that was every single instance the word transwarp was mentioned - clearly the Voyager scriptwriter for that episode considered warp and transwarp the same thing when they did it.
So what does this tell us? Well, it personally tells me that either A: The scriptwriter had absolutely no idea what they were doing (And given how the entire episode turned out, I'm going for this being the more likely option.) B: 'Transwarp' is just a catch-all term in-universe for any method of travel faster than the currently established warp scale, even if one of those faster methods is still technically plain warp.
Well throughout TNG, and the rest of VOY, transwarp is a treated as a specified method of travel, that has its own tunnels, drives/coils, and other specifics.
Quantum Slipstream is faster then Warp 10, but isn't Transwarp.
And how do you go faster than infinite speed? That is what warp 10 is, and more. It is instant travel from any point in the universe to any other point in the universe in literally and exactly zero time.
Threshold is one of those 'WTF were they thinking' blunders that is best ignored. Paris may have gone warp 9.999999999 to millions of decimal places of nines, and maybe even actually hit warp ten at some point (though if so why didn't the set the destination as Federation territory?), but there is no "breaking" it since there is nothing beyond infinite.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
that was every single instance the word transwarp was mentioned - clearly the Voyager scriptwriter for that episode considered warp and transwarp the same thing when they did it.
So what does this tell us? Well, it personally tells me that either A: The scriptwriter had absolutely no idea what they were doing (And given how the entire episode turned out, I'm going for this being the more likely option.) B: 'Transwarp' is just a catch-all term in-universe for any method of travel faster than the currently established warp scale, even if one of those faster methods is still technically plain warp.
Well throughout TNG, and the rest of VOY, transwarp is a treated as a specified method of travel, that has its own tunnels, drives/coils, and other specifics.
Quantum Slipstream is faster then Warp 10, but isn't Transwarp.
And how do you go faster than infinite speed? That is what warp 10 is, and more. It is instant travel from any point in the universe to any other point in the universe in literally and exactly zero time.
Threshold is one of those 'WTF were they thinking' blunders that is best ignored. Paris may have gone warp 9.999999999 to millions of decimal places of nines, and maybe even actually hit warp ten at some point (though if so why didn't the set the destination as Federation territory?), but there is no "breaking" it since there is nothing beyond infinite.
That was in one of the quotes I posted - they were TRYING to figure out how to exit warp 10 at a specific location, but then Paris flipped out, kidnapped the captain and made salamander babies with her.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
that was every single instance the word transwarp was mentioned - clearly the Voyager scriptwriter for that episode considered warp and transwarp the same thing when they did it.
So what does this tell us? Well, it personally tells me that either A: The scriptwriter had absolutely no idea what they were doing (And given how the entire episode turned out, I'm going for this being the more likely option.) B: 'Transwarp' is just a catch-all term in-universe for any method of travel faster than the currently established warp scale, even if one of those faster methods is still technically plain warp.
Well throughout TNG, and the rest of VOY, transwarp is a treated as a specified method of travel, that has its own tunnels, drives/coils, and other specifics.
Quantum Slipstream is faster then Warp 10, but isn't Transwarp.
And how do you go faster than infinite speed? That is what warp 10 is, and more. It is instant travel from any point in the universe to any other point in the universe in literally and exactly zero time.
Threshold is one of those 'WTF were they thinking' blunders that is best ignored. Paris may have gone warp 9.999999999 to millions of decimal places of nines, and maybe even actually hit warp ten at some point (though if so why didn't the set the destination as Federation territory?), but there is no "breaking" it since there is nothing beyond infinite.
That was in one of the quotes I posted - they were TRYING to figure out how to exit warp 10 at a specific location, but then Paris flipped out, kidnapped the captain and made salamander babies with her.
What they showed actually took some time though, warp 10 would not have any tunnel effects or look like anything else, just push the button and you are there instantly with no time passing whatsoever. The whole point of it was that Roddenberry was tired of people making up ever higher warp numbers and so they set an absolute hard limit on it by specifying that 10 is the fastest anyone can go by any method whatsoever (unless maybe for temporal where you get to the destination before you leave on the trip).
The in-universe reason has to do with the technological advancement towards programmable matter.
The actual reason... they wanted a fancy visual style for the 32nd century, that wasn't seen before in Trek - so that even the most average of joes can tell that there's something different about the future.
The spore drive is still utterly ridiculous, but it does a far better job of showing infinite (Or as close as you can ever get since infinity is unknowable, incalculable and unachievable.) speed than Threshold did - since a spore jump instantly takes you from one point to another from a relativity standpoint - time clearly passes for the Discovery crew every time they jump, but to the outside universe, they instantly move from one place to another.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
If it gets to the point that the means of propulsion aren't even "attached" to the ship why are they even dealing in solid structures like the hull? I think it's "future cool", and that's about it. If you want "future cool" why are they even relying on starships? They would lose most of the premise for the show if characters could travel individually with a warp bubble/transporter contained in something like a mobile emitter. Space walk.
The spore drive is still utterly ridiculous, but it does a far better job of showing infinite (Or as close as you can ever get since infinity is unknowable, incalculable and unachievable.) speed than Threshold did - since a spore jump instantly takes you from one point to another from a relativity standpoint - time clearly passes for the Discovery crew every time they jump, but to the outside universe, they instantly move from one place to another.
Ohh sure, Threshold was an abysmal episode in regards to everything it tried to do.....
Which is why I really want STO to do an episode about it, like they almost did for Delta Rising, to redeem it a bit.
I'd rather have CBS come out and declare that episode as non-canon.
Actually, I've just realized something. "Threshold" was the episode that got it wrong and "Discovery" is the series, because both were written without any acknowledgement of the Trek that came before. It was arrogant writing and really ignorant...Warp 10, Spore Drives, etc.
Honestly by the 32nd century I'd expect to see a battle which is just ships vomiting out of a replicator at each other, constantly trying to adjust and out-psych the opponent for the right tactical designs to blow past the other.
I'm disappointed in the future Federation's level of engineering tech, if you've got detached pieces you'd think you'd see ships like super Nebulas with modules slamming in and out at least for specific missions, given the limits on production are more about the number of FTL drives you have available.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
You'll probably be even more disappointed in 32nd century Humanity's level of engineering tech, then, or tech in general, for that matter - since most of the stuff shown in Star Trek, especially lately, is very unlikely to be possible to mimic in real life - I will be very surprised if we manage to move from railguns and relativistic kill missiles to any type of energy weapons as a mainline weapon a few millennia from now, never mind a few hundred years.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
You'll probably be even more disappointed in 32nd century Humanity's level of engineering tech, then, or tech in general, for that matter - since most of the stuff shown in Star Trek, especially lately, is very unlikely to be possible to mimic in real life - I will be very surprised if we manage to move from railguns and relativistic kill missiles to any type of energy weapons as a mainline weapon a few millennia from now, never mind a few hundred years.
I'm honestly not sure where real life tech progression comes into play in a fictional universe that steadfastly tries to ignore that their timeline starts with ion-drive spacecraft in the 1990s.
Fate - protects fools, small children, and ships named Enterprise Will Riker
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
Actually, I've just realized something. "Threshold" was the episode that got it wrong and "Discovery" is the series, because both were written without any acknowledgement of the Trek that came before. It was arrogant writing and really ignorant...Warp 10, Spore Drives, etc.
People complain about Enterprise messing with continuity, but it has nothing on Discovery. The ridiculous detached warp nacelles are a case in point.
Living Witness is about 5 years after The Burn is said to have occurred in 3069...which kind of introduces a small plot hole - why was no one among the Kyrians talking about almost their entire supply of Dilithium having gone inert, and where did the Doctor manage to find a shuttle with a stock of what is now an incredibly rare commodity, even moreso than it was in pre-2290 years?
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
0
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,153Community Moderator
I don't see Warp 10 as such an impossible wall. Based on 24th Century knowledge, the power requirements, using 24th Century tech, reach near infinite to even touch Warp 10. Pretty sure by even the 29th Century they've solved that infinite requirement through advancements in technology. Again pointing back to a real world example, its like trying to have a P-51 Mustang break the sound barrier. The tech is just not there at that time.
We know it is possible in some timelines to break Warp 10. In All Good Things, Admiral Riker orders the Gal-X Enterprise-D to Warp 20. Yes it was a self contained alternate reality situation caused by the Anti-Time anomaly, but still... a Starship capable of reaching Warp 20 using what seems to be a more advanced, but still conventional Warp Drive.
The Spore Drive gets around that because its not a Warp Drive. Its completely different tech that doesn't run on the same rules as Warp Drive. So what if it runs on a special kind of space mushroom? Its no different from Slipstream or Borg Transwarp in being different from normal Warp Drive. It was an experiment in an alternate FTL Propulsion System, something Starfleet is actually willing to do as they did experiment with a Transwarp Drive "years later" in Star Trek 3.
Well, unless they managed to be one of the few species who achieved transwarp capability, I don't see what else they could have been using...unless the material that makes Quantum Slipstream travel possible is more common in the Delta quadrant than it is in the Alpha/Beta quadrants, or if their space lies within the region served by Underspace, maybe they use that, but I don't think it does.
And the Enterprise going warp 20 in AGT doesn't mean the warp 10 barrier was broken - it just means the Federation probably refactored the warp scale again, like they did between TOS and TNG.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
If warp 10 means that you are in fact simultaneously at all points in space, making it work properly should be a fairly simple matter. All you really need is a good cup of really hot tea to calculate the improbability levels.
And the point of detached nacelles is the same as the point of anything in starship design. It looks cool. That's pretty much it.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,153Community Moderator
If warp 10 means that you are in fact simultaneously at all points in space, making it work properly should be a fairly simple matter. All you really need is a good cup of really hot tea to calculate the improbability levels.
Eh... I'd rather say a quirky Timelord with a blue box.
I don't see Warp 10 as such an impossible wall. Based on 24th Century knowledge, the power requirements, using 24th Century tech, reach near infinite to even touch Warp 10. Pretty sure by even the 29th Century they've solved that infinite requirement through advancements in technology. Again pointing back to a real world example, its like trying to have a P-51 Mustang break the sound barrier. The tech is just not there at that time.
More like literally approaching the speed of light: an impossible wall, as mass starts to increase near infinitely, and so will your energy requirements for an ever-diminishing increase in speed. And 'infinite' something, like mass/energy, speed, etc, really per definition makes the goal unreachable, as even the universe itself does not consist of infinite matter/energy.
'Threshold' was really a ridiculous episode. Especially the part where their computer started downloading the star charts of the entire universe. All based on the notion, of course, that if you could in fact travel faster than light, you would instantly be aware of everything. Not Omniscient per se, but able to observe everything at once. (Which is still a far cry from being Omnipresent, mind you.) But time, as we know it, would have become meaningless. They should really scrap this Episode from canon: even for the usual third-Grade science stuff, the plot had too many holes -- and none of them were black.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,153Community Moderator
I don't think anyone disputes that Threshold was a bad episode.
IMO Warp 10 is only a wall in terms of standard Warp Drive, and like I said earlier, anything 10 and up is in the realm of Transwarp capability. Which the Federation of the 24th Century is not capable of yet.
Living Witness is about 5 years after The Burn is said to have occurred in 3069...which kind of introduces a small plot hole - why was no one among the Kyrians talking about almost their entire supply of Dilithium having gone inert, and where did the Doctor manage to find a shuttle with a stock of what is now an incredibly rare commodity, even moreso than it was in pre-2290 years?
Who says they(as them them specifically) were still using dilthium in that era? We know of several species who don't, though its rare to not.
It's also possible that the burn didn't affect as much of the galaxy as the Federation thought, we know that the entire Alpha and Beta quadrants were hit but maybe parts of the Delta and Gamma quadrants were unaffected?
You'll probably be even more disappointed in 32nd century Humanity's level of engineering tech, then, or tech in general, for that matter - since most of the stuff shown in Star Trek, especially lately, is very unlikely to be possible to mimic in real life - I will be very surprised if we manage to move from railguns and relativistic kill missiles to any type of energy weapons as a mainline weapon a few millennia from now, never mind a few hundred years.
I disagree. The thing most likely to stop humanities pursuit of a better way to kill other humans is a mass extinction event brought on by something that worked too well in the confines of this planet. I'd love to be wrong and see world peace "ruin" it though.
Comments
And how do you go faster than infinite speed? That is what warp 10 is, and more. It is instant travel from any point in the universe to any other point in the universe in literally and exactly zero time.
Threshold is one of those 'WTF were they thinking' blunders that is best ignored. Paris may have gone warp 9.999999999 to millions of decimal places of nines, and maybe even actually hit warp ten at some point (though if so why didn't the set the destination as Federation territory?), but there is no "breaking" it since there is nothing beyond infinite.
That was in one of the quotes I posted - they were TRYING to figure out how to exit warp 10 at a specific location, but then Paris flipped out, kidnapped the captain and made salamander babies with her.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
What they showed actually took some time though, warp 10 would not have any tunnel effects or look like anything else, just push the button and you are there instantly with no time passing whatsoever. The whole point of it was that Roddenberry was tired of people making up ever higher warp numbers and so they set an absolute hard limit on it by specifying that 10 is the fastest anyone can go by any method whatsoever (unless maybe for temporal where you get to the destination before you leave on the trip).
The in-universe reason has to do with the technological advancement towards programmable matter.
The actual reason... they wanted a fancy visual style for the 32nd century, that wasn't seen before in Trek - so that even the most average of joes can tell that there's something different about the future.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I'd rather have CBS come out and declare that episode as non-canon.
I'm disappointed in the future Federation's level of engineering tech, if you've got detached pieces you'd think you'd see ships like super Nebulas with modules slamming in and out at least for specific missions, given the limits on production are more about the number of FTL drives you have available.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I'm honestly not sure where real life tech progression comes into play in a fictional universe that steadfastly tries to ignore that their timeline starts with ion-drive spacecraft in the 1990s.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
People complain about Enterprise messing with continuity, but it has nothing on Discovery. The ridiculous detached warp nacelles are a case in point.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
We know it is possible in some timelines to break Warp 10. In All Good Things, Admiral Riker orders the Gal-X Enterprise-D to Warp 20. Yes it was a self contained alternate reality situation caused by the Anti-Time anomaly, but still... a Starship capable of reaching Warp 20 using what seems to be a more advanced, but still conventional Warp Drive.
The Spore Drive gets around that because its not a Warp Drive. Its completely different tech that doesn't run on the same rules as Warp Drive. So what if it runs on a special kind of space mushroom? Its no different from Slipstream or Borg Transwarp in being different from normal Warp Drive. It was an experiment in an alternate FTL Propulsion System, something Starfleet is actually willing to do as they did experiment with a Transwarp Drive "years later" in Star Trek 3.
And the Enterprise going warp 20 in AGT doesn't mean the warp 10 barrier was broken - it just means the Federation probably refactored the warp scale again, like they did between TOS and TNG.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And the point of detached nacelles is the same as the point of anything in starship design. It looks cool. That's pretty much it.
Eh... I'd rather say a quirky Timelord with a blue box.
More like literally approaching the speed of light: an impossible wall, as mass starts to increase near infinitely, and so will your energy requirements for an ever-diminishing increase in speed. And 'infinite' something, like mass/energy, speed, etc, really per definition makes the goal unreachable, as even the universe itself does not consist of infinite matter/energy.
'Threshold' was really a ridiculous episode. Especially the part where their computer started downloading the star charts of the entire universe. All based on the notion, of course, that if you could in fact travel faster than light, you would instantly be aware of everything. Not Omniscient per se, but able to observe everything at once. (Which is still a far cry from being Omnipresent, mind you.) But time, as we know it, would have become meaningless. They should really scrap this Episode from canon: even for the usual third-Grade science stuff, the plot had too many holes -- and none of them were black.
IMO Warp 10 is only a wall in terms of standard Warp Drive, and like I said earlier, anything 10 and up is in the realm of Transwarp capability. Which the Federation of the 24th Century is not capable of yet.
It's also possible that the burn didn't affect as much of the galaxy as the Federation thought, we know that the entire Alpha and Beta quadrants were hit but maybe parts of the Delta and Gamma quadrants were unaffected?
I disagree. The thing most likely to stop humanities pursuit of a better way to kill other humans is a mass extinction event brought on by something that worked too well in the confines of this planet. I'd love to be wrong and see world peace "ruin" it though.