Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
A rant is a rant. And fanaticism is fanaticism.
It's no wonder the dwindling level of actors/filmakers and gamemakers are no longer interacting with 'fans'.
People can only take so much vitriol, before they stop interacting.
I think once people start realising nobody 'owes' you anything. The less offended they will be.
You have a free game. You have free ships. You have 'A class' actors from the actual Star Trek Franchise, and all of the missions/content, offered to you, completely free.
What exactly is there to be angry about. If it is free?
Yup...it's the fans fault the show is performing terribly! Damn fans...how could they ruin the show?
Its the people who have no control over the show and nothing to do with horrible leadership and poor writing! Bad fans...bad bad fans!
Thanks for the laugh!
Oh you are very welcome. No doubt your enormous feelings of self entitlement, have earned you a laugh.
Ad hominem attacks almost always mean the attacker has run out of valid arguments, so you might want to rethink your strategy if you don't want people thinking your are out of ideas, especially after trying the diversion about a free game. The subject was the detached nacelles in DSC and what people thought about them, not anything to do with STO.
Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
A rant is a rant. And fanaticism is fanaticism.
It's no wonder the dwindling level of actors/filmakers and gamemakers are no longer interacting with 'fans'.
People can only take so much vitriol, before they stop interacting.
I think once people start realising nobody 'owes' you anything. The less offended they will be.
You have a free game. You have free ships. You have 'A class' actors from the actual Star Trek Franchise, and all of the missions/content, offered to you, completely free.
What exactly is there to be angry about. If it is free?
Yup...it's the fans fault the show is performing terribly! Damn fans...how could they ruin the show?
Its the people who have no control over the show and nothing to do with horrible leadership and poor writing! Bad fans...bad bad fans!
Thanks for the laugh!
Oh you are very welcome. No doubt your enormous feelings of self entitlement, have earned you a laugh.
Ad hominem attacks almost always mean the attacker has run out of valid arguments, so you might want to rethink your strategy, especially after trying the diversion about a free game. The subject was the detached nacelles in DSC and what people thought about them, not anything to do with STO.
The subject has varied accorss many topics since the initial post. Including topics such as the various Trek' franchises (including writing ability/direction).
In addition to this I referenced my response to another post the person I was replying to (take note: not YOU) in regard to (what I perceive) to be a very self entitled opinion of what the game should give them.
I note that you are not a moderator, so perhaps you should stop trying to be one? If a moderator regards my comments as an Ad hominem attack I shall no doubt be reprimanded, and respect thier decision. Your 'hall monitoring' is not needed here, thank you.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
(Emphasis added.)
True, but as explained by various people: that's a big 'if'. Power failures of such magnitude aren't that easy to cause. Or else it'd be very easy to blow up or permanently disable an entire ship cause there are many systems that rely on power. Like warp containment or life support - which are still used despite their dependency on energy systems. Indeed, such energy systems were usually shown to be of major importance when it comes to buffing physical things like weapons (reroute power to X).
In fact, when full power disabling did happen (like when the Defiant encountered Breen dissipators) it was a huge thing, sufficiently so to be a major plot element. Which shows that it doesn't happen normally and that it's very exceptional for such a thing to happen. Other power based systems like shields weren't disabled that easily either.
And, again, a minor technical failure due to enemy weapon fire hitting the hull (like in Generations with the cooling leak) showed that no matter how much duranium and structural integrity a ship had, it would still cause the loss of the entire ship. Or at least half of it for ship classes that could split themselves in parts.
To make a long message short:
'If power is disabled' is, by itself, a valid concern. But many instances in various shows indicate that
1. Power isn't disable that easily.
2. Even if it were, Starfleet was willing to heavily depend on power and energy nonetheless.
3. Physical / metallic components weren't all that reliable either - indeed, they usually heavily depended on power and energy.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
In Nemesis, Geordi mentions that warp drive was disabled by the Scimitar's first shot. We can also see that the forcefield around the warp core is easily disabled early on in the fight.
Of course, the Scimitar was an exceptionally powerful ship. But this (including the way Geordi mentions the fact it was so easily disabled in this case) once more shows that simply disabling or disturbing power based systems isn't really that easy. Basically, it's the exception that proves the rule. Apparently the force field would have been an useful addition under normal circumstances. So that proves that power based defences work, in general.
That same movie also reminds us how the disabling of shields can easily allow boarding parties to enter the ship. So in that case too, physical barriers aren't necessarily better - or even of any importance.
It's fine if people don't want to buy into easy explanations or if they consider 'it's just highly advanced tech' too easy an explanation. But let's not pretend that physical barriers and hull were that much more important or power based systems not deemed reliable enough for ships to heavily depend on it. Plenty of examples from older shows suggest otherwise, making it not that strange for future ships to rely on them to keep the ship together. That's basically always been the case.
Lastly, I'm not a huge Disco fan. But I don't see the problem with detached components. It has little to nothing to do with Discovery's show writers.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Many times, main power goes out, the warp core is offline...we get that with TNG and a quantum filament, VOY and the Void's aliens' dampening field, etc. Unless under those circumstances, detached nacelles draw back into the ship or physical struts extend out to grab onto them...then they're flying off into space. When the power is off, that's your lot...so what's the contingency? When Voyager ejected its warp core in "Day Of Honor", they were using the impulse reactors to get things back up and running. If you have detached nacelles and they DETACH...can you grab onto them, you can't do without them, but what do you do and why still box yourself into that corner?
Although I am one of those ppl buying into the whole "It is just to show advanced tech" spiel, take those prison forcefields we always see. Those make no sense. Someone fires a torpedo at your ship, power gets disabled -- if even for a brief moment -- and prisoner walks out of their cell. Nothing beats a solid door and lock. So, a detached nacelle, floating about, held by magnetism (or any form of power source, really) makes equally little sense, and for the same reason.
Having said that, I still maintain it's not 'floating' -- that's just ppl unwilling to think outside the box. Rather, like the infamous Tardis example -- or the small craft in ST:Enterprise -- I am okay with accepting future tech can do stuff with space/dimensions we simply are not capable of yet (let alone understand).
Although I am one of those ppl buying into the whole "It is just to show advanced tech" spiel, take those prison forcefields we always see. Those make no sense. Someone fires a torpedo at your ship, power gets disabled -- if even for a brief moment -- and prisoner walks out of their cell. Nothing beats a solid door and lock. So, a detached nacelle, floating about, held by magnetism (or any form of power source, really) makes equally little sense, and for the same reason.
Having said that, I still maintain it's not 'floating' -- that's just ppl unwilling to think outside the box. Rather, like the infamous Tardis example -- or the small craft in ST:Enterprise -- I am okay with accepting future tech can do stuff with space/dimensions we simply are not capable of yet (let alone understand).
In DS9, we saw that (although it was just to contain him, because Dukat didn't trust him) Odo's force field ran independently. I'd like to assume that force fields in brigs etc, ran on separate power or had backups.
When you're living in a time of transparent illuminum though, it does make you wonder why you don't just have a big door.
I tell you though...I'm find with Enterprise's TARDIS rip-off and manipulating time and space, but I just find detached nacelles not a technological advancement, not a principal and to genuine just be a producer driven idea and opportunity to use more CGI and to be "cool".
Many times, main power goes out, the warp core is offline...we get that with TNG and a quantum filament, VOY and the Void's aliens' dampening field, etc. Unless under those circumstances, detached nacelles draw back into the ship or physical struts extend out to grab onto them...then they're flying off into space. When the power is off, that's your lot...so what's the contingency? When Voyager ejected its warp core in "Day Of Honor", they were using the impulse reactors to get things back up and running. If you have detached nacelles and they DETACH...can you grab onto them, you can't do without them, but what do you do and why still box yourself into that corner?
One could argue that the very fact that those things are shown, makes them special situations. If quantum filaments or alien dampening fields were encountered every other day, would Starfleet even begin to note it in their logs? (And, likewise, would we even see it as viewers when special evens are recounted by the captains?)
Anyway, the fact still remains that an enemy that can easily disable the entire power on a ship - to the point of full systems failure so that even the most secure ones, as the detached nacelles would likely be, fail - then the entire ship is in trouble when encountering such an enemy. Floating nacelles would be a very minor issue then.
Warp core failure, boarding parties, life support failures... The entire ship would be at risk. Of course these things are rarely shown simultaneously because episodes usually focus on a single thing. Yet despite that, Starfleet still cares to heavily depend on power to keep the ship together. Detached nacelles are just another variation on that theme.
It may not seem logical to us, but if those things aren't, then flying a ship like Starfleet and other powers do isn't logical either. Using shields against transporters isn't logical then, using antimatter warp cores inside a power-dependent containment field isn't logical in that case, and putting yourself on a ship dependent on energy-fed life support isn't logical...
Cause who knows what might happen if power were disabled?
I'm not saying that it's not valid criticism. What I'm trying to point out is that all these objections that you might have over detached nacelles, apply just as well to many other technologies that we take for granted while watching the shows. Yes, the techology has drawbacks. So do literally all other systems that are still used nevertheless. And the choice to be dependent on those things, combined with many examples from the shows, proves that there (must be) reasons to do make the choice for things that rely on power to function or even to exist at all.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
Ad hominem attacks almost always mean the attacker has run out of valid arguments...
Although in this particular case what it indicates is that valid arguments have been bouncing off this particular person like lasers off the Ent-D's shields, because their hatred for DSC makes them ignore many basic facts (for instance, according to CBS, their metrics indicate this is one of the more successful shows on their platform - if nothing else, "failed" shows that are "in the bottom of the ratings" don't get spinoffs or inspire even more shows, including a YA version in partnership with Nickelodeon, a company not known for voluntarily associating with failure).
This discussion has pointed out many reasons why detached nacelles with 32nd-century technology are no more ridiculous than pylons. They've all been dismissed with a sneer, rather than any actual counterarguments, because apparently there's some universal law that states that any discussion of a Star Trek show will eventually be steered completely off course by someone who just plain hates it. (This may be a corollary to the statement that you're not a true D&D fan until there's an edition you absolutely can't stand. That'd be 4th ed for me - it tries to be too many things, and does none of them well, IMO.)
One of the interesting things about those detached nacelles and force fields...
All matter holding together is pretty much all about force fields. electromagnetic forces keeping the electrons in orbitals around the nuclear core, the strong nuclear force holding the proton and neutrons in the core together, the weak nuclear forces keeping the quarks inside the protons and neutrons (or not doing so and causing them to decay).
Detached nacelles just mean the Federation now has the ability to create similar fields without needing to bother with the known fermions and leptons that make up normal matter. They have accomplished a level of matter or field manipulation even higher than the transporters, replicators and force fields than they could in the 23rd century could accomplish.
And yet, there are still ways to go towards the powers of a Q, Trelane or Kevin Uxbridge.
(This may be a corollary to the statement that you're not a true D&D fan until there's an edition you absolutely can't stand. That'd be 4th ed for me - it tries to be too many things, and does none of them well, IMO.)
Congratulations on being a true D&D fan! As a true D&D fan though I have to say D&D 4 is my absolute favorite version, the implied Points of Light settings, the mechanics that allow never seen before balance between characters of all classes and that sweet, enjoyable tactical combat. Of course, the greatest problem of any type of RPG - you gotta have the time and creativity... and I personally also have to dela with that no matter how long I am GMing already... I still get nervous about it, and worry I suck.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
One of the interesting things about those detached nacelles and force fields...
All matter holding together is pretty much all about force fields. electromagnetic forces keeping the electrons in orbitals around the nuclear core, the strong nuclear force holding the proton and neutrons in the core together, the weak nuclear forces keeping the quarks inside the protons and neutrons (or not doing so and causing them to decay).
Detached nacelles just mean the Federation now has the ability to create similar fields without needing to bother with the known fermions and leptons that make up normal matter. They have accomplished a level of matter or field manipulation even higher than the transporters, replicators and force fields than they could in the 23rd century could accomplish.
And yet, there are still ways to go towards the powers of a Q, Trelane or Kevin Uxbridge.
(This may be a corollary to the statement that you're not a true D&D fan until there's an edition you absolutely can't stand. That'd be 4th ed for me - it tries to be too many things, and does none of them well, IMO.)
Congratulations on being a true D&D fan! As a true D&D fan though I have to say D&D 4 is my absolute favorite version, the implied Points of Light settings, the mechanics that allow never seen before balance between characters of all classes and that sweet, enjoyable tactical combat. Of course, the greatest problem of any type of RPG - you gotta have the time and creativity... and I personally also have to dela with that no matter how long I am GMing already... I still get nervous about it, and worry I suck.
I guess I am not a "true" D&D fan since I didn't have one I absolutely couldn't stand, but then again I never played a lot of them, only the original half-sheet booklet version, basic (if any that would be the "bad" one for me), AD&D first and second editions, and a little bit of third addition.
My group had gotten away from D&D by the time the others came out, and into other games like Champions, FASA Star Trek, Rifts, and the interlinked games that are now collectively called "Classic World of Darkness" among others (we even did FGU's Space Opera for a while too, though the system for it was a tangled nightmare). I was going to run an Urban Arcana campaign but ended up (very loosely) adapting it to Champions as a mystic superhero one instead since too many in the group were burned out on D&D and D20.
I know what you mean by nervous, I would get nervous before every session though once the game got going I would be too busy to think about it until afterwards, it is the worst part of GMing though sometimes the nervousness would sort of convert to a weird clarity which led to the best sessions so it is not all bad. It happens with a lot of people who have to do public speaking or performing and GMing has elements of both.
As for the detached nacelles, the biggest stumbling block isn't so much IF they can do it (it is possible that they could be using the same TARDIS tech as Kal Dano's ship and that whatever is attaching them to the ship is folded somewhere out of normal sight), but rather WHY would they do it from an engineering standpoint. The show fails to give any valid reason for the arrangement except that it is "more advanced" in some vague way, which really means nothing.
Many times, main power goes out, the warp core is offline...we get that with TNG and a quantum filament, VOY and the Void's aliens' dampening field, etc. Unless under those circumstances, detached nacelles draw back into the ship or physical struts extend out to grab onto them...then they're flying off into space. When the power is off, that's your lot...so what's the contingency? When Voyager ejected its warp core in "Day Of Honor", they were using the impulse reactors to get things back up and running. If you have detached nacelles and they DETACH...can you grab onto them, you can't do without them, but what do you do and why still box yourself into that corner?
This just isn't the case.
Real world quantum levitation requires no power. So by real world analogues no power is required to maintain the connection. You could mess with the position, theoretically, by messing with the magnetic field. But a power failure would not cause the nacelles to float away. They'd stay in position just fine.
So if we take the actual real Meissner effect as a template for attachment by subspace fillament (given the Meissner effect is a real thing it's therefore plausible) no power is required. Period. No problem of losing your nacelles. It's just not an issue unless you have catastrophic structural damage.
At that point 'attached' nacelles are gonna drift away too.
As for the detached nacelles, the biggest stumbling block isn't so much IF they can do it (it is possible that they could be using the same TARDIS tech as Kal Dano's ship and that whatever is attaching them to the ship is folded somewhere out of normal sight), but rather WHY would they do it from an engineering standpoint. The show fails to give any valid reason for the arrangement except that it is "more advanced" in some vague way, which really means nothing.
The show specifies increased manoeuvrability.
However I'll give you another reason: power efficiency.
Wirelessly transmitting power from the primary hull to the nacelle through vacuum or near vacuum using an EM field (like a microwave or a laser) would be vastly more energy efficient than the established EPS plasma system used generally in Star Trek. There would be no loss through heat, no need for coolant (at least for that portion of the circuit) and less required maintenance.
This efficiency is practical for real world applications. It would be plausible for science fiction.
@equinox976
Don't antagonize. That indicates to others you're looking for a fight. We're not doing that here, so I am asking you to not make things personal.
@equinox976
Don't antagonize. That indicates to others you're looking for a fight. We're not doing that here, so I am asking you to not make things personal.
Well, I'm certainly not looking for a fight. But I can understand how it could be taken that way. Point noted.
My best representation against the design is practicality. We are physical creatures. It's why in spite of having detached nacelles there is still a corporeal hull. If the lights go out there is still a place for the crew of the vessel to come up with some 11th hour genius solution like Trek does or make their peace with impending life support failure. In primitive conditions an engineer like Scott could cram himself into a confined space, worm around a bit and deal with the problem. The more gadgets and spinners you throw on things, the more problematic it becomes to make them right when tech fails. Emergency plans are reduced to near primal levels so they can be executed with spartan resources. If you can't even throw together a route map to the crisis you are already done.
That's generally how advanced civilizations fail - they become so advanced, they can no longer conceive of simplicity...like the Asgard during the Replicator war in Stargate - they just kept throwing ever more advanced tech at the problem, making their enemy more advanced every time.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
@shadowfang240 That's why I had to Scott in there. He was a no nonsense engineer. He appreciated his beautiful ship but when things fell apart a crew member walking or crawling to a site with a hand tool and the know how may be the only available resources. How many power outtages have we experienced in our lives? Sometimes a car or high winds will take out a pole but throw all the brown outs or the flickers into the equation into the mix and there is something to be said for the sustainability of matter over energy.
There's also the fact that we are currently so dependent on power that the next time a major solar storm like the one from back in the 1800s hits, we're going to see chaos for weeks, if not months...back then, it was just a minor inconvenience (And in some cases, like with telegraphs, even a temporary improvement.), but today, it would end in millions of deaths.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Ad hominem attacks almost always mean the attacker has run out of valid arguments...
Although in this particular case what it indicates is that valid arguments have been bouncing off this particular person like lasers off the Ent-D's shields, because their hatred for DSC makes them ignore many basic facts (for instance, according to CBS, their metrics indicate this is one of the more successful shows on their platform - if nothing else, "failed" shows that are "in the bottom of the ratings" don't get spinoffs or inspire even more shows, including a YA version in partnership with Nickelodeon, a company not known for voluntarily associating with failure).
This discussion has pointed out many reasons why detached nacelles with 32nd-century technology are no more ridiculous than pylons. They've all been dismissed with a sneer, rather than any actual counterarguments, because apparently there's some universal law that states that any discussion of a Star Trek show will eventually be steered completely off course by someone who just plain hates it. (This may be a corollary to the statement that you're not a true D&D fan until there's an edition you absolutely can't stand. That'd be 4th ed for me - it tries to be too many things, and does none of them well, IMO.)
I feel the need to quote TV Trope's comments regarding DSC here.
"• Star Trek: Discovery carries on the proud tradition of ‘Ruined Forever!’. A streaming service-exclusive? Ruined. A Cosmetically Advanced Prequel? Ruined! Klingons with different forehead bumps and a different design aesthetic? So ruined! Harry Mudd? DOUBLE RUINED. TRIBBLES? EXTRA RUINATION FOR ALL ETERNITY.
• The Fan Dumb just gets dumber: with Discovery now a hit, CBS is creating more Star Trek series and the popularity of the franchise in general is exploding. Naturally, this is a sure sign of RUINED FOREVER because, essentially, Star Trek is supposed to belong only to its oldest, sourest gate-keepers and no one else.
• Despite this, these same sour gate-keepers declared that the proof that Discovery would RUIN Trek FOREVER is that no one would watch it. Now, the fact that it's a hit just confirms the ruination."
What makes this worse is that, as the same page states: "The producers-writers of Discovery actually listened to fan opinions, and made some changes in the second season. The series became less dark and gritty and more Star Trek-spirited, and classic characters such as Spock, Captain Christopher Pike, and Number One were brought on board. Anson Mount's portrayal of Pike was especially praised as being a true manifestation of Trek's humanist, adventurous spirit. The ending of season 2 was basically an attempt to please fans who complained about "canon violations". Discovery is sent into the far future, and all information regarding the ship is classified by Starfleet, providing an in-universe explanation of why we've never heard of Spock's adopted sister or the "spore drive" before.
Of course, I guess the haters are going to ignore the fact that Season 2, and the feedback pertaining to the appearance of the Enterprise/Pike etc, was very probably responsible for the producers seeing the benefit of making another series (Strange New Worlds).
You're right, that does make it worse. Ridley supposedly listened to the fans, which is why the abomination that was Convent exists...but who are these supposed fans that curbed what we know as Disco today? I don't believe it. If they listened to fans and no, not just fans of Disco; then we'd have a completely different series on our hands and would of since day one. The series is radically different from season to season, because the last was all about "The Burn" and the first was all about Klingon rapists and abusing Tardigrades. And yeah, series should progress, but it doesn't feel like a natural progression. And the argument will be...we listened to the fans, but that's not true. They're listening to the studio and the producers, who could give a flying proverbial about what the fans think. It's money all the way, no matter the Razzies that are awarded.
My 2 ECs before pointing out how off track this is getting...
Studios sometimes do listen to fans. Biggest example is Sonic the Hedgehog. Pretty sure we all remember that... thing... they tried to call Sonic in the first trailer for that move. Yea it was a more realistic take on the character, but it went too far and fans raged. The director and the studio actually heard it, pushed back the release, and redid the CG model of Sonic to be a bit closer to the video game version while maintaining a few of the more realistic elements to allow him to not look as out of place. And it worked. The movie went from "predicted to bomb as bad as Super Mario Bros" to "Best Video Game Movie". Jokes about Jim Carrey's back notwithstanding...
The fact remains that CBS did hear the complaints about the Klingons, and the makeup changed in season 2, lining up a bit more with TNG style Klingons while keeping some of the elements that came in season 1. Smoothing out the features and giving them hair went a LONG way in fixing the problem the Klingons had. And the introduction of the D7 as a brand new ship also went towards solving the ship design issue. Also kinda makes it funny that a ship that at that point was 10 years old was able to match a brand new ship. And makes it funnier that "in 10 years or so" when Kirk is in command, we now have a 20 year old ship holding her own against something half her age, and even modified by the Romulans.
Ah...no. Three independently warp capable sections, each with TWO nacelles (one rose out of the top and bottom of the sauce) that were ATTACHED, physically.
Ah...no. Three independently warp capable sections, each with TWO nacelles (one rose out of the top and bottom of the sauce) that were ATTACHED, physically.
^This^
Two of the segments used the primary nacelles, as the hull split down the middle allowing for two per section, and the saucer had two smaller, retractable nacelles.
A ship that comes apart from itself? Real Starfleet Officers, "Fly her apart" themselves 😀.
Ooh, but a Sulu series would have been terrific. George exploring the Alpha Quadrant in the Excelsior, Janice on communications, although I always thought she should have been first officer and maybe even Tim.
Comments
Ad hominem attacks almost always mean the attacker has run out of valid arguments, so you might want to rethink your strategy if you don't want people thinking your are out of ideas, especially after trying the diversion about a free game. The subject was the detached nacelles in DSC and what people thought about them, not anything to do with STO.
The subject has varied accorss many topics since the initial post. Including topics such as the various Trek' franchises (including writing ability/direction).
In addition to this I referenced my response to another post the person I was replying to (take note: not YOU) in regard to (what I perceive) to be a very self entitled opinion of what the game should give them.
I note that you are not a moderator, so perhaps you should stop trying to be one? If a moderator regards my comments as an Ad hominem attack I shall no doubt be reprimanded, and respect thier decision. Your 'hall monitoring' is not needed here, thank you.
(Emphasis added.)
True, but as explained by various people: that's a big 'if'. Power failures of such magnitude aren't that easy to cause. Or else it'd be very easy to blow up or permanently disable an entire ship cause there are many systems that rely on power. Like warp containment or life support - which are still used despite their dependency on energy systems. Indeed, such energy systems were usually shown to be of major importance when it comes to buffing physical things like weapons (reroute power to X).
In fact, when full power disabling did happen (like when the Defiant encountered Breen dissipators) it was a huge thing, sufficiently so to be a major plot element. Which shows that it doesn't happen normally and that it's very exceptional for such a thing to happen. Other power based systems like shields weren't disabled that easily either.
And, again, a minor technical failure due to enemy weapon fire hitting the hull (like in Generations with the cooling leak) showed that no matter how much duranium and structural integrity a ship had, it would still cause the loss of the entire ship. Or at least half of it for ship classes that could split themselves in parts.
To make a long message short:
'If power is disabled' is, by itself, a valid concern. But many instances in various shows indicate that
1. Power isn't disable that easily.
2. Even if it were, Starfleet was willing to heavily depend on power and energy nonetheless.
3. Physical / metallic components weren't all that reliable either - indeed, they usually heavily depended on power and energy.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
In Nemesis, Geordi mentions that warp drive was disabled by the Scimitar's first shot. We can also see that the forcefield around the warp core is easily disabled early on in the fight.
Of course, the Scimitar was an exceptionally powerful ship. But this (including the way Geordi mentions the fact it was so easily disabled in this case) once more shows that simply disabling or disturbing power based systems isn't really that easy. Basically, it's the exception that proves the rule. Apparently the force field would have been an useful addition under normal circumstances. So that proves that power based defences work, in general.
That same movie also reminds us how the disabling of shields can easily allow boarding parties to enter the ship. So in that case too, physical barriers aren't necessarily better - or even of any importance.
It's fine if people don't want to buy into easy explanations or if they consider 'it's just highly advanced tech' too easy an explanation. But let's not pretend that physical barriers and hull were that much more important or power based systems not deemed reliable enough for ships to heavily depend on it. Plenty of examples from older shows suggest otherwise, making it not that strange for future ships to rely on them to keep the ship together. That's basically always been the case.
Lastly, I'm not a huge Disco fan. But I don't see the problem with detached components. It has little to nothing to do with Discovery's show writers.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Having said that, I still maintain it's not 'floating' -- that's just ppl unwilling to think outside the box. Rather, like the infamous Tardis example -- or the small craft in ST:Enterprise -- I am okay with accepting future tech can do stuff with space/dimensions we simply are not capable of yet (let alone understand).
In DS9, we saw that (although it was just to contain him, because Dukat didn't trust him) Odo's force field ran independently. I'd like to assume that force fields in brigs etc, ran on separate power or had backups.
When you're living in a time of transparent illuminum though, it does make you wonder why you don't just have a big door.
I tell you though...I'm find with Enterprise's TARDIS rip-off and manipulating time and space, but I just find detached nacelles not a technological advancement, not a principal and to genuine just be a producer driven idea and opportunity to use more CGI and to be "cool".
One could argue that the very fact that those things are shown, makes them special situations. If quantum filaments or alien dampening fields were encountered every other day, would Starfleet even begin to note it in their logs? (And, likewise, would we even see it as viewers when special evens are recounted by the captains?)
Anyway, the fact still remains that an enemy that can easily disable the entire power on a ship - to the point of full systems failure so that even the most secure ones, as the detached nacelles would likely be, fail - then the entire ship is in trouble when encountering such an enemy. Floating nacelles would be a very minor issue then.
Warp core failure, boarding parties, life support failures... The entire ship would be at risk. Of course these things are rarely shown simultaneously because episodes usually focus on a single thing. Yet despite that, Starfleet still cares to heavily depend on power to keep the ship together. Detached nacelles are just another variation on that theme.
It may not seem logical to us, but if those things aren't, then flying a ship like Starfleet and other powers do isn't logical either. Using shields against transporters isn't logical then, using antimatter warp cores inside a power-dependent containment field isn't logical in that case, and putting yourself on a ship dependent on energy-fed life support isn't logical...
Cause who knows what might happen if power were disabled?
I'm not saying that it's not valid criticism. What I'm trying to point out is that all these objections that you might have over detached nacelles, apply just as well to many other technologies that we take for granted while watching the shows. Yes, the techology has drawbacks. So do literally all other systems that are still used nevertheless. And the choice to be dependent on those things, combined with many examples from the shows, proves that there (must be) reasons to do make the choice for things that rely on power to function or even to exist at all.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
This discussion has pointed out many reasons why detached nacelles with 32nd-century technology are no more ridiculous than pylons. They've all been dismissed with a sneer, rather than any actual counterarguments, because apparently there's some universal law that states that any discussion of a Star Trek show will eventually be steered completely off course by someone who just plain hates it. (This may be a corollary to the statement that you're not a true D&D fan until there's an edition you absolutely can't stand. That'd be 4th ed for me - it tries to be too many things, and does none of them well, IMO.)
All matter holding together is pretty much all about force fields. electromagnetic forces keeping the electrons in orbitals around the nuclear core, the strong nuclear force holding the proton and neutrons in the core together, the weak nuclear forces keeping the quarks inside the protons and neutrons (or not doing so and causing them to decay).
Detached nacelles just mean the Federation now has the ability to create similar fields without needing to bother with the known fermions and leptons that make up normal matter. They have accomplished a level of matter or field manipulation even higher than the transporters, replicators and force fields than they could in the 23rd century could accomplish.
And yet, there are still ways to go towards the powers of a Q, Trelane or Kevin Uxbridge.
Congratulations on being a true D&D fan! As a true D&D fan though I have to say D&D 4 is my absolute favorite version, the implied Points of Light settings, the mechanics that allow never seen before balance between characters of all classes and that sweet, enjoyable tactical combat. Of course, the greatest problem of any type of RPG - you gotta have the time and creativity... and I personally also have to dela with that no matter how long I am GMing already... I still get nervous about it, and worry I suck.
I guess I am not a "true" D&D fan since I didn't have one I absolutely couldn't stand, but then again I never played a lot of them, only the original half-sheet booklet version, basic (if any that would be the "bad" one for me), AD&D first and second editions, and a little bit of third addition.
My group had gotten away from D&D by the time the others came out, and into other games like Champions, FASA Star Trek, Rifts, and the interlinked games that are now collectively called "Classic World of Darkness" among others (we even did FGU's Space Opera for a while too, though the system for it was a tangled nightmare). I was going to run an Urban Arcana campaign but ended up (very loosely) adapting it to Champions as a mystic superhero one instead since too many in the group were burned out on D&D and D20.
I know what you mean by nervous, I would get nervous before every session though once the game got going I would be too busy to think about it until afterwards, it is the worst part of GMing though sometimes the nervousness would sort of convert to a weird clarity which led to the best sessions so it is not all bad. It happens with a lot of people who have to do public speaking or performing and GMing has elements of both.
As for the detached nacelles, the biggest stumbling block isn't so much IF they can do it (it is possible that they could be using the same TARDIS tech as Kal Dano's ship and that whatever is attaching them to the ship is folded somewhere out of normal sight), but rather WHY would they do it from an engineering standpoint. The show fails to give any valid reason for the arrangement except that it is "more advanced" in some vague way, which really means nothing.
This just isn't the case.
Real world quantum levitation requires no power. So by real world analogues no power is required to maintain the connection. You could mess with the position, theoretically, by messing with the magnetic field. But a power failure would not cause the nacelles to float away. They'd stay in position just fine.
So if we take the actual real Meissner effect as a template for attachment by subspace fillament (given the Meissner effect is a real thing it's therefore plausible) no power is required. Period. No problem of losing your nacelles. It's just not an issue unless you have catastrophic structural damage.
At that point 'attached' nacelles are gonna drift away too.
The show specifies increased manoeuvrability.
However I'll give you another reason: power efficiency.
Wirelessly transmitting power from the primary hull to the nacelle through vacuum or near vacuum using an EM field (like a microwave or a laser) would be vastly more energy efficient than the established EPS plasma system used generally in Star Trek. There would be no loss through heat, no need for coolant (at least for that portion of the circuit) and less required maintenance.
This efficiency is practical for real world applications. It would be plausible for science fiction.
Don't antagonize. That indicates to others you're looking for a fight. We're not doing that here, so I am asking you to not make things personal.
Well, I'm certainly not looking for a fight. But I can understand how it could be taken that way. Point noted.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
You're right, that does make it worse. Ridley supposedly listened to the fans, which is why the abomination that was Convent exists...but who are these supposed fans that curbed what we know as Disco today? I don't believe it. If they listened to fans and no, not just fans of Disco; then we'd have a completely different series on our hands and would of since day one. The series is radically different from season to season, because the last was all about "The Burn" and the first was all about Klingon rapists and abusing Tardigrades. And yeah, series should progress, but it doesn't feel like a natural progression. And the argument will be...we listened to the fans, but that's not true. They're listening to the studio and the producers, who could give a flying proverbial about what the fans think. It's money all the way, no matter the Razzies that are awarded.
Studios sometimes do listen to fans. Biggest example is Sonic the Hedgehog. Pretty sure we all remember that... thing... they tried to call Sonic in the first trailer for that move. Yea it was a more realistic take on the character, but it went too far and fans raged. The director and the studio actually heard it, pushed back the release, and redid the CG model of Sonic to be a bit closer to the video game version while maintaining a few of the more realistic elements to allow him to not look as out of place. And it worked. The movie went from "predicted to bomb as bad as Super Mario Bros" to "Best Video Game Movie". Jokes about Jim Carrey's back notwithstanding...
The fact remains that CBS did hear the complaints about the Klingons, and the makeup changed in season 2, lining up a bit more with TNG style Klingons while keeping some of the elements that came in season 1. Smoothing out the features and giving them hair went a LONG way in fixing the problem the Klingons had. And the introduction of the D7 as a brand new ship also went towards solving the ship design issue. Also kinda makes it funny that a ship that at that point was 10 years old was able to match a brand new ship. And makes it funnier that "in 10 years or so" when Kirk is in command, we now have a 20 year old ship holding her own against something half her age, and even modified by the Romulans.
Ah...no. Three independently warp capable sections, each with TWO nacelles (one rose out of the top and bottom of the sauce) that were ATTACHED, physically.
Two of the segments used the primary nacelles, as the hull split down the middle allowing for two per section, and the saucer had two smaller, retractable nacelles.
This is fan-art for another class, but it shows what we mean. Prometheus did NOT have detached nacelles.
A ship that comes apart from itself? Real Starfleet Officers, "Fly her apart" themselves 😀.
Ooh, but a Sulu series would have been terrific. George exploring the Alpha Quadrant in the Excelsior, Janice on communications, although I always thought she should have been first officer and maybe even Tim.