies.
5. He runs into a CW - good cw, kills him bad cw - he hits HUGE and is like man this class rules!!!!
- Moral - he wants more damage, he hates CW's rooting him so he wants longer prone duration, he hates GWF's doing everything he can do but better so he want it all, he hates HR's because they are just silly OP, he hates TR's because he has nothing to counter them but reflect which in the end a good TR will win. He hates clerics because we all do,
PREMADE GF
He goes two ways, either he goes a form of the reflect build, I prefer a hybdrid, vangard either conq or tact, because you need FLS to help the teammates, but the swordmaster tact works the best for what you are trying to do so you're caught b/w a rock and a hardplace. Best set up for this is bull charge, frontline, and knight's valor combined with SoS and a greater plague or perfect terror, or regular plague to stack with the greater plague so the knight's valor + SoS stacks debuff on anyone hitting anyone on your team in line of site. Armor enchant, would be briart + guarded assault for an extra 7% reflect, or Bark for better DR, regardless it is still not THAT good
The damage route, it is ok, but everyone else has so much defense, hp, deflect, regen, MORE DAMAGE, that 1v1's just make you mad. BUT you can time your prones with the help of another class and do nearly just as well as that person with another better class as long as you are good
1. Goes against GWF - reflect build can make the fight last a while, but you'll lose eventually. Damage spec if you anticipate their encounters can beat the lowest end of premade GWF granted they don't roll a HUGE crit, but the best GWF's will just kill you.
2. Goes against HR - it takes about 30 seconds for his AOE's and melee/ranged to kill you, while he regens to nearly full life as you hit him with everything you have.
3. Goes against TR - If he is a POTB TR, you can soulforge him sure, even beat them if they mess up their rotation but you will lose to the best, and the perma's you just have to get to a truce to where you both just stand there and get on youtube for 2 hours while the other 4 people fight everyone else. Because countering their TR with a GF is the best scenario for your team with the GF
4. Goes against Cleric - reflect build can't do enough to kill it, damage spec if you time alllllll of your prones to hit, can eventually kill any cleric, but it will take a while, and usually someone else shows up and kills you
So he wants either more reflect, longer shield durations, longer/better block, or more damage/prones etc
- So essentially to fix the GF for everyone. They would have to increase the control - either by restoring the prones to their old glory, or fixing a few other moves like griffon's wrath. They would have to increase damage so in PVE it's not just more useful to take another class because we know dungeon mechanics will not be changed, they just add more adds and call it a day. They would have to fix the block. The current block is ok, but taking 20% of damage in PVE will still bring you down REALLY fast, and in pvp, it still just doesn't last long enough, and a big problem was the delay, which if restored to mod 2 would allow the good GF's who only blocked when they needed to be much better again. The feats would need fixed to give bonuses that are actually worth taking. The GF has WEAK feats, they increase things in such small increments that it is honestly sad.
In the end, if they did alllllll of that. We would decimate all, get nerfed back to where we are now, and everyone would then go back to playing their other classes.... So long story short, I have no clue what they can do to make everyone happy.
Thought more as soon as i posted...
In pvp, it seems fairly bad, if you are going to hold a node, as it doesn't give you CA, just allies. Ya, it would help your team when they come over, but still don't think it will be much. In pve, it might make a boss fight, single target, go a bit faster, depending on how much CA it adds.