the point is, don't try to be a CW AND kill rogues
Any class should be able to beat another 1v1. When this is not the case it is an issue of balance. I think this is even the case for DCs who I think should get a tenacity exception for damage when in PvP (despite cries by some DC players who want the horrid unkillable cleric builds back).
okay lets say I agree with you that TR's cant kill from stealth so now there is absolutely no point to using stealth. So what happens when a TR encounters a CW? we currently have ITC, which you also have stated repeatedly is broken, so I am guessing you want that removed as well (you can clarify). so where does that leave us
CW's - damage and CC
TR's - damage
i guess that CW's are now going to win those 1 vs 1 battles 100% of the time now.
okay lets say I agree with you that TR's cant kill from stealth so now there is absolutely no point to using stealth. So what happens when a TR encounters a CW? we currently have ITC, which you also have stated repeatedly is broken, so I am guessing you want that removed as well (you can clarify). so where does that leave us
CW's - damage and CC
TR's - damage
i guess that CW's are now going to win those 1 vs 1 battles 100% of the time now.
TRs still can go to stealth again to regen life and get a headstart in damage. TRs also have impossible to catch and shocking execution.
CW's CC in PVP is a joke now with tenacity. CW's shard is also a joke because TRs can bug it
Okay we can get a head start in damage but with the greatly reduced dps how much are we actually doing? 50% of your health? 25%? 10%? we than pop ITC as we come out of stealth and we now have 5 seconds to kill you or get CC'd and take a boat load of damage.
Okay we can get a head start in damage but with the greatly reduced dps how much are we actually doing? 50% of your health? 25%? 10%? we than pop ITC as we come out of stealth and we now have 5 seconds to kill you or get CC'd and take a boat load of damage.
And? After the stealth is used up, you are at relatively even grounds with a CW.
Also, you realize TRs are able to deal a boatload of damage back to the CW right?
God forbid TRs ACTUALLY LOSE a 1 vs 1 battle with a CW 50% of the time.
Any class should be able to beat another 1v1. When this is not the case it is an issue of balance. I think this is even the case for DCs who I think should get a tenacity exception for damage when in PvP (despite cries by some DC players who want the horrid unkillable cleric builds back).
I agree. I don't get why some classes have to be immune to other ones especially since PVP is as close-knit as it is
no we are not at even ground with a CW if we dont have stealth. That is my point.
without stealth:
CW - Damage and CC
TR - damage
And our damage is already nerfed for most of our powers so we wont lose 50% of the time. we will lose 100% of the time to someone with equal gear and skill.
edit and dont complain about SE as with all the crying we already know its the next TR power to be nerfed.
no we are not at even ground with a CW if we dont have stealth. That is my point.
without stealth:
CW - Damage and CC
TR - damage
And our damage is already nerfed for most of our powers so we wont lose 50% of the time. we will lose 100% of the time to someone with equal gear and skill.
edit and dont complain about SE as with all the crying we already know its the next TR power to be nerfed.
Since you are repeating yourself, let me repeat myself too:
CW : damage, joke CC due to tenacity, Shard is constantly bugged by TRs
TR : damage, shocking execution, impossible to catch
Did you just say you lose to someone 100% of the time with equal skill or gear? Maybe if its a GWF you will lose a lot of times, but any other class you've got to be kidding me
the 100% is if we do not have stealth and that is exactly what will happen. You say CW CC is a joke? well i can tell you the limited CC that a TR has is even more of a joke.
as for Shard i dont know if it can be bugged but that is an entirely different matter and should be brought up the devs.
the 100% is if we do not have stealth and that is exactly what will happen. You say CW CC is a joke? well i can tell you the limited CC that a TR has is even more of a joke.
as for Shard i dont know if it can be bugged but that is an entirely different matter and should be brought up the devs.
Never said to take away stealth. Only stated that stealth DPS should be reduced to make it possible for an elite CW to beat an elite TR in a 1vs1 battle.
TRs have impossible to catch and shocking execution.
Never said to take away stealth. Only stated that stealth DPS should be reduced to make it possible for an elite CW to beat an elite TR in a 1vs1 battle.
TRs have impossible to catch and shocking execution.
okay now I am very confused. All of these threads lately are about perma stealth rogues. So all of a sudden you are now fine with keeping perma stealth if their damage is reduced?
You posted this in a different thread:
"The current PVP meta promotes a lot of 1 vs 1 node battles. That is what WINS games. A team sends either a GWF or TR on enemy node and 1 GWF or TR on their node. The CW is relegated to rotation between nodes because he instantly loses against either class. Also, if the CW is the only one left on mid, he dies. Once stealth is almost gone, TRs pop impossible to catch. And by the way, the CW is also extremely vulnerable to GWFs"
So what does your proposed change to lessen our damage now actually do? all it means is that your CW, which can no longer be killed by a perma stealth TR, is just as effective if not more so to hold a node permanently against an opposing TR
okay now I am very confused. All of these threads lately are about perma stealth rogues. So all of a sudden you are now fine with keeping perma stealth if their damage is reduced?
You posted this in a different thread:
"The current PVP meta promotes a lot of 1 vs 1 node battles. That is what WINS games. A team sends either a GWF or TR on enemy node and 1 GWF or TR on their node. The CW is relegated to rotation between nodes because he instantly loses against either class. Also, if the CW is the only one left on mid, he dies. Once stealth is almost gone, TRs pop impossible to catch. And by the way, the CW is also extremely vulnerable to GWFs"
So what does your proposed change to lessen our damage now actually do? all it means is that your CW, which can no longer be killed by a perma stealth TR, is just as effective if not more so to hold a node permanently against an opposing TR
Yup. I never said to take away perma-stealth. I might have mentioned it as a counter to some people's absurd hypothetical situations, but I never said to completely take away perma-stealth.
I disagree. With the proposed changes, a CW can still be killed with a TR cycling through stealth, impossible to catch and some big finishing encounters.
The difference is, a TR now has to play smart, will lose battles against a CW A LOT depending on who's rotations are better, who is able to set the tempo cannot completely rely on the crutch of stealth (I'd say 50% is the ideal).
If perma-TRs lose battles against a CW 50% of the time, I'd say that is a change in the right direction as far as pvp is concerned
So in a close-knit 5 on 5 match wherein every single person is a big advantage, the CW should wait for another person before attacking the TR who is just hanging around a node giving the enemy team points
Nah, just run up there and use your lantern then oppressive force and wait for backup or try to force the TR off the node, if your icy rays crits em off of ITC they will likely run off to heal rather than risk dying to a CW on the node. If they are a perfect rogue you won't do enough damage to force them off anyhow and will die quickly.
Nah, just run up there and use your lantern then oppressive force and wait for backup or try to force the TR off the node, if your icy rays crits em off of ITC they will likely run off to heal rather than risk dying to a CW on the node. If they are a perfect rogue you won't do enough damage to force them off anyhow and will die quickly.
Well first of all, we don't have our dailies at the start of the match so it won't work that quickly.
Also, you want CWs to use their daily and their artifact just for a chance to see the TR? Meanwhile the TR has his daily loaded and a Waters or even an emblem
people insist in thinking that every class should have 50% to beat another class, I don't think it works like that. In most MMO's some classes are better against one and weak against others. and in most MMo's I've played, rogues are the natural enemies of mages/wizards. But have trouble with knights/fighters/paladins/ whatever that uses heavy armor. In here it's the same.
Wizards should be good against GFs GWFs though, and I don't see that in here. Also rogues shold have trouble killing DC's (actually most classes should have trouble killing these) but in here a DC is an easy target for most other classes.
So I think that CW's should be given skills useful to fight GF's GWF's and DC's should be made more resistant.
(note that HR work like TR in this, hard to fight against plates, easy to fight against rcloth armor)
except with the proposed changes I dont see anything really happening. why attack a CW (or anyone for that matter) if I was a perma stealth tr. I obviously cant kill anyone in stealth so why bother attacking at all and taking the chance of losing. Also what big finishing encounters?
dazing strike - 260 base dmg
Lasing blade - 367 base dmg
deft strike - 200 base dmg
blitz - 153 dmg
path of the blade - 38 base dmg
impact shot - 166 base dmg
shadow strike - 38 base dmg
wicked reminder - 122 base dmg
the only one is Lashing and maybe Dazing but that is super easy to avoid. If i want to go anything considering stealth i already have shadow strike and B&S as two of my encounters so that leaves only Lashing available for 3 slot.
It would be more efficient to stand there and just contest the node for the entire match instead. Why increase the chance to give away my position and possibly lose the node entirely.
Note I am not endorsing that idea as it would be boring as hell.
Every MMO i've played you break stealth to do damage however the openers from stealth were always nasty.
Indeed. Openers were either a high damaging ability aka Lashing Blade or CC aka Dazing Strike. But attacking from stealth without breaking stealth and getting any penalty is just stupid.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
if they change it to break stealth than they better give back a lot of damage as well as rewrite a bunch of different powers and they will now be useless.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Indeed. Openers were either a high damaging ability aka Lashing Blade or CC aka Dazing Strike. But attacking from stealth without breaking stealth and getting any penalty is just stupid.
Attacking with Lashing Blade and Dazing Strike do break stealth, as does any encounter that isn't Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch.
TRs can use at-wills without instantly breaking stealth. And taking this away from them would absolutely shred whatever is left of the class's PvE capability.
Using at-will attacks, the TR is still playing beat-the-clock with a depleting stealth meter.
I have said over and over again that the stealth mechanics that people are used to from other games (attacking instantly breaks stealth no matter what, movement penalty) do not tie stealth to a meter that depletes when stealth is entered and has to be full for the rogue to enter stealth again (also, taking damage makes it harder for that meter to fill up).
If you want that changed, then you need to rework Neverwinter stealth altogether, and probably rework how the TR is supposed to function as a single-target boss-killer as well, because if the TR can't do much to allow them to attack in safety, then they truly are dead weight in PvE.
people insist in thinking that every class should have 50% to beat another class, I don't think it works like that.
So I think that CW's should be given skills useful to fight GF's GWF's and DC's should be made more resistant.
(note that HR work like TR in this, hard to fight against plates, easy to fight against rcloth armor)
CW useful against GWF? That'll be something if it happens
Attacking with Lashing Blade and Dazing Strike do break stealth, as does any encounter that isn't Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch.
TRs can use at-wills without instantly breaking stealth. And taking this away from them would absolutely shred whatever is left of the class's PvE capability.
Using at-will attacks, the TR is still playing beat-the-clock with a depleting stealth meter.
I have said over and over again that the stealth mechanics that people are used to from other games (attacking instantly breaks stealth no matter what, movement penalty) do not tie stealth to a meter that depletes when stealth is entered and has to be full for the rogue to enter stealth again (also, taking damage makes it harder for that meter to fill up).
If you want that changed, then you need to rework Neverwinter stealth altogether, and probably rework how the TR is supposed to function as a single-target boss-killer as well, because if the TR can't do much to allow them to attack in safety, then they truly are dead weight in PvE.
pretty much this. pve-wise, we do need to continue attacking in stealth or what's the point in having us over a gwf? we can be tanky with lots of deflect i guess, but mob spam can and will still kill us so it is highly useful that we can keep re-entering stealth to drop aggro on mobs while we keep nuking the boss. if we can't attack during stealth or if the stealth meter drains too quickly, then we aren't really fulfilling our role as the boss killer and the rest of the team may not have had enough time to aggro the mobs we hid from so they come running back to us.
spellplague is one of the few boss fights where a single mob could kill me from behind if i don't notice it quickly enough to dodge the knockback. attacking them is a losing battle as they have lots of hp and respawn quickly so best way to get rid of them is to just stealth or run around the cleric for a bit and wait for the healing aggro to win. but time spent trying to drop aggro is time that a gwf could easily out-dps us on a single target.
also, all other games that have stealth also have tanks that can actually tank everything and game mechanics were not about mob spam into the nexus. i mean, yeah, some bosses do spawn a lot of mobs that will quickly cause a wipe but those tend to easily be cc'ed or spawned right b4 the boss dies.
pvp-wise, perma-stealth is just annoying to fight against. an easier balance would be to give maybe wizards or clerics an encounter with the ability to see or reveal invisible players.
Comments
Any class should be able to beat another 1v1. When this is not the case it is an issue of balance. I think this is even the case for DCs who I think should get a tenacity exception for damage when in PvP (despite cries by some DC players who want the horrid unkillable cleric builds back).
As a rogue, I still wouldn't care.
CW's - damage and CC
TR's - damage
i guess that CW's are now going to win those 1 vs 1 battles 100% of the time now.
TRs still can go to stealth again to regen life and get a headstart in damage. TRs also have impossible to catch and shocking execution.
CW's CC in PVP is a joke now with tenacity. CW's shard is also a joke because TRs can bug it
And? After the stealth is used up, you are at relatively even grounds with a CW.
Also, you realize TRs are able to deal a boatload of damage back to the CW right?
God forbid TRs ACTUALLY LOSE a 1 vs 1 battle with a CW 50% of the time.
Most of us that play the end game PvP have had enough of this sh**t
Any more Nerfs to the class and you leave us nothing but 2 twigs and No stealth to poke people with.
For the love of christ...Leave the class alone.
Shut your wh*re mouth. Top End CW's fight top End TR's tooth for tooth.
If you cannot kill a TR then the problem lies between keyboard and chair.
Enough said
I agree. I don't get why some classes have to be immune to other ones especially since PVP is as close-knit as it is
without stealth:
CW - Damage and CC
TR - damage
And our damage is already nerfed for most of our powers so we wont lose 50% of the time. we will lose 100% of the time to someone with equal gear and skill.
edit and dont complain about SE as with all the crying we already know its the next TR power to be nerfed.
Since you are repeating yourself, let me repeat myself too:
CW : damage, joke CC due to tenacity, Shard is constantly bugged by TRs
TR : damage, shocking execution, impossible to catch
Did you just say you lose to someone 100% of the time with equal skill or gear? Maybe if its a GWF you will lose a lot of times, but any other class you've got to be kidding me
as for Shard i dont know if it can be bugged but that is an entirely different matter and should be brought up the devs.
Never said to take away stealth. Only stated that stealth DPS should be reduced to make it possible for an elite CW to beat an elite TR in a 1vs1 battle.
TRs have impossible to catch and shocking execution.
I've already dismantled this argument a few pages ago. You are late to the party sir.
Show me a twitch video of an elite perma-TR getting dismantled by an elite CW 1vs1 in the current PVP meta.
By the way, I assume his post is going to get deleted due to the language right?
With stealth:
TR - Damage
CW -
Are you trolling
I think you are trolling.
okay now I am very confused. All of these threads lately are about perma stealth rogues. So all of a sudden you are now fine with keeping perma stealth if their damage is reduced?
You posted this in a different thread:
"The current PVP meta promotes a lot of 1 vs 1 node battles. That is what WINS games. A team sends either a GWF or TR on enemy node and 1 GWF or TR on their node. The CW is relegated to rotation between nodes because he instantly loses against either class. Also, if the CW is the only one left on mid, he dies. Once stealth is almost gone, TRs pop impossible to catch. And by the way, the CW is also extremely vulnerable to GWFs"
So what does your proposed change to lessen our damage now actually do? all it means is that your CW, which can no longer be killed by a perma stealth TR, is just as effective if not more so to hold a node permanently against an opposing TR
Yup. I never said to take away perma-stealth. I might have mentioned it as a counter to some people's absurd hypothetical situations, but I never said to completely take away perma-stealth.
I disagree. With the proposed changes, a CW can still be killed with a TR cycling through stealth, impossible to catch and some big finishing encounters.
The difference is, a TR now has to play smart, will lose battles against a CW A LOT depending on who's rotations are better, who is able to set the tempo cannot completely rely on the crutch of stealth (I'd say 50% is the ideal).
If perma-TRs lose battles against a CW 50% of the time, I'd say that is a change in the right direction as far as pvp is concerned
Nah, just run up there and use your lantern then oppressive force and wait for backup or try to force the TR off the node, if your icy rays crits em off of ITC they will likely run off to heal rather than risk dying to a CW on the node. If they are a perfect rogue you won't do enough damage to force them off anyhow and will die quickly.
Well first of all, we don't have our dailies at the start of the match so it won't work that quickly.
Also, you want CWs to use their daily and their artifact just for a chance to see the TR? Meanwhile the TR has his daily loaded and a Waters or even an emblem
Wizards should be good against GFs GWFs though, and I don't see that in here. Also rogues shold have trouble killing DC's (actually most classes should have trouble killing these) but in here a DC is an easy target for most other classes.
So I think that CW's should be given skills useful to fight GF's GWF's and DC's should be made more resistant.
(note that HR work like TR in this, hard to fight against plates, easy to fight against rcloth armor)
dazing strike - 260 base dmg
Lasing blade - 367 base dmg
deft strike - 200 base dmg
blitz - 153 dmg
path of the blade - 38 base dmg
impact shot - 166 base dmg
shadow strike - 38 base dmg
wicked reminder - 122 base dmg
the only one is Lashing and maybe Dazing but that is super easy to avoid. If i want to go anything considering stealth i already have shadow strike and B&S as two of my encounters so that leaves only Lashing available for 3 slot.
It would be more efficient to stand there and just contest the node for the entire match instead. Why increase the chance to give away my position and possibly lose the node entirely.
Note I am not endorsing that idea as it would be boring as hell.
Indeed. Openers were either a high damaging ability aka Lashing Blade or CC aka Dazing Strike. But attacking from stealth without breaking stealth and getting any penalty is just stupid.
Attacking with Lashing Blade and Dazing Strike do break stealth, as does any encounter that isn't Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch.
TRs can use at-wills without instantly breaking stealth. And taking this away from them would absolutely shred whatever is left of the class's PvE capability.
Using at-will attacks, the TR is still playing beat-the-clock with a depleting stealth meter.
I have said over and over again that the stealth mechanics that people are used to from other games (attacking instantly breaks stealth no matter what, movement penalty) do not tie stealth to a meter that depletes when stealth is entered and has to be full for the rogue to enter stealth again (also, taking damage makes it harder for that meter to fill up).
If you want that changed, then you need to rework Neverwinter stealth altogether, and probably rework how the TR is supposed to function as a single-target boss-killer as well, because if the TR can't do much to allow them to attack in safety, then they truly are dead weight in PvE.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
My armor is not a joke. I'm very tanky.
Except there are no skills to fight perma-TRs that aren't complete garbage and have tons of downsides.
Also, all those skills aren't really viable against good perma-TRs.
You keep saying "change skills, play smart" yet you have yet to say anything smart of anything actually viable in high-level PVP.
CW useful against GWF? That'll be something if it happens
pretty much this. pve-wise, we do need to continue attacking in stealth or what's the point in having us over a gwf? we can be tanky with lots of deflect i guess, but mob spam can and will still kill us so it is highly useful that we can keep re-entering stealth to drop aggro on mobs while we keep nuking the boss. if we can't attack during stealth or if the stealth meter drains too quickly, then we aren't really fulfilling our role as the boss killer and the rest of the team may not have had enough time to aggro the mobs we hid from so they come running back to us.
spellplague is one of the few boss fights where a single mob could kill me from behind if i don't notice it quickly enough to dodge the knockback. attacking them is a losing battle as they have lots of hp and respawn quickly so best way to get rid of them is to just stealth or run around the cleric for a bit and wait for the healing aggro to win. but time spent trying to drop aggro is time that a gwf could easily out-dps us on a single target.
also, all other games that have stealth also have tanks that can actually tank everything and game mechanics were not about mob spam into the nexus. i mean, yeah, some bosses do spawn a lot of mobs that will quickly cause a wipe but those tend to easily be cc'ed or spawned right b4 the boss dies.
pvp-wise, perma-stealth is just annoying to fight against. an easier balance would be to give maybe wizards or clerics an encounter with the ability to see or reveal invisible players.