There is no need to be sorry, because you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference.
But dont worry, these exploit missions obviously arent going anywhere if they havent been removed by now. Despite telling people to report them, they obviously dont care. My point is simply that the review system does not weed out exploit missions due to people such as yourself who endorse and use them, then go around claiming they arent exploits.
Oh, these missions have been reported. These same ones have been around for a very long time and no action has been taken against them. And just so you understand what I'm talking about, STO has a daily mission called "Investigate Officer Reports" where you have to complete 3 foundry missions and then get a reward. These exploit missions which I'm talking about only involve clicking on a console(aka 1 "interact with object" objective, in foundry terminology), and then the mission is over. So all you do is stand in 1 spot and click the console once and it completes all 3 missions in approximately 1 second. Again, these same missions have been around "forever", have been reported, and nothing has been done.
Yes there is. STO's foundry has the same 5 person review system that NW will.
So what's the reward ? How much time from beginning of quest to get into that "spot" does it yake. From your description you arent clear who is exploiting. If YOU know here that spot is, and you keep doing the quest - YOU could be the one that's exploiting, via your own description. Aka is it meant to be run as an entire quest or was an exploit "found" that was unintentional? It could be a game mechanics code fubar that tthe author had no idea about.
Lastly YOU say its an exploit, yet 5 separate entities who dont know each other disagree with you. Strange.
PS: Calling someone out as a cheater is completely uncalled for and is against this forum's code of conduct.
XP and a choice between a box of in game currency which can be traded for game store currency or a box of gear that scales to your level.
How much time from beginning of quest to get into that "spot" does it yake.
If you havent played STO this is going to sound foreign to you, but the mission takes place on Earth Space Dock, which is the main social hub of Starfleet. When you first load into the zone there is a computer panel on the wall, and the mission is to click on that panel. There are 3 missions to do the exact same thing, so clicking on it once completes all 3 in about 1 second.
From your description you arent clear who is exploiting. If YOU know here that spot is, and you keep doing the quest - YOU could be the one that's exploiting, via your own description. Aka is it meant to be run as an entire quest or was an exploit "found" that was unintentional? It could be a game mechanics code fubar that tthe author had no idea about.
It is stated in the mission description what you have to do, which is how people know where to go and what panel to click on. The mission works exactly as it is intended to work; it isnt bugged. It was just intended to speed through the daily mission. Both the person who made it and the people who play it understand exactly what it is.
The game should be about the dungeon not about the chest.
If the reviewer pool is going to be as healthy as it's thought to be I would think upping the number of passes needed to get through the gate would be wise. Also you might consider adding a time factor to the quests in the review pool, i.e. A quest needs to be in the pool for at least a month before it is capable of being shuttled through, it would still be capable of accepting passes or fails though.
How many fails does a quest need before it is yanked from the review pool? Perhaps quests that have been failed during the review process need to be highlighted so that others can more easily look at them and decide for themselves if they should be failed or not.
I could give you a million reasons for why I fail content, but you only need one...
We aren't talking about a game here. We are talking about infinite content creation.
If YOU know here that spot is, and you keep doing the quest - YOU could be the one that's exploiting, via your own description.
PS: Calling someone out as a cheater is completely uncalled for and is against this forum's code of conduct.
I did not call anyone a "cheater". I did point out that certain missions in STO were exploits, and that a Cryptic/PW employee told us to report those kinds of missions. iamtruthseeker then freely admited he did those kinds of missions. If he wants to admit to doing exploits, so be it. If you think that makes he a cheater, so be it. But I did not call him that.
However, if saying someone is exploiting is the same thing as calling them a cheater, then by your own definition you just broke the forum rules yourself in the first sentence quoted above.
I don't really understand what fault are you trying to pick in the foundry system. It is pretty simple system - you report content which doesn't fulfill EULA and you rate the mission according to your opinion. You are even able to write the review to convince others why the mission is bad.
If you want a perfect system, sorry to tell you but no perfect thing exists in this world. Any other system , like one you suggest - I will fail it - pick me up for review - is very unlikeable as much as it is unworkable. The foundry rating system works - thats what it matters. Just like democracy is not perfect but it works. Just like most beautiful things in this world are not perfect but they work. Thats all there is to it.
The game should be about the dungeon not about the chest.
...
We are talking about infinite content creation.
+1.
Ratings will itself decide everything. Creativity should not be strangled or controlled but allowed to grow and prosper. (As long as it doesn't violate EULA )
I don't really understand what fault are you trying to pick in the foundry system. It is pretty simple system - you report content which doesn't fulfill EULA and you rate the mission according to your opinion. You are even able to write the review to convince others why the mission is bad.
If you want a perfect system, sorry to tell you but no perfect thing exists in this world. Any other system , like one you suggest - I will fail it - pick me up for review - is very unlikeable as much as it is unworkable. The foundry rating system works - thats what it matters. Just like democracy is not perfect but it works. Just like most beautiful things in this world are not perfect but they work. Thats all there is to it.
Its a very simple thing when you look at it.
It might be simple yes, but not as simple as it could be. The simplest method would be me stating "I do not like this quest" and then clicking the fail button. If this EULA you mention is anything like other EULA of past years then I expect it to be full of unrecognizable and infinitely interpretable legalese.
We are speaking to the aesthetics of the quest selection system as seen by the player. Is it better for the player to see many similar quests with a few exploits scattered about, or a smaller selection of deeper and more entertaining quests which have been thoroughly vetted.
Yes, everyone can and should be able to create content, but not everyone should be allowed to see it. It is the filter which is the most important. I have yet to see a decent one.
It might be simple yes, but not as simple as it could be. The simplest method would be me stating "I do not like this quest" and then clicking the fail button. If this EULA you mention is anything like other EULA of past years then I expect it to be full of unrecognizable and infinitely interpretable legalese.
We are speaking to the aesthetics of the quest selection system as seen by the player. Is it better for the player to see many similar quests with a few exploits scattered about, or a smaller selection of deeper and more entertaining quests which have been thoroughly vetted.
Yes, everyone can and should be able to create content, but not everyone should be allowed to see it. It is the filter which is the most important. I have yet to see a decent one.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. Only EULA is something recognizable. Aesthetics of the quests differ. Haven't you heard, beauty lies in the eye of beholder? The failing system would fail in first few days. People will be failing content because "Its too cute, its stupid", "This is too tough", "This doesn't give me loot", "The author is worth ...." etc.
As long as you don't have any guidelines, what can you judge anyways?
Also, as you say, not everyone should be allowed to see it. I want to point out that you are free not to see it. Just play only high rated missions and not the 1 rated missions. If you are playing 1 rated missions, it definitely means you are looking for a surprize or diamond in the rough. Or you are a free thinker who doesn't trust the opinions of others. As simple as that.
I don't really understand what fault are you trying to pick in the foundry system.
All you have to do is actually read the thread to understand the progression of the conversation:
1) crypticmapolis said that the review system would weed out exploit missions
2) I responded that it doesnt, and gave proof
3) sirsitsalot responded that people simply need to report exploit missions
4) I responded that these missions had been reported, but nothing is ever done
5) stormdrag0n responded that STO doesnt have the 5 man review system that NW will
6) I responded that it in fact does
7) iamtruthseeker then responded that the missions I am referring to are not exploits.
8) I responded that an employee of Cryptic/PW said they were.
My original reply to crypticmapolis was not to "pick fault with the foundry", but simply to point out that what he said is not correct. The conversation progressed from there. I completely understand that no system will be perfect, but that does not mean I cannot correct a false statement.
BTW, here are a couple of pics I just took to show people who are not familiar with STO the missions I am talking about. Here are the missions in question:
If you have an issue with STO foundry, pick it up in STO forums. It has nothing to do with NW foundry. Have you seen the video? They state that XP and loot is not controlled by players. If it is an "exploit" as you claim, then at least it should be the route to fastest XP genration by power levelers - but there are limits put in NW foundry, if you watch interviews.
If even after you have reported it as an exploit and they are not ready to take it down, it just means that either the "alleged exploit" is not enough to break the game or that it follows EULA. It may also be both.
If you have an issue with STO foundry, pick it up in STO forums. It has nothing to do with NW foundry.
If both have the same review system, and it doesnt work, then it is related. And you know as well as I that people have been discussing the STO foundry since this forum was created to help people understand how it works. I am hardly the first person to bring it up.
Have you seen the video? They state that XP and loot is not controlled by players.
XP and loot are not controlled by the players in STO's foundry either. You get the standard xp and loot from the NPCs you kill, but the real reward that everyone plays for is the daily mission that requires you to play 3 foundry missions. That daily and its rewards were created by the devs, so they set the rewards for that. However people used the exploit missions I discussed to complete the 3 missions as quickly as possible, rather than playing normal length missions as intended.
Listen, I'm pointing out a problem with the system that hopefully can one day be fixed. Do you honestly want all of the top missions that show up whens someone searches by "hot"(aka most played) to be the kind I linked to in the screenshots above? If no one talks about this nothing will ever happen. There is no reason for you to be offended by me discussing a flaw in the system, unless for some reason you do not want it to be fixed.
If both have the same review system, and it doesnt work, then it is related. And you know as well as I that people have been discussing the STO foundry since this forum was created to help people understand how it works. I am hardly the first person to bring it up.
XP and loot are not controlled by the players in STO's foundry either. You get the standard xp and loot from the NPCs you kill, but the real reward that everyone plays for is the daily mission that requires you to play 3 foundry missions. That daily and its rewards were created by the devs, so they set the rewards for that. However people used the exploit missions I discussed to complete the 3 missions as quickly as possible, rather than playing normal length missions as intended.
Listen, I'm pointing out a problem with the system that hopefully can one day be fixed. If no one talks about this nothing will ever happen. There is no reason for you to be offended by me discussing a flaw in the system.
Ok, as I understand, you are saying that rating system is flawed. Because to get a buff to do three foundry missions, people click those three missions and get the buff.
In my opinion, in this particular case, the fault lies with the buff. I understand that to make foundry popular they may have tried to force players to play UGC. However, if such buff to play foundry missions is introduced in NW, I would oppose it as it would be inherently flawed. I still don't see that mission as an "exploit" or breaking any rules. It is just a mission which ends very soon. If not for it, people playing this one for now will switch to shortest missions none the better than this one.
So in that other game, they should get rid of the buff and let people play missions for their quality and not be forced to play it.
If you ask me there isn't an exploit. There is a bad game design based around the daily. And that yes that is a concern that needs to addressed before NW's release. There needs to be more requirements. Time being one of them.
Ok, as I understand, you are saying that rating system is flawed. Because to get a buff to do three foundry missions, people click those three missions and get the buff.
In my opinion, in this particular case, the fault lies with the buff. I understand that to make foundry popular they may have tried to force players to play UGC. However, if such buff to play foundry missions is introduced in NW, I would oppose it as it would be inherently flawed. I still don't see that mission as an "exploit" or breaking any rules. It is just a mission which ends very soon. If not for it, people playing this one for now will switch to shortest missions none the better than this one.
So in that other game, they should get rid of the buff and let people play missions for their quality and not be forced to play it.
If you ask me there isn't an exploit. There is a bad game design based around the daily. And that yes that is a concern that needs to addressed before NW's release. There needs to be more requirements. Time being one of them.
To be clear, its not a "buff". I understand that term to mean some kind of temporary stat bonus(from my early days in SWG). You get actual rewards from the foundry daily: an amount of XP based upon your level, and then a choice of either a box of in game currency or a piece of gear that scales to your level. So again, actual rewards, not a "buff".
As far as the solution, many have been suggested, but nothing has been done. The one I support is basing mission rewards upon the average mission completion time. Why average? Because this means there is nothing you personally can do to game the system. You cant just waste time and go AFK and get a bigger reward. But if a mission takes 1 hour to play on average, it will give a better reward than a mission that takes 5 mins to complete on average. Initial averages can be based on the first 5 people to review it, then then an auto adjust as more people play it once its live.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2012
Fast mission does not equal exploit. If it broke the rules to the game or to the events then it would be an exploit. And I said sometimes I use it, not go there every day and do so. I play three real missions a lot when I can pay them having the time.
It goes to the casual aspect that I do not always have time for those three missions let alone other dailies on STO yet the dilithium is so vital I can't miss the day's allotment.
Honestly the dil exchange to CP was so horrible I just stopped trying. Even after then getting a couple of hundred thou dil I can't get jack that matters. I should have the option to get something if I work hard compared to the pay fast for CP, and a starship is literally months away still. I can't/couldn't buy it, just making ends meet.
But that discussion is a whole other thing I'll not do here.
Once again, you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Once again, you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference.
And neither do you. Whatever the Devs and company decide, they will enforce. Including if they decide not to enforce something that they do not consider a game mechanic or important enough game mechanic.
If after reporting it multiple times they do not remove it, this allows or tolerates the "fast track" options.
But this is about the Foundry for NWO. (Including a lot of things that will be updated and many will trickle down to STO's foundry in the future.) I'd rather not discuss STO foundry rules here. If you really want to discuss it, do so with me on PM or the STO boards (assuming silver members can post there again...)
"Once again, you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference."
Whatever the Devs and company decide, they will enforce.
The simple truth is, some rules are not enforced. Some are put in place to make a vain attempt at stopping or simply curbing certain types of behavior, although they do not actually take action to enforce them. It appears that while they consider these missions exploits, they do not think it is worth their time to do anything about it.
But this is about the Foundry for NWO.
Yes, it is. So I ask you, do you want these type of exploit missions to be the first results that show up when someone searches by most played in NW? If not, then we need to discuss how to keep that from happening. This was my suggestion in a previous post:
As far as the solution, many have been suggested, but nothing has been done. The one I support is basing mission rewards upon the average mission completion time. Why average? Because this means there is nothing you personally can do to game the system. You cant just waste time and go AFK and get a bigger reward. But if a mission takes 1 hour to play on average, it will give a better reward than a mission that takes 5 mins to complete on average. Initial averages can be based on the first 5 people to review it, then then an auto adjust as more people play it once its live.
This is a thorny issue. In my view we may have to permit some exploits to exist.
The problem I'm having is that I would like the right to create non-combat encounters. This is as much a part of D&D as combat is. Others have expressed this desire. I have in mind quests involving the learning of lore and discovering information. These could be well regarded as simple and perhaps could be completed quickly for someone who didn't care to do any reading or whatever. While I myself envision building some travel and involved work for these quests, I don't think that should be required. I don't want anti-exploit concerns to override legitimate non-combat encounters.
It's not so easy to apply an objective metric for non-exploitation like time spent. It is conceivable that once a person learns the "lore" quests with one character, they could repeat very quickly with another. As far as I can tell, there's nothing to stop that and I'm not sure we should even bother to try.
The STO "panel clicking" triad of quests is obviously an exploit. But a quest could be nearly as easy and still be legit. It could also be created for the purpose of an exploit but meant to look legit. How could you know?
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
"Once again, you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference."
The simple truth is, some rules are not enforced. Some are put in place to make a vain attempt at stopping or simply curbing certain types of behavior, although they do not actually take action to enforce them. It appears that while they consider these missions exploits, they do not think it is worth their time to do anything about it.
Yes, it is. So I ask you, do you want these type of exploit missions to be the first results that show up when someone searches by most played in NW? If not, then we need to discuss how to keep that from happening. This was my suggestion in a previous post:
Do you have any?
AGain, this is for NWO , not STO. I'm not going to even go into the clock time for event respawn vs the average time for a mission versus the window needed to complete for three events to allow you foundry daily rewards. That's STO. While they may have called speed an exploit, they may not now. Or may and not enforce it. Until a clear answer is made, I can't answer a solution. Nor will I go slippery slope or straw man potentially on this. I deal with answers from official sources when I hear the "exploit" word used. One person's exploit is another person's time saver, but sometime's it is outright cheating. That's what listed rules (not a thread post but actual terms of conduct) are and also what is ENFORCED. But this topic is as complex as decriminalization of actual "illegal" activities in the real world, so I'm not going to go forward with this here. Again, if you want to bring up specific STO issues, please consider doing it in a non-Neverwinter forum.
Or, mention what can be done or ask what can be done on the foundry without bringing up specific active issues on another game that may be inflammatory (and save that for that game's forum or PM.)
But I'm a user, not an employee. If a employee says it's cool to talk about it here, then I too will back down on this.
Again, it's what is supported, allowed, and enforced here.
In other words, you have no suggestions on how to prevent this same situation from taking place in NW. Or, do you want these kind of exploit missions to be the first that show up when you search by most played in NW? Perhaps that is your motivation?
This is a thorny issue. In my view we may have to permit some exploits to exist.
The problem I'm having is that I would like the right to create non-combat encounters. This is as much a part of D&D as combat is. Others have expressed this desire. I have in mind quests involving the learning of lore and discovering information. These could be well regarded as simple and perhaps could be completed quickly for someone who didn't care to do any reading or whatever. While I myself envision building some travel and involved work for these quests, I don't think that should be required. I don't want anti-exploit concerns to override legitimate non-combat encounters.
It's not so easy to apply an objective metric for non-exploitation like time spent. It is conceivable that once a person learns the "lore" quests with one character, they could repeat very quickly with another. As far as I can tell, there's nothing to stop that and I'm not sure we should even bother to try.
The STO "panel clicking" triad of quests is obviously an exploit. But a quest could be nearly as easy and still be legit. It could also be created for the purpose of an exploit but meant to look legit. How could you know?
One could however, assume that other skill based tasks could be implemented (assuming we can ever get any info on skills). Even if some of those are based specifically on dialogue. Having enough tasks could work in the same manner as making sure there are enough creatures to slay in order to make sure a mission lasts long enough. I see no reason why a mission on lore or fact finding wouldn't have non combat based skill tasks. The question though is if they at their most basic form can be made as engaging (time wise) as a very simple combat instance.
In other words, you have no suggestions on how to prevent this same situation from taking place in NW. Or, do you want these kind of exploit missions to be the first that show up when you search by most played in NW? Perhaps that is your motivation?
How can you count your chickens before they hatch? NW foundry unlike STO foundry, has a better model. You can log in and start to create missions unlike STO which is not a true f2p unlike NW. That is why the issue you are bringing up here is not relevant at all to the forums here. You should raise this issue in STO forums.
There has been no confirmation or demonstration what-so-ever that doing foundry missions will be rewarded with any buff/loot etc.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
In other words, you have no suggestions on how to prevent this same situation from taking place in NW. Or, do you want these kind of exploit missions to be the first that show up when you search by most played in NW? Perhaps that is your motivation?
This is a totally uncalled for accusation. Not cool man, not cool.
How can you count your chickens before they hatch?
According to what Mapolis has told us, NW's foundry uses the same review system that STO's does. Therefore, the problems that exist with STO's review system are likely to be problems with NW's.
Just so we're clear though, I hope I'm wrong. I hope they have figured out some way to actually deal with this problem before NW launches. In which case, all of this discussion will be for naught. But just in case they havent, discussing ideas of how to prevent those kinds of problems will hopefully help them.
NW foundry unlike STO foundry, has a better model. You can log in and start to create missions unlike STO which is not a true f2p unlike NW. That is why the issue you are bringing up here is not relevant at all to the forums here.
If you think the issue I'm discussing is related to the business model, then you do not actually understand what I am discussing. The business model has nothing to do with the issue of how the foundry's review system works.
One could however, assume that other skill based tasks could be implemented (assuming we can ever get any info on skills). Even if some of those are based specifically on dialogue. Having enough tasks could work in the same manner as making sure there are enough creatures to slay in order to make sure a mission lasts long enough. I see no reason why a mission on lore or fact finding wouldn't have non combat based skill tasks. The question though is if they at their most basic form can be made as engaging (time wise) as a very simple combat instance.
I'm not sure that's true. Suppose you get a quest from a Well-Informed Bar Maid. You run out of the inn and up the street to the temple. "Spacebar" your way though a lot of dialogue with an archivist, go down steps to the library, click on book in bookshelf, spacebar through a few pages, go back to the temple archivist and spacebar again through more dialogue. Complete quest. Perhaps this could be done in less then a minute. However it might be some of the best knowledge discovery you've ever heard. It may give new meaning to lot of your experience in Faerun.
Now consider an exploiter. He throws together a quick quest as described above and it's really lame. However we all know that some people create some lame stuff (I'm embarrassed about some of the lame stuff I made up when I first got into rpgs), but not really an exploit.
I don't think I want people in charge of subjective decisions involving created content. Objective based metrics however are not easy wield as I showed in the example.
Maybe the best solution is to say that quests that fall below an XP threshold could not be used to satisfy daily quests (or something like that).
The foundry is a feature that all dungeon masters want to get their hands in.. if there are controls placed on the foundry to make the complainers happy, honestly, that would probably take the fun out of the foundry, and the entire game is less appealing.. If it isnt an environment where you are free to create as you wish, that isnt dungeons and dragons. That is a game breaker. as for what qualifiies as something that would satisfy the requirements of a daily, without causing a general riot, my best suggestion is that none of them qualify for a daily. end of problem.
Comments
There is no need to be sorry, because you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference.
But dont worry, these exploit missions obviously arent going anywhere if they havent been removed by now. Despite telling people to report them, they obviously dont care. My point is simply that the review system does not weed out exploit missions due to people such as yourself who endorse and use them, then go around claiming they arent exploits.
So what's the reward ? How much time from beginning of quest to get into that "spot" does it yake. From your description you arent clear who is exploiting. If YOU know here that spot is, and you keep doing the quest - YOU could be the one that's exploiting, via your own description. Aka is it meant to be run as an entire quest or was an exploit "found" that was unintentional? It could be a game mechanics code fubar that tthe author had no idea about.
Lastly YOU say its an exploit, yet 5 separate entities who dont know each other disagree with you. Strange.
PS: Calling someone out as a cheater is completely uncalled for and is against this forum's code of conduct.
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XP and a choice between a box of in game currency which can be traded for game store currency or a box of gear that scales to your level.
If you havent played STO this is going to sound foreign to you, but the mission takes place on Earth Space Dock, which is the main social hub of Starfleet. When you first load into the zone there is a computer panel on the wall, and the mission is to click on that panel. There are 3 missions to do the exact same thing, so clicking on it once completes all 3 in about 1 second.
It is stated in the mission description what you have to do, which is how people know where to go and what panel to click on. The mission works exactly as it is intended to work; it isnt bugged. It was just intended to speed through the daily mission. Both the person who made it and the people who play it understand exactly what it is.
Agreed, uncalled for.
If the reviewer pool is going to be as healthy as it's thought to be I would think upping the number of passes needed to get through the gate would be wise. Also you might consider adding a time factor to the quests in the review pool, i.e. A quest needs to be in the pool for at least a month before it is capable of being shuttled through, it would still be capable of accepting passes or fails though.
How many fails does a quest need before it is yanked from the review pool? Perhaps quests that have been failed during the review process need to be highlighted so that others can more easily look at them and decide for themselves if they should be failed or not.
I could give you a million reasons for why I fail content, but you only need one...
We aren't talking about a game here. We are talking about infinite content creation.
I did not call anyone a "cheater". I did point out that certain missions in STO were exploits, and that a Cryptic/PW employee told us to report those kinds of missions. iamtruthseeker then freely admited he did those kinds of missions. If he wants to admit to doing exploits, so be it. If you think that makes he a cheater, so be it. But I did not call him that.
However, if saying someone is exploiting is the same thing as calling them a cheater, then by your own definition you just broke the forum rules yourself in the first sentence quoted above.
If you want a perfect system, sorry to tell you but no perfect thing exists in this world. Any other system , like one you suggest - I will fail it - pick me up for review - is very unlikeable as much as it is unworkable. The foundry rating system works - thats what it matters. Just like democracy is not perfect but it works. Just like most beautiful things in this world are not perfect but they work. Thats all there is to it.
Its a very simple thing when you look at it.
That isn't directed at anyone in particular btw.
+1.
Ratings will itself decide everything. Creativity should not be strangled or controlled but allowed to grow and prosper. (As long as it doesn't violate EULA
It might be simple yes, but not as simple as it could be. The simplest method would be me stating "I do not like this quest" and then clicking the fail button. If this EULA you mention is anything like other EULA of past years then I expect it to be full of unrecognizable and infinitely interpretable legalese.
We are speaking to the aesthetics of the quest selection system as seen by the player. Is it better for the player to see many similar quests with a few exploits scattered about, or a smaller selection of deeper and more entertaining quests which have been thoroughly vetted.
Yes, everyone can and should be able to create content, but not everyone should be allowed to see it. It is the filter which is the most important. I have yet to see a decent one.
That is exactly what I am trying to say. Only EULA is something recognizable. Aesthetics of the quests differ. Haven't you heard, beauty lies in the eye of beholder? The failing system would fail in first few days. People will be failing content because "Its too cute, its stupid", "This is too tough", "This doesn't give me loot", "The author is worth ...." etc.
As long as you don't have any guidelines, what can you judge anyways?
Also, as you say, not everyone should be allowed to see it. I want to point out that you are free not to see it. Just play only high rated missions and not the 1 rated missions. If you are playing 1 rated missions, it definitely means you are looking for a surprize or diamond in the rough. Or you are a free thinker who doesn't trust the opinions of others. As simple as that.
All you have to do is actually read the thread to understand the progression of the conversation:
1) crypticmapolis said that the review system would weed out exploit missions
2) I responded that it doesnt, and gave proof
3) sirsitsalot responded that people simply need to report exploit missions
4) I responded that these missions had been reported, but nothing is ever done
5) stormdrag0n responded that STO doesnt have the 5 man review system that NW will
6) I responded that it in fact does
7) iamtruthseeker then responded that the missions I am referring to are not exploits.
8) I responded that an employee of Cryptic/PW said they were.
My original reply to crypticmapolis was not to "pick fault with the foundry", but simply to point out that what he said is not correct. The conversation progressed from there. I completely understand that no system will be perfect, but that does not mean I cannot correct a false statement.
BTW, here are a couple of pics I just took to show people who are not familiar with STO the missions I am talking about. Here are the missions in question:
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o553/sl1ckm1ster/067509f3.jpg
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o553/sl1ckm1ster/66f09003.jpg
And this is the panel you click on the wall to complete all 3 missions:
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o553/sl1ckm1ster/fa249f3c.jpg
Since you can accept all 3 missions at once, you only have to click the panel 1 time.
If you have an issue with STO foundry, pick it up in STO forums. It has nothing to do with NW foundry. Have you seen the video? They state that XP and loot is not controlled by players. If it is an "exploit" as you claim, then at least it should be the route to fastest XP genration by power levelers - but there are limits put in NW foundry, if you watch interviews.
If even after you have reported it as an exploit and they are not ready to take it down, it just means that either the "alleged exploit" is not enough to break the game or that it follows EULA. It may also be both.
If both have the same review system, and it doesnt work, then it is related. And you know as well as I that people have been discussing the STO foundry since this forum was created to help people understand how it works. I am hardly the first person to bring it up.
XP and loot are not controlled by the players in STO's foundry either. You get the standard xp and loot from the NPCs you kill, but the real reward that everyone plays for is the daily mission that requires you to play 3 foundry missions. That daily and its rewards were created by the devs, so they set the rewards for that. However people used the exploit missions I discussed to complete the 3 missions as quickly as possible, rather than playing normal length missions as intended.
Listen, I'm pointing out a problem with the system that hopefully can one day be fixed. Do you honestly want all of the top missions that show up whens someone searches by "hot"(aka most played) to be the kind I linked to in the screenshots above? If no one talks about this nothing will ever happen. There is no reason for you to be offended by me discussing a flaw in the system, unless for some reason you do not want it to be fixed.
Ok, as I understand, you are saying that rating system is flawed. Because to get a buff to do three foundry missions, people click those three missions and get the buff.
In my opinion, in this particular case, the fault lies with the buff. I understand that to make foundry popular they may have tried to force players to play UGC. However, if such buff to play foundry missions is introduced in NW, I would oppose it as it would be inherently flawed. I still don't see that mission as an "exploit" or breaking any rules. It is just a mission which ends very soon. If not for it, people playing this one for now will switch to shortest missions none the better than this one.
So in that other game, they should get rid of the buff and let people play missions for their quality and not be forced to play it.
To be clear, its not a "buff". I understand that term to mean some kind of temporary stat bonus(from my early days in SWG). You get actual rewards from the foundry daily: an amount of XP based upon your level, and then a choice of either a box of in game currency or a piece of gear that scales to your level. So again, actual rewards, not a "buff".
As far as the solution, many have been suggested, but nothing has been done. The one I support is basing mission rewards upon the average mission completion time. Why average? Because this means there is nothing you personally can do to game the system. You cant just waste time and go AFK and get a bigger reward. But if a mission takes 1 hour to play on average, it will give a better reward than a mission that takes 5 mins to complete on average. Initial averages can be based on the first 5 people to review it, then then an auto adjust as more people play it once its live.
It goes to the casual aspect that I do not always have time for those three missions let alone other dailies on STO yet the dilithium is so vital I can't miss the day's allotment.
Honestly the dil exchange to CP was so horrible I just stopped trying. Even after then getting a couple of hundred thou dil I can't get jack that matters. I should have the option to get something if I work hard compared to the pay fast for CP, and a starship is literally months away still. I can't/couldn't buy it, just making ends meet.
But that discussion is a whole other thing I'll not do here.
Once again, you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference.
And neither do you. Whatever the Devs and company decide, they will enforce. Including if they decide not to enforce something that they do not consider a game mechanic or important enough game mechanic.
If after reporting it multiple times they do not remove it, this allows or tolerates the "fast track" options.
But this is about the Foundry for NWO. (Including a lot of things that will be updated and many will trickle down to STO's foundry in the future.) I'd rather not discuss STO foundry rules here. If you really want to discuss it, do so with me on PM or the STO boards (assuming silver members can post there again...)
Exactly like I said:
"Once again, you do not get to decide what is an exploit. For that matter, neither do I. The reason I called these missions exploits is because Stormshade specifically told people to report missions that were designed solely to speed through any game mechanic. And the point of the 1 click missions is obviously to speed through the foundry daily. Therefore by the devs definition, it is an exploit. Whether you agree makes absolutely no difference."
The simple truth is, some rules are not enforced. Some are put in place to make a vain attempt at stopping or simply curbing certain types of behavior, although they do not actually take action to enforce them. It appears that while they consider these missions exploits, they do not think it is worth their time to do anything about it.
Yes, it is. So I ask you, do you want these type of exploit missions to be the first results that show up when someone searches by most played in NW? If not, then we need to discuss how to keep that from happening. This was my suggestion in a previous post:
Do you have any?
The problem I'm having is that I would like the right to create non-combat encounters. This is as much a part of D&D as combat is. Others have expressed this desire. I have in mind quests involving the learning of lore and discovering information. These could be well regarded as simple and perhaps could be completed quickly for someone who didn't care to do any reading or whatever. While I myself envision building some travel and involved work for these quests, I don't think that should be required. I don't want anti-exploit concerns to override legitimate non-combat encounters.
It's not so easy to apply an objective metric for non-exploitation like time spent. It is conceivable that once a person learns the "lore" quests with one character, they could repeat very quickly with another. As far as I can tell, there's nothing to stop that and I'm not sure we should even bother to try.
The STO "panel clicking" triad of quests is obviously an exploit. But a quest could be nearly as easy and still be legit. It could also be created for the purpose of an exploit but meant to look legit. How could you know?
AGain, this is for NWO , not STO. I'm not going to even go into the clock time for event respawn vs the average time for a mission versus the window needed to complete for three events to allow you foundry daily rewards. That's STO. While they may have called speed an exploit, they may not now. Or may and not enforce it. Until a clear answer is made, I can't answer a solution. Nor will I go slippery slope or straw man potentially on this. I deal with answers from official sources when I hear the "exploit" word used. One person's exploit is another person's time saver, but sometime's it is outright cheating. That's what listed rules (not a thread post but actual terms of conduct) are and also what is ENFORCED. But this topic is as complex as decriminalization of actual "illegal" activities in the real world, so I'm not going to go forward with this here. Again, if you want to bring up specific STO issues, please consider doing it in a non-Neverwinter forum.
Or, mention what can be done or ask what can be done on the foundry without bringing up specific active issues on another game that may be inflammatory (and save that for that game's forum or PM.)
But I'm a user, not an employee. If a employee says it's cool to talk about it here, then I too will back down on this.
Again, it's what is supported, allowed, and enforced here.
In other words, you have no suggestions on how to prevent this same situation from taking place in NW. Or, do you want these kind of exploit missions to be the first that show up when you search by most played in NW? Perhaps that is your motivation?
One could however, assume that other skill based tasks could be implemented (assuming we can ever get any info on skills). Even if some of those are based specifically on dialogue. Having enough tasks could work in the same manner as making sure there are enough creatures to slay in order to make sure a mission lasts long enough. I see no reason why a mission on lore or fact finding wouldn't have non combat based skill tasks. The question though is if they at their most basic form can be made as engaging (time wise) as a very simple combat instance.
How can you count your chickens before they hatch? NW foundry unlike STO foundry, has a better model. You can log in and start to create missions unlike STO which is not a true f2p unlike NW. That is why the issue you are bringing up here is not relevant at all to the forums here. You should raise this issue in STO forums.
There has been no confirmation or demonstration what-so-ever that doing foundry missions will be rewarded with any buff/loot etc.
This is a totally uncalled for accusation. Not cool man, not cool.
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According to what Mapolis has told us, NW's foundry uses the same review system that STO's does. Therefore, the problems that exist with STO's review system are likely to be problems with NW's.
Just so we're clear though, I hope I'm wrong. I hope they have figured out some way to actually deal with this problem before NW launches. In which case, all of this discussion will be for naught. But just in case they havent, discussing ideas of how to prevent those kinds of problems will hopefully help them.
If you think the issue I'm discussing is related to the business model, then you do not actually understand what I am discussing. The business model has nothing to do with the issue of how the foundry's review system works.
I'm not sure that's true. Suppose you get a quest from a Well-Informed Bar Maid. You run out of the inn and up the street to the temple. "Spacebar" your way though a lot of dialogue with an archivist, go down steps to the library, click on book in bookshelf, spacebar through a few pages, go back to the temple archivist and spacebar again through more dialogue. Complete quest. Perhaps this could be done in less then a minute. However it might be some of the best knowledge discovery you've ever heard. It may give new meaning to lot of your experience in Faerun.
Now consider an exploiter. He throws together a quick quest as described above and it's really lame. However we all know that some people create some lame stuff (I'm embarrassed about some of the lame stuff I made up when I first got into rpgs), but not really an exploit.
I don't think I want people in charge of subjective decisions involving created content. Objective based metrics however are not easy wield as I showed in the example.
Maybe the best solution is to say that quests that fall below an XP threshold could not be used to satisfy daily quests (or something like that).
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