mutjinninjaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 93Arc User
These threads are pointless. The devs stated a LONG time ago that they have NO intention of nerfing these sets. The devs hold them as legacy sets. They said that they won't be nerfing them past their removal from the game because they believe the players that were here for them and worked hard to get them deserve to keep them. It's not like every DC and SW has their legacy sets. These threads make it seem like it's a huge problem when it's not. You rarely see someone with these sets today because many of the beta (or pre mod 6) players have quit already. Please stop crying. It's not happening
Lol. What we have here are a few of the haves who claim content is to easy fighting to keep items the have nots don't have. Btw getting the sets back in the day was not that hard. Stop acting like it was such a grind. Cleric sets were dirt cheap. Hell I had lots of the old sets on all my toons however since they refined for more than the new stuff it all went poor first double ad. The point is that it offers an unfair advantage and needs to go. Period end of discussion. If it wasn't so good, then why do you care if it gets nerfed or removed. ROFLMAO
Oh by here we go again. Why do you lobby to have something taken away from someone that has absolutely no bearing on your play. What a ridiculous waste of time.
Perhaps concentrating on the things that do affect your gameplay directly might be a better use of your time.
Oh by here we go again. Why do you lobby to have something taken away from someone that has absolutely no bearing on your play. What a ridiculous waste of time.
Perhaps concentrating on the things that do affect your gameplay directly might be a better use of your time.
Eh. Now we're at the point where everyone that had a good GF in their guild/party just lost a 100%+ damage buff. I think it's pretty hard to argue at this point that people with these sets get to keep them while everyone else has to deal with Cryptic's new found hatred for buffs.
Ok so lets say they nerf them. Ok great. Next OP set please step forward. The piont is why focus on nerfing when you could be spending your time lobbying for buffs, improvements, fixes, actual items in the Zen store that are worth buying for cash so Cryptic can make some money.
The is so simple minded a topic it quite literally defies logic.
Ok so lets say they nerf them. Ok great. Next OP set please step forward. The piont is why focus on nerfing when you could be spending your time lobbying for buffs, improvements, fixes, actual items in the Zen store that are worth buying for cash so Cryptic can make some money.
The is so simple minded a topic it quite literally defies logic.
Just some regular QQ from some jealous folks without those sets. "That old set is too OP, delete it please devs!!!!" is nothing different from "That character is too OP, delete it please devs!!!". So you think it is legit to destroy our character and we shouldnt defence ourselves when someone weaker wants to destroy us but not improve themselves?
Btw getting the sets back in the day was not that hard. Stop acting like it was such a grind. Cleric sets were dirt cheap.
Not hard i see... Dirt cheap i see... so a few hundred k AD was dirt cheap i see... U are definitely not honest. Just a few sentences here showed your words are totally BS and you are lying to all of us.
Stop acting like you had all those sets but u destroyed it and regretted of it. In the old days we have to run XX times of a single dungeon to get a drop from XX boss and it had to be epic but not rare junk, is one of the useful armor set, is your class AND you successfully winning the roll from others. That is a piece for you, and you have to grind another 3 more pieces to get one full set. Dont forget it is a 45 min dungeon with a low drop rate, not the 12 min CN now with so many drops and chest. I had spent 3 weeks of heavy gaming, trying my best just to get my HP set gauntlets from the dungeon and you say it is easy not grind. Even in the old days, the cleric sets (HP,MH etc) were a few hundred k AD per piece, stop claiming you are one of the old experienced cleric player, you think there are no other cleric players here to expose your lies?
Since apparently you guys won’t stop whining about HP set, I’ll tell you how it actually works: it gets much weaker against mobs with high DR, even if your ArP is capped. Here's an example:
If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have 0% ArP, HP set gives you 1,2% per stack. If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have > 60% ArP, HP set gives you 3% per stack.
It’s still useful in raids, since it gives a small boost to the majority of other debuffs, but it's not what you think. Btw HV set works differently, so don't compare the two sets.
Since apparently you guys won’t stop whining about HP set, I’ll tell you how it actually works: it gets much weaker against mobs with high DR, even if your ArP is capped. Here's an example:
If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have 0% ArP, HP set gives you 1,2% per stack. If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have > 60% ArP, HP set gives you 3% per stack.
It’s still useful in raids, since it gives a small boost to the majority of other debuffs, but it's not what you think. Btw HV set works differently, so don't compare the two sets.
Apart from the plea for folks to stop whining, I think everything you said is incorrect.
The set descriptions are incredibly misleading, but both sets work the same way: 10% inbound dmg buff on enemies, stack-able 3x each (separately). This has been proven time and again by countless folks (and I've verified independently). The way you get stacks varies between the 2 sets, but the dmg mechanic is identical. It's similar to the Sellsword companion 10% dmg buff (which also applies separately).
And the effect is noticeable, especially on a well geared party.
Perhaps it is time to phase out items that are inaccessible and have significant gameplay value. Or make them accessible again... it's not exactly easy to play with lvl60 gear on. I think many folks would benefit ("L2P" so to speak) if they wore a mod5 set for a while.
All that said I have no qualms about wearing either set. I think that they are beneficial but not entirely broken as some suggest. The loss of stats, overload slots, and HP is a noticeable tradeoff, and to some degree you have to design your build to compensate. It's certainly not as out of control as the Fabled set that was mentioned above, which isn't even accessible via AH (because it was BoP)
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Leave the sets as is, if you have one then good luck to you (I didn't keep my legacy sets - ooops).
Less nerfing (no one is happy when they get nerfed) and more creating harder content, please.
@dupeks That's the problem with the DC community: everyone talks, no one tests. Go on preview, use a respec token, stack enough ArP and attack a mob with your at-wills. Can you manage to reach 10% per stack? And I am not the one who says it, he is the one (read section 3.1). It works well when it interacts with other debuffs tho.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Since apparently you guys won’t stop whining about HP set, I’ll tell you how it actually works: it gets much weaker against mobs with high DR, even if your ArP is capped. Here's an example:
If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have 0% ArP, HP set gives you 1,2% per stack. If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have > 60% ArP, HP set gives you 3% per stack.
It’s still useful in raids, since it gives a small boost to the majority of other debuffs, but it's not what you think. Btw HV set works differently, so don't compare the two sets.
Whilst this is true of the high prophet set, it is not true of the high vizier set, which is always 30% assuming your RI>DR.
- A defense debuff is additive with another defense debuff (for example HP+HV) - A defense debuff is multiplicative with a damage reduction debuff (for example HP+Divine Glow) - A damage reduction debuff is additive with another damage reduction debuff (for example Divine Glow and Prophecy of Doom)
I specifically avoided mentioning this because its a case by case analysis.
Also @michela123 it seems kaelac's guide is out of date in some places, because I am 100% sure that buffs are stacking multiplicatively on live and preview, where as his guide states they stack additively. I am in the process of checking everything, but it will take a while.
Yes, that's why I said HV works differently I've noticed aswell that Kaelac "assumed" that buffs are additive, but it wasn't correct, or at least it isn't now. I've checked Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow, Plague Fire, HP set, Ray of Enfeeblement and Terryfing Insight and the debuff "rule" he said was correct in those cases. But yeah, I had to specify that there could be exceptions, sadly I had no time to check everything yet. I'm going off-topic tho, maybe we'll open a new thread about it somewhere else.
EDIT: corrected "addictive" with "additive" XD
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Yes, that's why I said HV works differently I've noticed aswell that Kaelac "assumed" that buffs are additive, but it wasn't correct, or at least it isn't now. I've checked Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow, Plague Fire, HP set, Ray of Enfeeblement and Terryfing Insight and the debuff "rule" he said was correct in those cases. But yeah, I had to specify that there could be exceptions, sadly I had no time to check everything yet. I'm going off-topic tho, maybe we'll open a new thread about it somewhere else.
EDIT: corrected "addictive" with "additive" XD
If you want to help me out with this, I don't mind, its a lot of work lol and it would be nice to be able to share it with someone. Something else I have noticed which is wrong is his tooltips calculation, which still uses the value ~0.008.
It seems that tooltips are calculated more along the lines of: Base_Damage*(1+(Ability Score-10)*0.01)*(0.9+Ability_rank*0.1)*(1+Weapon_Damage*Weapon_Damage_Coefficient)*(1+Power/40000)*ΠBuffs
The weapon damage coefficient for CW seems to be 0.007.
@dupeks That's the problem with the DC community: everyone talks, no one tests. Go on preview, use a respec token, stack enough ArP and attack a mob with your at-wills. Can you manage to reach 10% per stack? And I am not the one who says it, he is the one (read section 3.1). It works well when it interacts with other debuffs tho.
... and I insert foot into mouth. Thank you for setting me straight.
Like you noted, all of my testing on this subject had been done on target dummies with no DR.
Out of curiosity, is there a good resource to look up DR values for mobs? I think I would be interested in helping test / verify interactions but I likely need to bone up on the basics again.
Edit: Reread all of Kaelac's wonderful musings. I think the DR values in there are out of date at this point. I have access to HP and HV sets and would be willing to help test on preview (also receptive to feedback / coaching on how to test effectively). If there are concrete items that I can contribute to checking / verifying please pm.
Post edited by dupeks on
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
@dupeks That's the problem with the DC community: everyone talks, no one tests. Go on preview, use a respec token, stack enough ArP and attack a mob with your at-wills. Can you manage to reach 10% per stack? And I am not the one who says it, he is the one (read section 3.1). It works well when it interacts with other debuffs tho.
BTW, the way you wrote "read section 3.1" makes it look like you quoting the bible or something
@dupeks That's the problem with the DC community: everyone talks, no one tests. Go on preview, use a respec token, stack enough ArP and attack a mob with your at-wills. Can you manage to reach 10% per stack? And I am not the one who says it, he is the one (read section 3.1). It works well when it interacts with other debuffs tho.
... and I insert foot into mouth. Thank you for setting me straight.
Like you noted, all of my testing on this subject had been done on target dummies with no DR.
Out of curiosity, is there a good resource to look up DR values for mobs? I think I would be interested in helping test / verify interactions but I likely need to bone up on the basics again.
Edit: Reread all of Kaelac's wonderful musings. I think the DR values in there are out of date at this point. I have access to HP and HV sets and would be willing to help test on preview (also receptive to feedback / coaching on how to test effectively). If there are concrete items that I can contribute to checking / verifying please pm.
Also, at one point there was a cross-reference in the Foundry forum listing the defense resistances for all the mobs available in the Foundry (unfortunately, don't remember where).
Ok then, since people want to remove armors that players have either worked hard to get as drops or spent AD on (possibly millions) how about you look at it this way. How pissed would you be if they decided to remove Dragonflight gear? Don't think about the set bonuses just think of the work put in to it. I know I would be pissed if they took away my gear because players kept crying about it. Anyone arguing it should be taken away is a moron, you're asking devs to remove items that are not obtained via cheating and have been in the game for a long time. On top of that, now that they are rare and are only in the hands of old players or those who managed to get their hands on an old set you want them nerfed if they don't remove it? Do you not realize how insanely petty that is in a mostly team game?
Seriously it doesn't hurt you at all except in PVP, and if this is all a PVE vs PVP issue how about banning old sets from PVP. Removing things from player inventories is plain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and if they start this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I hope at some point they stop by your account and take things from you. I don't have any of the sets discussed but I know I would be incredibly upset if my gear just vanished.
Ok then, since people want to remove armors that players have either worked hard to get as drops or spent AD on (possibly millions) how about you look at it this way. How pissed would you be if they decided to remove Dragonflight gear? Don't think about the set bonuses just think of the work put in to it. I know I would be pissed if they took away my gear because players kept crying about it. Anyone arguing it should be taken away is a moron, you're asking devs to remove items that are not obtained via cheating and have been in the game for a long time. On top of that, now that they are rare and are only in the hands of old players or those who managed to get their hands on an old set you want them nerfed if they don't remove it? Do you not realize how insanely petty that is in a mostly team game?
Seriously it doesn't hurt you at all except in PVP, and if this is all a PVE vs PVP issue how about banning old sets from PVP. Removing things from player inventories is plain **** and if they start this **** I hope at some point they stop by your account and take things from you. I don't have any of the sets discussed but I know I would be incredibly upset if my gear just vanished.
If we're going on the nerf train it has to hit everyone or there really isn't a point in the devs attempting to de-trivialize epic content.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
All those sets besides the SW set should just be left alone. We don't need to royally screw over people who forked over millions to complete them.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Those sets were free from Tiamat and Heralds Mod 5. They did not cost millions. I paid millions for my HRs and TRs GG armor sets though, guess I am just out of luck cuz they have lousy bonuses.
Me nether, but I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Losing millions isn't good....
Well maybe I should just start calling for nerfs to legendary mounts. I dont have one and cant seem to get one yet many are running around with multiples. Lol
Comments
Perhaps concentrating on the things that do affect your gameplay directly might be a better use of your time.
The is so simple minded a topic it quite literally defies logic.
"That old set is too OP, delete it please devs!!!!" is nothing different from "That character is too OP, delete it please devs!!!". So you think it is legit to destroy our character and we shouldnt defence ourselves when someone weaker wants to destroy us but not improve themselves? Not hard i see... Dirt cheap i see... so a few hundred k AD was dirt cheap i see... U are definitely not honest. Just a few sentences here showed your words are totally BS and you are lying to all of us.
Stop acting like you had all those sets but u destroyed it and regretted of it. In the old days we have to run XX times of a single dungeon to get a drop from XX boss and it had to be epic but not rare junk, is one of the useful armor set, is your class AND you successfully winning the roll from others. That is a piece for you, and you have to grind another 3 more pieces to get one full set. Dont forget it is a 45 min dungeon with a low drop rate, not the 12 min CN now with so many drops and chest. I had spent 3 weeks of heavy gaming, trying my best just to get my HP set gauntlets from the dungeon and you say it is easy not grind. Even in the old days, the cleric sets (HP,MH etc) were a few hundred k AD per piece, stop claiming you are one of the old experienced cleric player, you think there are no other cleric players here to expose your lies?
If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have 0% ArP, HP set gives you 1,2% per stack.
If you fight a boss with 60% DR and you have > 60% ArP, HP set gives you 3% per stack.
It’s still useful in raids, since it gives a small boost to the majority of other debuffs, but it's not what you think.
Btw HV set works differently, so don't compare the two sets.
The set descriptions are incredibly misleading, but both sets work the same way: 10% inbound dmg buff on enemies, stack-able 3x each (separately). This has been proven time and again by countless folks (and I've verified independently). The way you get stacks varies between the 2 sets, but the dmg mechanic is identical. It's similar to the Sellsword companion 10% dmg buff (which also applies separately).
And the effect is noticeable, especially on a well geared party.
Perhaps it is time to phase out items that are inaccessible and have significant gameplay value. Or make them accessible again... it's not exactly easy to play with lvl60 gear on. I think many folks would benefit ("L2P" so to speak) if they wore a mod5 set for a while.
All that said I have no qualms about wearing either set. I think that they are beneficial but not entirely broken as some suggest. The loss of stats, overload slots, and HP is a noticeable tradeoff, and to some degree you have to design your build to compensate. It's certainly not as out of control as the Fabled set that was mentioned above, which isn't even accessible via AH (because it was BoP)
Less nerfing (no one is happy when they get nerfed) and more creating harder content, please.
That's the problem with the DC community: everyone talks, no one tests. Go on preview, use a respec token, stack enough ArP and attack a mob with your at-wills. Can you manage to reach 10% per stack?
And I am not the one who says it, he is the one (read section 3.1). It works well when it interacts with other debuffs tho.
I specifically avoided mentioning this because its a case by case analysis.
Also @michela123 it seems kaelac's guide is out of date in some places, because I am 100% sure that buffs are stacking multiplicatively on live and preview, where as his guide states they stack additively. I am in the process of checking everything, but it will take a while.
Let me be clear. I think what they are proposing to do to ITF is an absolute travesty.
I dont want any nerfs. I want only buffs and more difficult and challenging content. Pissing off your customer base intentionally = mind blown to me.
So please, the next time you are advocating for nerfs just think.
Please.
I've noticed aswell that Kaelac "assumed" that buffs are additive, but it wasn't correct, or at least it isn't now. I've checked Prophecy of Doom, Divine Glow, Plague Fire, HP set, Ray of Enfeeblement and Terryfing Insight and the debuff "rule" he said was correct in those cases. But yeah, I had to specify that there could be exceptions, sadly I had no time to check everything yet.
I'm going off-topic tho, maybe we'll open a new thread about it somewhere else.
EDIT: corrected "addictive" with "additive" XD
It seems that tooltips are calculated more along the lines of:
Base_Damage*(1+(Ability Score-10)*0.01)*(0.9+Ability_rank*0.1)*(1+Weapon_Damage*Weapon_Damage_Coefficient)*(1+Power/40000)*ΠBuffs
The weapon damage coefficient for CW seems to be 0.007.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Ah ah, true that!
Like you noted, all of my testing on this subject had been done on target dummies with no DR.
Out of curiosity, is there a good resource to look up DR values for mobs? I think I would be interested in helping test / verify interactions but I likely need to bone up on the basics again.
Edit: Reread all of Kaelac's wonderful musings. I think the DR values in there are out of date at this point. I have access to HP and HV sets and would be willing to help test on preview (also receptive to feedback / coaching on how to test effectively). If there are concrete items that I can contribute to checking / verifying please pm.
For monster DR's see this article: whats-the-amount-of-arpen-needed-for-the-campaign-maps by Lazaroth666.
Also, at one point there was a cross-reference in the Foundry forum listing the defense resistances for all the mobs available in the Foundry (unfortunately, don't remember where).
Seriously it doesn't hurt you at all except in PVP, and if this is all a PVE vs PVP issue how about banning old sets from PVP. Removing things from player inventories is plain <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and if they start this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I hope at some point they stop by your account and take things from you. I don't have any of the sets discussed but I know I would be incredibly upset if my gear just vanished.