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The point in Detached Warp Nacelles I hear you ask?

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  • edited June 2021
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    Ehm, it's kind of strange to complain about Picard following the Prime Directive and stuff and at the same time claim he was egotistical.

    Kind of seems like you're ignoring why Picard believed in the Prime Directive. It has a lot to do with not thinking you posess the wisdom to determine what's good for other species and civilisations.

    Which is something that has extensively been discussed on here, but I don't think I've ever before seen anyone claim that his strict adherence to the PD is because of arrogance or egoism. It's exactly the opposite, a clear sense of humility.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,596 Community Moderator
    kayajay wrote: »
    Do you remember that episode of DS9 with the comet? Sisko said that Defiant's shuttlepod didn't use antimatter in its warp drive...but what did it use? Did it have dilithium, or did it use something entirely different?

    I don't remember the episode, as its been forever since I saw DS9, however after checking Memory Alpha... outside of behind the scenes talk about it, there's no mention of the Chaffee type Shuttlepod having a Warp Drive at all. In fact the article says that the POWER GRID is run off the shuttle's impulse engines, which explains the lack of antimatter. So its entirely possible that that particular class of Shuttlepod was actually a short range craft only capable of sublight speeds, not unlike those used 200 years earlier by the NX Class.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chaffee_type_shuttlepod
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    And to be fair, if anyone from the Picard series was arrogant, it was Admiral Kirsten 'STFU' Clancy. Reasonable people don't need to curse and use their big chair to tell others to shut up just because they want them to.

    Certainly not when you're talking to one of the most celebrated and revered officers - which Picard still was for most of the time in-universe, regardless of what anyone in real life thinks of that.
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  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,800 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    And to be fair, if anyone from the Picard series was arrogant, it was Admiral Kirsten 'STFU' Clancy. Reasonable people don't need to curse and use their big chair to tell others to shut up just because they want them to.

    Certainly not when you're talking to one of the most celebrated and revered officers - which Picard still was for most of the time in-universe, regardless of what anyone in real life thinks of that.
    Clancy was absolutely justified in her statements and actions in that scene.

    Picard is a man who left Starfleet in anger, spend years bad mouthing everything they did, just got done doing so AGAIN in a super public interview, and then just waltzed in, demanding a ship and crew at the snap of his fingers, and just expects everyone to go along with it despite the fact he had no proof of any of his actions. THAT is egotism, and arrogance, to the max.

    As we see later in the series, once Picard acts reasonably, follows basic procedures, and gets some proof, Clancy is perfectly willing and ready to send an entire fleet of ships to help out the synths. She even interrupts Picard before he can finish his "Picard speech", because she doesn't even that to convince her.

    Its almost like if you act like a decent human being you get treated like one, but if you act like a self absorbed, egotistical, manchild you get treated like one too.

    I didn't see him act like a manchild, In fact Starfleet deserved to be bad mouthed, how can you not up hold on your end of the Bargain, you even agreed to their aid and then leave half way, WTH Starfleet, you're supposed to be the good guys.
  • equinox976equinox976 Member Posts: 2,305 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.

    We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?

    My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.

    it's also safer than a singularity core, mini black holes would be extremely dangerous.

    Not sure why you would think that.

    From theoretical science, mini black holes (as predicted to occur in the large hadron collider) they would have such short life spans and such short gravitational fields, that they would evaporate within miliseconds of creation.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,596 Community Moderator
    equinox976 wrote: »
    Not sure why you would think that.

    From theoretical science, mini black holes (as predicted to occur in the large hadron collider) they would have such short life spans and such short gravitational fields, that they would evaporate within miliseconds of creation.

    Its implied that the singularities used in Romulan Cores are not short lived. They're fully developed, maintained, and contained.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    Any technology sufficiently advanced to our own can be mistake for magic.

    It's super, mega advanced technology, folks. As Dug Drexler said, who himself wanted to put floating engine pods in several shows, said "Stop thinking with your 'ape-brain' ".
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  • zzzspina01zzzspina01 Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    Im just wandering how they get from saucer to engineering in a battle situation. If transporters are down. If they have to separate like the Enterprise did in ST Generations. Do half the crew just die ?
    I cant brain I have the dumb
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  • zzzspina01zzzspina01 Member Posts: 313 Arc User
    zzzspina01 wrote: »
    Im just wandering how they get from saucer to engineering in a battle situation. If transporters are down. If they have to separate like the Enterprise did in ST Generations. Do half the crew just die ?
    They have built in transporters in thier combadges. They don't really need the ship's transporters to get around.

    cool. i never got into Disco. only saw 1st season. Thanks for the update.
    I cant brain I have the dumb
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,668 Arc User
    Speaking of Picard and his religion that is the prime directive, I'd like to see some folks from those worlds the PD brushed aside, going "Remember us?"

    Pity Picard series also had killers, thieves and junkies as 'the heroes'.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,596 Community Moderator
    Pity Picard series also had killers, thieves and junkies as 'the heroes'.

    That was probably the thing. They weren't Starfleet. One left the service on his own accord (Rios), the other had her career ruined (Raffi).

    We're used to seeing everything from a Starfleet perspective. Even DS9 was mostly Starfleet. Picard is more freelancer/civilian side. And at the end of season 1 it did look like Raffi was turning her life around again. But given the kind of shtako Raffi took after Picard resigned, its no surprise she crawled into a bottle. Probably the only way she could cope with having her whole world turned upside down and pulled out from under her.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    kayajay wrote: »
    Do you remember that episode of DS9 with the comet? Sisko said that Defiant's shuttlepod didn't use antimatter in its warp drive...but what did it use? Did it have dilithium, or did it use something entirely different?

    I don't remember the episode, as its been forever since I saw DS9, however after checking Memory Alpha... outside of behind the scenes talk about it, there's no mention of the Chaffee type Shuttlepod having a Warp Drive at all. In fact the article says that the POWER GRID is run off the shuttle's impulse engines, which explains the lack of antimatter. So its entirely possible that that particular class of Shuttlepod was actually a short range craft only capable of sublight speeds, not unlike those used 200 years earlier by the NX Class.

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Chaffee_type_shuttlepod

    "The Sound Of Her Voice":

    SISKO: What about a shuttle pod? Their impulse engines don't use antimatter.

    I didn't know that impulse engines even used antimatter, but how can you use antimatter without dilithium? It's matter and antimatter hitting dilithium to do its bit. I remember impulse reactors and I'm not Googling them myself, but again...I don't know how they're fuelled.

    I still just maintain that after the dreadful plotline that was "The Burn", Starfleet and all races should have jettisoned their remaining dilithium and flown a different way...Just. In. Case.
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  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    In the first season of TNG, I thought Picard was flat as a pancake. I then SERIOUSLY disliked him in season two, but that was only because of Polaski...her whole point was to be a female Bones, antagonist to Picard, but it was a terrible combination and made Picard do unpleasant. Season three though...that's when Jean-Luc came into his own onwards. We learnt a lot about him, with his relationships, morals, his decisions made sense.
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    Pity Picard series also had killers, thieves and junkies as 'the heroes'.
    DS9 had a terrorist who proudly admitted to the horrible things she did(Kira), and ex spy who lied about everything(Garak), a Ferengi who was constantly cheating people(Quark), and Captain War Crimes(Sisko) in its main cast.

    Perfect people don't exist, and are a boring idea anyways.

    Couldn't agree more. Saints aren't realistic and they have no depth to them. Voyager...the Marquis made massive strikes against Cardassians, including if Dreadnought had worked, then they would basically have destroyed a planet with it.

    They blew up ships and facilities and all had blood on their hands, but they were still good people and even though I would have LOVED to see B'Elanna as Ro Laren as intended and also Kira as Ro Laren as was also intended, I still really enjoyed what Roxanne and Nana did with their characters.

    In Disco...everything is so forced and made worse because the characters just aren't there. Every action, to me personally at least, feels random. The decisions don't make sense, the reasoning and no matter what they do, you're always supposed to be glad that they prevail. Instead, I just keep hoping it'll get cancelled and better effort will go into something else.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,596 Community Moderator
    kayajay wrote: »
    "The Sound Of Her Voice":

    SISKO: What about a shuttle pod? Their impulse engines don't use antimatter.

    I didn't know that impulse engines even used antimatter, but how can you use antimatter without dilithium? It's matter and antimatter hitting dilithium to do its bit. I remember impulse reactors and I'm not Googling them myself, but again...I don't know how they're fuelled.

    Impulse engines apparently use a form of fusion reactor.
    In Federation starships, the impulse drive was essentially an augmented fusion rocket, usually consisting of one or more fusion reactors, a driver coil assembly, and a vectored thrust nozzle to direct the plasma exhaust. The fusion reaction generated a highly energized plasma. This plasma, ("electro-plasma") could be employed for propulsion, or could be diverted through the EPS to the power transfer grid, via EPS conduits, so as to supply other systems. The accelerated plasma was passed through the driver coils, thereby generating a subspace field that improved the propulsive effect.

    This technology remained largely unchanged from the 22nd century to the 2360s. (TNG: "Relics")

    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Impulse_engine
    I still just maintain that after the dreadful plotline that was "The Burn", Starfleet and all races should have jettisoned their remaining dilithium and flown a different way...Just. In. Case.

    The problem with that line of thought is that you're pretty much demanding they put a dead stop to EVERYTHING to research an alternative that is just as widely accessable. We already know why the known alternatives aren't as viable. It would be like today saying dump fossil fuels RIGHT NAO and start researching something entirely new from the ground up. How is the galaxy supposed to function in the meantime? That's unrealistic IMO. Especially in the shattered state the galaxy is currently in.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,460 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    equinox976 wrote: »
    equinox976 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    kayajay wrote: »
    All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.

    It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
    But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!

    (Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)

    I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.

    We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).

    But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.

    I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.

    What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.

    I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.

    In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).

    Anyhoo, end of rant, went off on a tangent there.

    (Emphasis added)

    I'm just curious now, how puny is warp drive compared to a black hole in terms of its effect on space?

    Light cannot escape a black hole. But warping allows for speeds that are much higher than that of light. So you'd think that creating a warp bubble actually has a much greater effect on its surroundings than even that of a black hole has on its.

    Rather than answer myself (because I'll probably talk too long, and maybe even give you the wrong answer)

    I'll refer you to someone else who has already looked at the 'problem' of creating a warp drive, without the same constraints of creating an infinitely dense area, as those manifested by a black hole, whilst still allowing faster than light speed:

    https://theconversation.com/warp-drives-physicists-give-chances-of-faster-than-light-space-travel-a-boost-157391

    A snippet fromt that article:

    "1994, Miguel Alcubierre, a Mexican theoretical physicist, showed that compressing spacetime in front of the spaceship while expanding it behind was mathematically possible within the laws of General Relativity."


    You left out a few parts. According to Lentz (at the University of Göttingen), a 100 m radius spacecraft would require the energy equivalent to “hundreds of times of the mass of the planet Jupiter.” He adds that to be practical, this requirement would have to be reduced by about 30 orders of magnitude to be on par with the output of a modern nuclear fission reactor. He also mentions a 'Horizon' problem: “A warp bubble travelling faster than light cannot be created from inside the bubble, as the leading edge of the bubble would be beyond the reach of a spaceship sitting at its centre.”
    The mass issue may have been solved by Harold White at NASA; he theorizes that if you can vary the edges of the warp bubble in transit, you can cut that down to about 700 kilograms. (Then you just have the problem of finding 700 kilograms of "exotic matter" that generates a negative energy density, and of course the simple engineering problems of creating the bubble, collapsing the bubble once created (as the interior is causally separated from the rest of reality), and not sterilizing your destination with Hawking radiation when you do collapse the bubble, as enough matter would have collected in the leading wavefront to form a microsingularity of its own.)

    As for "singularities exploding", that's a matter of imprecise language. According to quantum black hole theory, the smaller the event horizon of a hole, the more rapidly it evaporates; Hawking's equations showed that holes as small as a kilogram in mass should have formed during the Big Bang, but most of those would have evaporated almost immediately, possibly explosively. One as massive as a minor planet like Ceres would be running out of mass about now. One the mass of Earth could be expected to continue until all the current stars have gone out. I don't have figures on how massive the singularities used by the Romulans were, but I think it would be safe to assume they were more on the order of Ceres, or possibly smaller, than planetary mass, because the ship still has to move that mass. Smaller holes could be kept stable by feeding them the ship's garbage, or random rocks one runs across in space. So long as this process doesn't involve dilithium itself (and in-show dialog implies that it doesn't, unless the T'liss-class in "Balance of Terror" used a more traditional matter/antimatter drive), it should be possible to maintain low warp, say around warp 2 or 3 (much like the civilian ships in ENT); dilithium only seems to be needed to mediate energy flows in a warp drive at factor 4 or higher. Of course, the process of creating new singularities for drive cores may have been deemed too dangerous by the folks in charge of Ni'Var, as you can get the same process from an unmediated M/A reactor (or even a fusion reactor, in a pinch).

    Fun part about quantum black hole theory: The reason a black hole is sometimes called a "singularity" is because once you get beyond the event horizon while mathematically modeling the system, your equations stop working. Basically, none of the laws of physics can possible apply at the core of the hole - hence, a mathematical singularity. Thing is, while quantum theory describes how the hole can evaporate, it doesn't state with certainty that the singularity itself ever goes away. It may just hang there in space, indefinitely, a tiny little spot where everything breaks down... (In the novel The Entropy Effect by Vonda McIntyre, the Enterprise is detailed to investigate a naked singularity, which by the end of the book has managed to emit enough mass to form an event horizon, becoming a black hole once again, in obedience with what is in seriousness called the Law of Cosmic Censorship.) So while it's possible for a sufficiently low-mass hole to "explode", emitting its remaining mass-energy in a single flux, singularities don't "explode", and a singularity massive enough to generate a wormhole couldn't even do that much - you're talking about stellar masses here, not a dozen kilos or so.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.

    We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?

    My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.

    it's also safer than a singularity core, mini black holes would be extremely dangerous.


    The whole notion of a Singularity Core is kinda silly, really. A Singularity is typically defined as 'a location in spacetime where the density and gravitational field of a celestial body is predicted to become infinite by general relativity.' Good luck containing that. :wink: (or feeding it, for that matter) How would it work? By collecting super-heated Hawking radiation? Who knows. But, realistically, a Warp Core is far more realistic than a Singularity Core.
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  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Singularity Cores would definitely would be unaffected by the Burn but that Knowledge is so secretly guarded that not even Vulcans use it even after the reunification.

    We don't know that for certain. We know for a fact that Dilithium is important to regulate a Matter/Antimatter reaction. We don't know how a Singularity Core works, or if Dilithium is a component in that or not. So we really cannot say one way or the other at all. On top of that, you'd think by the 32nd Century others besides the Romulans would have figured out Singularity Cores, and if that was the case, why don't we see more of them? Why is the basic Matter/Antimatter Core still a thing?

    My guess, its a lot more reliable than a Singularity Core and far easier to maintain while still producing the same energy output of a comparable Singularity Core.

    it's also safer than a singularity core, mini black holes would be extremely dangerous.


    The whole notion of a Singularity Core is kinda silly, really. A Singularity is typically defined as 'a location in spacetime where the density and gravitational field of a celestial body is predicted to become infinite by general relativity.' Good luck containing that. :wink: (or feeding it, for that matter) How would it work? By collecting super-heated Hawking radiation? Who knows. But, realistically, a Warp Core is far more realistic than a Singularity Core.

    Well, according to Deanna, the Romulans use an ARTIFICAL singularity. I don't know exactly how you make an artificial one, but the Romulans apparently did and it was also enough for Star Trek's favourite stunt person and B5's Lyta to make a mistake and try to use one as a nest.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,596 Community Moderator
    Romulan Red Matter Mastery confirmed? ;)
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,284 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    Singularity cores aren't silly at all - using an artificially created black hole is frequently mentioned throughout Isaac Arthur's videos as a power source, a propulsion system, a weapon or a source of gravity for artificial worlds (Like shell worlds), and the man does his research on every topic he does so I have no reason to doubt the validity of using an artificial black hole for any of those methods.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    equinox976 wrote: »
    equinox976 wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    kayajay wrote: »
    All the ships should have been using Quantum Slipstream or Soliton Waves, but not warp.

    It. Did. Not. Make. Sense, since they couldn't explain what had happened.
    But they did. Quantum slipstream requires something (can't remember what it was called, but Book mentioned it) that's harder to get than dilithium. Transwarp is dangerous because the passages are crowded with the remains of ships that were underway in them when the Burn happened. Soliton waves, as you might recall from TNG, have a tendency to not stop, potentially destroying planets (this is a bad thing). Standard warp was dangerous only because they didn't know what caused the Burn, or if it might happen again; now that the Discovery's crew has solved the issue, and found a rich dilithium source in the process, warp drive is back, bay-bee!

    (Other civilizations may not have been affected, as noted above, or they may not have been quite so gun-shy as the Federation about resuming warp travel with whatever dilithium remained. The Emerald Chain certainly wasn't shy about it, they were just hoarding their resources.)

    I would have preffered if they had (as Star Trek has tried to adhere to in the past) stuck to what science already has to say about 'warping space'.

    We know for instance, that any signifcant body of mass, 'warps' space in some way or form. Black holes (and in particular, 'super massive' black holes, warp and deform space in such a manner that the 'space' no longer functions in a manner humans can interact with).

    But despite natural phenomena warping/stretching space to it's utter extremes (such as the aforementioned supermassive black holes) and the fact they have done this for billions of years, without any signifcant 'damage' to the rest of space, would suggest to me, any puny warp drive would have little effect.

    I thought 'all good things' was an excellent end, to an excellent series. The 'damage' caused by warp drive was largely addressed by 'variable height' nacessles (such as sported by Voyager). And that was the end of it.

    What the latest series has brought in with 'the burn' seems (to me) just an excuse to make what was already a dark take on the Trek' franchise, even more darker and more dystopian.

    I used to really enjoy Star Trek (each and every series) up until Discovery. I've tried my best to like it, and I never thought I would ever get bored of any Star Trek series (Ive probably watched ALL of DS9 about 20 times, and even the 'weaker series' ENT/VOY about 9 or 10 times.

    In comparison, I find myself pausing Discovery to have a break from the constant 'downer' feel. And often not bothering to restart it again. I have no problems with the actors, I think they are all very good. I just dont feel any connection with the story lines, I find my mind wandering, rather than being riveted by whats going to happen next (remember Sisko/Dukat in that cave? - Picard/Wesely in THAT cave?, Ive never (ever) had the kind of feeling like that from ANY Discovery episode).

    Anyhoo, end of rant, went off on a tangent there.

    (Emphasis added)

    I'm just curious now, how puny is warp drive compared to a black hole in terms of its effect on space?

    Light cannot escape a black hole. But warping allows for speeds that are much higher than that of light. So you'd think that creating a warp bubble actually has a much greater effect on its surroundings than even that of a black hole has on its.

    Rather than answer myself (because I'll probably talk too long, and maybe even give you the wrong answer)

    I'll refer you to someone else who has already looked at the 'problem' of creating a warp drive, without the same constraints of creating an infinitely dense area, as those manifested by a black hole, whilst still allowing faster than light speed:

    https://theconversation.com/warp-drives-physicists-give-chances-of-faster-than-light-space-travel-a-boost-157391

    A snippet fromt that article:

    "1994, Miguel Alcubierre, a Mexican theoretical physicist, showed that compressing spacetime in front of the spaceship while expanding it behind was mathematically possible within the laws of General Relativity."


    You left out a few parts. According to Lentz (at the University of Göttingen), a 100 m radius spacecraft would require the energy equivalent to “hundreds of times of the mass of the planet Jupiter.” He adds that to be practical, this requirement would have to be reduced by about 30 orders of magnitude to be on par with the output of a modern nuclear fission reactor. He also mentions a 'Horizon' problem: “A warp bubble travelling faster than light cannot be created from inside the bubble, as the leading edge of the bubble would be beyond the reach of a spaceship sitting at its centre.”
    The mass issue may have been solved by Harold White at NASA; he theorizes that if you can vary the edges of the warp bubble in transit, you can cut that down to about 700 kilograms. (Then you just have the problem of finding 700 kilograms of "exotic matter" that generates a negative energy density, and of course the simple engineering problems of creating the bubble, collapsing the bubble once created (as the interior is causally separated from the rest of reality), and not sterilizing your destination with Hawking radiation when you do collapse the bubble, as enough matter would have collected in the leading wavefront to form a microsingularity of its own.)


    ^^ Good stuff. I also read one may need less energy than I initially thought, in that the total energy required can apparently be reduced dramatically (to a few miligrams even) by keeping the surface area of the warp bubble itself microscopically small, while at the same time expanding the spatial volume inside the bubble (Tardis, here we come!). Not sure that can really be done, though, as there's a limit to how small of an area one can make (for instance, no particle can occupy a space smaller than its own wave-length).

    As for the Hawking radiation, I immediately had to think of the Genesis Project, as the Klingons no doubt would consider such a bubble coming to a halt a tremendous planet killer weapon! :)
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    Reading through the last couple of posts, I feel like I'm part of the Big Bang Theory-episode The Bat Jar Conjecture where even the janitor turned out to be a physicist.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited June 2021
    Singularity cores aren't silly at all - using an artificially created black hole is frequently mentioned throughout Isaac Arthur's videos as a power source, a propulsion system, a weapon or a source of gravity for artificial worlds (Like shell worlds), and the man does his research on every topic he does so I have no reason to doubt the validity of using an artificial black hole for any of those methods.​​


    Creating an artificial black hole is relatively easy (remember the fears about the Large Hadron Collider, a few years back?). Creating a usuable one, is a different matter altogether, though. You'd have to harness it, for one, and put an insane amount of energy/mass in first before you could extract useful energy from it (let's go with Hawking radiation, for a moment). And it should be big enough so it won't immediately evaporate. If so much energy is required to put in first, seems to me a silly thing to try and use.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    Reading through the last couple of posts, I feel like I'm part of the Big Bang Theory-episode The Bat Jar Conjecture where even the janitor turned out to be a physicist.

    And he bested Sheldon, at that. :P
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