Hi all
I am a gf with 15500 gs. i suupse to be melle att but i allways last in dmg, somtimes LESS then half dmg of the last person before me (number 4 in the dmg table, which make me number 5).
I see this "lamness" in all GF.
this is a lame chrecter and i am sorry i wasted time and money on it. (a fact of how i feel)
now i see you didnt add dmg or att, just threat. nice. so now i will die in 5 sec insted of 10 in Kessel and make 0.25 dmg insted of 0.5 of others.
your strategy, making GWF and CW bad, will not work, GF will stil be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, just now, the rest will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> too.
if u cant make the content more intresting and harder in INTRESTING ways (and not just add mobs like you allways do), dont nerf half ppl.
this all MARK thing is BS, and should be transformed to WAR CRYs that will give real party bonus and real enemy debuff, so ppl will want GF in party allthough the poor dps, same as DC case.
I wish to point out that de-facto, NOBODY WANTS US IN PARTY IN ALMOST EVERY DUNGEON, SKIRMISH OR WHATEVER.
the only place we are realy wanted is FH, and also there we are replceable. in some dongeon, unless a group of friends will make you a favor, u are totaly unwanted. this is a fact.
i wasted tons of time and money on my GF, after 6 monthes, i let it go cuz its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and started CW. now, again, after taking my time and money, u nerf me. to nerf ppl who play more then a year is a bad strategy, but u know better i am sure.
there are other games, and cheaper
so long
yes, we got it, they are tanks. but they are lame tanks and de facto nobody wants in party. now u can talk philosophy as much as u like but if i cant go to parties, its null and void.
Prones were not effected by tenacity which is the main reason they switched to stuns.
On the subject of buff the DPS as the answer to the GF...
They are a tank . Not every class should be a DPS class. The damage output could use a slight buff IMO but they will not and should not turn into the new GWFs. Ideally they should just be the annoying hard to kill class and the features which increase team survivability and DPS is much better than further pushing the DPS race meta nonsense.
I almost replied to Dom right away, glad I kept reading so I didn't have to pull my calculator out =D
So there you go, you're not taking a lot of damage. I'm saying it now, like it was said with GWFs, HRs, CWs.... It's going to be St00pid OP. It's going to be the same thing as the perma'so who skate around a point not attacking for 10 minutes until you catch them with a rotation and wreak them.
There will be a whole flock of no skill GFs sitting on a point holding block. Everyone is gonna get mad, we will get over nerfed and it will be another 4 mods on the bottom.
I've said my piece, I'm right, you'll see. I'm not going to discuss it anymore.
Unrelated, but still kinda related:
Where did I read the 360 degree block thing? Was that a suggestion from a player? Because I thought it was something that was announced by the Devs, am I remembering wrong?
I think your forgetting how easy it would be for 2 people to clear a GF though. So yes this might make GFs the best/easiest 1v1 contest-er in the game, but shouldnt the tank be that?
Especially seeing as it would be easy to send a second person to clear the GF off the node versus Senti GWFs/Permas its still do-able however I would say the GF would be 3rd or 4th in the ability to stay alive against 2 people.
BOTTOM LINE: I dont mind the tank class being the best 1v1 contest-er class.
BUT!!! Im willing to concede that maybe 80%*DR*Tenacity would be too much DR...
So with my suggestion of being able to hold block as long as you want even after block meter is gone, maybe block should be brought down to 70% instead of 80%. What this would do is bring it to about 12%, instead of 8% damage that goes through (a 50% increase). So for every 10k damage, 1200 gets through. I think its a very fine line though in being too weak or too strong, but TBH at this point id rather have it be too strong and have GFs be the best 1v1 node holder than too weak and keep the class ruined.
Especially if they are willing to change contesting so it doesnt remove points gained but only reduces it, then I dont even think I see a problem with 80% block as it is. The only reason your saying its too strong is in light of contesting in domination.
I think your forgetting how easy it would be for 2 people to clear a GF though. So yes this might make GFs the best/easiest 1v1 contest-er in the game, but shouldnt the tank be that?
Especially seeing as it would be easy to send a second person to clear the GF off the node versus Senti GWFs/Permas its still do-able however I would say the GF would be 3rd or 4th in the ability to stay alive against 2 people.
BOTTOM LINE: I dont mind the tank class being the best 1v1 contest-er class.
BUT!!! Im willing to concede that maybe 80%*DR*Tenacity would be too much DR...
So with my suggestion of being able to hold block as long as you want even after block meter is gone, maybe block should be brought down to 70% instead of 80%. What this would do is bring it to about 12%, instead of 8% damage that goes through (a 50% increase). So for every 10k damage, 1200 gets through. I think its a very fine line though in being too weak or too strong, but TBH at this point id rather have it be too strong and have GFs be the best 1v1 node holder than too weak and keep the class ruined.
Especially if they are willing to change contesting so it doesnt remove points gained but only reduces it, then I dont even think I see a problem with 80% block as it is. The only reason your saying its too strong is in light of contesting in domination.
This new Stamina based block will mark the death of gfs ...Why in the hell did the devs remove the already fine block with one that depletes with time and not dmg taken ? It's like they are actually saying that Gf Block is OP or something as it lasts "Way too much" (Getting the irony ? ). I would far prefer the current live block that this stamina 80 % DR / Tenacity jeopardy .
this new stamina based block will mark the death of gfs ...why in the hell did the devs remove the already fine block with one that depletes with time and not dmg taken ? It's like they are actually saying that gf block is op or something as it lasts "way too much" (getting the irony ? ). I would far prefer the current live block that this stamina 80 % dr / tenacity jeopardy .
I almost replied to Dom right away, glad I kept reading so I didn't have to pull my calculator out =D
So there you go, you're not taking a lot of damage. I'm saying it now, like it was said with GWFs, HRs, CWs.... It's going to be St00pid OP. It's going to be the same thing as the perma'so who skate around a point not attacking for 10 minutes until you catch them with a rotation and wreak them.
There will be a whole flock of no skill GFs sitting on a point holding block. Everyone is gonna get mad, we will get over nerfed and it will be another 4 mods on the bottom.
I've said my piece, I'm right, you'll see. I'm not going to discuss it anymore.
Unrelated, but still kinda related:
Where did I read the 360 degree block thing? Was that a suggestion from a player? Because I thought it was something that was announced by the Devs, am I remembering wrong?
im sorry i just had to lol at the fact you said GF's could get over nerfed even though it was about infinite block i mean no offense. the devs will never do this anyway. pretty sure the only time anyone has ever complained about gf's at all was way back in the day with the "broken" stalwart set bonus or maybe first time pvpers that never experienced the glass cannon conqueror build but other than that come on really? i sure do wish we had it like this i would catch all the kiddies tears in a gypsy jar, the day the forums burst out with nerf gf threads i will be rejoicing with a cold one.
on a side note prepare for a mass influx of new hunter rangers and prepare for those threads.
At least we know, who to blame if this goes live. Right Ayroux, my spamming friend?
sigh, i'm close to giving up. Face it, our class will be dead especially in PvP and due to people who have no clue about how we actually function in certain aspects of the game and their feedback being in higher volume as ours. I see TR, HR, GWF main character people giving suggestions in this thread. They're being heard, BUT the ones who play GF as a main and are giving the proper suggestions are constantly being ignored or ridiculued by the newer GF folks.
Yeah gf will be pointless in pvp, we will have nothing apart from a few more hp wow what a huge increase lol now we will take 4 hits to die by a gwf instead of 3.
No matter if you take tenacity or whatever into account the 80% block thing will never work even if it was 90% it is still a terrible idea why do people keep saying its going to work ??
As for the shield the way it works now is fine, its a great system it just needs a buff to activate faster and to be stronger not break in 5 hits but the new stamina one is just terrible, why keep saying the gf cant have high dmg because then all classes would be the same or he needs to be different, well then why give us stamina like all the others ? and why does 4 of the other classes have ways to be almost unkillable in pvp yet i could spend thousands of rl money on my gf and still get ripped by one of the top pvp classes.
Shield should be 100% dmg reduction.
Shield should stick to the same system now but get an activation buff.
Shield should be 3-5 times stronger.
We should also get way more deflect, we have the shield so deflect and deflect severity should come natural to us because that's what a shield does.. deflect attacks.
Pls mr Crash . Consider not changing the Guard system.As you stand with the changes right now the GF class will become EXTINCT on pvp and even more useless in pve .Timer on block will kill the class .
To be honest ,block based on stamina means limited time block.that means in order to defend yourself from spike damage(TR lashing blade from stealth,GWF IBS etc) you have to have your shield up.
That means that a not too bright pvper will wait and dodge and keep his enc/dailies for the time your guard is dawn.Then he will release all his encs/dailies.
This is the final nail in the coffin of GF.
This terrible idea which by all means and terms is a NERF,came from a reknown GWF .Which happen from time to time to play a Gf alt.
i did some one vs one in icewind pass .With one Tr and one HR.Both roughly same gs.14-15 gs.
i stood no hope.No hope really.Tr after ITC entered stealth.What i was suppose to do? Wait for the lashing blade to land and then the bloodbath daily?I raised my shield.Lost 2-3 secs lowered again.Raised up again i had half the block meter.
Bilethorn daggers started ,bam! shield gone.Tr came into melee with the fast at will .i don't remember the name.Well to make story short he killed me as easily kills powries in sharandar.I am rank8 and full corrupted BI gear.
What the 10-12 gs GFs will feel ?They will die like ants.
The HR started ranged combat .raised my shield.Got rooted.he got into stealth.Hit me.raised my shield.bam!!!Shield gone.He finished me in melee.
About pve:As i said in the past certain critters have big hits with out red zones to prepare the player to raise his shielsd.Some examples.
CT final boss
CC final boss
The drow spider half women in tos.Bears in IWD.etc....Good luck tanking them en mass in a midle of red aoe ,effects etc
^^^^
If the changes go to live then GF class is dead.period.Whoever disagrees is completely delussional and/or a complete liar.
Since Chris G.Crusher said they are looking only to the new block and old is scrapped permanently we need:
Double AT LEAST duration of block.The default block should be 7-8 secs minimum.And to be regenarated in 4-6 secs.
And since our block got a big NERF ,the devs might want to compenstate the class by giving us some control powers.
Griffons Wrath should have the same effect with daze strike of Trs.Or slighlty lower but centainly the stun effect needs a boost.Now it is not really noticable.
Crushing pin is currently at 3 secs. 3 secs?that;s a **** at will hit! At least 6 secs duration.
Generally to improve our control powers since the term "dps" causes the devs an allergy when they read it from GFs...:p
I think its really funny because a few select players are saying the stamina based indefinite block would make GFs too OP, then you have a bunch of people saying this change is making GFs worthless.
Like I said, Id rather have GFs be too good at solo node holding, and potentially tone them back in PVP versus them still being too weak. Id rather have a GF (the tank class btw) become the best solo node holder than any other class - which even IF my changes went into play id still bet GF wouldnt be the "go to" since it would be MUCH easier to clear a GF off a node than a GWF or TR.
We can all agree the current block on live sucks, the current block on PTR sucks.
The current block on PTR could be PERFECT, if they extended my idea of allowing block to be held indefinitely - even once the meter runs out.
Fully exhausting block, takes about 4 seconds for enough of your meter to come back to hold it again - and this STILL wouldnt be the "tactical" block allowing you offense, purely a defensive ability.
Will there be GFs perma blocking who cant play well? Sure! Just like there have been Sent GWFs who can roll their face and perma contest, just like there are perma TRs who dont require much skill - or atleast much LESS than before to contest.
Id really like to see my GF changes hit PTR, and IF contesting was changes as well, I think GF would be in a perfect spot.
he would be VERY difficult to kill 1v1 however he would also STILL have a difficult time KILLING as well, so that seems balanced. With two players coordinating he would still be pretty easy to wipe out - which is why I dont think it would be THAT OP.
All they need to do is adjust the current PTR block with one minor change:
- While holding block, you can continue to do so indefinitely - even when your block meter hits zero.
What the meter hitting zero tells you is that you cant immediately let go and press block again. On the PTR, and live, it takes about 4 seconds for enough block to regenerate to be able to block again. This is fine.
So if you want to weave in and out of block , to deal offensive abilities, you need to use precise timing with it, or if you need to hold block for long periods of time, this mechanic would allow that as well as a true defensive tool.
BTW to the post above - my GF was my main with my GWF as my alt for a very long time, GF was my first class and played GF up until Mod 3 - which for me was the last straw on my GF.
NOBODY asked for the block they implemented on the PTR, and as you will notice in my MANY MANY posts on the offical thread about this, they clearly implemented it wrong.
So dont blame me because the DEVs messed it up, the suggestions I make, are the ones that, if implemented, would cause me to want to play my GF again, but currently both LIVE and PTR are just pathetic for a class.
1- If we are gona use the shield of the preview (block 80% of the damage) it should be unlimited.
2- Or we can get the current system with some buffs, for example, make it impossible to lose more than 15% in 1 sec, so even if there are 10 mobs attacking us the shield will last for almost 7 seconds minimum, also, make it regen a little faster.
For me current shield > shield on preview, I don't like the idea to be blocking the 80% of the damage, I don't like the idea that my shield should have a duration based on time (but there could be a constraint about how much it can last, for example, making it impossible to lose more than the 10% each 0.5 seconds would make our shield last for minimum 5 seconds even if there are 20 guys attacking you), and finally I don't like the idea to have my guard depleted even if there is no one attacking me...
0
zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
edited June 2014
RECKLESS ATTACKER: *REWORKED* Increases damage by 30% for 8 seconds after dealing a critical strike.more inline with PnP feat, and combined with Dex changes makes this more plausible.
I don't like the idea of changing the reckless attacker like that, 1 i will need to wait for my crit to trigger my additional damage which is very wrong in my book
and additional 30% damage? we can get as much as 50% if we actually stack our power at the moment but yes i understand the block meter would be a roadblock there but we hardly ever block in PVE anymore soo this is too conservative for a change
I don't like the idea of changing the reckless attacker like that, 1 i will need to wait for my crit to trigger my additional damage which is very wrong in my book
and additional 30% damage? we can get as much as 50% if we actually stack our power at the moment but yes i understand the block meter would be a roadblock there but we hardly ever block in PVE anymore soo this is too conservative for a change
You only dont block in PVE because the content is pretty easy to outgear, if they release new content for 15k+ GS players youll be blocking alot more damage and thus not have as much in the way of power. Ontop of that, have you looked up the PnP Reckless attacker? It was based around crit.
The Reckless Attacker change would ONLY work if DEVs implemented crit onto DEX. So for PVE it would be VERY easy for GFs to see 35%+ crit which means youd literally have almost 100% uptime with 30% damage. I think its a pretty fair tradeoff IMO.
Plus that would ALSO free you up to not have to stack power, and could stack some other stats if needed.
For PVP, the current Reckless attacker is honestly pitiful, to be competative you cant stack power that far so even in Conq Profound gear at best youll be getting like a 20-25% damage boost, and you almost never have full block meter.
So this would be a balance from PVE to PVP to aid GFs in both areas.
So for OVERgeared players in PVE, sure might be a small DPS nerf. But I think for the majority of scenarios this would be better, especially if they roll out new/difficult content.
0
zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
You only dont block in PVE because the content is pretty easy to outgear, if they release new content for 15k+ GS players youll be blocking alot more damage and thus not have as much in the way of power. Ontop of that, have you looked up the PnP Reckless attacker? It was based around crit.
The Reckless Attacker change would ONLY work if DEVs implemented crit onto DEX. So for PVE it would be VERY easy for GFs to see 35%+ crit which means youd literally have almost 100% uptime with 30% damage. I think its a pretty fair tradeoff IMO.
Plus that would ALSO free you up to not have to stack power, and could stack some other stats if needed.
For PVP, the current Reckless attacker is honestly pitiful, to be competative you cant stack power that far so even in Conq Profound gear at best youll be getting like a 20-25% damage boost, and you almost never have full block meter.
So this would be a balance from PVE to PVP to aid GFs in both areas.
So for OVERgeared players in PVE, sure might be a small DPS nerf. But I think for the majority of scenarios this would be better, especially if they roll out new/difficult content.
I understand your point both in PVE and PVP but 30% damage is still too small. Power and and HP are the only viable stats that can be stacked right now see both this doesn't have a soft cap or diminishing return by that end 30% is a bit of a nerf.
lets put it this way PnP rules has a very small influence on NW but it was base on it so i would prefer to work around it.
why not 30 to 40% then add a little something behind it like additional armor per or crit on top of that 30%, cause frankly speaking 30% is too low for a GF that have the lowest wpn damage in the game
look at the GWF destroyer feat - 10% damage during unstoppable + gains determination during dealing damage (they don't have too slot the feat determination now that does the same thing) + 2% or 1% additional damage for every stack of destroyers purpose
and for a GF 30% damage for every crit that doesn't stack - this design is too "Meh" without too much thought behind it (no offense)
I don't like the idea of changing the reckless attacker like that, 1 i will need to wait for my crit to trigger my additional damage which is very wrong in my book
and additional 30% damage? we can get as much as 50% if we actually stack our power at the moment but yes i understand the block meter would be a roadblock there but we hardly ever block in PVE anymore soo this is too conservative for a change
if the conq is going to be a real dps path it needs this and DEX to add 0.5% crit per points over 10 this would absolve us from power stacking as much. If i can get an extra 5% in crit I would remove 2 or 3 of my radiants to get azures and get a vorp.
I understand your point both in PVE and PVP but 30% damage is still too small. Power and and HP are the only viable stats that can be stacked right now see both this doesn't have a soft cap or diminishing return by that end 30% is a bit of a nerf.
lets put it this way PnP rules has a very small influence on NW but it was base on it so i would prefer to work around it.
why not 30 to 40% then add a little something behind it like additional armor per or crit on top of that 30%, cause frankly speaking 30% is too low for a GF that have the lowest wpn damage in the game
look at the GWF destroyer feat - 10% damage during unstoppable + gains determination during dealing damage (they don't have too slot the feat determination now that does the same thing) + 2% or 1% additional damage for every stack of destroyers purpose
and for a GF 30% damage for every crit that doesn't stack - this design is too "Meh" without too much thought behind it (no offense)
40% seems too high. Even 30% ends up beating out most "capstone" feats for most classes.
HR Ranged tree = 30%.
The ONLY one thats better than 30% is a GWF which IMO should be scales back some, because 50% is just stupid.
30% seems fair to me.
With GWFs getting a pretty big nerf to unstoppable, with CWs being pushed more towards control, im honestly not interesting in providing balance changes with GFs outgearing content in mind. With that as well, if a GF was able to get crit on Dex, that would be a nice damage boost with a vorpal so there is that as well and ontop of all that, you could block attacks and still have full benefit from the capstone.
Maybe if you think damage would be too low, GFs need a re-work on another feat, but asking for a bigger re-work on a Capstone that would have near 100% uptime @ 30% damage boost seems overkill. Combat Superiority grants a total of 20% bonus damage as well on a T4 feat. Maybe Menacing Impact needs to increase the duration of Villians Mennace for a longer uptime there with more damage.
They already increased the cap on ET as well which will also help.
So again, im more concerned with PVP and future PVE content than focusing on a DPS loss to a CN run by a GF who stacks 8k+ power. Hes probably significantly outgearing the content, which is why he is able to get such DPS boost -> from not having to block.
You have to also think about PVP and I think even the 30% dmg boost would be pretty powerul.
All they need to do is adjust the current PTR block with one minor change:
- While holding block, you can continue to do so indefinitely - even when your block meter hits zero.
What the meter hitting zero tells you is that you cant immediately let go and press block again. On the PTR, and live, it takes about 4 seconds for enough block to regenerate to be able to block again. This is fine.
So if you want to weave in and out of block , to deal offensive abilities, you need to use precise timing with it, or if you need to hold block for long periods of time, this mechanic would allow that as well as a true defensive tool.
BTW to the post above - my GF was my main with my GWF as my alt for a very long time, GF was my first class and played GF up until Mod 3 - which for me was the last straw on my GF.
NOBODY asked for the block they implemented on the PTR, and as you will notice in my MANY MANY posts on the offical thread about this, they clearly implemented it wrong.
So dont blame me because the DEVs messed it up, the suggestions I make, are the ones that, if implemented, would cause me to want to play my GF again, but currently both LIVE and PTR are just pathetic for a class.
We don't blame you Brother but as i said the new Stamina based Block will be our downfall .
Prones were not effected by tenacity which is the main reason they switched to stuns.
Yeah, funny story, I seem to recall a line in the patch notes for the PvP update that said "Prone duration is now affected by control resist", which is simply not true at all.
0
zhaofuoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 129Bounty Hunter
40% seems too high. Even 30% ends up beating out most "capstone" feats for most classes.
HR Ranged tree = 30%.
The ONLY one thats better than 30% is a GWF which IMO should be scales back some, because 50% is just stupid.
30% seems fair to me.
With GWFs getting a pretty big nerf to unstoppable, with CWs being pushed more towards control, im honestly not interesting in providing balance changes with GFs outgearing content in mind. With that as well, if a GF was able to get crit on Dex, that would be a nice damage boost with a vorpal so there is that as well and ontop of all that, you could block attacks and still have full benefit from the capstone.
Maybe if you think damage would be too low, GFs need a re-work on another feat, but asking for a bigger re-work on a Capstone that would have near 100% uptime @ 30% damage boost seems overkill. Combat Superiority grants a total of 20% bonus damage as well on a T4 feat. Maybe Menacing Impact needs to increase the duration of Villians Mennace for a longer uptime there with more damage.
They already increased the cap on ET as well which will also help.
So again, im more concerned with PVP and future PVE content than focusing on a DPS loss to a CN run by a GF who stacks 8k+ power. Hes probably significantly outgearing the content, which is why he is able to get such DPS boost -> from not having to block.
You have to also think about PVP and I think even the 30% dmg boost would be pretty powerul.
Oh come on,why would you put our damage increase on line with an HR simply because they also have 30% increase in their capstone doesn't justify their larger wpn damage vs the GF.
what i am trying to put here is 30% increase damage is useless in a GF wpn damage.
what we want is something additional for our GF capstones as it is simply luckester compared too all other class.
Protector capstone vs sentinel capstone?
Conqueror capstone vs destroyer captone?
do we even have to compare here?
Also combat superiority doesn't add 20% it's only 15% feated not 20%
the marked is a good group buff but i would also want to benefit from this rather than just allies- i'm sick and tired of being a "buffer pet"
Old block-blocks 100% damage.
New block-block 80% damage.
Old block-can hold up forever until break.Can regen while holding up if no hit is taken.
New block-can hold for 4-5 seconds until break. Cant regen while holding up if no hit is taken.
Old block-too weak even with feats/skill and set bonuses.
New block-Drain too fast even with feats/skill and set bonuses.
Old block-move slow while guard is up.
New block-move faster(?)while guard is up.
Aggravating strike useful for old block not so with new block.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Now which block system would you prefer? For me I choose the old one with some buffs.
Thank you.
Now that block is only 80%, I think its only fair to have it have much more an "uptime" than previously. Think of how many times TRs use stealth, or CWs use Spell Mastery, or GWFs use Unstoppable - MANY times per fight. GFs are the only one who once block is used, have to wait almost 15 seconds for full block again, thats WAY too long IMO.
Agreed.
But I just have to point out that Block is the GF's defensive utility, just like Dodge/Teleport/Shift/Sprint, and not the Class Mechanic like Stealth/Mastery/Unstoppable. I think the devs are molding the Block Mechanic with this in mind. But we also cannot dismiss the fact that the GFs have the most lackluster class mechanic in the game (to the point that we start to think that it's Block, and not Mark which is a terrible mechanic), and how the GFs were modeled was obviously not too well thought out.
What makes the GF's class mechanic so utterly bad is its complete and total lack of interactions with our encounter powers. Let's think of how Clerics, Rogues and Wizards get extra effects for their encounter powers whenever they use their given mechanics, GFs have none of those. What the GFs have instead are 2 extra At-Wills and a 100' range Mark that's good for pulling things... that doesn't sound too useful, right.
I know people are so stressed out with how Block currently is, but we have to remember that this is our Defensive Mechanic. That is so easy to fix and I'm pretty sure the devs already has one that will satisfy those who like the new mechanic and those who like the current one. The bigger, more terrible picture for GFs will not be addressed by deciding which version of Block is better. If we want the GF to improve, we need to get better interactivity with our class mechanic and our class powers. 2 At-Wills from Guarding isn't going to cut it. We have Mark, but what exactly can we do with it? It can buff and debuff but that can only do so little. We need more creative GF encounter interactions with Mark. Or just introduce a new mechanic altogether like that "Taunt Meter" Ayroux and I have been suggesting before (with a couple of personal variations). It would be useful for both PVE and PVP as the Taunt mechanic would reduce the damage our Taunted enemy will deal to our party by 100% with a full meter discharged (5 pips, -20% damage debuff per pip, goes through Immunity), effectively locking him in a 1 vs. 1 combat with you because he'll have to get past you before he reaches your allies. Now THAT is a Guardian, right? If Mark is retained, our encounters should have certain extra effects whenever our enemies are Marked. Interactivity with our true class mechanics will create a better GF.
But I just have to point out that Block is the GF's defensive utility, just like Dodge/Teleport/Shift/Sprint, and not the Class Mechanic like Stealth/Mastery/Unstoppable. I think the devs are molding the Block Mechanic with this in mind. But we also cannot dismiss the fact that the GFs have the most lackluster class mechanic in the game (to the point that we start to think that it's Block, and not Mark which is a terrible mechanic), and how the GFs were modeled was obviously not too well thought out.
What makes the GF's class mechanic so utterly bad is its complete and total lack of interactions with our encounter powers. Let's think of how Clerics, Rogues and Wizards get extra effects for their encounter powers whenever they use their given mechanics, GFs have none of those. What the GFs have instead are 2 extra At-Wills and a 100' range Mark that's good for pulling things... that doesn't sound too useful, right.
I know people are so stressed out with how Block currently is, but we have to remember that this is our Defensive Mechanic. That is so easy to fix and I'm pretty sure the devs already has one that will satisfy those who like the new mechanic and those who like the current one. The bigger, more terrible picture for GFs will not be addressed by deciding which version of Block is better. If we want the GF to improve, we need to get better interactivity with our class mechanic and our class powers. 2 At-Wills from Guarding isn't going to cut it. We have Mark, but what exactly can we do with it? It can buff and debuff but that can only do so little. We need more creative GF encounter interactions with Mark. Or just introduce a new mechanic altogether like that "Taunt Meter" Ayroux and I have been suggesting before (with a couple of personal variations). It would be useful for both PVE and PVP as the Taunt mechanic would reduce the damage our Taunted enemy will deal to our party by 100% with a full meter discharged (5 pips, -20% damage debuff per pip, goes through Immunity), effectively locking him in a 1 vs. 1 combat with you because he'll have to get past you before he reaches your allies. Now THAT is a Guardian, right? If Mark is retained, our encounters should have certain extra effects whenever our enemies are Marked. Interactivity with our true class mechanics will create a better GF.
Old block-blocks 100% damage.
New block-block 80% damage.
Old block-can hold up forever until break.Can regen while holding up if no hit is taken.
New block-can hold for 5-7 seconds until break. Cant regen while holding up if no hit is taken.
Old block-too weak even with feats/skill and set bonuses.
New block-Drain too fast even with feats/skill and set bonuses.
Old block-move slow while guard is up.
New block-move faster(?)while guard is up.
Aggravating strike useful for old block not so with new block.
This is the opinion of one poster on the non official feedback thread. He is pretty much right on everything . This change will be considered a huge NERF for gf class ,one change that no1 wishes to encounter on mod4 .
What makes the GF's class mechanic so utterly bad is its complete and total lack of interactions with our encounter powers. Let's think of how Clerics, Rogues and Wizards get extra effects for their encounter powers whenever they use their given mechanics, GFs have none of those. What the GFs have instead are 2 extra At-Wills and a 100' range Mark that's good for pulling things... that doesn't sound too useful, right.
Because you don't understand how to utilize it properly, mate. Mark adds 16% damage to my spec and it is great, because i can "tag" targets from far away before i actually engange combat, with lunging strike.
Mark is also great against dodging classes, because they think an actual attack is incoming and happily waste their dodges on it. Plus, it is a hard - mark that doesn't wear off upon getting attacked by the tagged target.
Because you don't understand how to utilize it properly, mate. Mark adds 16% damage to my sepc and it is great, because i can "tag" targets from far away before i actually engange combat, with lunging strike.
Mark is also great against dodge happy classes, because they think an actual attack is incoming and happily waste their dodges on it.
Just like how every single GF in the game uses Mark; which is pretty much the only way it can be used. Pull things from afar, lower their DR. Everyone's spec is like that simply because that's the only thing that Mark does.
Friend, how exactly can I be satisfied with such a bland and uncreative mechanic when I see classes with Mechanics like the HR that effectively gives him 6 encounters to use, the GWF which is a reusable CC-break and a Hulk mode, the CW with the 4th encounter slot and an increase in effect potency (a utility knife so to speak), and best of all, the TR which has arguably the best mechanic in the game.
With all these good mechanics in the game, what exactly is stopping the devs from giving the GFs something on par with the ones I mentioned? I like how Mark no longer goes away when the GF is struck, but I'm sure it's not that hard to think of a more creative class mechanic for tanks. That's just what I wanted to raise here, and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying Colonelwing. We don't have to settle for hamburger all the time when we can have steak that everyone else is having.
Comments
I am a gf with 15500 gs. i suupse to be melle att but i allways last in dmg, somtimes LESS then half dmg of the last person before me (number 4 in the dmg table, which make me number 5).
I see this "lamness" in all GF.
this is a lame chrecter and i am sorry i wasted time and money on it. (a fact of how i feel)
now i see you didnt add dmg or att, just threat. nice. so now i will die in 5 sec insted of 10 in Kessel and make 0.25 dmg insted of 0.5 of others.
your strategy, making GWF and CW bad, will not work, GF will stil be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, just now, the rest will be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> too.
if u cant make the content more intresting and harder in INTRESTING ways (and not just add mobs like you allways do), dont nerf half ppl.
this all MARK thing is BS, and should be transformed to WAR CRYs that will give real party bonus and real enemy debuff, so ppl will want GF in party allthough the poor dps, same as DC case.
I wish to point out that de-facto, NOBODY WANTS US IN PARTY IN ALMOST EVERY DUNGEON, SKIRMISH OR WHATEVER.
the only place we are realy wanted is FH, and also there we are replceable. in some dongeon, unless a group of friends will make you a favor, u are totaly unwanted. this is a fact.
i wasted tons of time and money on my GF, after 6 monthes, i let it go cuz its <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and started CW. now, again, after taking my time and money, u nerf me. to nerf ppl who play more then a year is a bad strategy, but u know better i am sure.
there are other games, and cheaper
so long
again, i must point out this is a lame startegy. i will stop reading now, its pointless. i will just say again:
MAKING OTHER LESS GOOD WILL NOT MAKE A BAD THING BETTER
i know its hard for you, comon folk, to sustain complicated thoughts for long, so just take it as an axiom
I think your forgetting how easy it would be for 2 people to clear a GF though. So yes this might make GFs the best/easiest 1v1 contest-er in the game, but shouldnt the tank be that?
Especially seeing as it would be easy to send a second person to clear the GF off the node versus Senti GWFs/Permas its still do-able however I would say the GF would be 3rd or 4th in the ability to stay alive against 2 people.
BOTTOM LINE: I dont mind the tank class being the best 1v1 contest-er class.
BUT!!! Im willing to concede that maybe 80%*DR*Tenacity would be too much DR...
So with my suggestion of being able to hold block as long as you want even after block meter is gone, maybe block should be brought down to 70% instead of 80%. What this would do is bring it to about 12%, instead of 8% damage that goes through (a 50% increase). So for every 10k damage, 1200 gets through. I think its a very fine line though in being too weak or too strong, but TBH at this point id rather have it be too strong and have GFs be the best 1v1 node holder than too weak and keep the class ruined.
Especially if they are willing to change contesting so it doesnt remove points gained but only reduces it, then I dont even think I see a problem with 80% block as it is. The only reason your saying its too strong is in light of contesting in domination.
This new Stamina based block will mark the death of gfs ...Why in the hell did the devs remove the already fine block with one that depletes with time and not dmg taken ? It's like they are actually saying that Gf Block is OP or something as it lasts "Way too much" (Getting the irony ? ). I would far prefer the current live block that this stamina 80 % DR / Tenacity jeopardy .
im sorry i just had to lol at the fact you said GF's could get over nerfed even though it was about infinite block i mean no offense. the devs will never do this anyway. pretty sure the only time anyone has ever complained about gf's at all was way back in the day with the "broken" stalwart set bonus or maybe first time pvpers that never experienced the glass cannon conqueror build but other than that come on really? i sure do wish we had it like this i would catch all the kiddies tears in a gypsy jar, the day the forums burst out with nerf gf threads i will be rejoicing with a cold one.
on a side note prepare for a mass influx of new hunter rangers and prepare for those threads.
Yeah gf will be pointless in pvp, we will have nothing apart from a few more hp wow what a huge increase lol now we will take 4 hits to die by a gwf instead of 3.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
As for the shield the way it works now is fine, its a great system it just needs a buff to activate faster and to be stronger not break in 5 hits but the new stamina one is just terrible, why keep saying the gf cant have high dmg because then all classes would be the same or he needs to be different, well then why give us stamina like all the others ? and why does 4 of the other classes have ways to be almost unkillable in pvp yet i could spend thousands of rl money on my gf and still get ripped by one of the top pvp classes.
Shield should be 100% dmg reduction.
Shield should stick to the same system now but get an activation buff.
Shield should be 3-5 times stronger.
We should also get way more deflect, we have the shield so deflect and deflect severity should come natural to us because that's what a shield does.. deflect attacks.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
That means that a not too bright pvper will wait and dodge and keep his enc/dailies for the time your guard is dawn.Then he will release all his encs/dailies.
This is the final nail in the coffin of GF.
This terrible idea which by all means and terms is a NERF,came from a reknown GWF .Which happen from time to time to play a Gf alt.
i did some one vs one in icewind pass .With one Tr and one HR.Both roughly same gs.14-15 gs.
i stood no hope.No hope really.Tr after ITC entered stealth.What i was suppose to do? Wait for the lashing blade to land and then the bloodbath daily?I raised my shield.Lost 2-3 secs lowered again.Raised up again i had half the block meter.
Bilethorn daggers started ,bam! shield gone.Tr came into melee with the fast at will .i don't remember the name.Well to make story short he killed me as easily kills powries in sharandar.I am rank8 and full corrupted BI gear.
What the 10-12 gs GFs will feel ?They will die like ants.
The HR started ranged combat .raised my shield.Got rooted.he got into stealth.Hit me.raised my shield.bam!!!Shield gone.He finished me in melee.
About pve:As i said in the past certain critters have big hits with out red zones to prepare the player to raise his shielsd.Some examples.
CT final boss
CC final boss
The drow spider half women in tos.Bears in IWD.etc....Good luck tanking them en mass in a midle of red aoe ,effects etc
^^^^
If the changes go to live then GF class is dead.period.Whoever disagrees is completely delussional and/or a complete liar.
Since Chris G.Crusher said they are looking only to the new block and old is scrapped permanently we need:
Double AT LEAST duration of block.The default block should be 7-8 secs minimum.And to be regenarated in 4-6 secs.
And since our block got a big NERF ,the devs might want to compenstate the class by giving us some control powers.
Griffons Wrath should have the same effect with daze strike of Trs.Or slighlty lower but centainly the stun effect needs a boost.Now it is not really noticable.
Crushing pin is currently at 3 secs. 3 secs?that;s a **** at will hit! At least 6 secs duration.
Generally to improve our control powers since the term "dps" causes the devs an allergy when they read it from GFs...:p
Like I said, Id rather have GFs be too good at solo node holding, and potentially tone them back in PVP versus them still being too weak. Id rather have a GF (the tank class btw) become the best solo node holder than any other class - which even IF my changes went into play id still bet GF wouldnt be the "go to" since it would be MUCH easier to clear a GF off a node than a GWF or TR.
We can all agree the current block on live sucks, the current block on PTR sucks.
The current block on PTR could be PERFECT, if they extended my idea of allowing block to be held indefinitely - even once the meter runs out.
Fully exhausting block, takes about 4 seconds for enough of your meter to come back to hold it again - and this STILL wouldnt be the "tactical" block allowing you offense, purely a defensive ability.
Will there be GFs perma blocking who cant play well? Sure! Just like there have been Sent GWFs who can roll their face and perma contest, just like there are perma TRs who dont require much skill - or atleast much LESS than before to contest.
Id really like to see my GF changes hit PTR, and IF contesting was changes as well, I think GF would be in a perfect spot.
he would be VERY difficult to kill 1v1 however he would also STILL have a difficult time KILLING as well, so that seems balanced. With two players coordinating he would still be pretty easy to wipe out - which is why I dont think it would be THAT OP.
All they need to do is adjust the current PTR block with one minor change:
- While holding block, you can continue to do so indefinitely - even when your block meter hits zero.
What the meter hitting zero tells you is that you cant immediately let go and press block again. On the PTR, and live, it takes about 4 seconds for enough block to regenerate to be able to block again. This is fine.
So if you want to weave in and out of block , to deal offensive abilities, you need to use precise timing with it, or if you need to hold block for long periods of time, this mechanic would allow that as well as a true defensive tool.
BTW to the post above - my GF was my main with my GWF as my alt for a very long time, GF was my first class and played GF up until Mod 3 - which for me was the last straw on my GF.
NOBODY asked for the block they implemented on the PTR, and as you will notice in my MANY MANY posts on the offical thread about this, they clearly implemented it wrong.
So dont blame me because the DEVs messed it up, the suggestions I make, are the ones that, if implemented, would cause me to want to play my GF again, but currently both LIVE and PTR are just pathetic for a class.
1- If we are gona use the shield of the preview (block 80% of the damage) it should be unlimited.
2- Or we can get the current system with some buffs, for example, make it impossible to lose more than 15% in 1 sec, so even if there are 10 mobs attacking us the shield will last for almost 7 seconds minimum, also, make it regen a little faster.
I don't like the idea of changing the reckless attacker like that, 1 i will need to wait for my crit to trigger my additional damage which is very wrong in my book
and additional 30% damage? we can get as much as 50% if we actually stack our power at the moment but yes i understand the block meter would be a roadblock there but we hardly ever block in PVE anymore soo this is too conservative for a change
You only dont block in PVE because the content is pretty easy to outgear, if they release new content for 15k+ GS players youll be blocking alot more damage and thus not have as much in the way of power. Ontop of that, have you looked up the PnP Reckless attacker? It was based around crit.
The Reckless Attacker change would ONLY work if DEVs implemented crit onto DEX. So for PVE it would be VERY easy for GFs to see 35%+ crit which means youd literally have almost 100% uptime with 30% damage. I think its a pretty fair tradeoff IMO.
Plus that would ALSO free you up to not have to stack power, and could stack some other stats if needed.
For PVP, the current Reckless attacker is honestly pitiful, to be competative you cant stack power that far so even in Conq Profound gear at best youll be getting like a 20-25% damage boost, and you almost never have full block meter.
So this would be a balance from PVE to PVP to aid GFs in both areas.
So for OVERgeared players in PVE, sure might be a small DPS nerf. But I think for the majority of scenarios this would be better, especially if they roll out new/difficult content.
I understand your point both in PVE and PVP but 30% damage is still too small. Power and and HP are the only viable stats that can be stacked right now see both this doesn't have a soft cap or diminishing return by that end 30% is a bit of a nerf.
lets put it this way PnP rules has a very small influence on NW but it was base on it so i would prefer to work around it.
why not 30 to 40% then add a little something behind it like additional armor per or crit on top of that 30%, cause frankly speaking 30% is too low for a GF that have the lowest wpn damage in the game
look at the GWF destroyer feat - 10% damage during unstoppable + gains determination during dealing damage (they don't have too slot the feat determination now that does the same thing) + 2% or 1% additional damage for every stack of destroyers purpose
and for a GF 30% damage for every crit that doesn't stack - this design is too "Meh" without too much thought behind it (no offense)
if the conq is going to be a real dps path it needs this and DEX to add 0.5% crit per points over 10 this would absolve us from power stacking as much. If i can get an extra 5% in crit I would remove 2 or 3 of my radiants to get azures and get a vorp.
40% seems too high. Even 30% ends up beating out most "capstone" feats for most classes.
HR Ranged tree = 30%.
The ONLY one thats better than 30% is a GWF which IMO should be scales back some, because 50% is just stupid.
30% seems fair to me.
With GWFs getting a pretty big nerf to unstoppable, with CWs being pushed more towards control, im honestly not interesting in providing balance changes with GFs outgearing content in mind. With that as well, if a GF was able to get crit on Dex, that would be a nice damage boost with a vorpal so there is that as well and ontop of all that, you could block attacks and still have full benefit from the capstone.
Maybe if you think damage would be too low, GFs need a re-work on another feat, but asking for a bigger re-work on a Capstone that would have near 100% uptime @ 30% damage boost seems overkill. Combat Superiority grants a total of 20% bonus damage as well on a T4 feat. Maybe Menacing Impact needs to increase the duration of Villians Mennace for a longer uptime there with more damage.
They already increased the cap on ET as well which will also help.
So again, im more concerned with PVP and future PVE content than focusing on a DPS loss to a CN run by a GF who stacks 8k+ power. Hes probably significantly outgearing the content, which is why he is able to get such DPS boost -> from not having to block.
You have to also think about PVP and I think even the 30% dmg boost would be pretty powerul.
We don't blame you Brother but as i said the new Stamina based Block will be our downfall .
could we have the block indicator back
Oh come on,why would you put our damage increase on line with an HR simply because they also have 30% increase in their capstone doesn't justify their larger wpn damage vs the GF.
what i am trying to put here is 30% increase damage is useless in a GF wpn damage.
what we want is something additional for our GF capstones as it is simply luckester compared too all other class.
Protector capstone vs sentinel capstone?
Conqueror capstone vs destroyer captone?
do we even have to compare here?
Also combat superiority doesn't add 20% it's only 15% feated not 20%
the marked is a good group buff but i would also want to benefit from this rather than just allies- i'm sick and tired of being a "buffer pet"
New block-block 80% damage.
Old block-can hold up forever until break.Can regen while holding up if no hit is taken.
New block-can hold for 4-5 seconds until break. Cant regen while holding up if no hit is taken.
Old block-too weak even with feats/skill and set bonuses.
New block-Drain too fast even with feats/skill and set bonuses.
Old block-move slow while guard is up.
New block-move faster(?)while guard is up.
Aggravating strike useful for old block not so with new block.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Now which block system would you prefer? For me I choose the old one with some buffs.
Thank you.
Agreed.
But I just have to point out that Block is the GF's defensive utility, just like Dodge/Teleport/Shift/Sprint, and not the Class Mechanic like Stealth/Mastery/Unstoppable. I think the devs are molding the Block Mechanic with this in mind. But we also cannot dismiss the fact that the GFs have the most lackluster class mechanic in the game (to the point that we start to think that it's Block, and not Mark which is a terrible mechanic), and how the GFs were modeled was obviously not too well thought out.
What makes the GF's class mechanic so utterly bad is its complete and total lack of interactions with our encounter powers. Let's think of how Clerics, Rogues and Wizards get extra effects for their encounter powers whenever they use their given mechanics, GFs have none of those. What the GFs have instead are 2 extra At-Wills and a 100' range Mark that's good for pulling things... that doesn't sound too useful, right.
I know people are so stressed out with how Block currently is, but we have to remember that this is our Defensive Mechanic. That is so easy to fix and I'm pretty sure the devs already has one that will satisfy those who like the new mechanic and those who like the current one. The bigger, more terrible picture for GFs will not be addressed by deciding which version of Block is better. If we want the GF to improve, we need to get better interactivity with our class mechanic and our class powers. 2 At-Wills from Guarding isn't going to cut it. We have Mark, but what exactly can we do with it? It can buff and debuff but that can only do so little. We need more creative GF encounter interactions with Mark. Or just introduce a new mechanic altogether like that "Taunt Meter" Ayroux and I have been suggesting before (with a couple of personal variations).
This is the opinion of one poster on the non official feedback thread. He is pretty much right on everything . This change will be considered a huge NERF for gf class ,one change that no1 wishes to encounter on mod4 .
Because you don't understand how to utilize it properly, mate. Mark adds 16% damage to my spec and it is great, because i can "tag" targets from far away before i actually engange combat, with lunging strike.
Mark is also great against dodging classes, because they think an actual attack is incoming and happily waste their dodges on it. Plus, it is a hard - mark that doesn't wear off upon getting attacked by the tagged target.
Just like how every single GF in the game uses Mark; which is pretty much the only way it can be used. Pull things from afar, lower their DR. Everyone's spec is like that simply because that's the only thing that Mark does.
Friend, how exactly can I be satisfied with such a bland and uncreative mechanic when I see classes with Mechanics like the HR that effectively gives him 6 encounters to use, the GWF which is a reusable CC-break and a Hulk mode, the CW with the 4th encounter slot and an increase in effect potency (a utility knife so to speak), and best of all, the TR which has arguably the best mechanic in the game.
With all these good mechanics in the game, what exactly is stopping the devs from giving the GFs something on par with the ones I mentioned? I like how Mark no longer goes away when the GF is struck, but I'm sure it's not that hard to think of a more creative class mechanic for tanks. That's just what I wanted to raise here, and I'm sure you understand what I'm saying Colonelwing. We don't have to settle for hamburger all the time when we can have steak that everyone else is having.