Unfortunately, charging for content is the only guarantee they will actually keep making new content on a regular basis...because if they dont they wont make any money.
This is so wrong that it invalidates anything else you will be saying on this issue. Sorry.
@sirsitsalot Well good news is they are not forcing you to pay either. You are free to pay.
Also, they will put resources into making the game popular and better so their merchandise can sell. As they have already inferred, like comic books spend their resources to build new stories so that their toys (sorry... figurines) can sell well.
EDIT: OMG! Community is really becoming active. 5 new posts above me while I was typing... Had to tag the name because of that.
This is so wrong that it invalidates anything else you will be saying on this issue. Sorry.
Anyone can claim something is wrong without having to provide any evidence to the contrary. But I'm completely willing to be convinced otherwise. All you have to do is give me an example of a F2P game that releases new mission content on a truly regular basis that doesnt charge for content packs. Cryptic's other 2 games certainly do not fit that description, as they get new mission content very rarely.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Unfortunately, charging for content is the only guarantee they will actually keep making new content on a regular basis...because if they dont they wont make any money. But when they give away all of the content for free and only charge for "fluff", then 99% of their development effort is only on making new "fluff", meaning the game doesnt get any new content for a long time.
Of course, if the foundry is all its cracked up to be, that may not be as much of an issue here. But in general, what I said is true. The only F2P titles that actually release content on a regular basis also charge for content packs. STO and Champs release new content very sporadically at best, and most of their effort is on C-store items. And no, STO's foundry hasnt been enough to keep that game from feeling like it has a content drought.
Anyone can claim something is wrong without having to provide any evidence to the contrary. But I'm completely willing to be convinced otherwise. All you have to do is give me an example of a F2P game that releases new mission content on a truly regular basis that doesnt charge for content packs. Cryptic's other 2 games certainly do not fit that description, as they get new mission content very rarely.
I'd like to point out that not every developer works on the same thing. So your argument of, "then 99% of their development effort is only on making new "fluff", meaning the game doesnt get any new content for a long time," is quite invalid and a common misconception for those who have never been in the MMO Gaming Industry.
Furthermore, "fluff" is quite a viable Cash Shop source of revenue. Just from my own personal experience, almost everything I buy in games with cash shops are "fluff" items. STO has been the one exception, where I will buy Starships. The rest however, in the STO C-Store is purely fluff and sells like crazy. STO has yet to charge for their Featured Episodes (content) and are doing quite well. Additionally, Forsaken World has yet to charge for content and the majority of their cash shop are fluff and convenience items.
Unfortunately, charging for content is the only guarantee they will actually keep making new content on a regular basis...
Have you ever played any PWE game? Or any f2p game in general?
Look at FW: All content is 100% free, and they even let you buy any premium items you want with in-game gold, so you don't have to spend money even on the fluff. Yet the game gets content updates every couple of months.
I'd like to point out that not every developer works on the same thing. So your argument of, "then 99% of their development effort is only on making new "fluff", meaning the game doesnt get any new content for a long time," is quite invalid and a common misconception for those who have never been in the MMO Gaming Industry.
You are completely right. But if a game's main focus is on cash shop items, they wont have very many people on the team who make new mission content, meaning it will take longer to make. So while the "99%" comment was simply a figure of speech, the meaning is the same.
Furthermore, "fluff" is quite a viable Cash Shop source of revenue. Just from my own personal experience, almost everything I buy in games with cash shops are "fluff" items. STO has been the one exception, where I will buy Starships. The rest however, in the STO C-Store is purely fluff and sells like crazy. STO has yet to charge for their Featured Episodes (content) and are doing quite well.[/COLOR]
And as a STO player, please let everyone know how often STO receives new mission content.
Have you ever played any PWE game? Or any f2p game in general?
I certainly have. I've played both of Cryptic's other games, and they hardly ever receive new mission content. I've also played games like DCUO and LOTRO which release new mission content on a regular basis, and charge for it.
@sl1ckm1ster Hey!
People are not explaining this a lot because this has been discussed a lot in earlier posts. Please guys don't bash him
But you should look at Gamecom, germany video of neverwinter. It exlains these concerns quite in detail. Other reason people here are assuming that either you haven't been following neverwinter interviews a lot or you are intentionally trolling.
OK. Two pages created in a minute but now the system has stabilized
@sl1ckm1ster Hey!
People are not explaining this a lot because this has been discussed a lot in earlier posts. Please guys don't bash him
But you should look at Gamecom, germany video of neverwinter. It exlains these concerns quite in detail. Other reason people here are assuming that either you haven't been following neverwinter interviews a lot or you are intentionally trolling.
I'm not really concerned about what they say they'll do, but rather what they actually do. Unfortunately the 2 are quite often not the same, so I'm simply talking about what I have seen in my own personal experience.
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You are completely right. But if a game's main focus is on cash shop items, they wont have very many people on the team who make new mission content, meaning it will take longer to make, meaning the end result is the same.
First of all, if the game gets no content updates, then it gets boring. If game gets boring, people start leaving. If people leave, noone buys cashshop items anymore.
This is is chapter 1 of lesson 1 of F2P 101. Are you implying that any publisher that has survived for a few years in the f2p industry are such immense idiots that they're going to forget that? I think not.
Also... come on, how much time are a few costumes and cashshop rearrangements each month gonna take out of their workload? It's just modeling a dozen pieces of clothing, maybe a couple pets, and tweaking a few values on the cashshop client, they could just let a single member of their team do it alone and he'd still have time to stop for tea and cookies... So, 5% of the team's potential? Lets just say 10% if they're going all-out with costumes and pets... what the hell are they gonna do during that 90% that remains? Picking their noses or playing FarmVille?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
You are completely right. But if a game's main focus is on cash shop items, they wont have very many people on the team who make new mission content, meaning it will take longer to make, meaning the end result is the same.
I'm not sure I can respond to this any other way than I said initially. Seems like you're just rewording your argument, as it still remains the same and my response would be the same.
I certainly have. I've played both of Cryptic's other games, and they hardly ever receive new mission content. I've also played games like DCUO and LOTRO which release new mission content on a regular basis, and charge for it.
Both CO and STO have been releasing content regularly. Mayhaps not as frequent as one may like, but still they both have been releasing content as needed. In fact, CO has had two releases since it went F2P.
I agree, that is true. You said you played STO, right? Can you please tell everyone how often STO gets new mission content?
I said I played FW. Which is a proper f2p game, instead of the p2p gone f2p that STO is. And which gets major content updates every 3-4 months and a few extra minor content updates in between.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I'm not really concerned about what they say they'll do, but rather what they actually do. Unfortunately the 2 are quite often not the same, so I'm simply talking about what I have seen in my own personal experience.
I suggest you look into the changes cryptic has brought in its two games after being absorbed by PWE. It seems to me you left cryptic years ago disgruntled and have not been following the cryptic games. I suggest looking into Dilithium or some other rare metal involved in alternate universes....
@Zebular:- Yeah I understand. Just below your answer is the same question But let us be more patient and give benefit of doubt that you were a ninja in posting it and he did not see as fast as you appeared.
here. Do note that the recently released Seasons 5 and 6 aren't listed there.
That page lists a total of 20 missions over a 1.5 years(from Aug 28, 2010 to March 10, 2011). Do you honestly think that is a regular basis?
Both CO and STO have been releasing content regularly. Mayhaps not as frequent as one may like, but still they both have been releasing content as needed. In fact, CO has had two releases since it went F2P.
Just so we're clear, I'm talking about mission content, not simply "updates". Some updates are mainly mechanical/systems based and do not include much new playable content.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
That page lists a total of 20 missions over a 1.5 years(from Aug 28 2010 to March 10 2011). Do you think that is a regular basis?
Just so we're clear, I'm talking about mission content, not simply "updates". Some updates are mainly mechanical/systems based and do not include much new playable content.
Very well, let's just decide that our opinions of "regular content" vary then. However, there hasn't been one STO Season Update that hasn't brought in new playable content.
I suggest you look into the changes cryptic has brought in its two games after being absorbed by PWE.
Cryptic was purchased by PW in May of 2011. Since that time period STO has released 1 FE series(5 missions) and 3 game updates that were largely system based and included very little mission content.
Unfortunately, charging for content is the only guarantee they will actually keep making new content on a regular basis...because if they dont they wont make any money. But when they give away all of the content for free and only charge for "fluff", then 99% of their development effort is only on making new "fluff", meaning the game doesnt get any new content for a long time.
Of course, if the foundry is all its cracked up to be, that may not be as much of an issue here. But in general, what I said is true. The only F2P titles that actually release content on a regular basis also charge for content packs. STO and Champs release new content very sporadically at best, and most of their effort is on C-store items. And no, STO's foundry hasnt been enough to keep that game from feeling like it has a content drought.
This is exactly what I am talking about.
The irony is that when officially created content doesn't come out as fast as c-store fluff, people complain, but if you dare suggest that content packs be charged for so that making them would become profitable and so would encourage making more of them, those same people scream that if they do that, they are gone!
Which is it? Do you want content delivered regularly, or do you want to go month after month with only fluff in the c-store added that you have no interest in?
And for those who would be foundry authirs who would say, the moment I have to pay for resource kits, I'm gone! it is the same thing. If the only thing that is making them money is fluff items in the C-store, what motivation will they have to release free resource kit additions to you? They are even talking about giving foundry authors free slots if their modules get rated high enough. That's cool, I'll give them that. But slots are monetized anyway, so for those who don't measure up, there's still the option to buy slots.
But are new art assets worth the development resources if it will return no profit for them?
And PROFIT is the name of the game for these people.
But then, with Foundry providing potentially endless content, they don't need to keep content developers on staff. If no official playable content is going to be developed, you don't need artists to design new art for it. So I guess they won't need to charge for content patches or resource kits. Because there won't be new forthcominc content to warrant either.
We can expect to see Neverwinter stagnate in terms of everything but fluff on the C-store. and what we see at launch will likely be all we get for a long while. I hope they have a MASSIVE selection of character costumes to choose from. Or a massive selection of multi-colored pets, some with and without sparkles all sold separately, and a massive number of visibly different mounts all sold separately, and uniquely scaled for all different races, sold separately... And I hope they have a massive number of new races that are merely varriations on familiar races but with different hair options and skin colors, that actually have no real basis in D&D lore, but the mysterious portal found in a the deep woods by lumberjacks who cut a trail in accidentally activated so now this world is being visited by being from countless other worlds. This will be their introduction to the creature editor that STO has but won't really fit within D&D's setting because of limited races.
Believe me. In a game where fluff items are the central focus of what makes them money, they will do all sorts of things with it. Unless they do break their word and introduce more than cosmetic items to the C-store.
Content creation options will be the last thing on their list. And because Foundry will be meant to carry the game beyond the official starter playable content, there will likely BE no official playable content added.
Go read the STO forums. Look how hard it is for them to get playable content into player hands. Oh but C-store fluff is easy. So if all they end up releasing for NW is C-store fluff, then aside from foundry slots, they will get no money from me. I only buy what I perceive that I need. What I need from a game is playable content. And if I am creating foundry missions, I will need slots. I won't need fluff so I will have no other reason to buy it except that it might look cool.
I predict that after the game launches, when a few months go by and there are no new elements added to the Foundry and no new modules added onto the official adventure campaign, these forums will be innundated with posts begging for it. Some will say "I have bought every suit of armor you've put on the C-store! How much do I have to spend before we get even one new mission or new assets for making missions?" If this does not happen, I will happily admit to being wrong.
However, I have predicted almost every negative turn that has happened to several MMO in the last few years. I've been right 95% of the time, and the 5% of the time that I was wrong was because what I predicted occurred sooner because I gave some suit too much credit.
Time will tell.
There's still a lot we don't know.
Things may balance out.
We shall see.
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills...
...Blood and ashes!
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Very well, let's just decide that our opinions of "regular content" vary then. However, there hasn't been one STO Season Update that hasn't brought in new playable content.
I'm not claiming that STO's seasons have no new playable content; just not very much. The last season added about a dozen missions that you can que to play. My point is simply that a dozen missions is far less than the amount of content added to games that actually sell content packs.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Cryptic was purchased by PW in May of 2011. Since that time period STO has released 1 FE series(5 missions) and 3 game updates that were largely system based and included very little mission content.
New missions
Duty officer system
Special Task Force ?Infected?, ?The Cure?, ?Khitomer Accord? revamp
An event system was added:
Borg Invasion of Defera
Mirror Universe Incursion
Starfleet Academy Event / Klingon Academy Event
Tour the Universe
Crystalline Entity
and with bonuses for crafting, lore, collecting data samples and Asteroid Mining.
Vault Shuttle Event (April 19, 2012)
Featured Episode Series: "The 2800":
?Second Wave? (February 11, 2012)
?Of Bajor? (February 18)
?Operation Gamma? (February 25)
?Facility 4028? (March 3)
?Boldly They Rode? (March 11)
New Klingon story mission: ?Alpha? (April 5, 2012)
First Contact Day (April 5-9, 2012)
Introduction of recurring Friday 13th event: ?Hearts and Minds? (April 12-14, 2012)
Missions and Events
New currency, fleet marks, can be earned from the following missions:
?No Win Scenario?
?Colony Invasion?
?Starbase Blockade?
?Starbase Incursion?
?Starbase Fleet Defense?
?Fleet Alert?
Tholian Incursion on Nukara Prime (fleet marks only rewarded during event)
During the new two-hours Fleet Marks Event all these missions reward bonus fleet marks.
The irony is that when officially created content doesn't come out as fast as c-store fluff, people complain, but if you dare suggest that content packs be charged for so that making them would become profitable and so would encourage making more of them, those same people scream that if they do that, they are gone!
Which is it? Do you want content delivered regularly, or do you want to go month after month with only fluff in the c-store added that you have no interest in?
The complaints do not matter if the complainers still wind up spending money in the end. Many people will kick and scream and throw a big tantrum only to turn around and actually buy what they are complaining about. So the question isnt whether people will complain or not(because people will always complain), it is simply whether it will make money or not.
There actually isn't any point. Can't you see where discussion is going? In the end it will be, "It is not free. You have to give electricity bills and internet charges for download."
A discussion about f2p should start with a reference point which has not been provided. So the reference is ever-shifting mirage.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
There actually isn't any point. Can't you see where discussion is going? In the end it will be, "It is not free. You have to give electricity bills and internet charges for download."
A discussion about f2p should start with a reference point which has not been provided. So the reference is ever-shifting mirage.
*the mage chuckles*
Tis time for me to planeswalk over to the Star Trek Universe anyhow. I just bought the new TNG Season 1 uniforms. I love uniforms.
The complaints do not matter if the complainers still wind up spending money in the end. Many people will kick and scream and throw a big tantrum only to turn around and actually buy what they are complaining about. So the question isnt whether people will complain or not(because people will always complain), it is simply whether it will make money or not.
Yep... And if nobody buys it, it won't make money. But nobody will buy if if it isn't sold.
Allow me to illustrate this with an example from STO, namely the still unfinished after more that two and a half years Klingon Defense Force faction (KDF):
KDF players complain about not enough content
Cryptic tells them that the budget for development is based on what the majority of players actually play, and that not enough people are playing KDF content.
KDF players counter that there is hardly any KDF content to play.
Cryptic suggests that if more people played the KDF content it might increase the priority of development.
KDF players not only do that, but they also buy every bit of the few KDF-only items on the C-store.
Cryptic proceeds to not only shelve the completion of KDF content, but they increase the Federation character level needed to gain access to the little KDF content that does exist to Level 25, thus encouraging people to not even be interested. It wouldn't surprise me if a significant number of newcomers to STO after the FTP conversion don't even know that they CAN EVEN PLAY as a Klingon...
Cryptic blames the low priority on KDF content on the lack of player interest, in spite of the fact that lack of player interest is directly due to their low priority on KDF content.
there may be different development teams working on STO and NW, but the suits who prioritize what gets worked on and how often are the same.
And as for all the cool things Jack Emmert sat there and spouted about NW in those two videos? I heard him. But i don't put any stock in what he had to say.
Why not?
Because I cannot help but think back to another video where Jack after being introduced by none other than the legendary Leonard Nimoy, looked into our collective eyes and went on and on about what Star Trek Online was going to be...
Now if you have ever played STO, tell me how much of that is what was delivered?
Same people in high places as far as I am concerned, so I have no reason to expect much different. We'll know early next year when the game comes out. But i won't hold my breath.
Someone said to me earlier on that I won't HAVE to pay anything. That's right. I don't have to. But Cryptic would like me to. But what they are selling I don't want. And what I want, they won't sell. And because they won't sell it, it won't make them any money. And because it want make them any money, they won't budget the development resources on it. And because they won't budget the resources to develop it, the forums will be filled with posts begging for it. But in spite of that eventuality, they still won't step up development of anything but C-store fluff. People will leave. But it won't bother Cryptic because they weren't paying anyway. Those who will remain and will pay for nothing but fluff will still sustain the game. But still, playable content will remain a low priority. Heck if left only with the Fluff-junkies, playable content will be NO priority, because as long as the fluff junkies have fluff to buy, they'll be satisfied.
Those of us wanting a game with real meat to it will be playing something else.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Season 5's development started before the sale of Cryptic Studios to PWE. It's development was suspended pending the FTP relaunch. It took several months after for it to be completed. Almost a full year with no content released.
It should be noted that Season 6 is mostly about starbases. And just to be clear, Starbases are mostly about a massive grind that can only be lessened if you spend real money... No. We did not have to pay for it. But if we want to get anywhere in it without having a lot of time to devote to it, we have to purchase Refined Dilithium on the dilithium exchange for Zen, which you have to spend real money to get...
And in that two-part video she mentioned being able to trade Zen for an in-game currency on an exchange. So pardon me if I don't fall out of my chair in shock when the same things happen in NW. Gameplay content that seems very cool and awesome that you can freely participate in, but will take forever to grind your way through it unless you have the Neverwinter equivilant of Refined Dilithium, which you will have to spend Zen to get, which you'll have to spend real money on to get...
And let us not forget PWE-Cryptic's other favorite moneymaker:
Lockboxes. Or shall I say, "Lottery Boxes". In STO, these drop from anything you can fight. But you cannot open them unless you have a key. And you can only get a key on the C-store. And what do you get when you open the box? You get a chance to get the grand prize item, which is usually a limited edition ship that you cannot buy directly off the C-store for any money. There are people who have poured hundreds of dollars into buying keys and have yet to get one. For the record, Lockboxes did not show up in STO until after PWE bought Cryptic.
I'm sure I'll have loads of fun with NW, playing what is freely available. And I do intend to play it. I just don't see it offering me anything that I would want to spend money on.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited August 2012
So, this has now turned from a foundry discussion to a content discussion and now to a bashing of the Cash Shop. I shall digress from this topic as it is no longer a proper discussion but instead a fling fest of our opinions of other aspects of other games.
So, this has now turned from a foundry discussion to a content discussion and now to a bashing of the Cash Shop. I shall digress from this topic as it is no longer a proper discussion but instead a fling fest of our opinions of other aspects of other games.
But you were all to happy to discuss other aspects of the game when you thought you were "winning the argument". Its only after you have your posts refuted that you decide the discussion is off topic? Ok.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
But you were all to happy to discuss other aspects of the game when you thought you were "winning the argument"? Its only after you have your posts refuted that you decide the discussion is off topic? Ok.
You mean, another aspect. Not aspects. I indulged in the content discussion but now with the interjection and subject change to the cash shop and morality of game companies, I see the posts for what they are and choose to not participate.
For what it is worth, Zebular, I do not want to bash the cash shop... In fact, if you will note before the link to that video where she said that Foundry kits would not be charged for, I said that the game will be free to play, so they should look to monetize every aspect of it.
I want them to make it profitable to them. But i would like to think that all aspects could be made profitable, and worth investing in. But they only seem to want to monetize fluff. And based on previous observation, Fluff is all they really focus on with the exception of massive grindfests that require money spent by someone if you want to lessen the grind.
I see them doing witn NW the same thing that they have done with STO. We don't HAVE to pay for anything over there, either. Yet arguments still break out on the forums about lack of content...
Because they are playing up the importance of Foundry so much (and I love that they are), it is easy to assume that they would use it as a revenue generator by offering any content deployed after launch to be purchased as part of resource kits.
They could have made a fortune from the many who would turn foundry creation into a hobby. And people spend a lot on hobbies because they feel pride in their work...
I will refrain from re-expressing my thoughts concerning model railroads as they compart to foundry modules...
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
For what it is worth, Zebular, I do not want to bash the cash shop... In fact, if you will note before the link to that video where she said that Foundry kits would not be charged for, I said that the game will be free to play, so they should look to monetize every aspect of it.
I want them to make it profitable to them. But i would like to think that all aspects could be made profitable, and worth investing in. But they only seem to want to monetize fluff. And based on previous observation, Fluff is all they really focus on with the exception of massive grindfests that require money spent by someone if you want to lessen the grind.
I see them doing witn NW the same thing that they have done with STO. We don't HAVE to pay for anything over there, either. Yet arguments still break out on the forums about lack of content...
Because they are playing up the importance of Foundry so much (and I love that they are), it is easy to assume that they would use it as a revenue generator by offering any content deployed after launch to be purchased as part of resource kits.
They could have made a fortune from the many who would turn foundry creation into a hobby. And people spend a lot on hobbies because they feel pride in their work...
I will refrain from re-expressing my thoughts concerning model railroads as they compart to foundry modules...
The Model Railroad analogy is interesting, being a avid Model Railroader I think it is also the last thing any developer should emulate, I have watched that hobby go from a hobby that even working class stiffs could participate in to a dying past time that is mostly enjoyed by the one percent of old middle aged to elderly rich dudes.; most of that was due to run away pricing and the monetizing of every aspect of the hobby.
One thing I learned at my time consulting with SOE was that fluff items bring in a metric HAMSTER ton of capitol, it also throws down the gauntlet of: "try to beat us as a value" to the competition. I see wisdom in that especially considering the economic downturn. If Cryptic can market the correct fluff items and make use of the right synergies (like offering different animal companions after offering the Ranger class) they will do quite well I think.
Comments
This is so wrong that it invalidates anything else you will be saying on this issue. Sorry.
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Also, they will put resources into making the game popular and better so their merchandise can sell. As they have already inferred, like comic books spend their resources to build new stories so that their toys (sorry... figurines) can sell well.
EDIT: OMG! Community is really becoming active. 5 new posts above me while I was typing... Had to tag the name because of that.
Anyone can claim something is wrong without having to provide any evidence to the contrary. But I'm completely willing to be convinced otherwise. All you have to do is give me an example of a F2P game that releases new mission content on a truly regular basis that doesnt charge for content packs. Cryptic's other 2 games certainly do not fit that description, as they get new mission content very rarely.
I'd like to point out that not every developer works on the same thing. So your argument of, "then 99% of their development effort is only on making new "fluff", meaning the game doesnt get any new content for a long time," is quite invalid and a common misconception for those who have never been in the MMO Gaming Industry.
Furthermore, "fluff" is quite a viable Cash Shop source of revenue. Just from my own personal experience, almost everything I buy in games with cash shops are "fluff" items. STO has been the one exception, where I will buy Starships. The rest however, in the STO C-Store is purely fluff and sells like crazy. STO has yet to charge for their Featured Episodes (content) and are doing quite well. Additionally, Forsaken World has yet to charge for content and the majority of their cash shop are fluff and convenience items.
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Have you ever played any PWE game? Or any f2p game in general?
Look at FW: All content is 100% free, and they even let you buy any premium items you want with in-game gold, so you don't have to spend money even on the fluff. Yet the game gets content updates every couple of months.
You are completely right. But if a game's main focus is on cash shop items, they wont have very many people on the team who make new mission content, meaning it will take longer to make. So while the "99%" comment was simply a figure of speech, the meaning is the same.
And as a STO player, please let everyone know how often STO receives new mission content.
I certainly have. I've played both of Cryptic's other games, and they hardly ever receive new mission content. I've also played games like DCUO and LOTRO which release new mission content on a regular basis, and charge for it.
People are not explaining this a lot because this has been discussed a lot in earlier posts. Please guys don't bash him
But you should look at Gamecom, germany video of neverwinter. It exlains these concerns quite in detail. Other reason people here are assuming that either you haven't been following neverwinter interviews a lot or you are intentionally trolling.
OK. Two pages created in a minute but now the system has stabilized
I'm not really concerned about what they say they'll do, but rather what they actually do. Unfortunately the 2 are quite often not the same, so I'm simply talking about what I have seen in my own personal experience.
First of all, if the game gets no content updates, then it gets boring. If game gets boring, people start leaving. If people leave, noone buys cashshop items anymore.
This is is chapter 1 of lesson 1 of F2P 101. Are you implying that any publisher that has survived for a few years in the f2p industry are such immense idiots that they're going to forget that? I think not.
Also... come on, how much time are a few costumes and cashshop rearrangements each month gonna take out of their workload? It's just modeling a dozen pieces of clothing, maybe a couple pets, and tweaking a few values on the cashshop client, they could just let a single member of their team do it alone and he'd still have time to stop for tea and cookies... So, 5% of the team's potential? Lets just say 10% if they're going all-out with costumes and pets... what the hell are they gonna do during that 90% that remains? Picking their noses or playing FarmVille?
I'm not sure I can respond to this any other way than I said initially. Seems like you're just rewording your argument, as it still remains the same and my response would be the same.
You can see for yourself, here. Do note that the recently released Seasons 5 and 6 aren't listed there.
Both CO and STO have been releasing content regularly. Mayhaps not as frequent as one may like, but still they both have been releasing content as needed. In fact, CO has had two releases since it went F2P.
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I agree, that is true. You said you played STO, right? Can you please tell everyone how often STO gets new mission content?
I said I played FW. Which is a proper f2p game, instead of the p2p gone f2p that STO is. And which gets major content updates every 3-4 months and a few extra minor content updates in between.
Why must we tell others? Besides, I answered you already.
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I suggest you look into the changes cryptic has brought in its two games after being absorbed by PWE. It seems to me you left cryptic years ago disgruntled and have not been following the cryptic games. I suggest looking into Dilithium or some other rare metal involved in alternate universes....
@Zebular:- Yeah I understand. Just below your answer is the same question But let us be more patient and give benefit of doubt that you were a ninja in posting it and he did not see as fast as you appeared.
EDIT: Nah! scrap it I give up!
That page lists a total of 20 missions over a 1.5 years(from Aug 28, 2010 to March 10, 2011). Do you honestly think that is a regular basis?
Just so we're clear, I'm talking about mission content, not simply "updates". Some updates are mainly mechanical/systems based and do not include much new playable content.
Very well, let's just decide that our opinions of "regular content" vary then. However, there hasn't been one STO Season Update that hasn't brought in new playable content.
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Cryptic was purchased by PW in May of 2011. Since that time period STO has released 1 FE series(5 missions) and 3 game updates that were largely system based and included very little mission content.
This is exactly what I am talking about.
The irony is that when officially created content doesn't come out as fast as c-store fluff, people complain, but if you dare suggest that content packs be charged for so that making them would become profitable and so would encourage making more of them, those same people scream that if they do that, they are gone!
Which is it? Do you want content delivered regularly, or do you want to go month after month with only fluff in the c-store added that you have no interest in?
And for those who would be foundry authirs who would say, the moment I have to pay for resource kits, I'm gone! it is the same thing. If the only thing that is making them money is fluff items in the C-store, what motivation will they have to release free resource kit additions to you? They are even talking about giving foundry authors free slots if their modules get rated high enough. That's cool, I'll give them that. But slots are monetized anyway, so for those who don't measure up, there's still the option to buy slots.
But are new art assets worth the development resources if it will return no profit for them?
And PROFIT is the name of the game for these people.
But then, with Foundry providing potentially endless content, they don't need to keep content developers on staff. If no official playable content is going to be developed, you don't need artists to design new art for it. So I guess they won't need to charge for content patches or resource kits. Because there won't be new forthcominc content to warrant either.
We can expect to see Neverwinter stagnate in terms of everything but fluff on the C-store. and what we see at launch will likely be all we get for a long while. I hope they have a MASSIVE selection of character costumes to choose from. Or a massive selection of multi-colored pets, some with and without sparkles all sold separately, and a massive number of visibly different mounts all sold separately, and uniquely scaled for all different races, sold separately... And I hope they have a massive number of new races that are merely varriations on familiar races but with different hair options and skin colors, that actually have no real basis in D&D lore, but the mysterious portal found in a the deep woods by lumberjacks who cut a trail in accidentally activated so now this world is being visited by being from countless other worlds. This will be their introduction to the creature editor that STO has but won't really fit within D&D's setting because of limited races.
Believe me. In a game where fluff items are the central focus of what makes them money, they will do all sorts of things with it. Unless they do break their word and introduce more than cosmetic items to the C-store.
Content creation options will be the last thing on their list. And because Foundry will be meant to carry the game beyond the official starter playable content, there will likely BE no official playable content added.
Go read the STO forums. Look how hard it is for them to get playable content into player hands. Oh but C-store fluff is easy. So if all they end up releasing for NW is C-store fluff, then aside from foundry slots, they will get no money from me. I only buy what I perceive that I need. What I need from a game is playable content. And if I am creating foundry missions, I will need slots. I won't need fluff so I will have no other reason to buy it except that it might look cool.
I predict that after the game launches, when a few months go by and there are no new elements added to the Foundry and no new modules added onto the official adventure campaign, these forums will be innundated with posts begging for it. Some will say "I have bought every suit of armor you've put on the C-store! How much do I have to spend before we get even one new mission or new assets for making missions?" If this does not happen, I will happily admit to being wrong.
However, I have predicted almost every negative turn that has happened to several MMO in the last few years. I've been right 95% of the time, and the 5% of the time that I was wrong was because what I predicted occurred sooner because I gave some suit too much credit.
Time will tell.
There's still a lot we don't know.
Things may balance out.
We shall see.
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills...
...Blood and ashes!
but I play one on the forums...
:P
I'm not claiming that STO's seasons have no new playable content; just not very much. The last season added about a dozen missions that you can que to play. My point is simply that a dozen missions is far less than the amount of content added to games that actually sell content packs.
I beg to differ.
Season 5
Just one excerpt: Season 6
An excerpt:
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The complaints do not matter if the complainers still wind up spending money in the end. Many people will kick and scream and throw a big tantrum only to turn around and actually buy what they are complaining about. So the question isnt whether people will complain or not(because people will always complain), it is simply whether it will make money or not.
There actually isn't any point. Can't you see where discussion is going? In the end it will be, "It is not free. You have to give electricity bills and internet charges for download."
A discussion about f2p should start with a reference point which has not been provided. So the reference is ever-shifting mirage.
*the mage chuckles*
Tis time for me to planeswalk over to the Star Trek Universe anyhow. I just bought the new TNG Season 1 uniforms. I love uniforms.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Yep... And if nobody buys it, it won't make money. But nobody will buy if if it isn't sold.
Allow me to illustrate this with an example from STO, namely the still unfinished after more that two and a half years Klingon Defense Force faction (KDF):
KDF players complain about not enough content
Cryptic tells them that the budget for development is based on what the majority of players actually play, and that not enough people are playing KDF content.
KDF players counter that there is hardly any KDF content to play.
Cryptic suggests that if more people played the KDF content it might increase the priority of development.
KDF players not only do that, but they also buy every bit of the few KDF-only items on the C-store.
Cryptic proceeds to not only shelve the completion of KDF content, but they increase the Federation character level needed to gain access to the little KDF content that does exist to Level 25, thus encouraging people to not even be interested. It wouldn't surprise me if a significant number of newcomers to STO after the FTP conversion don't even know that they CAN EVEN PLAY as a Klingon...
Cryptic blames the low priority on KDF content on the lack of player interest, in spite of the fact that lack of player interest is directly due to their low priority on KDF content.
there may be different development teams working on STO and NW, but the suits who prioritize what gets worked on and how often are the same.
And as for all the cool things Jack Emmert sat there and spouted about NW in those two videos? I heard him. But i don't put any stock in what he had to say.
Why not?
Because I cannot help but think back to another video where Jack after being introduced by none other than the legendary Leonard Nimoy, looked into our collective eyes and went on and on about what Star Trek Online was going to be...
Here are links to that presentation:
| Part Four || Part Five |
Now if you have ever played STO, tell me how much of that is what was delivered?
Same people in high places as far as I am concerned, so I have no reason to expect much different. We'll know early next year when the game comes out. But i won't hold my breath.
Someone said to me earlier on that I won't HAVE to pay anything. That's right. I don't have to. But Cryptic would like me to. But what they are selling I don't want. And what I want, they won't sell. And because they won't sell it, it won't make them any money. And because it want make them any money, they won't budget the development resources on it. And because they won't budget the resources to develop it, the forums will be filled with posts begging for it. But in spite of that eventuality, they still won't step up development of anything but C-store fluff. People will leave. But it won't bother Cryptic because they weren't paying anyway. Those who will remain and will pay for nothing but fluff will still sustain the game. But still, playable content will remain a low priority. Heck if left only with the Fluff-junkies, playable content will be NO priority, because as long as the fluff junkies have fluff to buy, they'll be satisfied.
Those of us wanting a game with real meat to it will be playing something else.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Season 5's development started before the sale of Cryptic Studios to PWE. It's development was suspended pending the FTP relaunch. It took several months after for it to be completed. Almost a full year with no content released.
It should be noted that Season 6 is mostly about starbases. And just to be clear, Starbases are mostly about a massive grind that can only be lessened if you spend real money... No. We did not have to pay for it. But if we want to get anywhere in it without having a lot of time to devote to it, we have to purchase Refined Dilithium on the dilithium exchange for Zen, which you have to spend real money to get...
And in that two-part video she mentioned being able to trade Zen for an in-game currency on an exchange. So pardon me if I don't fall out of my chair in shock when the same things happen in NW. Gameplay content that seems very cool and awesome that you can freely participate in, but will take forever to grind your way through it unless you have the Neverwinter equivilant of Refined Dilithium, which you will have to spend Zen to get, which you'll have to spend real money on to get...
And let us not forget PWE-Cryptic's other favorite moneymaker:
Lockboxes. Or shall I say, "Lottery Boxes". In STO, these drop from anything you can fight. But you cannot open them unless you have a key. And you can only get a key on the C-store. And what do you get when you open the box? You get a chance to get the grand prize item, which is usually a limited edition ship that you cannot buy directly off the C-store for any money. There are people who have poured hundreds of dollars into buying keys and have yet to get one. For the record, Lockboxes did not show up in STO until after PWE bought Cryptic.
I'm sure I'll have loads of fun with NW, playing what is freely available. And I do intend to play it. I just don't see it offering me anything that I would want to spend money on.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
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But you were all to happy to discuss other aspects of the game when you thought you were "winning the argument". Its only after you have your posts refuted that you decide the discussion is off topic? Ok.
You mean, another aspect. Not aspects. I indulged in the content discussion but now with the interjection and subject change to the cash shop and morality of game companies, I see the posts for what they are and choose to not participate.
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I want them to make it profitable to them. But i would like to think that all aspects could be made profitable, and worth investing in. But they only seem to want to monetize fluff. And based on previous observation, Fluff is all they really focus on with the exception of massive grindfests that require money spent by someone if you want to lessen the grind.
I see them doing witn NW the same thing that they have done with STO. We don't HAVE to pay for anything over there, either. Yet arguments still break out on the forums about lack of content...
Because they are playing up the importance of Foundry so much (and I love that they are), it is easy to assume that they would use it as a revenue generator by offering any content deployed after launch to be purchased as part of resource kits.
They could have made a fortune from the many who would turn foundry creation into a hobby. And people spend a lot on hobbies because they feel pride in their work...
I will refrain from re-expressing my thoughts concerning model railroads as they compart to foundry modules...
but I play one on the forums...
:P
The Model Railroad analogy is interesting, being a avid Model Railroader I think it is also the last thing any developer should emulate, I have watched that hobby go from a hobby that even working class stiffs could participate in to a dying past time that is mostly enjoyed by the one percent of old middle aged to elderly rich dudes.; most of that was due to run away pricing and the monetizing of every aspect of the hobby.
One thing I learned at my time consulting with SOE was that fluff items bring in a metric HAMSTER ton of capitol, it also throws down the gauntlet of: "try to beat us as a value" to the competition. I see wisdom in that especially considering the economic downturn. If Cryptic can market the correct fluff items and make use of the right synergies (like offering different animal companions after offering the Ranger class) they will do quite well I think.