beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Tough post to make, but I commend you for stepping up to be messenger.
I own all the "problematic" sets except the SW one, but haven't actually used them in new content because I never had the guild boons to feel comfortable wearing them.
As this is a somewhat of a divisive issue I wanted to give everyone a heads up that we will be removing pre-Module 6 set bonuses with the release of Storm King's Thunder: Sea of Moving Ice.
First I'm going to preview an upcoming patchnote that addresses the change:
Removal of Legacy Set Bonuses As part of our efforts to reign in runaway power sources we have removed all set bonuses from level 60 equipment that has been unobtainable since the release of Module 6: Elemental Evil. During the release of Module 6 these set bonuses were left in game with the intent that they would gradually fade out of use. However, data has shown that these sets continue to contribute to some of the fastest content runtimes.
Because there is also a tremendous amount of runaway survivability available to adventurers in groups, the downside of many classes wearing these level 60 sets is minimal. With the release of a new highly difficult endgame trial, we would like everyone to start on the same footing regardless of whether they played before Module 6.
We believe those in possession of these sets have gotten substantial use out of them and we ask you for your understanding with this adjustment.
The above patch note more or less covers all the bases, but as this is a hot button issue for the small number of players this change affects, as well as for those engaged in our endgame without these sets, I'd like to talk a bit more about why the change is happening and why now.
The evergreen nature of these set bonuses is counter to our design for equipment. Currently, we have a lot of systems wherein items remain useful on the same scale as others in that system for long periods: companions, mounts, enchantments, etc. Equipment is not one of those systems. We'd like the lifetime of a piece of equipment for a vanguard endgame player to be on the order of months, possibly close to a year assuming some amount of upgrading. Many of the sets being hit by this change have been around for over 2 years. Even in their inception they were not intended to be best in slot for this long.
With a set this good it is difficult to make a new rewards exciting. Obviously once you reach the top of endgame, we don't want to diminish earning a new piece of equipment because you are replacing it every few weeks. However, we also want to be able to release new equipment that is exciting to obtain and lets you challenge newer and more difficult content. If a 2 year old set of equipment is still the best in the game, there's not nearly as much to be excited about with a new set, even if the old set is out of your reach.
Powers like those found on these sets make creating enjoyable and balanced content extremely difficult. The bonus power some of these sets grant is completely unclamped. There are a lot of buffs and debuffs in Neverwinter that are percent based and stack with one another, leading to absolutely astounding feats of damage and survivability. Ideally fights and endgame are a test of player skill with better equipment allowing for more room for error. As it is, the difference in difficulty from one group to another depends largely on what buffs and debuffs they are stacking. Runaway damage bonuses can make content trivial regardless of player skill or the technical challenge presented by an encounter. We continue to make powers adjustments with fun content in mind, and these set bonuses are not the first or last of such changes.
These sets are broken in situations where survivability is not an issue. Many arguments against removing these set bonuses propose that they are impractical to use in many situations because they fail to grant the survivability of newer sets. It is inferred that using these sets requires a much higher player skill. While this may be true in some situations, these are not the situations where these sets are out of hand. In group content with a healer and a tank, survivability right now is exceptionally high. This has created an atmosphere where damage values by necessity are extremely high, making the life of most non-tanks very binary. In other words, survivability in these situations is a non-issue and the benefit is just too strong.
Our queue data is being skewed by the existence of these sets. Despite claims to the contrary, data shows that the fastest groups completing Fangbreaker are in fact running these sets. Currently our fastest recorded time in Fangbreaker is 16 minutes and 37 seconds. This is exceptionally below our average and median runtimes. As you may be able to guess the cleric in that group was running High Prophet while the wizard was running High Vizier. As long as our data is thus skewed by sets that are no longer obtainable, it is very difficult for us to accurately balance rewards. While we never balance for the absolute fastest runs this skew is so large that it brings down our averages. Eliminating all groups running these sets from our data would be time consuming, in addition, in cases where items are flowing into the economy, these sets will increase that rate significantly over what was expected.
Hopefully for those of you who are affected by this change can have a stronger appreciation for why we're making it. We ask for your understanding and believe that with these changes we can continue to build a better game for everyone.
As someone who owns two of the faulty sets (HP and HV), I see this as a very positive change and fully agree with all your points. However, I do hope this isn't an isolated incident and that it merely means it's the very first step of addressing the very old and long standing issue that buffs and debuffs stacking is. As you said the game is more about being invulnerable (thank you, anointed army, thank you, fighter's recovery + steel defence) while stacking silly amounts of buffs and debuffs to trivialize the content and ignore the mechanics entirely.
While buffs and debuffs should be a legitimate and enjoyable part of the game, it shouldn't provide so much benefits. It's just way too good. So, I do hope it's the very first step of an entire overhaul of how damage is calculated and applied to monsters, along with a serious overhaul of endgame reward drops and drop rates to match the changes accordingly. Both have to happen at the same time, I hope it's not something we, players, have to fight for once you address the buffs and debuffs issues.
Just a thought, but it would be good to do something to prevent people with 'insider knowledge' from ripping off those who don't know about the change.
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
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forumnamesuxsMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 490Arc User
....However, we also want to be able to release new equipment that is exciting to obtain....
Then why did you add empowerment to the relic and frostborn sets? If I ever get the items required to make a relic piece, I'll be as happy about it as if I found a half eaten orange in that chest.
Hopefully for those of you who are affected by this change can have a stronger appreciation for why we're making it. We ask for your understanding and believe that with these changes we can continue to build a better game for everyone.
My MoF will cry himself to sleep at night, but I won't.
Wolves, big as a horse! I need new pants!
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2016
On the bright side, I can be 100% sure that nobody got below 15 minutes like they were claiming and the times clocked by the teams I run with were the fastest (I was fairly sure they were).
On another note, @asterdahl, considering I was in the groups clocking those times, I think I can also fairly confidently say that Commander's Strike is more overpowered than both bonuses combined. When we took off the sets, we lost a small amount of time, when our gf stopped using CS, we lost 3-4 minutes.
You would also go a long way towards addressing balance if buffs were no longer multiplicative with each other and instead added. The same is true for debuffs, only you should change them so they all add with each other and there are not 2 separate categories.
Runaway damage bonuses can make content trivial regardless of player skill or the technical challenge presented by an encounter.
Reading over this, it's difficult to put my thoughts into words. I understand what you're saying, and while I know it may be challenging for people to accept the fact that some of these sources (and not just these sets), needs to be addressed, I can only sum up my current thoughts on the Dev team taking a harder look at this in one way...
We reported the real issues several times and you just ignore the data from people that actually test stuff (<- yeah, this is a link) but you keep paying attention to the QQ from people that have no idea what they are talking about.
@asterdahl is officially gangster. Kudos and thank you for communicating with the community. My only recommendation is to offer some level of compensation--perhaps a (verrry) massive increase in rough astral diamond salvage value for specific pre-mod 6 pieces.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
@asterdahl is officially gangster. Kudos and thank you for communicating with the community. My only recommendation is to offer some level of compensation--perhaps a (verrry) massive increase in rough astral diamond salvage value for specific pre-mod 6 pieces.
Why? Was not the benefit these sets continued to offer for over three years benefit enough?
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Just a thought, but it would be good to do something to prevent people with 'insider knowledge' from ripping off those who don't know about the change.
We reported the real issues several times and you just ignore the data from people that actually test stuff (<- yeah, this is a link) but you keep paying attention to the QQ from people that have no idea what they are talking about.</p>
Meh. See it as a first step. The devs are aware of the fact that buffs are a major cause of imbalance. Besides the lack of progression on the gear side needed to be addressed too. There's really no need to be that whinny. This is a very positive change and the game is going in the right direction. Old sets aren't the biggest offenders in terms of cheesing (annointed army is by far the #1 offender and this needs a severe nerf asap, AP gain in general is #2 most likely) but they were causing so many side issues @asterdahl explained that they decided to address this one first.
Oh come on, it's obvious that they removed it because people were crying after watching our video. They also hid the thread. And it's hilarious because as a cleric with the new set I buff almost the same (I admit there could be 3-4% difference, that's game changing probably).
With a set this good it is difficult to make a new rewards exciting. Obviously once you reach the top of endgame, we don't want to diminish earning a new piece of equipment because you are replacing it every few weeks. However, we also want to be able to release new equipment that is exciting to obtain and lets you challenge newer and more difficult content. If a 2 year old set of equipment is still the best in the game, there's not nearly as much to be excited about with a new set, even if the old set is out of your reach.
Powers like those found on these sets make creating enjoyable and balanced content extremely difficult. The bonus power some of these sets grant is completely unclamped. There are a lot of buffs and debuffs in Neverwinter that are percent based and stack with one another, leading to absolutely astounding feats of damage and survivability. Ideally fights and endgame are a test of player skill with better equipment allowing for more room for error. As it is, the difference in difficulty from one group to another depends largely on what buffs and debuffs they are stacking. Runaway damage bonuses can make content trivial regardless of player skill or the technical challenge presented by an encounter. We continue to make powers adjustments with fun content in mind, and these set bonuses are not the first or last of such changes.
I'm personally unaffected by the mod 5 sets being removed- I own the sets but I don't often run them on my PCs. A bigger concern of mine is the degrading nature of the armor being offered in SKT campaign. I don't see a reason to undergo a painfully long grind for this content if I'm only going to have the rug swept out from under me when in the future the requirements for the EF resistance are lifted for rewards that aren't any better than a t2 dungeon loot. I do not want gear that I constantly have to feed. I have alts and I play this game for fun, not as a job.
Are you going to have 'Empowered' gear that we have to craft/grind for pieces of as a new gear model going forward? I can tell you that even if you removed the gear bonuses from mod 5 gear I still don't find the new SKT gear interesting if it degrades or requires me to farm it with RNG in mind. I much prefer gear that once I grind for it or purchase it from a vendor it's the gear I have on and I no longer have to worry about it.
Take VB infusion off the gear for FBI or remove the EF resist requirement. One or the other. The gates are simply too much for too little reward when the armor is found broken and in pieces anyway.
If you're serious about increasing the reward.. I would like to know more about what these plans are and I'm very curious about it. I have yet to run FBI on live server since I don't have the will or the patience to grind out more HEs than I already have looking for boots that I've not seen at all and the gear grind doesn't seem necessary for any of the other content I run on a regular basis.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
You could add some sort of compensation like what you did when the Lostmauth's set was fixed. It would be fair if players could trade their old sets for a choice of the new ones. Not saying that you should allow trading them for the new T3 set, it's just a path that could be taken into consideration.
It's about time that they removed this symbol of inequality. As an owner/active user of all of these mod5 sets except for FI, I can echo what others have said: they make a small difference for the best equipped players (not nearly the source of power they are touted to be). As @thefabricant mentioned, certain powers are SIGNIFICANTLY more imbalanced than these sets.
BUT
These sets are a symbol of a great power gap. Most people don't understand how they work, but they see them on "overpowered" players and assume that's where the power is coming from. If this removal can help draw attention to the real sources of imbalance, I'm all for it. As has been mentioned, losing these sets doesn't really nerf any of my builds significantly (MoF CW loses the most, but it's still not overly significant).
FURTHERMORE
As mentioned above, I truly hope that this is the first step towards bringing some of the most broken mechanics in line. Removing these sets is probably a necessary first step towards capturing more accurate performance data. Again, I fully believe they are not as impactful as claimed, but they introduce enough confusion in the data that their removal is warranted even for that reason alone.
HOWEVER
I'm not optimistic. I think this is likely a bandaid to quiet some of the loudest voices whining about imbalance in the game. The devs haven't demonstrated a willingness or ability to take a serious approach to balancing the game (every change brings more imbalance than before). Sure, they'll collect some data. Maybe. And maybe they'll balance some stuff with it. Eventually.
IN SUMMARY
The decision to remove the mod5 sets is a symbolic one, not a real fix to the underlying issues. Maybe it will help expose the underlying issues. Given the recent track record with "balancing" this game so far (especially recent changes), it might make sense to remove these sets if only to try to make things a tiny bit easier for the devs to handle. They need all the help they can scrape together.
Oh come on, it's obvious that they removed it because people were crying after watching our video. They also hid the thread. And it's hilarious because as a cleric with the new set I buff almost the same (I admit there could be 3-4% difference, that's game changing probably).
You didn't read @asterdahl 's post did you? He explained things from the designer's perspective. It was the first thing they had to address on that matter for many reasons, namely: - giving incentives to acquire new gear. Rewards are important to keep us engaged on the long run. - following the design rules for post mod 6 gear. They have a designer's handbook to follow. There are many good reasons to have one. Like not breaking the game entirely (yes it could absolutely be far worse than it is).
In the meantime he also clearly acknowledges that buffs and debuffs are an issue and are used to greatly trivialize content. These sets are of course the tip of the iceberg. It's what gets the most attention from players, because they're a cause for major social issues within the game - i've explained that somewhere - but it doesn't mean that the risk/rewards balance wasn't completely off when using these sets anyway.
I also pushed hard against these sets, not because they're OP but because they're perceived as such, and frankly I'm tired of being expected to play with 50k hit points in group content, it's as simple as that. Again, the social issues it causes went far beyond the little cheesing aspect they provided. As a DC i was totally expected to run that old HAMSTER and I had to build my entire character around this. Needless to say, this was extremely frustrating as I was lacking a critical resources others had access to: hit points. Because I'm an idiot who likes pleasing the players he plays with, so I sucked it up and used the old HAMSTER. I'm glad this is over now.
We all know these sets are not the biggest offenders. Anyone who went to elementary school can understand that when stuff multiplies it gets ugly fast, like buffs do. I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of that. It's, however, most likely not the best time to start talking about this as the designers may not be completely ready to share the details on possible fixes with us. What if they're still discussing solutions?
Again, this shows that they do understand that they're aware of the tremendous cheesing buffs and debuffs stacking offer, but it's not the right thread to discuss that as cryptic may still not have picked a definitive answer on that matter. All we can do is raising awareness so that it stays very high on the list of priorities.
Yes diogene I read until the end and this part really made by day: "Our queue data is being skewed by the existence of these sets. Despite claims to the contrary, data shows that the fastest groups completing Fangbreaker are in fact running these sets. Currently our fastest recorded time in Fangbreaker is 16 minutes and 37 seconds. This is exceptionally below our average and median runtimes. As you may be able to guess the cleric in that group was running High Prophet while the wizard was running High Vizier."
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isaintify1Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 414Arc User
As this is a somewhat of a divisive issue I wanted to give everyone a heads up that we will be removing pre-Module 6 set bonuses with the release of Storm King's Thunder: Sea of Moving Ice.
First I'm going to preview an upcoming patchnote that addresses the change:
Removal of Legacy Set Bonuses As part of our efforts to reign in runaway power sources we have removed all set bonuses from level 60 equipment that has been unobtainable since the release of Module 6: Elemental Evil. During the release of Module 6 these set bonuses were left in game with the intent that they would gradually fade out of use. However, data has shown that these sets continue to contribute to some of the fastest content runtimes.
Because there is also a tremendous amount of runaway survivability available to adventurers in groups, the downside of many classes wearing these level 60 sets is minimal. With the release of a new highly difficult endgame trial, we would like everyone to start on the same footing regardless of whether they played before Module 6.
We believe those in possession of these sets have gotten substantial use out of them and we ask you for your understanding with this adjustment.
The above patch note more or less covers all the bases, but as this is a hot button issue for the small number of players this change affects, as well as for those engaged in our endgame without these sets, I'd like to talk a bit more about why the change is happening and why now.
The evergreen nature of these set bonuses is counter to our design for equipment. Currently, we have a lot of systems wherein items remain useful on the same scale as others in that system for long periods: companions, mounts, enchantments, etc. Equipment is not one of those systems. We'd like the lifetime of a piece of equipment for a vanguard endgame player to be on the order of months, possibly close to a year assuming some amount of upgrading. Many of the sets being hit by this change have been around for over 2 years. Even in their inception they were not intended to be best in slot for this long.
With a set this good it is difficult to make a new rewards exciting. Obviously once you reach the top of endgame, we don't want to diminish earning a new piece of equipment because you are replacing it every few weeks. However, we also want to be able to release new equipment that is exciting to obtain and lets you challenge newer and more difficult content. If a 2 year old set of equipment is still the best in the game, there's not nearly as much to be excited about with a new set, even if the old set is out of your reach.
Powers like those found on these sets make creating enjoyable and balanced content extremely difficult. The bonus power some of these sets grant is completely unclamped. There are a lot of buffs and debuffs in Neverwinter that are percent based and stack with one another, leading to absolutely astounding feats of damage and survivability. Ideally fights and endgame are a test of player skill with better equipment allowing for more room for error. As it is, the difference in difficulty from one group to another depends largely on what buffs and debuffs they are stacking. Runaway damage bonuses can make content trivial regardless of player skill or the technical challenge presented by an encounter. We continue to make powers adjustments with fun content in mind, and these set bonuses are not the first or last of such changes.
These sets are broken in situations where survivability is not an issue. Many arguments against removing these set bonuses propose that they are impractical to use in many situations because they fail to grant the survivability of newer sets. It is inferred that using these sets requires a much higher player skill. While this may be true in some situations, these are not the situations where these sets are out of hand. In group content with a healer and a tank, survivability right now is exceptionally high. This has created an atmosphere where damage values by necessity are extremely high, making the life of most non-tanks very binary. In other words, survivability in these situations is a non-issue and the benefit is just too strong.
Our queue data is being skewed by the existence of these sets. Despite claims to the contrary, data shows that the fastest groups completing Fangbreaker are in fact running these sets. Currently our fastest recorded time in Fangbreaker is 16 minutes and 37 seconds. This is exceptionally below our average and median runtimes. As you may be able to guess the cleric in that group was running High Prophet while the wizard was running High Vizier. As long as our data is thus skewed by sets that are no longer obtainable, it is very difficult for us to accurately balance rewards. While we never balance for the absolute fastest runs this skew is so large that it brings down our averages. Eliminating all groups running these sets from our data would be time consuming, in addition, in cases where items are flowing into the economy, these sets will increase that rate significantly over what was expected.
Hopefully for those of you who are affected by this change can have a stronger appreciation for why we're making it. We ask for your understanding and believe that with these changes we can continue to build a better game for everyone.
Really? With these sets it makes new rewards not as "exciting". I can tell you right now that these "rewards" are not "exciting". I honestly am more disappointed in rewards now then how it used to be before module 6. I remember the sheer excitement when I rolled and won a piece of gear that dropped my a dungeon boss. You think its exciting to spend 5 minutes (in a good run) to kill orcus and recieve a rank 5 or 6 enchantment? DO you think its fun to defeat the bosses in FBI to only get SILVER as a drop from the boss? There is so much wrong with all of this, and its hilarious to see you just assume we are "excited" about ANY of the new gear and equipment.
@ironzerg79 because many people spent multiple millions to obtain them and the problem was not addressed for over a year. Why should they not be allowed a nice rough AD salvage value?
If the developers allow 'broken' items to stay in the game for excessive periods of time (see Lostmauth), it would be fair in my estimation to offer an exchange. These sets should have been appropriately adjusted when mod 6 was relased, but that did not happen.
I don't post much on the forum, but I read a lot. Today I'm posting that I agree with @isaintify1. Since mod6, rewards aren't exciting. With mod10, FBI rewards are the worst ever considering how challenging it is and the grinds required to even get them in the first place.
Bring back worty loots like in mod5. We love challenging contents ALONG with rewarding loots!
Gear becomes obsolete in MMOs,thats just the sad fact of things. See also BI armor, Elven armor, Golden Dragon Weapons...
Your HP/HV just took longer to get to the pile. So, no, there shouldn't be any sort of 'reward' for using a broken set. You chose to roll the dice and use outdated gear, at great cost. Others chose to grind out new stuff. Don't blame us for your financial missteps, or expect to be rewarded for it.
@ironzerg79 because many people spent multiple millions to obtain them and the problem was not addressed for over a year. Why should they not be allowed a nice rough AD salvage value?
If the developers allow 'broken' items to stay in the game for excessive periods of time (see Lostmauth), it would be fair in my estimation to offer an exchange. These sets should have been appropriately adjusted when mod 6 was relased, but that did not happen.
Agreed. Literally the same argument holds for the lostmauth set, and they saw fit to offer the exchange vendor to compensate.
Perhaps we should be able to trade our mod5 gear for "approved" gear sets? hahaha turn in your HV for a dusk or drowcraft. Just kidding though, clearly they're seeking to punish players for abusing these horrible sets that they left in game, and will be offering no compensation.
@cdnbison its not just the matter of hanging on to old gear with an expectation of being rewarded. People also weren't necessarily 'rolling the dice' when the issue was prevalent for such a long period of time. Nobody is blaming you for any "financial missteps."
Nearly all DPS classes used the Lostmauth set bonus because it was BiS.
Nearly all classes use mod 5 set bonuses because they are BiS.
The Lostmauth bug was not addressed for an extended period of time and the devs kindly offered a fair exchange. Awesome move if you ask me.
The mod 5 set bonuses have been around since... mod 5. Their effectiveness has not been addressed until now, mod 10.5. That's 4.5 mods later. The gear still BiS (and rare), which is why the price tag is so high.
Therefore, getting back to my original comment, a generous salvage value is fair and should not adversely affect any platform's economy.
As someone who owns two of the faulty sets (HP and HV), I see this as a very positive change and fully agree with all your points. However, I do hope this isn't an isolated incident and that it merely means it's the very first step of addressing the very old and long standing issue that buffs and debuffs stacking is. As you said the game is more about being invulnerable (thank you, anointed army, thank you, fighter's recovery + steel defence) while stacking silly amounts of buffs and debuffs to trivialize the content and ignore the mechanics entirely.
We're aiming to continue addressing these problematic areas, we even have some additional adjustments planned for this module. This is a first step we felt we had to take to ensure that as we continued to make these adjustments we were affecting groups equally.
Obviously this issue has remained stagnant for a long time so I can understand those who are skeptical of impending changes. All I can say is: please continue to watch for future adjustments and continue to provide feedback. It's very valuable to us.
Just a thought, but it would be good to do something to prevent people with 'insider knowledge' from ripping off those who don't know about the change.
As others have pointed out, this change is already on Reddit. We have some great community members who will make sure this information gets out there. I posted this where I felt it was most appropriate to discuss. I wanted to wait until the preview forums were active again with the upcoming module. That being said, we felt this did not really deserve its own blog post as this change actually only affects a fairly limited number of players. I'd rather communicate with you all more directly through the forums in this case.
You could add some sort of compensation like what you did when the Lostmauth's set was fixed.
As others have pointed out, those with the sets have already gotten a tremendous amount of use out of them, including substantially reduced farming times which lead directly to profit. This is a different case than Lostmauth due to refinement investment and other factors. Equipment was never meant to last this long so we're not currently looking to implement any sort of compensation.
Also, anyone else find it funny that this MAJOR planned update was posted as a necro thread rather than an official announcement?
Not that it matters, it's just funny given how much grief we give players for necro'ing threads...
As I mentioned above I wouldn't consider this a major update given the fact that these are items only a limited number of players have and that they have been intentionally unavailable for nearly 2 years. However, I did dig back a few pages to this thread because I felt like it was better for this post to be in context of the discussion.
Generally if a new thread is started here on the preview forums by a dev, it's as a feedback thread for a new feature. I did not want to cause any confusion or divert too much attention for most players from providing feedback on the upcoming module.
As this is a somewhat of a divisive issue I wanted to give everyone a heads up that we will be removing pre-Module 6 set bonuses with the release of Storm King's Thunder: Sea of Moving Ice.
First I'm going to preview an upcoming patchnote that addresses the change:
Removal of Legacy Set Bonuses As part of our efforts to reign in runaway power sources we have removed all set bonuses from level 60 equipment that has been unobtainable since the release of Module 6: Elemental Evil. During the release of Module 6 these set bonuses were left in game with the intent that they would gradually fade out of use. However, data has shown that these sets continue to contribute to some of the fastest content runtimes.
Because there is also a tremendous amount of runaway survivability available to adventurers in groups, the downside of many classes wearing these level 60 sets is minimal. With the release of a new highly difficult endgame trial, we would like everyone to start on the same footing regardless of whether they played before Module 6.
We believe those in possession of these sets have gotten substantial use out of them and we ask you for your understanding with this adjustment.
The above patch note more or less covers all the bases, but as this is a hot button issue for the small number of players this change affects, as well as for those engaged in our endgame without these sets, I'd like to talk a bit more about why the change is happening and why now.
The evergreen nature of these set bonuses is counter to our design for equipment. Currently, we have a lot of systems wherein items remain useful on the same scale as others in that system for long periods: companions, mounts, enchantments, etc. Equipment is not one of those systems. We'd like the lifetime of a piece of equipment for a vanguard endgame player to be on the order of months, possibly close to a year assuming some amount of upgrading. Many of the sets being hit by this change have been around for over 2 years. Even in their inception they were not intended to be best in slot for this long.
With a set this good it is difficult to make a new rewards exciting. Obviously once you reach the top of endgame, we don't want to diminish earning a new piece of equipment because you are replacing it every few weeks. However, we also want to be able to release new equipment that is exciting to obtain and lets you challenge newer and more difficult content. If a 2 year old set of equipment is still the best in the game, there's not nearly as much to be excited about with a new set, even if the old set is out of your reach.
Powers like those found on these sets make creating enjoyable and balanced content extremely difficult. The bonus power some of these sets grant is completely unclamped. There are a lot of buffs and debuffs in Neverwinter that are percent based and stack with one another, leading to absolutely astounding feats of damage and survivability. Ideally fights and endgame are a test of player skill with better equipment allowing for more room for error. As it is, the difference in difficulty from one group to another depends largely on what buffs and debuffs they are stacking. Runaway damage bonuses can make content trivial regardless of player skill or the technical challenge presented by an encounter. We continue to make powers adjustments with fun content in mind, and these set bonuses are not the first or last of such changes.
These sets are broken in situations where survivability is not an issue. Many arguments against removing these set bonuses propose that they are impractical to use in many situations because they fail to grant the survivability of newer sets. It is inferred that using these sets requires a much higher player skill. While this may be true in some situations, these are not the situations where these sets are out of hand. In group content with a healer and a tank, survivability right now is exceptionally high. This has created an atmosphere where damage values by necessity are extremely high, making the life of most non-tanks very binary. In other words, survivability in these situations is a non-issue and the benefit is just too strong.
Our queue data is being skewed by the existence of these sets. Despite claims to the contrary, data shows that the fastest groups completing Fangbreaker are in fact running these sets. Currently our fastest recorded time in Fangbreaker is 16 minutes and 37 seconds. This is exceptionally below our average and median runtimes. As you may be able to guess the cleric in that group was running High Prophet while the wizard was running High Vizier. As long as our data is thus skewed by sets that are no longer obtainable, it is very difficult for us to accurately balance rewards. While we never balance for the absolute fastest runs this skew is so large that it brings down our averages. Eliminating all groups running these sets from our data would be time consuming, in addition, in cases where items are flowing into the economy, these sets will increase that rate significantly over what was expected.
Hopefully for those of you who are affected by this change can have a stronger appreciation for why we're making it. We ask for your understanding and believe that with these changes we can continue to build a better game for everyone.
Thank YOU. That's one of the bravest things you guys have ever done and it's finally justified and correct, I'm sure you'll have more valid information out of the forum community (that, let's face it, out of the entire game's population MORE likely to have used those sets) and thus make the game better.
Comments
I own all the "problematic" sets except the SW one, but haven't actually used them in new content because I never had the guild boons to feel comfortable wearing them.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
While buffs and debuffs should be a legitimate and enjoyable part of the game, it shouldn't provide so much benefits. It's just way too good. So, I do hope it's the very first step of an entire overhaul of how damage is calculated and applied to monsters, along with a serious overhaul of endgame reward drops and drop rates to match the changes accordingly. Both have to happen at the same time, I hope it's not something we, players, have to fight for once you address the buffs and debuffs issues.
Just a thought, but it would be good to do something to prevent people with 'insider knowledge' from ripping off those who don't know about the change.
On another note, @asterdahl, considering I was in the groups clocking those times, I think I can also fairly confidently say that Commander's Strike is more overpowered than both bonuses combined. When we took off the sets, we lost a small amount of time, when our gf stopped using CS, we lost 3-4 minutes.
You would also go a long way towards addressing balance if buffs were no longer multiplicative with each other and instead added. The same is true for debuffs, only you should change them so they all add with each other and there are not 2 separate categories.
PS - That's a soda he's drinking, btw.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Any info on when Xbox will see this nerf? Just wondering if it will be with the Sea of Moving Ice update, or before.
I'm personally unaffected by the mod 5 sets being removed- I own the sets but I don't often run them on my PCs. A bigger concern of mine is the degrading nature of the armor being offered in SKT campaign. I don't see a reason to undergo a painfully long grind for this content if I'm only going to have the rug swept out from under me when in the future the requirements for the EF resistance are lifted for rewards that aren't any better than a t2 dungeon loot. I do not want gear that I constantly have to feed. I have alts and I play this game for fun, not as a job.
Are you going to have 'Empowered' gear that we have to craft/grind for pieces of as a new gear model going forward? I can tell you that even if you removed the gear bonuses from mod 5 gear I still don't find the new SKT gear interesting if it degrades or requires me to farm it with RNG in mind. I much prefer gear that once I grind for it or purchase it from a vendor it's the gear I have on and I no longer have to worry about it.
Take VB infusion off the gear for FBI or remove the EF resist requirement. One or the other. The gates are simply too much for too little reward when the armor is found broken and in pieces anyway.
If you're serious about increasing the reward.. I would like to know more about what these plans are and I'm very curious about it. I have yet to run FBI on live server since I don't have the will or the patience to grind out more HEs than I already have looking for boots that I've not seen at all and the gear grind doesn't seem necessary for any of the other content I run on a regular basis.
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I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
BUT
These sets are a symbol of a great power gap. Most people don't understand how they work, but they see them on "overpowered" players and assume that's where the power is coming from. If this removal can help draw attention to the real sources of imbalance, I'm all for it. As has been mentioned, losing these sets doesn't really nerf any of my builds significantly (MoF CW loses the most, but it's still not overly significant).
FURTHERMORE
As mentioned above, I truly hope that this is the first step towards bringing some of the most broken mechanics in line. Removing these sets is probably a necessary first step towards capturing more accurate performance data. Again, I fully believe they are not as impactful as claimed, but they introduce enough confusion in the data that their removal is warranted even for that reason alone.
HOWEVER
I'm not optimistic. I think this is likely a bandaid to quiet some of the loudest voices whining about imbalance in the game. The devs haven't demonstrated a willingness or ability to take a serious approach to balancing the game (every change brings more imbalance than before). Sure, they'll collect some data. Maybe. And maybe they'll balance some stuff with it. Eventually.
IN SUMMARY
The decision to remove the mod5 sets is a symbolic one, not a real fix to the underlying issues. Maybe it will help expose the underlying issues. Given the recent track record with "balancing" this game so far (especially recent changes), it might make sense to remove these sets if only to try to make things a tiny bit easier for the devs to handle. They need all the help they can scrape together.
- giving incentives to acquire new gear. Rewards are important to keep us engaged on the long run.
- following the design rules for post mod 6 gear. They have a designer's handbook to follow. There are many good reasons to have one. Like not breaking the game entirely (yes it could absolutely be far worse than it is).
In the meantime he also clearly acknowledges that buffs and debuffs are an issue and are used to greatly trivialize content. These sets are of course the tip of the iceberg. It's what gets the most attention from players, because they're a cause for major social issues within the game - i've explained that somewhere - but it doesn't mean that the risk/rewards balance wasn't completely off when using these sets anyway.
I also pushed hard against these sets, not because they're OP but because they're perceived as such, and frankly I'm tired of being expected to play with 50k hit points in group content, it's as simple as that. Again, the social issues it causes went far beyond the little cheesing aspect they provided. As a DC i was totally expected to run that old HAMSTER and I had to build my entire character around this. Needless to say, this was extremely frustrating as I was lacking a critical resources others had access to: hit points. Because I'm an idiot who likes pleasing the players he plays with, so I sucked it up and used the old HAMSTER. I'm glad this is over now.
We all know these sets are not the biggest offenders. Anyone who went to elementary school can understand that when stuff multiplies it gets ugly fast, like buffs do. I'm pretty sure the devs are aware of that. It's, however, most likely not the best time to start talking about this as the designers may not be completely ready to share the details on possible fixes with us. What if they're still discussing solutions?
Again, this shows that they do understand that they're aware of the tremendous cheesing buffs and debuffs stacking offer, but it's not the right thread to discuss that as cryptic may still not have picked a definitive answer on that matter. All we can do is raising awareness so that it stays very high on the list of priorities.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Not that it matters, it's just funny given how much grief we give players for necro'ing threads...
"Our queue data is being skewed by the existence of these sets. Despite claims to the contrary, data shows that the fastest groups completing Fangbreaker are in fact running these sets. Currently our fastest recorded time in Fangbreaker is 16 minutes and 37 seconds. This is exceptionally below our average and median runtimes. As you may be able to guess the cleric in that group was running High Prophet while the wizard was running High Vizier."
If the developers allow 'broken' items to stay in the game for excessive periods of time (see Lostmauth), it would be fair in my estimation to offer an exchange. These sets should have been appropriately adjusted when mod 6 was relased, but that did not happen.
Bring back worty loots like in mod5. We love challenging contents ALONG with rewarding loots!
Your HP/HV just took longer to get to the pile. So, no, there shouldn't be any sort of 'reward' for using a broken set. You chose to roll the dice and use outdated gear, at great cost. Others chose to grind out new stuff. Don't blame us for your financial missteps, or expect to be rewarded for it.
Perhaps we should be able to trade our mod5 gear for "approved" gear sets? hahaha turn in your HV for a dusk or drowcraft. Just kidding though, clearly they're seeking to punish players for abusing these horrible sets that they left in game, and will be offering no compensation.
Nearly all DPS classes used the Lostmauth set bonus because it was BiS.
Nearly all classes use mod 5 set bonuses because they are BiS.
The Lostmauth bug was not addressed for an extended period of time and the devs kindly offered a fair exchange. Awesome move if you ask me.
The mod 5 set bonuses have been around since... mod 5. Their effectiveness has not been addressed until now, mod 10.5. That's 4.5 mods later. The gear still BiS (and rare), which is why the price tag is so high.
Therefore, getting back to my original comment, a generous salvage value is fair and should not adversely affect any platform's economy.
Obviously this issue has remained stagnant for a long time so I can understand those who are skeptical of impending changes. All I can say is: please continue to watch for future adjustments and continue to provide feedback. It's very valuable to us. As others have pointed out, this change is already on Reddit. We have some great community members who will make sure this information gets out there. I posted this where I felt it was most appropriate to discuss. I wanted to wait until the preview forums were active again with the upcoming module. That being said, we felt this did not really deserve its own blog post as this change actually only affects a fairly limited number of players. I'd rather communicate with you all more directly through the forums in this case. As others have pointed out, those with the sets have already gotten a tremendous amount of use out of them, including substantially reduced farming times which lead directly to profit. This is a different case than Lostmauth due to refinement investment and other factors. Equipment was never meant to last this long so we're not currently looking to implement any sort of compensation.
As I mentioned above I wouldn't consider this a major update given the fact that these are items only a limited number of players have and that they have been intentionally unavailable for nearly 2 years. However, I did dig back a few pages to this thread because I felt like it was better for this post to be in context of the discussion.
Generally if a new thread is started here on the preview forums by a dev, it's as a feedback thread for a new feature. I did not want to cause any confusion or divert too much attention for most players from providing feedback on the upcoming module.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance