Removal of Legacy Set Bonuses

be3lzebub2

Now that we are finally getting to some balance, any plans on HP and KC sets? If you don't believe how strong these two sets are just check AH and their prices.

It won't matter how many more mods come with new gears, they will never outclass these two sets for GF and DC and the only way to obtain these is to have played a few years ago.

eion311

Let me get this straight, so because you didn't play years ago when these armor sets dropped you'd like them nerfed? As you mentioned you can still obtain the HP, KC, FI sets in the AH.

oliboyph

Have to agree with OP. If we're nerfing ITF the way it is now, we also have to remove these items that make the game "too easy".

ghoulz66

oliboyph said:

Have to agree with OP. If we're nerfing ITF the way it is now, we also have to remove these items that make the game "too easy".

The HP bonus is as powerful as a 200% damage increase...?

The HP set has a risk/reward factor.

oliboyph

ghoulz66 said:

oliboyph said:

Have to agree with OP. If we're nerfing ITF the way it is now, we also have to remove these items that make the game "too easy".

The HP bonus is as powerful as a 200% damage increase...?

The HP set has a risk/reward factor.

No, maybe 150%. If you have someone with HP set you can down Orcus in 20 seconds, no GF. I mean, is this where we draw the line? If there's a risk/reward factor? All DC needs to do is stay back and let the debuffs happen.

I understand if this game's direction is to keep those old sets around, but I doubt new player will take kindly to knowing that the only way for them to get sets that allow fast runs is to pry them off the hands of old players... just saying.

ghoulz66

oliboyph said:

ghoulz66 said:

oliboyph said:

Have to agree with OP. If we're nerfing ITF the way it is now, we also have to remove these items that make the game "too easy".

The HP bonus is as powerful as a 200% damage increase...?

The HP set has a risk/reward factor.

No, maybe 150%. If you have someone with HP set you can down Orcus in 20 seconds, no GF. I mean, is this where we draw the line? If there's a risk/reward factor? All DC needs to do is stay back and let the debuffs happen.

I understand if this game's direction is to keep those old sets around, but I doubt new player will take kindly to knowing that the only way for them to get sets that allow fast runs is to pry them off the hands of old players... just saying.

HP buff is not that large.

meirami

Goodness. "Players are selling an old item at a price I don't agree with! It must be OP."

The AH price is mostly based on rarity since those items were removed with mod6 and GF and DC were (are?) much less popular to play than CW, for example. At least the sets are still available in the auction house, so there is nothing stopping a person interested in acquiring them doing so in a way that is much less tedious than repeating the same dungeon 50+ times hoping to get the missing glove/helm/whatever. If they were game changers, would there be any pieces left anywhere? Hardly, although I'm sure that the people trying to sell those old sets are rubbing their hands with glee each time somebody starts a thread like this. That said, I would like to give a small shoutout to High Vizier. Let's get those prices up, too.

I think anybody who managed to get those sets the old, hard way deserves to have them, as it's the perk of being a loyal, old customer.

krymkac

Oh nice again this nerf HAMSTER. How about introducing the new sets actually worth using? Not another 10% dr again the mobs y can see in 1 zone or + 2k hp nonsense but real useful bonuses. That ppl would actually use. And do some real sw rework so they would be good again outside sh dragon runs & "puppet + me as a sidekick" build? And the content that requires smth more than raw dps.

P.S. hp set -10% dr per stack, stacks 3 times. 30% debuff. cw high vizier - same 30%/ knigt captain only provides some minor power boost. 150-200% dmg boost right. the dmg output y see is the result of feat/encounters firstly, sets secondly not the other way around.

thefabricant

HP is 30% in the absolute best circumstances.

ghoulz66

If anything is pushing it, it's only the SW's fabled set. Anything that works based on % HP without any sort of cap.

be3lzebub2

thefabricant said:

HP is 30% in the absolute best circumstances.

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

meirami said:

Goodness. "Players are selling an old item at a price I don't agree with! It must be OP."

The AH price is mostly based on rarity since those items were removed with mod6 and GF and DC were (are?) much less popular to play than CW, for example. At least the sets are still available in the auction house, so there is nothing stopping a person interested in acquiring them doing so in a way that is much less tedious than repeating the same dungeon 50+ times hoping to get the missing glove/helm/whatever. If they were game changers, would there be any pieces left anywhere? Hardly, although I'm sure that the people trying to sell those old sets are rubbing their hands with glee each time somebody starts a thread like this. That said, I would like to give a small shoutout to High Vizier. Let's get those prices up, too.

I think anybody who managed to get those sets the old, hard way deserves to have them, as it's the perk of being a loyal, old customer.

I think you forget that there are supposed to be two sides to that equation. It's not enough for it to be rare, the demand should also be very high. Here's the thing, why is the demand so high for that item? It's because it's quite strong. I am just pointing out that this is another point of contention for balance, after all everyone seems to be saying that ITF is making content too easy, why all of a sudden such violent reaction to something we know makes things easy here too? I know HP set is strong and I'm still relatively new, how come the vets don't know this?

oliboyph

meirami said:

At least the sets are still available in the auction house, so there is nothing stopping a person interested in acquiring them doing so in a way that is much less tedious than repeating the same dungeon 50+ times hoping to get the missing glove/helm/whatever.

I wouldn't mind having the dungeon to run 50 times, better than saving 40M for KC set. Heck i'd run it 1k times if needed.

ghoulz66

be3lzebub2 said:

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

.....

You don't play a DC apparently because you seem to have no idea the DC has debuffs from the righteous tree and buff/debuffs from encounters/dailies. Even without the set DCs can buff the party's DPS by a good amount.

be3lzebub2

ghoulz66 said:

be3lzebub2 said:

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

.....

You don't play a DC apparently because you seem to have no idea the DC has debuffs from the righteous tree and buff/debuffs from encounters/dailies. Even without the set DCs can buff the party's DPS by a good amount.

Then why is there such a big disparity between regular righteous and DC with HP? We don't have to look at ilvl since HP set ilvl is low, but still the experience between the two is so different.

Don't you think it's strange that we've gone through so many mods and those sets are still preferred? I mean the evidence is right there. If they re introduce those sets, i'm sure that's what everyone will use.

thefabricant

be3lzebub2 said:

thefabricant said:

HP is 30% in the absolute best circumstances.

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

meirami said:

Goodness. "Players are selling an old item at a price I don't agree with! It must be OP."

The AH price is mostly based on rarity since those items were removed with mod6 and GF and DC were (are?) much less popular to play than CW, for example. At least the sets are still available in the auction house, so there is nothing stopping a person interested in acquiring them doing so in a way that is much less tedious than repeating the same dungeon 50+ times hoping to get the missing glove/helm/whatever. If they were game changers, would there be any pieces left anywhere? Hardly, although I'm sure that the people trying to sell those old sets are rubbing their hands with glee each time somebody starts a thread like this. That said, I would like to give a small shoutout to High Vizier. Let's get those prices up, too.

I think anybody who managed to get those sets the old, hard way deserves to have them, as it's the perk of being a loyal, old customer.

I think you forget that there are supposed to be two sides to that equation. It's not enough for it to be rare, the demand should also be very high. Here's the thing, why is the demand so high for that item? It's because it's quite strong. I am just pointing out that this is another point of contention for balance, after all everyone seems to be saying that ITF is making content too easy, why all of a sudden such violent reaction to something we know makes things easy here too? I know HP set is strong and I'm still relatively new, how come the vets don't know this?

At this stage, there isn't really anything impressive about downing lostmauth before the first phase ends. Pretty much anyone can do it. Furthermore, I can rather easily prove that the high prophet set is a debuff that increases your damage by at most 30%.

Here:



Context: (so you can check I was actually checking the high prophet set)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBHHIj42u4

and ACT: (read the effectiveness column)



This has all been known for a very, very long time.

Anything else you want?

be3lzebub2

thefabricant said:

be3lzebub2 said:

thefabricant said:

HP is 30% in the absolute best circumstances.

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

meirami said:

Goodness. "Players are selling an old item at a price I don't agree with! It must be OP."

The AH price is mostly based on rarity since those items were removed with mod6 and GF and DC were (are?) much less popular to play than CW, for example. At least the sets are still available in the auction house, so there is nothing stopping a person interested in acquiring them doing so in a way that is much less tedious than repeating the same dungeon 50+ times hoping to get the missing glove/helm/whatever. If they were game changers, would there be any pieces left anywhere? Hardly, although I'm sure that the people trying to sell those old sets are rubbing their hands with glee each time somebody starts a thread like this. That said, I would like to give a small shoutout to High Vizier. Let's get those prices up, too.

I think anybody who managed to get those sets the old, hard way deserves to have them, as it's the perk of being a loyal, old customer.

I think you forget that there are supposed to be two sides to that equation. It's not enough for it to be rare, the demand should also be very high. Here's the thing, why is the demand so high for that item? It's because it's quite strong. I am just pointing out that this is another point of contention for balance, after all everyone seems to be saying that ITF is making content too easy, why all of a sudden such violent reaction to something we know makes things easy here too? I know HP set is strong and I'm still relatively new, how come the vets don't know this?

At this stage, there isn't really anything impressive about downing lostmauth before the first phase ends. Pretty much anyone can do it. Furthermore, I can rather easily prove that the high prophet set is a debuff that increases your damage by at most 30%.

Here:



Context: (so you can check I was actually checking the high prophet set)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBHHIj42u4

and ACT: (read the effectiveness column)



This has all been known for a very, very long time.

Anything else you want?

Ok, fine, 30% damage increase it is then, you are right. So an armor's passive ability is now stronger than ITF, plus it allows DC to cast all the other debuffs he has. Any other armor (outside of the 3 old sets that are being pointed out here) that comes close to it? Still not OP at mod 10?

BTW this is 30% damage increase above all buffs? Since it's not stacked on the same end as the damage source. Am I right?

thefabricant

be3lzebub2 said:

thefabricant said:

be3lzebub2 said:

thefabricant said:

HP is 30% in the absolute best circumstances.

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

meirami said:

Goodness. "Players are selling an old item at a price I don't agree with! It must be OP."

The AH price is mostly based on rarity since those items were removed with mod6 and GF and DC were (are?) much less popular to play than CW, for example. At least the sets are still available in the auction house, so there is nothing stopping a person interested in acquiring them doing so in a way that is much less tedious than repeating the same dungeon 50+ times hoping to get the missing glove/helm/whatever. If they were game changers, would there be any pieces left anywhere? Hardly, although I'm sure that the people trying to sell those old sets are rubbing their hands with glee each time somebody starts a thread like this. That said, I would like to give a small shoutout to High Vizier. Let's get those prices up, too.

I think anybody who managed to get those sets the old, hard way deserves to have them, as it's the perk of being a loyal, old customer.

I think you forget that there are supposed to be two sides to that equation. It's not enough for it to be rare, the demand should also be very high. Here's the thing, why is the demand so high for that item? It's because it's quite strong. I am just pointing out that this is another point of contention for balance, after all everyone seems to be saying that ITF is making content too easy, why all of a sudden such violent reaction to something we know makes things easy here too? I know HP set is strong and I'm still relatively new, how come the vets don't know this?

At this stage, there isn't really anything impressive about downing lostmauth before the first phase ends. Pretty much anyone can do it. Furthermore, I can rather easily prove that the high prophet set is a debuff that increases your damage by at most 30%.

Here:



Context: (so you can check I was actually checking the high prophet set)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBHHIj42u4

and ACT: (read the effectiveness column)



This has all been known for a very, very long time.

Anything else you want?

Ok, fine, 30% damage increase it is then, you are right. So an armor's passive ability is now stronger than ITF, plus it allows DC to cast all the other debuffs he has. Any other armor (outside of the 3 old sets that are being pointed out here) that comes close to it? Still not OP at mod 10?

BTW this is 30% damage increase above all buffs? Since it's not stacked on the same end as the damage source. Am I right?

No, its a defense debuff multiplier. All debuffs (effects active ON the target) add but they multiply with all buffs (effects active on you). All buffs add with each other. So you end up with damage*Σ Debuffs*Σ Buffs. Honestly, there are quite a few things stronger than itf, so if your mission is to nerf everything stronger than itf, you also need to nerf break the spirit, hallowed ground, combustive action, swath of destruction, longstrider's shot and a few other things as well.

Do yourself a favour and read that link I posted earlier, it helps to actually understand the mechanics you discussing, before you start asking for nerfs.

romotheone

So if I understand right, the 30% boost wasn't an issue until it became stronger than ITF? Are you the type that pulls everyone down with you? Don't get me wrong, your argument that legacy sets are too strong is right, but you are arguing for the wrong reasons.

be3lzebub2

romotheone said:

So if I understand right, the 30% boost wasn't an issue until it became stronger than ITF? Are you the type that pulls everyone down with you? Don't get me wrong, your argument that legacy sets are too strong is right, but you are arguing for the wrong reasons.

No not at all, btw let me just clarify things, I'm HR. Yes I agree with ITF nerf, I think it's good. But I also believe that the devs have overlooked something else. Anyway I don't like to post in these forums, I think I'll retire from this discussion. But please, I hope everyone tries to look at it from an objective point of view.

They are so strong that they draw attention, they can't be obtained by new players. We need player to keep this game intact. If this games go kaput, you don't get to take your characters home with you. That is all, thanks everyone, sorry if I offend.

micky1p00

I have the sets, and for all I care, the set bonus can be removed from the game. But:

Please enough with the "nerf other classes" "nerf things I don't have" the entire forum full of nerf all things. While when someone dares to suggest that we need harder content there is an outcry...

Also price is not an indicator of OP, or if judging by that half of the old transmutes should have crazy buff debuf.
Price is an indicator of demand and supply, and that is for actual sales, not listings, with VIP is can list an 1" pole for 10 mil, doesn't mean anyone will by it or that it's useful.

And finally, the sets have a 'small' trade off, called no HP, playing with 40k HP is not always as easy as it sounds. You can reffer to all the posts about things too hard when people have 100k HP.
So cutting your HP for about 60% for 30% damage buff suddenly sounds rather reasonable.

Small side note

thefabricant said:

So you end up with damage*Σ Debuffs*Σ Buffs.

I believe it should be: damage * Πbuffs * Πdebuffs or the numbers would have been much lower.

ghoulz66

be3lzebub2 said:

ghoulz66 said:

be3lzebub2 said:

30% defense reduction does not necessarily mean 30% damage increase, I've run so many times with DC with HP set and my tank is always OP because he's my friend, and my damage increases is always very large. We can down Lostmauth before the first phase ends.

.....

You don't play a DC apparently because you seem to have no idea the DC has debuffs from the righteous tree and buff/debuffs from encounters/dailies. Even without the set DCs can buff the party's DPS by a good amount.

Then why is there such a big disparity between regular righteous and DC with HP? We don't have to look at ilvl since HP set ilvl is low, but still the experience between the two is so different.

Don't you think it's strange that we've gone through so many mods and those sets are still preferred? I mean the evidence is right there. If they re introduce those sets, i'm sure that's what everyone will use.

I don't think it's strange. People use it because it adds a little extra DPS to the group. If people can survive while wearing them then kudos to them.

thefabricant

micky1p00 said:

I have the sets, and for all I care, the set bonus can be removed from the game. But:

Please enough with the "nerf other classes" "nerf things I don't have" the entire forum full of nerf all things. While when someone dares to suggest that we need harder content there is an outcry...

Also price is not an indicator of OP, or if judging by that half of the old transmutes should have crazy buff debuf.
Price is an indicator of demand and supply, and that is for actual sales, not listings, with VIP is can list an 1" pole for 10 mil, doesn't mean anyone will by it or that it's useful.

And finally, the sets have a 'small' trade off, called no HP, playing with 40k HP is not always as easy as it sounds. You can reffer to all the posts about things too hard when people have 100k HP.
So cutting your HP for about 60% for 30% damage buff suddenly sounds rather reasonable.

Small side note

thefabricant said:

So you end up with damage*Σ Debuffs*Σ Buffs.

I believe it should be: damage * Πbuffs * Πdebuffs or the numbers would have been much lower.

@micky1p00 I decided to check it as I trust your opinion and here is what I found: You are right about the buffs, but wrong about the debuffs. It seems we have both learned something here.

Here is a screenshot of testing HV+HP:


The 30% was when only the HP was applied, the 60% was when both was applied. I made sure they were the only buffs and debuffs in the test. I did not video what I was testing and if you want me to i can repeat the same test on some random monster to illustrate and video it, but debuffs are certainly added and not multiplied. (well, at least the 2 in the test definitely are) If they were multiplied, the expected effectiveness would be 169%.

As for buffs, I took the minimum and maximum damage on the tooltip of steal time to check and found the following:

Base: 6186 - 7423
ITF: 8042 - 9650
Chaotic Fury: 8234 - 9880
Chaotic Fury + ITF: 10776 - 12930

Which is what you would expect if they multiplied rather than added. This method is not entirely satisfactory and I would have preferred to have actually done some long term smashing, but it will do for now. I am not certain if it is just those 2 buffs that multiply, or if all buffs multiply, either way, I think at this point, the interactions between all buffs and debuffs should probably be rechecked. I will get to that at some point. What it looks like from testing though, is it is:

Damage* ΣDebuffs* Πbuffs.

jazzfong

High prophet is a set that give your team 30% dps increase at the cost of lower stats and HP. Fortunately, since i played through beta I owned a few HP set across multiple DCs. If you know what we are going to trade and do while wearing high prophet set you will stop QQ. Do you know without healing boons, insignia bonus etc we will die in a pack of mob in less than 2 seconds? I purposely build my DC just to wear high prophet set 24/7, not everyone can just wear it and say he has free 30% dps buff without any trade off. Dont forget this is a T1 60 set while now most people are having T3 70 set (il 140) with 120k hp+.

The current situation is:
1. Newcomer QQ abt these set when they know how strong the buff is, but they are not obtainable anymore since a few mods ago. The demand is high, but supply dried up, resulting in a ridiculously high price in AH per piece of set.
2. The crowd divided into two. One is to farm until they are nearly BIS then they buy it from AH to be better. The other one QQ abt it and wanted to destroy the set becuz they dont have it.

IMO in any situation, the sets will not be destroyed. Some things to take note:
1. The supply dried up and only the old faithful players owned them. It is BoC.
2. One day the power creep will destroy us with the sets becuz we need 200k hp to survive.
3. All of these sets, bear in mind, are only for support classes. Support classes since beta, have a extremely low population, DC was lesser than 10% in a previous survey iirc, so the guys running in these sets, who still stay in game, who didnt salvaged it, who willing to tune their build to use them, who didnt change their main to other new classes, are lesser than 0.1% of current total NW population. Is the population big enough to destroy NW? Nope.

silence1x

Just curious - if you're wearing HV/HP/KC set, are you wearing R11/R12s? Otherwise, how do you get into CN or Edemo? I mean the iLvL can't be high enough unless you have mythic/legendary gear besides the set pieces right?

jazzfong

silence1x said:

Just curious - if you're wearing HV/HP/KC set, are you wearing R11/R12s? Otherwise, how do you get into CN or Edemo? I mean the iLvL can't be high enough unless you have mythic/legendary gear besides the set pieces right?

With full r7s, lesser soulforged and a perf weapon enchant, 2 mythic 1 legendary artifacts, I already over 2.5k il which is the maximum il needed for any content. Since the new content leaked has a higher il gate i will just swap the dirt cheap r7 to r8/r9/r10. IL doesnt help DC much, minimum will do.

thefabricant

The IL on the set is 120 lower than without the set. (thats counting IL loss on all 4 pieces).

urabask

defiantone99 said:

Honestly, I do not think there would be such an uproar if all of the classes had OP sets like these. CW, GF, DC and SW are the only classes to have them, it makes HR, TR and GWF pretty salty considering we worked just as hard for our gear back then. We are told too bad soooo sad by those who have them. But, the current situation leaves new SWs in a lurch and forces new GFs and DCs into a pay or get skipped situation.

Yeah, GWFs would just rush to get into armor that puts them at 40k HP or w/e.

silence1x said:

Just curious - if you're wearing HV/HP/KC set, are you wearing R11/R12s? Otherwise, how do you get into CN or Edemo? I mean the iLvL can't be high enough unless you have mythic/legendary gear besides the set pieces right?

HP is 84 ilvl so even vs 142 ilvl armor you'd only be looking at a 204 ilvl difference.

jazzfong said:

High prophet is a set that give your team 30% dps increase at the cost of lower stats and HP. Fortunately, since i played through beta I owned a few HP set across multiple DCs. If you know what we are going to trade and do while wearing high prophet set you will stop QQ. Do you know without healing boons, insignia bonus etc we will die in a pack of mob in less than 2 seconds? I purposely build my DC just to wear high prophet set 24/7, not everyone can just wear it and say he has free 30% dps buff without any trade off. Dont forget this is a T1 60 set while now most people are having T3 70 set (il 140) with 120k hp+.

The current situation is:
1. Newcomer QQ abt these set when they know how strong the buff is, but they are not obtainable anymore since a few mods ago. The demand is high, but supply dried up, resulting in a ridiculously high price in AH per piece of set.
2. The crowd divided into two. One is to farm until they are nearly BIS then they buy it from AH to be better. The other one QQ abt it and wanted to destroy the set becuz they dont have it.

IMO in any situation, the sets will not be destroyed. Some things to take note:
1. The supply dried up and only the old faithful players owned them. It is BoC.
2. One day the power creep will destroy us with the sets becuz we need 200k hp to survive.
3. All of these sets, bear in mind, are only for support classes. Support classes since beta, have a extremely low population, DC was lesser than 10% in a previous survey iirc, so the guys running in these sets, who still stay in game, who didnt salvaged it, who willing to tune their build to use them, who didnt change their main to other new classes, are lesser than 0.1% of current total NW population. Is the population big enough to destroy NW? Nope.

If it gets to the point that people with the sets are completing content (say T3s) significantly faster than people without them then I think it would be pretty easy for Cryptic to argue that a nerf is necessary.

jumpingmorks

oliboyph said:

Have to agree with OP. If we're nerfing ITF the way it is now, we also have to remove these items that make the game "too easy".

The game will continue to be too easy until they address the root cause, power creep, only way to address this as I see it is cap every stat at 80%, force people to invest in other stats save wasting points in a stat that's already capped and let people use whatever armor/weapons/equipment they want to.