My conqueror is going to lose dps, with every second that i am holding up the shield. ...
And on live, some attacks deplete the Guard Meter also in seconds, but the difference: the new system is controllable, the old one not as it is damage-related.
No, it doesn't. HR's/TR's dodge does that. Deflection on a TR means they're using the tiny little parrying blade to deflect incoming attacks. Another questionable aspect of this game's balance would be the fact, that a TR has a deflection severity of 75%, even though their tool for deflecting is 20 times smaller than the shield of a GF.
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Take care.
Yeah, so TRs are just really fat and that makes it easier for them to deflect, same goes for HR and anyone who stacks dexterity. They get fat and round, right?
Oh, wait. TR and HR use their weapons to deflect attacks? Wait. Wait. Isn't that what I started with? How is parrying/deflecting a Fortitude saving throw and not a Reflex saving throw? Why did you start to talk about dodging then? Or do you mean to say that Dexterity adds to the real life gamer's ability to press SHIFT and a movement button at the right time? Go ahead, explain dat 5th grade physics to me again.
Were the mobs getting to the DPS? Where you intercepting them? Or were they simply dropping them before they even had a chance to get close? However, at 16k gs anything can be easy. Maybe lower geared people would be more indicate of the intended challenge rating. I know I ran TOS with my 15k GF (prot) with similiar composition and had no difficulty at all keeping aggro, staying alive or shield break problems. Again, maybe just outgearing content.
Yea, and with this system we can't have the shield to prevent attacks from stealth TRs or whatever, we have to use it intelligently, I don't like this system, I would prefer the older system but buffed...
Seriously doubt the old system is coming back, it seems the momentum is on us. They have not mentioned any TR changes, yet. Perhaps a adjustment to the 'perma stealth'? If i recall, in regular DND you break stealth after you attack. I would be ok with getting hit on a surprise for a stealthed TR but they would break stealth and would not immediately be able to just go back into stealth - they would have to deal with the consequences of breaking stealth with either running or fighting me.
of course when you dodge you don't get damage, you DODGED the attack. when blocking, you still get some of it, think of it, a huge ogre hits you with a mace, you put your shield up, sure, it covers you, but you think you won't feel any pain at all? your arm still receives part of the damage, so you would get hurt, just much less that if you didn't block.
Yeah, what you say about blocking.... it would make sense under the GURPS rules, as blunt trauma. Besides, the shield could result damaged, broken, like the weapons used to hit it...
Now, we are in D&D and if we are trying to be realistic on dodge, no character class at all would be able to instantly change it's location, because NWO handles "dodge" as a sort of small-scale teleportation without any equivalence in the real world; under GURPS, you'll need super-human abilities for mapping such way of "NWO-dodging" that has nothing to do with real world skill or any sense of realism. So, an aim for that realism (or realism as justification for negative changes in blocking) here is, to my view, completely out of place.
Game balance needs to trump real life logic though. If GF is supposed to be the tankiest class and the one to stand there and take the hits, they need at least as good of a Shift power as everyone else.
Agreed, and besides I stress that the Dodge skills of the other classes are by no means realistic. Why GF Block, then, should be "more realistic" than blinking, plane-shifting or teleporting from a place to another?
Yea, and with this system we can't have the shield to prevent attacks from stealth TRs or whatever, we have to use it intelligently, I don't like this system, I would prefer the older system but buffed...
Well actually I think that G Fighters need to use Block intelligently; but with the Blocking system overhauled in the proposed way by the devs and implemented now in the Preview Server, it's just too difficult to handle properly, which isn't a hint of not being intelligent, but rather of the necessity of a sort of "Spider-Man's warning sense".
so now we get animation cancelling didnt you guys have a big hullabaloo about fixing animation cancels?
In PVE being able to interrupt is ideal. Having your IBS/IS/Anvil/Griffon's/Daunting Light blown because someone threw your target away really does suck. The Protector's Speech skirmish was a prime example. The amount of times a newbie/low-level CW, DC and Bull Charge-addicted GF ruined my encounters. . .
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
How about you make block not decreasing at all and that cannot be broken at all with 80 % DR, but(to avoid OP in pvp) ur encounter cooldowns are stoped or maybe slowed untill u put ur shield down. Not sure how this would work but it fell on my mind, just an idea
Lol it would take a lot to make a gf "OP", we have worst dmg out of all the classes even more than a cleric! and we have second worst survivability only a wizard has less than us.
Lol it would take a lot to make a gf "OP", we have worst dmg out of all the classes even more than a cleric! and we have second worst survivability only a wizard has less than us.
Not really. The GF is one of the easiest classes to make OP in PVP. PVP is more about surviving than killing. If the GF didn't die or took ages to die with multiple people attacking it, then it'd be OP in the context of how PVP works in this game.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Not really. The GF is one of the easiest classes to make OP in PVP. PVP is more about surviving than killing. If the GF didn't die or took ages to die with multiple people attacking it, then it'd be OP in the context of how PVP works in this game.
So your saying if the gf was just like the HR, TR or GWF it would be OP sure but that will never happen anyway so all i want is the gf to have some decent survivability not to be killed in 3 hits by a gwf who also has 100x more defence and i don't really care about a dmg buff i understand a gf is meant to be the "tank" class but the problem is we aren't at all in any way tanky and now with these changes we will be pointless.
So your saying if the gf was just like the HR, TR or GWF it would be OP sure but that will never happen anyway so all i want is the gf to have some decent survivability not to be killed in 3 hits by a gwf who also has 100x more defence and i don't really care about a dmg buff i understand a gf is meant to be the "tank" class but the problem is we aren't at all in any way tanky and now with these changes we will be pointless.
PvP, I can understand. But PvE how so? Flourish replaces frontline (5 target AoE) encounter for single target.
You do not need Frontline Surge as Swordmaster, as your area attack would consist of Cleave and Weapon Master's Strike. To prevent Swordmaster from getting only the good powers, they replaced an area encounter with a single target one; why they have to give all the classes such ups and downs, I cannot catch.
You do not need Frontline Surge as Swordmaster, as your area attack would consist of Cleave and Weapon Master's Strike. To prevent Swordmaster from getting only the good powers, they replaced an area encounter with a single target one; why they have to give all the classes such ups and downs, I cannot catch.
Frontline surge knocks enemies prone and with trample the fallen and crushing pin allows us to deal 25% more dmg to the enemy while prone but cleave and weapon master strike are both at wills and both pretty bad, cleave can be ok but cant really be compared to frontline surge and also flourish just isnt as good, its slow and just not as useful as frontline.
I went right away to the Preview and tested the Heroic Encounter "Totem of Auril" on the Icewind Pass. Now, I do not know how you handle your Guardian Fighter, but I had no problems at all; it took its time as I am just a Tactician Swordmaster, but I had not more actually I had less problems on Preview. So, I cannot verify your result.
Well, since that was written I've also cleared the Totems on Preview but as a Protector. My Conq still fails
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Terrifying Impact can be cancelled halfway without losing AP using Guard to show a red line indicator and animation to confuse other players
It always could be, this is nothing new and it's always been a very good thing considering the long cast time, and that the AOE is visible before you you cast it. Although the AOE indicator getting stuck on should be looked at cause it can really mess up the enemy player.
Crush is not saying that block/sprint/doge/teleport/shift interrupt an assailant's powers, but that those will interrupt your own power if you are in the midst of casting/attacking/etc. E.G.: If I pop Terrifying Impact, but the target moves too fast and runs/dodges/etc out of the AoE, then I can hit block quickly to interrupt the casting, and retry TI again.
I was very tired when I read the change first. I was hoping this meant interrupt enemy powers (but NOT put them on cool down) this would have fixed a lot of problems with block and made it useful for preemptive block like we were talking about earlier in the thread. If this is talking about animation canceling well, we can already do that with block so this change isn't going to do much for our class.... Very very disappointed.
I've never heard of a MMO where blocking makes you mitigate 100% of the damage. I think that 80% is nice, IF and only if it actually lasted longer, much longer. Maybe the devs idea is that GFs should get the threat of a entire enemy groups and then resist while other classes nuke them and the cleric heals the tank, like in other games. If the GF receives no damage at all where's the difficult part? just generate threat and then turtle up and receive no damage at all? It doesn't sound right.
That because most MMO's you've played have a "chance to block". Built into their stats, you then stack a "block" stat that determines how much is actually blocked. Neverwinter does not work this way. It's a huge difference man. The block is our dodge/sprint. It needs to be 100%. As it is now, its not working, all the feedback is indicating that. Buffing the duration will help but it's just a poor mechanic that is failing in testing. They are going to have to change it back or rework it considerably.
So yeah, my initial excitement was misguided this isn't anything that's going to help GF, it will help other classes because animation canceling is OP for certain abilities but we have always had that and we still didn't do well, so now everyone else is just going to be better and we will stay about the same.
I'm still willing to test it of course, but I'm not hopeful at all. You gotta start listening to us at least a little Crush, we play the game ALOT, we may not have all the proprietary formulas and math available to us, but we have something a lot better..... Time /played.
There is a lot of feedback in this thread from many different players of many different gear/skill levels, casual to hardcore, PvE to PvP. Most of us are in agreement on what should be happening (at least generally) and it does not seem like any of it is being considered =\
Enemy Team
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
This is not feedback based on the changes to the Test Shard. It does not belong in the Official Feedback Thread.
The Official Feedback Threads are for you to give your feedback about the changes to the game. They are not a place to discuss your opinions of what is normal for an MMO or to debate whether Animation Canelling is a good or bad thing with other players.
General Rule of Thumb, if you are not directly discussing your experience on the PTS, asking for clarification about a change or answering a question about a change it likely is a discussion.
So your saying if the gf was just like the HR, TR or GWF it would be OP sure but that will never happen anyway so all i want is the gf to have some decent survivability not to be killed in 3 hits by a gwf who also has 100x more defence and i don't really care about a dmg buff i understand a gf is meant to be the "tank" class but the problem is we aren't at all in any way tanky and now with these changes we will be pointless.
A class that already stacks defensive numbers better than any other class receiving passive buffs to these via feats could indeed become problematic in PVP if not well thought out. That much is obvious. Remember, some months ago the GF was the bane of PVP, when among other things he could keep you proned twice as long as he can now. And it was also that level of PVP power that contributed significantly to their subsequent and continued marginalisation in PVE.
I concur that we could do with Plate Agility being doubled per level (2/4/6/8/10 up from 1/2/3/4/5) and that the Protector Tree could get beefed up the deeper you go, but it would have to be tempered with any potential buffs to guard & stamina drain and the enlarged HP pool.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Frontline surge knocks enemies prone and with trample the fallen and crushing pin allows us to deal 25% more dmg to the enemy while prone but cleave and weapon master strike are both at wills and both pretty bad, cleave can be ok but cant really be compared to frontline surge and also flourish just isnt as good, its slow and just not as useful as frontline.
I spoke of PvE.
That is the reason why they enhance Weapon Master's Strike. (Maybe, one day they see the need for other changes too.)
I have played both, on paper your statement reads fine, in practice the Swordmaster deals more damage in the long run; the only downside is, you are doing your main damage with slower At-Wills and if you have to run around, your damage gets easily hampered. Alas, people tend to be bullheaded and refuse to use what paragon path has to offer but demand things they do not have and miss on another paragon path.
But apart from that, please look at the target cap of Frontline Surge and then you are free to repeat your argument to make my day.
Well, since that was written I've also cleared the Totems on Preview but as a Protector. My Conq still fails
I've soloed totems using an Iron Vanguard Protector and Swordmaster Tactician feat. Spamming Into the Fray was critical so I could pop Fighter's Recovery almost endlessly and dodge all the AoE. Just over 13k, so likely considerably worse than what you guys are using. Was significantly easier as a tactician. Have also tried it as a Conq and failed.
Regarding Conq feats, % increases to terrible are still terrible. Only reason conq was used was because no one needed a tanky GF for anything. Not sure if that's changed.
Something interesting to consider is that with the planned WMS buff, the huge AoE combined with the debuff would make a Fighter's Recovery Swordmaster even better. Haven't done the numbers, but would put it much closer to cleave damage.
Also I gave Crushing Surve (healing at-will) a try. More damage than an unbuffed cleave on a single target. Not sure if this is any different than before. Situationally good. Would be nice to see it slightly buffed to compete with the others.
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
No, it doesn't. HR's/TR's dodge does that. Deflection on a TR means they're using the tiny little parrying blade to deflect incoming attacks. Another questionable aspect of this game's balance would be the fact, that a TR has a deflection severity of 75%, even though their tool for deflecting is 20 times smaller than the shield of a GF.
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Take care.
Actually, yes - it does. Its based on a little mechanic in pen and paper DnD called Dex bonus to AC. Because they made AC in this game a flat DR, they translated the Dex bonus as a deflection bonus instead. The shift key dodge mechanic would be more akin to rogues evasion/uncanny dodge abilities.
It doesn't have to make sense to you, but that's the reason for it.
- B
Actually, yes - it does. Its based on a little mechanic in pen and paper DnD called Dex bonus to AC. Because they made AC in this game a flat DR, they translated the Dex bonus as a deflection bonus instead. The shift key dodge mechanic would be more akin to rogues evasion/uncanny dodge abilities.
It doesn't have to make sense to you, but that's the reason for it.
- B
I was wrong in thinking that this was common understanding.
I agree Block shouldn't even diminish if we are going to take 20% damage all the time! I see no reason there should be a timer or stamina or break in our primary ability at all as we are relegated to doing virtually nothing when guard is up?
It seems we are being punished for having a shield! While our sub class gets a Sprint with 30% DR and cc immunity?
Err, their sprint depletes also; aside from that, if they keep the speed, prolong the duration, then it sounds not too bad. Regardless of how its sounds, we have to put it to test first.
Plus, with the old system, Conqueror builds lost quickly their Guard Meter and with it their Power, so the biggest difference seems to be the inability to block preventatively.
I agree with this a lot, I would also add: - Iron Warrior: This power should be able to be activated while moving (like Knight's Valor).
- Weapon Damage: We need something like a 12~15% buff in all our weapons damage (note that even with the 12~15% buff we would still have the worst weapon damage in the game).
- Buff our feats: We need better feats than the one that we currently have, for example, +5 AC, +5 Deflect Chance, or have +5% HP when you are crit with an ICD of 50 seconds are very weak feats...
We need little buffs in every aspect to be viable in PvE or PvP...
The 5% deflect isn't that bad but all the others are, the whole protector tree other than the deflect is just terrible, it doesnt really increase survivability at all.
Why are we looking DnD mechanics?, I don't know them and for what I know this game just ignore all of them too.
DD4 mechanics are everywhere in this game, often mutated or changed; but DD4 philosophies are usually far from being irrelevant.
In my mind too, deflection is linked to DEX/INT bonus to AC or Reflex defense ...
Olaf, freelance guardian fighter.
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
BOOM! GFs just got about 5-7% more deflect from my suggestion (depending on DEX roll).
Oh whats that? GFs have the LOWEST crit chance in the game? BOOM! DEX gives Crit... GFs just got about 5-7% more crit depending on DEX roll....
One of the biggest problems with GFs has always been slow attacks+low weapon damage = no good weapon enchants.
Giving GFs a LITTLE bit more crit makes vorpal atleast one decent enchantment available for use.
Giving them more deflect helps the tankiness outside of block (and now inside as I ASSUME you can deflect the 20% damage NOT absorbed by block)
I really think just those three changes above:
STATS/Reckless/Block
Would make both offensive and defensive GFs really be formidable foes.... Id REALLY like to see it on the PTR.
Yeah i love the stat changes but i don't think it would make us formidable foes it would just make us a little better. IF these mod 4 changes happen we will be about 60% weaker due to our shield so your changes could be a good idea.
Also your idea for reckless attacker i prefer the power bonus atm that shouldn't be changed...
yeah thats a good idea but that wont happen, HR and TR can get 40% deflect chance with low deflect and gwf can get 50% or more but you show me 1 gf with 40% deflect....we have the shield we should have more base defence and deflect than anyone but for some reason the "tank" class has the second worst survivability lol
In my experience, tanks in all MMOs had the highest defense among all classes together with block (chance or another mechanics). Melee striker classes had some kind of 'deflection' like parry, so those received high damage hits, but had a great chance to completely (or greatly) reduce the damage of an incoming attack.
In this game TRs have similar mechanics - low defense, but great chance to almost completely negate an attack due to deflection. Tanks have great defense, BUT the problem is most of the classes can effectively stack defense to soft cap, what negates the point of GF - be a tank with high damage resistance. Add here an enormous amount of DR debuffs, and we've got a tank with zero defense and useless block.
GF could have a feat, that increases the amount of defense needed to reach the soft cap. This would result in getting more damage resistance by stacking defense, which GFs can do extremely well.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
yeah thats a good idea but that wont happen, HR and TR can get 40% deflect chance with low deflect and gwf can get 50% or more but you show me 1 gf with 40% deflect....we have the shield we should have more base defence and deflect than anyone but for some reason the "tank" class has the second worst survivability lol
I agree with y Deflection in adnd represent armors resistance.
Well i can understand GWF have high deflect .
But i realy dont understand why dont have the gf the same number or even greater .
And what a heck TR can have 40% HR can have 40% or more DC can have 40% too but as a GF the cap is only 35%(maxed halfling) why? Evasion is not deflection.
Back in dnd 3ed the two best indestructible warriors are Dwarfen defender and Barbarian .
Now look on GF and GWF shared paragons "in live GWF is ok just fix roar " but GF is a total looser in defensive war boosting her hp is a good step.
In my eyes devs need to rework the existing paragon path to similar op like HR have now in live or in preview both are op.
I know this is late in the game, but what if the new block mechanic was:
1)not based on time, and did not drain at all, ever
2)you still kept your new proposed damage reduction of 80% before your native defenses
But:
1)the aggravating strike/shield bash damage was reduced by 50% (or some number)
2)there was a time interval after you released your shield that penalized your attack in some ways.
Intended use to allow you to defend behind your shield as a 'tank'/defender but at a cost to your offense
Yeah i love the stat changes but i don't think it would make us formidable foes it would just make us a little better. IF these mod 4 changes happen we will be about 60% weaker due to our shield so your changes could be a good idea.
Also your idea for reckless attacker i prefer the power bonus atm that shouldn't be changed...
Im going to have to disagree with you my friend.
If they made Block:
DOUBLE the base duration it is now
DOUBLE the recovery
DIDNT diminish unless in combat.
What you would end up seeing is a stamina block that lasts about 12-15 seconds and a recovery time of about 7-8 seconds.
Which is a TON better than the block on LIVE - even when you take 80% damage (which BTW once u factor in defense and tenacity) its really only like 8% damage, and the fact that its ALOT more re-active AND lasts WAY longer AND recharges WAY faster...
All that combined with the stat rework - which already gave us about 5-8k MORE HP, my changes give us also about 5-8% more deflect AND Crit... Id say GFs would be VERY strong opponents... I cant speak for everyone but you give me a GF with those changes and I bet I could go toe to toe with most classes.
As for Reckless Attacker - there have been many posts and details about why this should be changed. Not only that, but it doesnt even remotely relate to the PnP Reckless Attacker. Ontop of that, it PALES in comparison to other "DPS TREE" capstone feats (See GWFs have 50% and HRs is 30% damage boost) while the doubling of power is more like 12-15% AT MAX capacity which in PVP will be almost never.
The PnP Reckless attacker (AGAIN) is an extra attack after dealing a critical strike. Since "an extra attack" is hard to transition over, I think a GOOD equivalent is a damage bonus after a critical. This ALSO in combination with my DEX change (giving GFs crit) make this MUCH more appealing as a feat.
Comments
And on live, some attacks deplete the Guard Meter also in seconds, but the difference: the new system is controllable, the old one not as it is damage-related.
Yeah, so TRs are just really fat and that makes it easier for them to deflect, same goes for HR and anyone who stacks dexterity. They get fat and round, right?
Oh, wait. TR and HR use their weapons to deflect attacks? Wait. Wait. Isn't that what I started with? How is parrying/deflecting a Fortitude saving throw and not a Reflex saving throw? Why did you start to talk about dodging then? Or do you mean to say that Dexterity adds to the real life gamer's ability to press SHIFT and a movement button at the right time? Go ahead, explain dat 5th grade physics to me again.
Agree with increase range of ET.
The last point sounds like a bug.
Seriously doubt the old system is coming back, it seems the momentum is on us. They have not mentioned any TR changes, yet. Perhaps a adjustment to the 'perma stealth'? If i recall, in regular DND you break stealth after you attack. I would be ok with getting hit on a surprise for a stealthed TR but they would break stealth and would not immediately be able to just go back into stealth - they would have to deal with the consequences of breaking stealth with either running or fighting me.
Yeah, what you say about blocking.... it would make sense under the GURPS rules, as blunt trauma. Besides, the shield could result damaged, broken, like the weapons used to hit it...
Now, we are in D&D and if we are trying to be realistic on dodge, no character class at all would be able to instantly change it's location, because NWO handles "dodge" as a sort of small-scale teleportation without any equivalence in the real world; under GURPS, you'll need super-human abilities for mapping such way of "NWO-dodging" that has nothing to do with real world skill or any sense of realism. So, an aim for that realism (or realism as justification for negative changes in blocking) here is, to my view, completely out of place.
Agreed, and besides I stress that the Dodge skills of the other classes are by no means realistic. Why GF Block, then, should be "more realistic" than blinking, plane-shifting or teleporting from a place to another?
Well actually I think that G Fighters need to use Block intelligently; but with the Blocking system overhauled in the proposed way by the devs and implemented now in the Preview Server, it's just too difficult to handle properly, which isn't a hint of not being intelligent, but rather of the necessity of a sort of "Spider-Man's warning sense".
Now, yeah, I also prefer the earlier system.
In PVE being able to interrupt is ideal. Having your IBS/IS/Anvil/Griffon's/Daunting Light blown because someone threw your target away really does suck. The Protector's Speech skirmish was a prime example. The amount of times a newbie/low-level CW, DC and Bull Charge-addicted GF ruined my encounters. . .
Lol it would take a lot to make a gf "OP", we have worst dmg out of all the classes even more than a cleric! and we have second worst survivability only a wizard has less than us.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Not really. The GF is one of the easiest classes to make OP in PVP. PVP is more about surviving than killing. If the GF didn't die or took ages to die with multiple people attacking it, then it'd be OP in the context of how PVP works in this game.
So your saying if the gf was just like the HR, TR or GWF it would be OP sure but that will never happen anyway so all i want is the gf to have some decent survivability not to be killed in 3 hits by a gwf who also has 100x more defence and i don't really care about a dmg buff i understand a gf is meant to be the "tank" class but the problem is we aren't at all in any way tanky and now with these changes we will be pointless.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Hehe, yup that's what he's saying.
You do not need Frontline Surge as Swordmaster, as your area attack would consist of Cleave and Weapon Master's Strike. To prevent Swordmaster from getting only the good powers, they replaced an area encounter with a single target one; why they have to give all the classes such ups and downs, I cannot catch.
Frontline surge knocks enemies prone and with trample the fallen and crushing pin allows us to deal 25% more dmg to the enemy while prone but cleave and weapon master strike are both at wills and both pretty bad, cleave can be ok but cant really be compared to frontline surge and also flourish just isnt as good, its slow and just not as useful as frontline.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well, since that was written I've also cleared the Totems on Preview but as a Protector. My Conq still fails
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
It always could be, this is nothing new and it's always been a very good thing considering the long cast time, and that the AOE is visible before you you cast it. Although the AOE indicator getting stuck on should be looked at cause it can really mess up the enemy player.
I was very tired when I read the change first. I was hoping this meant interrupt enemy powers (but NOT put them on cool down) this would have fixed a lot of problems with block and made it useful for preemptive block like we were talking about earlier in the thread. If this is talking about animation canceling well, we can already do that with block so this change isn't going to do much for our class.... Very very disappointed.
That because most MMO's you've played have a "chance to block". Built into their stats, you then stack a "block" stat that determines how much is actually blocked. Neverwinter does not work this way. It's a huge difference man. The block is our dodge/sprint. It needs to be 100%. As it is now, its not working, all the feedback is indicating that. Buffing the duration will help but it's just a poor mechanic that is failing in testing. They are going to have to change it back or rework it considerably.
So yeah, my initial excitement was misguided this isn't anything that's going to help GF, it will help other classes because animation canceling is OP for certain abilities but we have always had that and we still didn't do well, so now everyone else is just going to be better and we will stay about the same.
I'm still willing to test it of course, but I'm not hopeful at all. You gotta start listening to us at least a little Crush, we play the game ALOT, we may not have all the proprietary formulas and math available to us, but we have something a lot better..... Time /played.
There is a lot of feedback in this thread from many different players of many different gear/skill levels, casual to hardcore, PvE to PvP. Most of us are in agreement on what should be happening (at least generally) and it does not seem like any of it is being considered =\
This is not feedback based on the changes to the Test Shard. It does not belong in the Official Feedback Thread.
The Official Feedback Threads are for you to give your feedback about the changes to the game. They are not a place to discuss your opinions of what is normal for an MMO or to debate whether Animation Canelling is a good or bad thing with other players.
General Rule of Thumb, if you are not directly discussing your experience on the PTS, asking for clarification about a change or answering a question about a change it likely is a discussion.
A class that already stacks defensive numbers better than any other class receiving passive buffs to these via feats could indeed become problematic in PVP if not well thought out. That much is obvious. Remember, some months ago the GF was the bane of PVP, when among other things he could keep you proned twice as long as he can now. And it was also that level of PVP power that contributed significantly to their subsequent and continued marginalisation in PVE.
I concur that we could do with Plate Agility being doubled per level (2/4/6/8/10 up from 1/2/3/4/5) and that the Protector Tree could get beefed up the deeper you go, but it would have to be tempered with any potential buffs to guard & stamina drain and the enlarged HP pool.
I spoke of PvE.
That is the reason why they enhance Weapon Master's Strike. (Maybe, one day they see the need for other changes too.)
I have played both, on paper your statement reads fine, in practice the Swordmaster deals more damage in the long run; the only downside is, you are doing your main damage with slower At-Wills and if you have to run around, your damage gets easily hampered. Alas, people tend to be bullheaded and refuse to use what paragon path has to offer but demand things they do not have and miss on another paragon path.
But apart from that, please look at the target cap of Frontline Surge and then you are free to repeat your argument to make my day.
At least that much, I am longing for this change for a long time now to see the Guardian Fighter getting a better standing in Deflection.
I've soloed totems using an Iron Vanguard Protector and Swordmaster Tactician feat. Spamming Into the Fray was critical so I could pop Fighter's Recovery almost endlessly and dodge all the AoE. Just over 13k, so likely considerably worse than what you guys are using. Was significantly easier as a tactician. Have also tried it as a Conq and failed.
Regarding Conq feats, % increases to terrible are still terrible. Only reason conq was used was because no one needed a tanky GF for anything. Not sure if that's changed.
Something interesting to consider is that with the planned WMS buff, the huge AoE combined with the debuff would make a Fighter's Recovery Swordmaster even better. Haven't done the numbers, but would put it much closer to cleave damage.
Also I gave Crushing Surve (healing at-will) a try. More damage than an unbuffed cleave on a single target. Not sure if this is any different than before. Situationally good. Would be nice to see it slightly buffed to compete with the others.
Actually, yes - it does. Its based on a little mechanic in pen and paper DnD called Dex bonus to AC. Because they made AC in this game a flat DR, they translated the Dex bonus as a deflection bonus instead. The shift key dodge mechanic would be more akin to rogues evasion/uncanny dodge abilities.
It doesn't have to make sense to you, but that's the reason for it.
- B
I was wrong in thinking that this was common understanding.
Err, their sprint depletes also; aside from that, if they keep the speed, prolong the duration, then it sounds not too bad. Regardless of how its sounds, we have to put it to test first.
Plus, with the old system, Conqueror builds lost quickly their Guard Meter and with it their Power, so the biggest difference seems to be the inability to block preventatively.
The 5% deflect isn't that bad but all the others are, the whole protector tree other than the deflect is just terrible, it doesnt really increase survivability at all.
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In my mind too, deflection is linked to DEX/INT bonus to AC or Reflex defense ...
Enorla, Oh so devoted cleric.
Yeah i love the stat changes but i don't think it would make us formidable foes it would just make us a little better. IF these mod 4 changes happen we will be about 60% weaker due to our shield so your changes could be a good idea.
Also your idea for reckless attacker i prefer the power bonus atm that shouldn't be changed...
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In my experience, tanks in all MMOs had the highest defense among all classes together with block (chance or another mechanics). Melee striker classes had some kind of 'deflection' like parry, so those received high damage hits, but had a great chance to completely (or greatly) reduce the damage of an incoming attack.
In this game TRs have similar mechanics - low defense, but great chance to almost completely negate an attack due to deflection. Tanks have great defense, BUT the problem is most of the classes can effectively stack defense to soft cap, what negates the point of GF - be a tank with high damage resistance. Add here an enormous amount of DR debuffs, and we've got a tank with zero defense and useless block.
GF could have a feat, that increases the amount of defense needed to reach the soft cap. This would result in getting more damage resistance by stacking defense, which GFs can do extremely well.
I agree with y Deflection in adnd represent armors resistance.
Well i can understand GWF have high deflect .
But i realy dont understand why dont have the gf the same number or even greater .
And what a heck TR can have 40% HR can have 40% or more DC can have 40% too but as a GF the cap is only 35%(maxed halfling) why? Evasion is not deflection.
Back in dnd 3ed the two best indestructible warriors are Dwarfen defender and Barbarian .
Now look on GF and GWF shared paragons "in live GWF is ok just fix roar " but GF is a total looser in defensive war boosting her hp is a good step.
In my eyes devs need to rework the existing paragon path to similar op like HR have now in live or in preview both are op.
1)not based on time, and did not drain at all, ever
2)you still kept your new proposed damage reduction of 80% before your native defenses
But:
1)the aggravating strike/shield bash damage was reduced by 50% (or some number)
2)there was a time interval after you released your shield that penalized your attack in some ways.
Intended use to allow you to defend behind your shield as a 'tank'/defender but at a cost to your offense
Im going to have to disagree with you my friend.
If they made Block:
DOUBLE the base duration it is now
DOUBLE the recovery
DIDNT diminish unless in combat.
What you would end up seeing is a stamina block that lasts about 12-15 seconds and a recovery time of about 7-8 seconds.
Which is a TON better than the block on LIVE - even when you take 80% damage (which BTW once u factor in defense and tenacity) its really only like 8% damage, and the fact that its ALOT more re-active AND lasts WAY longer AND recharges WAY faster...
All that combined with the stat rework - which already gave us about 5-8k MORE HP, my changes give us also about 5-8% more deflect AND Crit... Id say GFs would be VERY strong opponents... I cant speak for everyone but you give me a GF with those changes and I bet I could go toe to toe with most classes.
As for Reckless Attacker - there have been many posts and details about why this should be changed. Not only that, but it doesnt even remotely relate to the PnP Reckless Attacker. Ontop of that, it PALES in comparison to other "DPS TREE" capstone feats (See GWFs have 50% and HRs is 30% damage boost) while the doubling of power is more like 12-15% AT MAX capacity which in PVP will be almost never.
The PnP Reckless attacker (AGAIN) is an extra attack after dealing a critical strike. Since "an extra attack" is hard to transition over, I think a GOOD equivalent is a damage bonus after a critical. This ALSO in combination with my DEX change (giving GFs crit) make this MUCH more appealing as a feat.