...uh, because this is Star Trek, and running your ship into/through/between all sorts of Negative Space Wedgies is part of daily life?
---
Meanwhile, all the series are full of many examples of needing to do things the backup/secondary/tertiary/manual way because Something Went Wrong. Having your engines (or anything else) floating out there by Space Magic, without any way to send repairmen/damage control/security via their feet, does not "make sense" in any kind of physics, or tactics, or anything else. Ditto with not having backup physical structure to keep your ship together in the event of catastrophic <whatever> disrupting your Ship Integrity Field™.
And no amount of "but, really, it's totally rational!" arguments will change that. It's solely because the showrunners thought it would be Cool & Future-y, not for any sane reasons. We're not drinking the kool-aid, you're not going to convince us that it's anything other than dumb.
Your entire argument is undermined by the ability to physically sever a pylon and cause a nacelle to float away.
The ship integrity field is irrelevant.
Floating nacelles or detached nacelles, the appropriate damage could separate the nacelle from the hull. Floaties have the advantage in that their tether is not directly targetable. Even when disrupted by an internal explosion (a fatal injury to a pylon) the nacelle recovers.
So actually floaties are more resilient than attached nacelles with vulnerable pylons.
Also you can send repair crews the same way they always do: transporters. Even better, personal transporters don’t require ship power to be online.
FYI disrupting ship power does not cause the nacelles to just float away.
I’ve already provided examples in real world physics that make this plausible to the standard of existing trek tech from older shows. So your decision to single DSC tech out is on you. Just screaming “it’s nonsense” into the void doesn’t change that the issue is with your choice and not the show and though you’re entitled to your choice your assertion that somehow detached nacelles are less plausible than other aspects of trek that you do accept is demonstrably wrong.
Actually Kiralyn isnt "Just screaming “it’s nonsense” into the void", their argument that the detached nacelles are just a cheesy "rule of cool" attempt on the part of Kurtzman's bunch to look "futuristic" that falls flat is quite valid.
And the argument that the nacelles are more vulnerable is true as well (by the conventions of at TNG at least). Struts (on ships that even have them, (the Crossfield doesn't, the nacelles attach directly to the secondary hull on the tips of the "wings" of the warp delta style secondary hull) are only vulnerable to weapons fire, and TOS Constitution style struts were said by Jefferies to be tougher to cut than slicing off a part of the saucer itself so it would make sense for the Federation to keep making them tough to cut off like that.
Technomagic non-material or interdimensional or whatever strut substitutes on the other hand would add a vulnerability to the kind of deflector dish tricks that TNG was so fond of to the weapons fire one (yes, the gaps may ignore weapons fire but the mechanisms keeping the subspace corridor or whatever in existence would be targetable just like engineering, weapons, or other system point targets. In fact, DSC showed how easily those systems can be damaged when the crew sabotaged them to force the ship out of warp, and an attacker would not have to stop with the small easily repaired damage that the crew did.
And the really sad part is that the most sensible way to justify the things, which is dynamic warp field shaping for speed and efficiency reasons like the movable sections of Romulan and Klingon ships (and Voyager) is mostly negated by their Kelvinesque treatment of warp like it was a Star Wars hyperdrive, especially since the nacelles don't seem to move much in DSC to make those field adjustments.
If they were actually able to fight in warp like all the other series did to some extent (everything but TOS just did it in chase situations) having those nacelles moving around would add to the visuals if they did the choreography well, but the current two-position thing adds nothing at all (except cheese factor).
Still, if you can hack or distort the power, thereby causing the nacelles to drift away - you can basically sabotage anything.
The argument that detached / power-dependent nacelles are less secure than those attached through physical means like metal or duranium, isn't very convincing.
Simply because if power failures were so easy to cause, you would soon have much bigger problems than just losing your engine. There's a huge potential antimatter bomb in the centre of your ship - as extensively debated - that could go off by firing a torpedo.
Fact is, power failures aren't easy to cause most of the time, hence why shields are so important and why we have series like Voyager where one of the highest ranking officers is dedicated to continuously stating the current shield percentage. Hence why taking down the shields is so important.
We also see evidence that proof the other part of that same coin - Even though the D's shields were down in Generations for example, that same movie shows how a relatively minor malfunctioning can cost you your ship anyway, regardless of whether your SIF is still functioning.
Seriously, physical components and structures or structural fields aren't all that important or even reliable either. Power-based defences are actually the most important and far more reliable, generally speaking.
Whatever drawbacks the design of detached nacelles have - Starfleet probably considered the benefits worth it, otherwise they woludn't have done so. Even if the writers don't know, there is nothing in the show that really suggests it's a problem.
On that note - pretty much the only time the nacelle pylons and the hull/saucer neck thing looks like a proper weakness appears to be the Star Trek Beyond.
But if you look at the scene in Star Trek Beyond? Can you see any physical reason why those swarm fighters couldn't have done what they did and flown through the bridge or directly into the warp core?
I can't, really. But I think there was a reason they targeted the pylons and the neck. Kraal wanted prisoners (to eat/suck out their life or whatever he does, I think?). The areas with the least amount of people are the pylons and the neck. He ensured there would be plenty of people to capture afterwards.
Another point that the neck at least wasn't the weakest point on the ship -the place he cuts through is different from the one the saucer separation system detaches, and it seems like this would be the logical spot for the weakest place of the connection.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Whatever drawbacks the design of detached nacelles have - Starfleet probably considered the benefits worth it, otherwise they woludn't have done so.
Yea... I believe it was stated that Discovery's maneuverability improved after her refit, which does make sense to me. Size and mass of the ship does affect hull stress levels when performing maneuvers. Its also one of the reasons why we never saw a Galaxy or Sovereign class perform the Picard Maneuver. They're just too big. The stress it would put on the hull would be immense. Smaller ships like a Constellation can pull it off more easily as there's less size and mass to deal with.
Whatever drawbacks the design of detached nacelles have - Starfleet probably considered the benefits worth it, otherwise they woludn't have done so.
Yea... I believe it was stated that Discovery's maneuverability improved after her refit, which does make sense to me. Size and mass of the ship does affect hull stress levels when performing maneuvers. Its also one of the reasons why we never saw a Galaxy or Sovereign class perform the Picard Maneuver. They're just too big. The stress it would put on the hull would be immense. Smaller ships like a Constellation can pull it off more easily as there's less size and mass to deal with.
I doubt the Picard maneuver would be any kind of problem for them from the stress standpoint (it is just a simple pulse forward), though a Galaxy's engines could have too much lag to perform it well or something, and the sudden increased glow from the exposed plasma ducts as it prepared to go to warp would spoiler the surprise of the maneuver.
Also, according to dialog the maneuver only works when you can knock the enemy FTL sensors offline, which appears to be something that cannot often be arranged.
Another example is that the warp pivot maneuver that the TOS Enterprise performed to hit the Orion intruder on the way to Babel did not seem to put undue strain on the system either, and the TOS Enterprise was much heavier in relation to its size compared to a Galaxy or other thin-skinned post-2270 ship due to its heavy armor.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
edited June 2021
I believe in the wargame between Hathaway and Enterprise, Riker did perform the maneuver, and it still looked like there were two ships for a moment. However Enterprise had Data, who was aware of the maneuver and can react much faster than anyone else, as well as Picard himself.
Also, while only Beta Canon, one of the Gateways novels does highlight the fact that larger ships cannot perform the Picard Maneuver, but smaller ships like the Saber, which Deanna Troi was given command of one for one of the battles, was more than capable.
Also I wouldn't say that the Galaxy class was thin skinned. While she was built in peacetime she was no slouch in combat. Galaxy class starships were basically used as battleships during the Dominion War. Enterprise was only taken out because of Soren taking advantage of Geordi's visor to get the shield harmonics frequency. The Duras Sisters were correct that in a stand up fight, their BoP was no match for a Galaxy class. And the Odyssey was only taken out because of the unknown that was Dominion weapons tech and their willingness to kamikaze a ship that was also very obviously retreating. Not only that, where Odyssey was rammed would have put a warp core breach virturally right next to the Odyssey's warp core, while also taking out multiple critical systems including the main deflector.
But overall it was generally accepted that a Galaxy class going full out was a force to be reckoned with. And after Wolf 359 that started to extend to the rest of Starfleet's designs thanks to the Borg.
Thin skinned does not mean helpless, for instance all of today's newer warships are thin skinned and depend on intercepting or dodging incoming fire with their improved radar, phalanx, missiles, and the superior maneuverability a lighter more efficient hull gives them.
Sometime between the late 2240s and 2270 Starfleet stopped making heavily armored ships the same way that the US did after WWII. In Starfleet's case it was because of improved shield technology that they felt was up to the job of protecting the ships without the disadvantages of very thick and heavy tritanium hulls like the earlier capital ships had (while there is only a very brief reference to that which can be interpreted in several ways in TMP itself they go into it more in the official novelization of the movie).
That reduced need for armor was also undoubtedly why ships started sprouting windows all over from the movie era onward. Notice that the "windows" on the TOS Constitution were fake (they were likely just sensor patches like the big square ones on the saucer dorsal side, arranged in an aesthetically pleasing window-line pattern) and places like the under-bridge and saucer rim conference rooms and the rec room which are obviously on the outer hull where they have those patches clearly have no windows there.
And on top of that, dialog in The Conscience of the King established that the ONLY windows on the ship that look out into space are the ones on the hanger catwalks (which by the way have airlocks between them and the rest of the ship, that is what the "coffin shaped" doors mean).
The only "thick skinned" ships shown in the TNG/DS9/VOY era were the Defiant class, and briefly the Voyager when it had its holomatter armor coat on.
I wish the effect was cooler and that it was even a universal console. That's such a shame about the earlier consoles, where they're bound to those ships. Voyager's Endgame deployment...gorgeous.
Thin skinned does not mean helpless, for instance all of today's newer warships are thin skinned and depend on intercepting or dodging incoming fire with their improved radar, phalanx, missiles, and the superior maneuverability a lighter more efficient hull gives them.
Sometime between the late 2240s and 2270 Starfleet stopped making heavily armored ships the same way that the US did after WWII. In Starfleet's case it was because of improved shield technology that they felt was up to the job of protecting the ships without the disadvantages of very thick and heavy tritanium hulls like the earlier capital ships had (while there is only a very brief reference to that which can be interpreted in several ways in TMP itself they go into it more in the official novelization of the movie).
That reduced need for armor was also undoubtedly why ships started sprouting windows all over from the movie era onward. Notice that the "windows" on the TOS Constitution were fake (they were likely just sensor patches like the big square ones on the saucer dorsal side, arranged in an aesthetically pleasing window-line pattern) and places like the under-bridge and saucer rim conference rooms and the rec room which are obviously on the outer hull where they have those patches clearly have no windows there.
And on top of that, dialog in The Conscience of the King established that the ONLY windows on the ship that look out into space are the ones on the hanger catwalks (which by the way have airlocks between them and the rest of the ship, that is what the "coffin shaped" doors mean).
The only "thick skinned" ships shown in the TNG/DS9/VOY era were the Defiant class, and briefly the Voyager when it had its holomatter armor coat on.
The Defiant and Prometheus had permanent ablative armour, almost like a paint job and then the Admiral's shuttle and Voyager had the deployable variety. It would have been interesting if the perk of some ships, instead of a console, had been stronger hull integrity, or if the Intrepid console just wasn't bound.
You know, that's another thing...why hasn't the ablative armor generator been rolled out to other ships post-2377? You'd think Starfleet would've been all over that, and by the 32nd century, it should be a standard piece of equipment, like a tractor beam.
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A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
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You know, that's another thing...why hasn't the ablative armor generator been rolled out to other ships post-2377? You'd think Starfleet would've been all over that, and by the 32nd century, it should be a standard piece of equipment, like a tractor beam.
I heard it was because the Borg had adapted to it, so they decided not to develop it...even though it was perfectly effective against the Klingons and should be to anyone else who couldn't adapt. It was an incredibly cool idea.
You know, that's another thing...why hasn't the ablative armor generator been rolled out to other ships post-2377? You'd think Starfleet would've been all over that, and by the 32nd century, it should be a standard piece of equipment, like a tractor beam.
Doesn't need an ablative armour generator be constantly fed with new material?
If the armour is ablated, something needs to replace it, right? Maybe it wasn't deemed cost-effective or something like that.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
For the 24th Century... most likely. For the 32nd... they probably overcame it or its already integrated into the hull without the need for visible generators. Hell... for all we know it is standard, we just don't see the ship encased in it like Voyager was.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Supposedly the Discoprise is bigger than the TOS one because of the inflation (the "light cruiser" Walker class is bigger than the TOS Enterprise because of Kurtzman and company's jumping on the "bigger is better" bandwagon), but even then the difference is not anywhere near big enough to fit an entire carrier flight deck and hangers, Gringots vault sized voids for the "mine car" style supposed turbolifts, and other nonsense.
And the designers of the Discoprise apparently never thought about what they were doing on an engineering level at all. As pointed out on Trekyards there is no possible way the decks could match up with the windows at the size DSC claims and other gaffs so it does not work out smoothly at any size.
One of the main reasons that kind of thing is popular in Hollywood is that with a big enough ship there is no need to think about how the model and the floorplan actually interact so they can slap down anything and say it fits in the hull somewhere. Plus they don't have to limit themselves to writing things using the current stages, they can make up anything they want on the fly to fit whatever they write instead of having to deal with a fixed floorplan.
The personal transporters in DSC are another symptom of that lazy way of designing and writing, with them they don't have to think about how to get from one part of the ship to the other and for example why in one episode they have to do something like race against time across the ship and use dangerous catwalks without rails over a giant fan to get from one location to another but in the next they just have to walk down a short corridor while talking.
And fans don't always like that careless handwaving. One of the big draws for the more tech oriented of the fans of Firefly was the fact that the floorplan was reasonable for the model instead of a generic thing that looks like the stage designers and model designers never met and never coordinated their efforts.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Supposedly the Discoprise is bigger than the TOS one because of the inflation (the "light cruiser" Walker class is bigger than the TOS Enterprise because of Kurtzman and company's jumping on the "bigger is better" bandwagon), but even then the difference is not anywhere near big enough to fit an entire carrier flight deck and hangers, Gringots vault sized voids for the "mine car" style supposed turbolifts, and other nonsense.
And the designers of the Discoprise apparently never thought about what they were doing on an engineering level at all. As pointed out on Trekyards there is no possible way the decks could match up with the windows at the size DSC claims and other gaffs so it does not work out smoothly at any size.
One of the main reasons that kind of thing is popular in Hollywood is that with a big enough ship there is no need to think about how the model and the floorplan actually interact so they can slap down anything and say it fits in the hull somewhere. Plus they don't have to limit themselves to writing things using the current stages, they can make up anything they want on the fly to fit whatever they write instead of having to deal with a fixed floorplan.
And fans don't always like that careless handwaving. One of the big draws for the more tech oriented of the fans of Firefly was the fact that the floorplan was reasonable for the model instead of a generic thing that looks like the stage designers and model designers never met and never coordinated their efforts.
I officially love you calling it the "Discoprise"...that's gold :-)
In Picard, I never got a true impression of how big or what the arrangement was of the La Sirena. I know that a lot of people think that Prometheus was massive in comparison to Voyager, but it had exactly the same 15 decks. And it always surprised me how there could be 50 Maquis on the Val Jean...it would have been incredible to see how the ship was setup inside.
Star Trek in 2021...it just doesn't have the attention to detail. In the 80's and 90's, Michael Okuda and others spent thousands of hours creating technical manuals and having the ships make sense, but then JJ and Disco dismissed those things as being irrelevant. It really is style over substance.
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Instead they have a army of R2D2 ripoffs repairing the ship
No care in the world about if that kind of technology existed back then and why didn't it exist in the later 23rd to 24th century? Like holocoms, replicators, and other things.
They can say all they want but you know it's painfully obvious that NuTrek doesn't exist in the prime timeline, it literally has nothing in common while it does have a lot in common with the much different Kelvin timeline. I mean do they expect us to believe the Vulcans would move to a new homeworld because of reunification with the Romulans? But I guess some people will accept everything they're told without question.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Instead they have a army of R2D2 ripoffs repairing the ship
No care in the world about if that kind of technology existed back then and why didn't it exist in the later 23rd to 24th century? Like holocoms, replicators, and other things.
They can say all they want but you know it's painfully obvious that NuTrek doesn't exist in the prime timeline, it literally has nothing in common while it does have a lot in common with the much different Kelvin timeline. I mean do they expect us to believe the Vulcans would move to a new homeworld because of reunification with the Romulans? But I guess some people will accept everything they're told without question.
I can't bring myself to Google who actually designed them, but they look so familiar that I'm surprised Disney didn't sue. And then in one of the dreadful prequels, the actual R2D2 appeared that way for the first time...again, it was too on the nose. If they'd even used their own creation and had an early model Exocomp, then that would have been something, but they're just lifting constantly from Star Wars.
In fact, maybe Disney is building a dossier and will just hit CBS with a back-breaking lawsuit.
When 60-years of your own franchise gives you so much room to manoeuvre, why tread on anyone else's toes?
Now, maybe I'm in the minority to not find Detached Warp Nacelles cool, or to believe the "science" behind them, but I personally believe that the whole point of Disco creating them, is to use more CGI.
I can't think of any other reason for pieces of a hull to be floating away from the rest of the ship, (especially the Janeway, with the saucer floating free) and you are not telling me that there's some sort of beam that could hit those gaps...Tachyon, Antithoron, Radion, Polaron, Antichroniton that could disrupt that weird matter and send the pieces flying off.
If I were the bad guy and saw that design, my entire purpose in an attack would be to do exactly that and you're not telling me that someone wouldn't succeed. It's a vulnerability, with a Producer Driven reason behind it.
In my humble opinion.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Instead they have a army of R2D2 ripoffs repairing the ship
No care in the world about if that kind of technology existed back then and why didn't it exist in the later 23rd to 24th century? Like holocoms, replicators, and other things.
They can say all they want but you know it's painfully obvious that NuTrek doesn't exist in the prime timeline, it literally has nothing in common while it does have a lot in common with the much different Kelvin timeline. I mean do they expect us to believe the Vulcans would move to a new homeworld because of reunification with the Romulans? But I guess some people will accept everything they're told without question.
I can't bring myself to Google who actually designed them, but they look so familiar that I'm surprised Disney didn't sue. And then in one of the dreadful prequels, the actual R2D2 appeared that way for the first time...again, it was too on the nose. If they'd even used their own creation and had an early model Exocomp, then that would have been something, but they're just lifting constantly from Star Wars.
In fact, maybe Disney is building a dossier and will just hit CBS with a back-breaking lawsuit.
When 60-years of your own franchise gives you so much room to manoeuvre, why tread on anyone else's toes?
If you pay attention to Discovery there is a LOT of things they rip off, but Kurtzman married into Hollywood royalty which is why he gets away with everything he does and why he gets all the work he does despite being flat out not talented. He has overseen the downfall of multiple franchises...he killed the Dark Universe in a single movie...yet he keeps getting work her doesn't deserve because of nepotism.
He literally had a plagiarism lawsuit that was kept completely out of all mainstream media because they were able to completely keep it hidden suppress it.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
0
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
Guys... can we put the pitchforks that are inching up over showrunners and ship sizes back in the shed?
Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
Well, a lot of series and films these days are just vehicles for "actors", who usually can't act, but look good on the red carpet, sell calendars and make tabloid fodder. That they're panned, shamed, cancelled and condemned doesn't really matter, as long as the person has been put in the spotlight for long enough to either move them up the ladder or fulfil the promise made on the couch.
Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
A rant is a rant. And fanaticism is fanaticism.
It's no wonder the dwindling level of actors/filmakers and gamemakers are no longer interacting with 'fans'.
People can only take so much vitriol, before they stop interacting.
I think once people start realising nobody 'owes' you anything. The less offended they will be.
You have a free game. You have free ships. You have 'A class' actors from the actual Star Trek Franchise, and all of the missions/content, offered to you, completely free.
What exactly is there to be angry about. If it is free?
Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
A rant is a rant. And fanaticism is fanaticism.
It's no wonder the dwindling level of actors/filmakers and gamemakers are no longer interacting with 'fans'.
People can only take so much vitriol, before they stop interacting.
I think once people start realising nobody 'owes' you anything. The less offended they will be.
You have a free game. You have free ships. You have 'A class' actors from the actual Star Trek Franchise, and all of the missions/content, offered to you, completely free.
What exactly is there to be angry about. If it is free?
Yup...it's the fans fault the show is performing terribly! Damn fans...how could they ruin the show?
Its the people who have no control over the show and nothing to do with horrible leadership and poor writing! Bad fans...bad bad fans!
Thanks for the laugh!
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
Fact is he has 2 scripted shows on the CBS network, both are at the bottom of the ratings for scripted shows. That right there shows the level of talent and leadership skill he has.
A rant is a rant. And fanaticism is fanaticism.
It's no wonder the dwindling level of actors/filmakers and gamemakers are no longer interacting with 'fans'.
People can only take so much vitriol, before they stop interacting.
I think once people start realising nobody 'owes' you anything. The less offended they will be.
You have a free game. You have free ships. You have 'A class' actors from the actual Star Trek Franchise, and all of the missions/content, offered to you, completely free.
What exactly is there to be angry about. If it is free?
Yup...it's the fans fault the show is performing terribly! Damn fans...how could they ruin the show?
Its the people who have no control over the show and nothing to do with horrible leadership and poor writing! Bad fans...bad bad fans!
Thanks for the laugh!
Oh you are very welcome. No doubt your enormous feelings of self entitlement, have earned you a laugh.
Comments
Actually Kiralyn isnt "Just screaming “it’s nonsense” into the void", their argument that the detached nacelles are just a cheesy "rule of cool" attempt on the part of Kurtzman's bunch to look "futuristic" that falls flat is quite valid.
And the argument that the nacelles are more vulnerable is true as well (by the conventions of at TNG at least). Struts (on ships that even have them, (the Crossfield doesn't, the nacelles attach directly to the secondary hull on the tips of the "wings" of the warp delta style secondary hull) are only vulnerable to weapons fire, and TOS Constitution style struts were said by Jefferies to be tougher to cut than slicing off a part of the saucer itself so it would make sense for the Federation to keep making them tough to cut off like that.
Technomagic non-material or interdimensional or whatever strut substitutes on the other hand would add a vulnerability to the kind of deflector dish tricks that TNG was so fond of to the weapons fire one (yes, the gaps may ignore weapons fire but the mechanisms keeping the subspace corridor or whatever in existence would be targetable just like engineering, weapons, or other system point targets. In fact, DSC showed how easily those systems can be damaged when the crew sabotaged them to force the ship out of warp, and an attacker would not have to stop with the small easily repaired damage that the crew did.
And the really sad part is that the most sensible way to justify the things, which is dynamic warp field shaping for speed and efficiency reasons like the movable sections of Romulan and Klingon ships (and Voyager) is mostly negated by their Kelvinesque treatment of warp like it was a Star Wars hyperdrive, especially since the nacelles don't seem to move much in DSC to make those field adjustments.
If they were actually able to fight in warp like all the other series did to some extent (everything but TOS just did it in chase situations) having those nacelles moving around would add to the visuals if they did the choreography well, but the current two-position thing adds nothing at all (except cheese factor).
The argument that detached / power-dependent nacelles are less secure than those attached through physical means like metal or duranium, isn't very convincing.
Simply because if power failures were so easy to cause, you would soon have much bigger problems than just losing your engine. There's a huge potential antimatter bomb in the centre of your ship - as extensively debated - that could go off by firing a torpedo.
Fact is, power failures aren't easy to cause most of the time, hence why shields are so important and why we have series like Voyager where one of the highest ranking officers is dedicated to continuously stating the current shield percentage. Hence why taking down the shields is so important.
We also see evidence that proof the other part of that same coin - Even though the D's shields were down in Generations for example, that same movie shows how a relatively minor malfunctioning can cost you your ship anyway, regardless of whether your SIF is still functioning.
Seriously, physical components and structures or structural fields aren't all that important or even reliable either. Power-based defences are actually the most important and far more reliable, generally speaking.
On that note - pretty much the only time the nacelle pylons and the hull/saucer neck thing looks like a proper weakness appears to be the Star Trek Beyond.
But if you look at the scene in Star Trek Beyond? Can you see any physical reason why those swarm fighters couldn't have done what they did and flown through the bridge or directly into the warp core?
I can't, really. But I think there was a reason they targeted the pylons and the neck. Kraal wanted prisoners (to eat/suck out their life or whatever he does, I think?). The areas with the least amount of people are the pylons and the neck. He ensured there would be plenty of people to capture afterwards.
Another point that the neck at least wasn't the weakest point on the ship -the place he cuts through is different from the one the saucer separation system detaches, and it seems like this would be the logical spot for the weakest place of the connection.
Yea... I believe it was stated that Discovery's maneuverability improved after her refit, which does make sense to me. Size and mass of the ship does affect hull stress levels when performing maneuvers. Its also one of the reasons why we never saw a Galaxy or Sovereign class perform the Picard Maneuver. They're just too big. The stress it would put on the hull would be immense. Smaller ships like a Constellation can pull it off more easily as there's less size and mass to deal with.
I doubt the Picard maneuver would be any kind of problem for them from the stress standpoint (it is just a simple pulse forward), though a Galaxy's engines could have too much lag to perform it well or something, and the sudden increased glow from the exposed plasma ducts as it prepared to go to warp would spoiler the surprise of the maneuver.
Also, according to dialog the maneuver only works when you can knock the enemy FTL sensors offline, which appears to be something that cannot often be arranged.
Another example is that the warp pivot maneuver that the TOS Enterprise performed to hit the Orion intruder on the way to Babel did not seem to put undue strain on the system either, and the TOS Enterprise was much heavier in relation to its size compared to a Galaxy or other thin-skinned post-2270 ship due to its heavy armor.
Also, while only Beta Canon, one of the Gateways novels does highlight the fact that larger ships cannot perform the Picard Maneuver, but smaller ships like the Saber, which Deanna Troi was given command of one for one of the battles, was more than capable.
Also I wouldn't say that the Galaxy class was thin skinned. While she was built in peacetime she was no slouch in combat. Galaxy class starships were basically used as battleships during the Dominion War. Enterprise was only taken out because of Soren taking advantage of Geordi's visor to get the shield harmonics frequency. The Duras Sisters were correct that in a stand up fight, their BoP was no match for a Galaxy class. And the Odyssey was only taken out because of the unknown that was Dominion weapons tech and their willingness to kamikaze a ship that was also very obviously retreating. Not only that, where Odyssey was rammed would have put a warp core breach virturally right next to the Odyssey's warp core, while also taking out multiple critical systems including the main deflector.
But overall it was generally accepted that a Galaxy class going full out was a force to be reckoned with. And after Wolf 359 that started to extend to the rest of Starfleet's designs thanks to the Borg.
Sometime between the late 2240s and 2270 Starfleet stopped making heavily armored ships the same way that the US did after WWII. In Starfleet's case it was because of improved shield technology that they felt was up to the job of protecting the ships without the disadvantages of very thick and heavy tritanium hulls like the earlier capital ships had (while there is only a very brief reference to that which can be interpreted in several ways in TMP itself they go into it more in the official novelization of the movie).
That reduced need for armor was also undoubtedly why ships started sprouting windows all over from the movie era onward. Notice that the "windows" on the TOS Constitution were fake (they were likely just sensor patches like the big square ones on the saucer dorsal side, arranged in an aesthetically pleasing window-line pattern) and places like the under-bridge and saucer rim conference rooms and the rec room which are obviously on the outer hull where they have those patches clearly have no windows there.
And on top of that, dialog in The Conscience of the King established that the ONLY windows on the ship that look out into space are the ones on the hanger catwalks (which by the way have airlocks between them and the rest of the ship, that is what the "coffin shaped" doors mean).
The only "thick skinned" ships shown in the TNG/DS9/VOY era were the Defiant class, and briefly the Voyager when it had its holomatter armor coat on.
That was actually ablative armour:
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ablative_generator
I wish the effect was cooler and that it was even a universal console. That's such a shame about the earlier consoles, where they're bound to those ships. Voyager's Endgame deployment...gorgeous.
The Defiant and Prometheus had permanent ablative armour, almost like a paint job and then the Admiral's shuttle and Voyager had the deployable variety. It would have been interesting if the perk of some ships, instead of a console, had been stronger hull integrity, or if the Intrepid console just wasn't bound.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I heard it was because the Borg had adapted to it, so they decided not to develop it...even though it was perfectly effective against the Klingons and should be to anyone else who couldn't adapt. It was an incredibly cool idea.
Doesn't need an ablative armour generator be constantly fed with new material?
If the armour is ablated, something needs to replace it, right? Maybe it wasn't deemed cost-effective or something like that.
To be stupid? I mean that feels like the whole point of NuTrek...to be as stupid as possible and just throw everything Star Trek "was" out the window.
There is no logical reason for them to be detached...they would be a hazard...eat power that doesn't need to be used, and if the ship loses power to that system it would just float apart. But we know that wont happen since the show has zero stakes or consequences of any level at all for Burnham...plot armor is so thick that Discovery and Enterprise took on literally a whole fleet of ships and only took scratches. Total absolute stupidity.
It is so funny, because in the JJ-Verse, he couldn't wreck and ruin the ships hard and fast enough. In Disco, the ships survive the odds, but in previous series, they were never invincible. The Defiant took its knocked, but it was specifically designed for that. Warp got knocked off (it only ever used to take one shot in early Voyager episodes for that to happen), weapons too and it felt more believable that when you were being overwhelmed, there were some real consequences.
An episode I really enjoyed was "Dragon's Teeth" and Voyager having to hide on the planet and then the incredible cool (and I believe first ever use?) beam fire at will when they're trying to escape the Vaudwaar.
It was always annoying that in ENT, the ship was standing up to things. Polarized Hull Plating has a lot to answer for and I would have preferred the ship to look like that alternate future version of itself between Earth repair jobs.
I'm not convinced we'll ever get an explanation for the Disco Enterprise's launching all those hundreds of shuttles...when it physically couldn't have had more than about four inside, but back to the point...detached anything just doesn't make sense to me. If turbolifts were down (or how they even travel through the missing parts to begin with) or if that matter is a material, then why not have the whole ship made out of it? If it's a substance like duranium, then why only use a little bit? And if it is powered like electric glass or a WiFi single, then losing power or something interrupting it would have to be a disaster waiting to happen.
No logic or reason to it, they basically think every ship is a tardis...they had shuttles flying about inside the ship...miles of turbolifts and tubes. basically the only thing I can think of is the writers basically write anything that pops into their head without any filter...no matter how stupid it is.
If they'd made the Enterprise JJ-Verse Dreadnought size, then I would have swallowed it...but it's the same size as the original Constitution. It's not physically possible to have fit all of those shuttles inside!
Honestly, it would have been cooler and more believable if all the ship's escape pods had launched, which according to schematics, do have phaser banks. That would have been terrific and something we'd never seen.
Supposedly the Discoprise is bigger than the TOS one because of the inflation (the "light cruiser" Walker class is bigger than the TOS Enterprise because of Kurtzman and company's jumping on the "bigger is better" bandwagon), but even then the difference is not anywhere near big enough to fit an entire carrier flight deck and hangers, Gringots vault sized voids for the "mine car" style supposed turbolifts, and other nonsense.
And the designers of the Discoprise apparently never thought about what they were doing on an engineering level at all. As pointed out on Trekyards there is no possible way the decks could match up with the windows at the size DSC claims and other gaffs so it does not work out smoothly at any size.
One of the main reasons that kind of thing is popular in Hollywood is that with a big enough ship there is no need to think about how the model and the floorplan actually interact so they can slap down anything and say it fits in the hull somewhere. Plus they don't have to limit themselves to writing things using the current stages, they can make up anything they want on the fly to fit whatever they write instead of having to deal with a fixed floorplan.
The personal transporters in DSC are another symptom of that lazy way of designing and writing, with them they don't have to think about how to get from one part of the ship to the other and for example why in one episode they have to do something like race against time across the ship and use dangerous catwalks without rails over a giant fan to get from one location to another but in the next they just have to walk down a short corridor while talking.
And fans don't always like that careless handwaving. One of the big draws for the more tech oriented of the fans of Firefly was the fact that the floorplan was reasonable for the model instead of a generic thing that looks like the stage designers and model designers never met and never coordinated their efforts.
I officially love you calling it the "Discoprise"...that's gold :-)
In Picard, I never got a true impression of how big or what the arrangement was of the La Sirena. I know that a lot of people think that Prometheus was massive in comparison to Voyager, but it had exactly the same 15 decks. And it always surprised me how there could be 50 Maquis on the Val Jean...it would have been incredible to see how the ship was setup inside.
Star Trek in 2021...it just doesn't have the attention to detail. In the 80's and 90's, Michael Okuda and others spent thousands of hours creating technical manuals and having the ships make sense, but then JJ and Disco dismissed those things as being irrelevant. It really is style over substance.
Instead they have a army of R2D2 ripoffs repairing the ship
No care in the world about if that kind of technology existed back then and why didn't it exist in the later 23rd to 24th century? Like holocoms, replicators, and other things.
They can say all they want but you know it's painfully obvious that NuTrek doesn't exist in the prime timeline, it literally has nothing in common while it does have a lot in common with the much different Kelvin timeline. I mean do they expect us to believe the Vulcans would move to a new homeworld because of reunification with the Romulans? But I guess some people will accept everything they're told without question.
I can't bring myself to Google who actually designed them, but they look so familiar that I'm surprised Disney didn't sue. And then in one of the dreadful prequels, the actual R2D2 appeared that way for the first time...again, it was too on the nose. If they'd even used their own creation and had an early model Exocomp, then that would have been something, but they're just lifting constantly from Star Wars.
In fact, maybe Disney is building a dossier and will just hit CBS with a back-breaking lawsuit.
When 60-years of your own franchise gives you so much room to manoeuvre, why tread on anyone else's toes?
If you pay attention to Discovery there is a LOT of things they rip off, but Kurtzman married into Hollywood royalty which is why he gets away with everything he does and why he gets all the work he does despite being flat out not talented. He has overseen the downfall of multiple franchises...he killed the Dark Universe in a single movie...yet he keeps getting work her doesn't deserve because of nepotism.
He literally had a plagiarism lawsuit that was kept completely out of all mainstream media because they were able to completely keep it hidden suppress it.
Well, a lot of series and films these days are just vehicles for "actors", who usually can't act, but look good on the red carpet, sell calendars and make tabloid fodder. That they're panned, shamed, cancelled and condemned doesn't really matter, as long as the person has been put in the spotlight for long enough to either move them up the ladder or fulfil the promise made on the couch.
A rant is a rant. And fanaticism is fanaticism.
It's no wonder the dwindling level of actors/filmakers and gamemakers are no longer interacting with 'fans'.
People can only take so much vitriol, before they stop interacting.
I think once people start realising nobody 'owes' you anything. The less offended they will be.
You have a free game. You have free ships. You have 'A class' actors from the actual Star Trek Franchise, and all of the missions/content, offered to you, completely free.
What exactly is there to be angry about. If it is free?
Yup...it's the fans fault the show is performing terribly! Damn fans...how could they ruin the show?
Its the people who have no control over the show and nothing to do with horrible leadership and poor writing! Bad fans...bad bad fans!
Thanks for the laugh!
Oh you are very welcome. No doubt your enormous feelings of self entitlement, have earned you a laugh.