If it turned up in the c-store I would buy it in a heartbeat just because it's the closest to the TMP enterprise I'll ever be able to afford (the temporal TOS Connie will always be out of my price range).
If you're running your ship via direct neural interface, making it two miles long isn't "amazing" or "ludicrous", it's stupid. Two key factors of such a method: You don't need to move to a particular part of the ship to do your job, and you don't need as many people to do various jobs. In that case, you're building this huge, intensely vulnerable mass of starship just because you can. And that's a dumb reason to do anything, especially when you're engaged in a war with the Sphere Builders for the future of all life in the universe.
Look, Drexler, I've been reading this stuff all my life, and I ain't young. Mere size doesn't impress me - even the Ent-J is tiny compared with, say, the Rama. And as Pournelle pointed out in those CoDominium stories set after the fall of the First Empire of Man, the reason you build big ships and employ lots of people aboard them is because you need those people to run the systems, because you don't have the computer technology to automate them. And you have even more people aboard so that when someone gets killed during a battle, you have another person to replace them, because you can't call time out and go get more crew right then. The Ent-J only makes even a vague kind of sense if the future Federation is so afraid of AI that they don't automate anything if it can be avoided, or if it's one of a small handful of craft deployed as the center of a massive battle group composed of smaller craft like (future versions of) Galaxy- and Sao Paulo-class ships. If it's a sort of forward battle station, a starbase with warp drive, then yeah, I'll grant you that maybe there would be a place for say half a dozen of them during a really intense war. Then you'd retire them to stationary positions between wars, because they're hellishly expensive to operate, to the point that even a post-scarcity economy would take notice.
Basically, Star Wars to the contrary, bigger isn't better. As some folk say even today, it's not how big your ship is, it's what you can do with it that counts. (And remember, the Voyager was nearly destroyed by a time-traveling starship about the size of a Delta Flyer. Now that's impressive future technology!)
If they add the Disco Enterprise to the game it could be a skin, or it could be another rare hard-to-find ship we need to gamble on loot boxes to get.
I'm guessing the latter, so they can get people who already have a Connie to keep buying.
R&D gamble box ship to milk it as much as possible with the next disco box being a selection of "less desirable" ships, probably escorts unless the new ep wants to wean the game away from escorts online.
Well that's hardly a good example for your argument since the planet is clearly reflecting an orange-yellow light.
It was the best ACTUAL screenshot I could find from 2010. But I do remember it wasn't reflecting because there were shots where you could CLEARLY see it was ruddy all over and not just on whatever side was facing anything.
Maybe it is because TOS was released decades before I was born, but all those Connies look the same to me. Do we really need another one?
I'm more interested in C-store Discovery/Science Spearhead class ships - even if they're weaker than the Lock box ones (I know, it's unlikely to happen, but one can hope).
Maybe they could make some Saurian or Kelpian ships too.
we only saw frontier klingons in TOS - i.e. the same type of klingons like those that come from a colony world
we never saw any klingons from core systems, so we have no idea if those were affected or not - but discovery seems to think they weren't, because so far, every klingon shown has had ridges
This is headcanon, reasonable headcanon, but still headcanon none the less.
Both DSC and ID are canon, not head-canon. Both show TOS era Klingons with ridges. Therefore not all Klingons were affected. You can fill in your own ideas as to why.
All they need to do is increase the scale of the TOS and TMP versions to match.
As the Conni was the single and only example of a TOS Starship (all the other ones were cargo ships of various sorts) it never appeared alongside any other ship well enough to get a scale. There's also the shuttlebay which is sodding huge! Considering people seem to think the KT Conni is Galaxy sized for the single reason of the shuttlebay (but not Voyager that also has a shuttlebay too big for it) then just scale up the TOS Conni.
Well... the issue also comes up with the fact that apparently the "official" size for the Kelvin Connie was given by the powers that be. And yet the details clearly indicate a ship closer to the size of the TOS Connie. Maybe slightly bigger.
Hell... the hull details put her at a more realistic 366 meters. The ONLY thing that scales her up is the shuttlebay scene in Earth orbit. Which shrinks when Pike takes a shuttle out over Vulcan.
People only make a thing about it for the KT Conni for some reason. Like I say, the TOS Conni, Voyager, and the Defiant all have shuttlebays that can't fit in models at the scales given. Even the official 170m length of the Defiant (as opposed to the more reasonable onscreen size of between 100-150m) is too shallow to fit one.
But the shuttlebay isn't the only thing any more. The windows in BEY contain more decks than they did in ID (three to the previous two) meaning that the KT Conni and the DSC Conni are of whatever scale any particular effects guy wants them to be.
It's also worth noting that the KT Conni doesn't have an official size listed in the Official Starship Collection whereas both the Franklin and Kelvin do (The Kelvin is officially 315m long which is a long way off from the Blue-Ray size of 457m).
I suspect that in future, all seven versions of the Conni might be fudged to be about 450ish metres and call it a day.
Obviously that's not going to please fans who argue about the exact shade of grey used on the DS9 uniforms vs. the VGR uniforms but it'll probably do for the effects guys.
The shuttlbay of the TOS Constitution class actually DOES fit, and if I recall correctly the movie refit one is not too far off. The only one that blatantly does not fit at all (at the outer detail 366 meter scale) is the Kelvin one (which is not surprising, the beer factory they use for engineering in the 2009 film probably does not fit either). Remember, the TOS Enterprise is the length of a 1960s era aircraft carrier so it does have some room. The only possible problem is hanger space, Galileo 7 implies that they have at least seven of the S3 (I forget what TNG called the TOS shuttles at the moment, but the old name works) shuttles but they would be hard pressed to have more than four unless some are packed up in other parts of the ship. Having only two or four actually makes sense since the shuttlebay is the Federation equivalent of the two seaplanes the larger of the WWII cruisers often carried or the two helicopters of the Arliegh Burke heavy missile destroyer of today.
One other thing that is often pointed out is that if the JJPrise is the huge official size then the bridge window would be two decks high, and closeup shots of it from the outside show that that is simply not so.
The ENT episodes dealing with the augment plague imply that not all of the population was effected, so in theory there would be both speedbumps and human-looking Klingons during the TOS era. The lizard and "butter-face" Klingons shown in DSC (both on the finished show and in the early photo leaks) and Kelvin universe are something entirely out of left field. And it is not just a matter of looks, if DSC is merged into the mainline TOS/TNG line then the Klingons have THREE entirely different cultures running at the same time, at least two of which are implied to be the only one in existance.
A good theory about why only augment-virus Klingons are seen in TOS revolves around the feudal-like house fleet structure in the KDF. We only see a few ship crews in TOS, and the crews tend not to mix the Kang and Kor types much less ridged and no-ridged, which implies that they were probably all from one or two house fleets attached to the KDF, and it is not unreasonable to assume that some houses were more susceptible to the virus than others. Another factor could be that most of the encounters were with Klingons in the neutral zone where skill in subterfuge and subtlety, (and looking more like the locals) is an advantage, and those traits are exactly a hallmark feature of the ridgehead Klingons.
In TOS the Klingons had an almost Orwellian surveillance culture, and a major plot point in "Errand of Mercy" hinged on that fact. In ENT and TNG they were shown with a rather naïve warrior culture. Neither one of them seemed particularly concerned with the dead except for TNG's "space Viking" mythology, and in TNG it was explicitly stated that once the warrior's spirit leaves the body left behind is nothing (the impression from the scene is that they might even just throw them in a dumpster). Then comes DSC with their almost fanatical tomb culture that completely flies in the face of the others.
It is possible to reconcile the TOS and the TNG/ENT cultures because they mention the augment virus produced neurological differences and it is possible that the ridgehead majority simply did not trust the non-ridgeheads, resulting in the surveillance culture the human-looking ones live in in TOS, but it is not so easy to resolve the almost diametrically apposed death rites problem since DSC implies that it is the mainline Klingon culture instead of all that was shown before.
It was stated officially that the reason the DSC Klingons do not have any hair is that their ridge folds contain infrared sensor pits similar to some Terran snakes and lizards. Early leaked shots showed Klingons as far more lizard looking than the ones after the big reset that delayed the show for so long. Unfortunately they are still covered in an almost Erwin Allen-esque rubber monster amount of latex which distorts their speech and obscures any facial expressions which in turn makes for very boring aliens.
Getting back to the DSC Enterprise, it would probably work ok as just an outside skin with a default of one of the already existing round bridges since they generally have large viewscreens anyway which could substitute for the idiotic JJwindow in a pinch. I doubt CBS will ever show their version of the Enterprise's bridge since it would be almost a surefire way of killing the show for either the core fans who they are very busy trying to woo back, or the newer fans with their TOS-contempt viewpoint and they need to keep as many viewers as possible.
Well with todays announcement I hope they release a T6 discovery connie to the cstore, with the use of all the other costume options for it. Give it a diff layout from the temporal conny like a 4/4 weapon layout and diff boff slots. Then we can all be happy, those who want the more powerful ship can get temporal connie, and those who cant afford that insane cost can still spend some money to get the ship they want.
But honestly.... cryptic will just shove it in a lockbox... we all know it. Lockboxes are fine for some ships, i just dont think the Enterprise ships should be in them. Main show runner ships should be cstore.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,582Community Moderator
It is possible to reconcile the TOS and the TNG/ENT cultures because they mention the augment virus produced neurological differences and it is possible that the ridgehead majority simply did not trust the non-ridgeheads, resulting in the surveillance culture the human-looking ones live in in TOS, but it is not so easy to resolve the almost diametrically apposed death rites problem since DSC implies that it is the mainline Klingon culture instead of all that was shown before.
Well... it could be explained easily. Look at human culture. We have many different death rites stuff on Earth. Why would it be so difficult to believe that Klingons would be any different?
Borrowing on the "space Viking" thing, the respect that Klingons have for their dead is a lot like the respect that norsemen give to their dead in a way, like what was seen in The 13th Warrior.
And in a way... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mraO8JZbSkg
Seems to fit them, especially the Kahless following Klingons.
Both DSC and ID are canon, not head-canon. Both show TOS era Klingons with ridges. Therefore not all Klingons were affected. You can fill in your own ideas as to why.
ID is in an entirely separate timeline, that was affected all the way back to the Big Bang, by Nero's incursion. We don't even know if the Klingons ever worked with the Augment Virus in that timeline.
And yes, DSC actually went back and re-retconed ENT's mistake, however, if you had actually bothered to follow the conversation, you would know I was speaking about how ENT's choice back then introduced plot holes, not how the newest show which only aired years later bothered to fix them.
That's incorrect. The Kelvin Timeline takes affect from the destruction of the Kelvin in 2233. This is pointed out by Spock in 09.
As such we know that the events of ENT still happened as they predate 2233 an are referenced in BEY.
But if you'd bothered following the conversation you'd have learnt that the plot not relating to something is not a plot hole.
Both DSC and ID are canon, not head-canon. Both show TOS era Klingons with ridges. Therefore not all Klingons were affected. You can fill in your own ideas as to why.
ID is in an entirely separate timeline, that was affected all the way back to the Big Bang, by Nero's incursion. We don't even know if the Klingons ever worked with the Augment Virus in that timeline.
And yes, DSC actually went back and re-retconed ENT's mistake, however, if you had actually bothered to follow the conversation, you would know I was speaking about how ENT's choice back then introduced plot holes, not how the newest show which only aired years later bothered to fix them.
That's incorrect. The Kelvin Timeline takes affect from the destruction of the Kelvin in 2233. This is pointed out by Spock in 09.
As such we know that the events of ENT still happened as they predate 2233 an are referenced in BEY.
But if you'd bothered following the conversation you'd have learnt that the plot not relating to something is not a plot hole.
Well... at least for ships like Enterprise, the grungy look kinda makes sense as they have been in space for years. Its not like they can go through the Starship Wash every few lightyears.
Also... the gunmetal grey is a better leadup to the more grey hulls of TMP and TNG than the white, clean hulls of TOS. I kinda like the gunmetal grey. Makes it feel a bit more real to me. Like something that's seen action. Not something that just came out of the shipyard all sparkly clean and polished like a sports car.
Its a working ship. Not a display model.
Also a few of the changes to the Discovery Connie kinda address a few... structural issues in the TOS Connie. The nacelle pylons are wider, thus adding a bit more support, and the neck is a bit shorter and wider as well. She looks like she can take a hit better than her TOS counterpart, especially in those areas.
The actual large filming model of the Enterprise had grunge streaks in the original paint job representing its plowing through interstellar dust and gas, but when it was lit bright enough to film it without depth of focus problems the streaks did not show. The white finish was not supposed to be paint btw, in-setting it was supposed to be a superceramic coating to reflect heat and help keep the metal armor from getting abraded over time, if the ships did not have it they would have had the same grungy, rusty look as the Klingon ships that also use tritanium hulls but do not usually bother painting them. The pearlescent coating of the TMP Enterprise was supposed to be highest development of that technique but unfortunately the real-world model was difficult to light in the way the director wanted so they painted it over in boring flat white.
There are no structural issues with the TOS Enterprise, especially if you take the structural integrity fields and engine fields TNG made so much out of into account. In fact, considering the nine inches of very heavy tritanium armor that Roddenberry often mentioned the Enterprise has the bigger struts could add enough weight to make its own structural problems. Sure, the DSC ship looks sleeker but that was not an issue back when TOS was filmed since Star Wars was not there yet to make people think of aircraft and streamlining when looking at space-only ships.
On the other hand, the DSC ship does look nice except for the idiotic useless window in front in place of the actually useful viewscreen.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
It is possible to reconcile the TOS and the TNG/ENT cultures because they mention the augment virus produced neurological differences and it is possible that the ridgehead majority simply did not trust the non-ridgeheads, resulting in the surveillance culture the human-looking ones live in in TOS, but it is not so easy to resolve the almost diametrically apposed death rites problem since DSC implies that it is the mainline Klingon culture instead of all that was shown before.
Well... it could be explained easily. Look at human culture. We have many different death rites stuff on Earth. Why would it be so difficult to believe that Klingons would be any different?
Borrowing on the "space Viking" thing, the respect that Klingons have for their dead is a lot like the respect that norsemen give to their dead in a way, like what was seen in The 13th Warrior.
And in a way... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mraO8JZbSkg
Seems to fit them, especially the Kahless following Klingons.
True enough from a logical standpoint, but taking comparisons like the "space Viking" too far can be misleading as well. There is a scene in "Heart of Glory" which makes it clear that the Klingons have respect for the spirit and memory of the warrior, but none whatsoever for their body after the warrior leaves it for Sto-vo-kor:
That those Klingons feel that way. Some Humans throw themselves on coffins during huge funerals, weeping as though that would bring the fallen back to life. Others have placed the corpse on large platforms open to the sky, so that the spirit might return to the ancestors more easily and the body be consumed by scavengers. (Echoes of this can be seen today in certain Zoroastrian and Tibetan Buddhist groups, although it's believed the Tibetan Buddhists do this more as a matter of practicality - digging a grave in Tibet is not an easy process.) Still others, notably in the New Orleans area, feature elaborate processions to the internment site (in Louisiana, burial is frequently in a mausoleum, as the water table is just below the surface in many areas - indeed, above it in some), which turn into wild celebrations of the life of the deceased after internment is complete.
I know Trek is frequently guilty of Planet of Hats syndrome, but let's not force them into it, yeah? If they want to finally decide that different Klingon cultural groups might have different funerary practices (and other practices - perhaps there's a group that thinks eating live gagh is disgusting), that's a good thing.
except SIF wasn't present in TOS, so there will be no taking into account of any such technology in regards to the original enterprise
I just say they had material and techniques that can make super, mega strong structures, despite looking frail.
I'm amazed at sci-fi fans who can't seem to help thinking their own limited ideas of current technology must apply to sci-fi design. That mindset isn't new, but it seems be much more common these days.
Let's apply some of the same anti-Connie views to something more real:
Look at that piece of junk. Thin rotors that would be easily shot off, the crew section forward placed behind weak transparent material, and all the important weapons are exposed on pylons where they can be hit by enemy fire before they're even launched!
How stupid.
Oh wait, that is actually the preeminent attack helicopter in the world, and each of those horrible weakness are required elements needed for the design to actually perform in it's role or even fly. And those rotors in real life can take quite impressive amounts of damage and still allow the bird to fly (I leave the google exercise of finding pictures of that type of damage to reader).
So, not so stupid after all.
The Connie should be looked at in the same way. The struts aren't frail and useless- they're required. Why? Who knows- this is fiction, make up a reason that pleases you. Personally these are my mind canon reasons:
The general layout of the ship is required as a result of the warp field produced by the specific model of Warp Drive used by the Connie. The entire design is optimized for that use. Same as a modern Aircraft carrier general design is optimized for its use.
Those struts (and perhaps the neck) are made of a material far denser and more robust than any other section on the ship to handle stress. That density is why they seem rather thin, you couldn't make them wider or thicker without vastly increasing mass and thus lowering performance. They are the sweet spot in design.
The ship Deflectors aren't called force fields for a reason. They *Defect*, i.e. incoming fire is deflected away from ideally the whole ship in whole or in part, or failing that away from the most critical portions.
There done. We have a nifty looking ship that can withstand repeated hits by a Doomsday machine that craves up planets for lunch.
Really, people should use their imagination. It isn't hard.
Really, people should use their imagination. It isn't hard.
This is painfully faulty reasoning. YOU do not make up the "fiction" in someone else's fiction.
The AUTHOR creates the "fiction". It is called "world building". It's a writing technique.
Any work of fiction goes like this: "This universe is just like OUR universe, except for _____". It is the author's JOB to fill in that blank. All WE can do, is assume that anything not directly explained works just like OUR universe. This is why we look at a fictional universe through a "real world" lens when we examine it's contents.
Having said all that, how important is it for the audience to know "why" the ship has the shape it has? All of these things are the result of telling a story. If giving out the exact technical specs of a ship is not important to a story, it will never be mentioned. Yes, there is world building within the confines of telling a story, but it is not the sole purpose of the story. We need to keep this in mind when we look at things inside the Star Trek universe.
> @jonsills said: > Hangin' round > The shipyard at ESD, > And I had too much EC > And I was thinkin' 'bout new ships > And then there she was, > With glowy bits she flies, > Yeah there she was, > The Disco Enterprise...
Christ, Jon, if I'd been drinking right then, I'd need a mop right about now.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
except SIF wasn't present in TOS, so there will be no taking into account of any such technology in regards to the original enterprise
I just say they had material and techniques that can make super, mega strong structures, despite looking frail.
I'm amazed at sci-fi fans who can't seem to help thinking their own limited ideas of current technology must apply to sci-fi design. That mindset isn't new, but it seems be much more common these days.
Let's apply some of the same anti-Connie views to something more real:
Look at that piece of junk. Thin rotors that would be easily shot off, the crew section forward placed behind weak transparent material, and all the important weapons are exposed on pylons where they can be hit by enemy fire before they're even launched!
How stupid.
Oh wait, that is actually the preeminent attack helicopter in the world, and each of those horrible weakness are required elements needed for the design to actually perform in it's role or even fly. And those rotors in real life can take quite impressive amounts of damage and still allow the bird to fly (I leave the google exercise of finding pictures of that type of damage to reader).
So, not so stupid after all.
The Connie should be looked at in the same way. The struts aren't frail and useless- they're required. Why? Who knows- this is fiction, make up a reason that pleases you. Personally these are my mind canon reasons:
The general layout of the ship is required as a result of the warp field produced by the specific model of Warp Drive used by the Connie. The entire design is optimized for that use. Same as a modern Aircraft carrier general design is optimized for its use.
Those struts (and perhaps the neck) are made of a material far denser and more robust than any other section on the ship to handle stress. That density is why they seem rather thin, you couldn't make them wider or thicker without vastly increasing mass and thus lowering performance. They are the sweet spot in design.
The ship Deflectors aren't called force fields for a reason. They *Defect*, i.e. incoming fire is deflected away from ideally the whole ship in whole or in part, or failing that away from the most critical portions.
There done. We have a nifty looking ship that can withstand repeated hits by a Doomsday machine that craves up planets for lunch.
Really, people should use their imagination. It isn't hard.
I have a simple approach to fictional technology, I accept what's shown me as reasonable *even if I don't know why it's reasonable*. This lasts until a lack of consistency makes it impossible to believe an event happening when past history indicates it shouldn't.
I sometimes have fun with making up how it could be reasonable, but that only happens when what's presented to me is really good, and I want to do something with it. In the case of TOS, designing a table top game for starship combat. So yeah, lot of nerd energy spent there.
I have a simple approach to fictional technology, I accept what's shown me as reasonable *even if I don't know why it's reasonable*. This lasts until a lack of consistency makes it impossible to believe an event happening when past history indicates it shouldn't.
I sometimes have fun with making up how it could be reasonable, but that only happens when what's presented to me is really good, and I want to do something with it. In the case of TOS, designing a table top game for starship combat. So yeah, lot of nerd energy spent there.
But whatever, Connie forever!
~Gives you a napkin~
Yep, Cookie Monster, I'm with ya, there.
~fist bump~
I also wanna one day finish my TOS NEO ship, where the engine pods, like the Iconians, are floating, not physically attached.
> @jonsills said:
> Hangin' round
> The shipyard at ESD,
> And I had too much EC
> And I was thinkin' 'bout new ships
> And then there she was,
> With glowy bits she flies,
> Yeah there she was,
> The Disco Enterprise...
Christ, Jon, if I'd been drinking right then, I'd need a mop right about now.
I smell ships and warp drives there,
Who's that in the captain's chair?
Who's that throwing party ball flares in my direction?
Mama, this surely is a dream...
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Good film, loved the ending.
Also, the Discovery is not what I'd call mega high tech, though, nor was the Yavarnov.
Back on topic: Disco-prize looks groovy? XD
And knowing is half the battle!
21 'til I die!
I'm guessing the latter, so they can get people who already have a Connie to keep buying.
Look, Drexler, I've been reading this stuff all my life, and I ain't young. Mere size doesn't impress me - even the Ent-J is tiny compared with, say, the Rama. And as Pournelle pointed out in those CoDominium stories set after the fall of the First Empire of Man, the reason you build big ships and employ lots of people aboard them is because you need those people to run the systems, because you don't have the computer technology to automate them. And you have even more people aboard so that when someone gets killed during a battle, you have another person to replace them, because you can't call time out and go get more crew right then. The Ent-J only makes even a vague kind of sense if the future Federation is so afraid of AI that they don't automate anything if it can be avoided, or if it's one of a small handful of craft deployed as the center of a massive battle group composed of smaller craft like (future versions of) Galaxy- and Sao Paulo-class ships. If it's a sort of forward battle station, a starbase with warp drive, then yeah, I'll grant you that maybe there would be a place for say half a dozen of them during a really intense war. Then you'd retire them to stationary positions between wars, because they're hellishly expensive to operate, to the point that even a post-scarcity economy would take notice.
Basically, Star Wars to the contrary, bigger isn't better. As some folk say even today, it's not how big your ship is, it's what you can do with it that counts. (And remember, the Voyager was nearly destroyed by a time-traveling starship about the size of a Delta Flyer. Now that's impressive future technology!)
R&D gamble box ship to milk it as much as possible with the next disco box being a selection of "less desirable" ships, probably escorts unless the new ep wants to wean the game away from escorts online.
It was the best ACTUAL screenshot I could find from 2010. But I do remember it wasn't reflecting because there were shots where you could CLEARLY see it was ruddy all over and not just on whatever side was facing anything.
I'm more interested in C-store Discovery/Science Spearhead class ships - even if they're weaker than the Lock box ones (I know, it's unlikely to happen, but one can hope).
Maybe they could make some Saurian or Kelpian ships too.
The shuttlbay of the TOS Constitution class actually DOES fit, and if I recall correctly the movie refit one is not too far off. The only one that blatantly does not fit at all (at the outer detail 366 meter scale) is the Kelvin one (which is not surprising, the beer factory they use for engineering in the 2009 film probably does not fit either). Remember, the TOS Enterprise is the length of a 1960s era aircraft carrier so it does have some room. The only possible problem is hanger space, Galileo 7 implies that they have at least seven of the S3 (I forget what TNG called the TOS shuttles at the moment, but the old name works) shuttles but they would be hard pressed to have more than four unless some are packed up in other parts of the ship. Having only two or four actually makes sense since the shuttlebay is the Federation equivalent of the two seaplanes the larger of the WWII cruisers often carried or the two helicopters of the Arliegh Burke heavy missile destroyer of today.
One other thing that is often pointed out is that if the JJPrise is the huge official size then the bridge window would be two decks high, and closeup shots of it from the outside show that that is simply not so.
The ENT episodes dealing with the augment plague imply that not all of the population was effected, so in theory there would be both speedbumps and human-looking Klingons during the TOS era. The lizard and "butter-face" Klingons shown in DSC (both on the finished show and in the early photo leaks) and Kelvin universe are something entirely out of left field. And it is not just a matter of looks, if DSC is merged into the mainline TOS/TNG line then the Klingons have THREE entirely different cultures running at the same time, at least two of which are implied to be the only one in existance.
A good theory about why only augment-virus Klingons are seen in TOS revolves around the feudal-like house fleet structure in the KDF. We only see a few ship crews in TOS, and the crews tend not to mix the Kang and Kor types much less ridged and no-ridged, which implies that they were probably all from one or two house fleets attached to the KDF, and it is not unreasonable to assume that some houses were more susceptible to the virus than others. Another factor could be that most of the encounters were with Klingons in the neutral zone where skill in subterfuge and subtlety, (and looking more like the locals) is an advantage, and those traits are exactly a hallmark feature of the ridgehead Klingons.
In TOS the Klingons had an almost Orwellian surveillance culture, and a major plot point in "Errand of Mercy" hinged on that fact. In ENT and TNG they were shown with a rather naïve warrior culture. Neither one of them seemed particularly concerned with the dead except for TNG's "space Viking" mythology, and in TNG it was explicitly stated that once the warrior's spirit leaves the body left behind is nothing (the impression from the scene is that they might even just throw them in a dumpster). Then comes DSC with their almost fanatical tomb culture that completely flies in the face of the others.
It is possible to reconcile the TOS and the TNG/ENT cultures because they mention the augment virus produced neurological differences and it is possible that the ridgehead majority simply did not trust the non-ridgeheads, resulting in the surveillance culture the human-looking ones live in in TOS, but it is not so easy to resolve the almost diametrically apposed death rites problem since DSC implies that it is the mainline Klingon culture instead of all that was shown before.
It was stated officially that the reason the DSC Klingons do not have any hair is that their ridge folds contain infrared sensor pits similar to some Terran snakes and lizards. Early leaked shots showed Klingons as far more lizard looking than the ones after the big reset that delayed the show for so long. Unfortunately they are still covered in an almost Erwin Allen-esque rubber monster amount of latex which distorts their speech and obscures any facial expressions which in turn makes for very boring aliens.
Getting back to the DSC Enterprise, it would probably work ok as just an outside skin with a default of one of the already existing round bridges since they generally have large viewscreens anyway which could substitute for the idiotic JJwindow in a pinch. I doubt CBS will ever show their version of the Enterprise's bridge since it would be almost a surefire way of killing the show for either the core fans who they are very busy trying to woo back, or the newer fans with their TOS-contempt viewpoint and they need to keep as many viewers as possible.
But honestly.... cryptic will just shove it in a lockbox... we all know it. Lockboxes are fine for some ships, i just dont think the Enterprise ships should be in them. Main show runner ships should be cstore.
Well... it could be explained easily. Look at human culture. We have many different death rites stuff on Earth. Why would it be so difficult to believe that Klingons would be any different?
Borrowing on the "space Viking" thing, the respect that Klingons have for their dead is a lot like the respect that norsemen give to their dead in a way, like what was seen in The 13th Warrior.
And in a way...
Seems to fit them, especially the Kahless following Klingons.
The actual large filming model of the Enterprise had grunge streaks in the original paint job representing its plowing through interstellar dust and gas, but when it was lit bright enough to film it without depth of focus problems the streaks did not show. The white finish was not supposed to be paint btw, in-setting it was supposed to be a superceramic coating to reflect heat and help keep the metal armor from getting abraded over time, if the ships did not have it they would have had the same grungy, rusty look as the Klingon ships that also use tritanium hulls but do not usually bother painting them. The pearlescent coating of the TMP Enterprise was supposed to be highest development of that technique but unfortunately the real-world model was difficult to light in the way the director wanted so they painted it over in boring flat white.
There are no structural issues with the TOS Enterprise, especially if you take the structural integrity fields and engine fields TNG made so much out of into account. In fact, considering the nine inches of very heavy tritanium armor that Roddenberry often mentioned the Enterprise has the bigger struts could add enough weight to make its own structural problems. Sure, the DSC ship looks sleeker but that was not an issue back when TOS was filmed since Star Wars was not there yet to make people think of aircraft and streamlining when looking at space-only ships.
On the other hand, the DSC ship does look nice except for the idiotic useless window in front in place of the actually useful viewscreen.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
True enough from a logical standpoint, but taking comparisons like the "space Viking" too far can be misleading as well. There is a scene in "Heart of Glory" which makes it clear that the Klingons have respect for the spirit and memory of the warrior, but none whatsoever for their body after the warrior leaves it for Sto-vo-kor:
I know Trek is frequently guilty of Planet of Hats syndrome, but let's not force them into it, yeah? If they want to finally decide that different Klingon cultural groups might have different funerary practices (and other practices - perhaps there's a group that thinks eating live gagh is disgusting), that's a good thing.
I just say they had material and techniques that can make super, mega strong structures, despite looking frail.
This thread is about the disco Enterprise.
It is NOT about Klingons or whatever else you do or dont like in the show.
Anybody posting about anything OTHER than the enterprise is OFF TOPIC and basically TROLLING.
So stop your OFF TOPIC TROLLING.
Oh, and have a quote from the FORUM RULES:
Enjoy!
I'm amazed at sci-fi fans who can't seem to help thinking their own limited ideas of current technology must apply to sci-fi design. That mindset isn't new, but it seems be much more common these days.
Let's apply some of the same anti-Connie views to something more real:
Look at that piece of junk. Thin rotors that would be easily shot off, the crew section forward placed behind weak transparent material, and all the important weapons are exposed on pylons where they can be hit by enemy fire before they're even launched!
How stupid.
Oh wait, that is actually the preeminent attack helicopter in the world, and each of those horrible weakness are required elements needed for the design to actually perform in it's role or even fly. And those rotors in real life can take quite impressive amounts of damage and still allow the bird to fly (I leave the google exercise of finding pictures of that type of damage to reader).
So, not so stupid after all.
The Connie should be looked at in the same way. The struts aren't frail and useless- they're required. Why? Who knows- this is fiction, make up a reason that pleases you. Personally these are my mind canon reasons:
There done. We have a nifty looking ship that can withstand repeated hits by a Doomsday machine that craves up planets for lunch.
Really, people should use their imagination. It isn't hard.
The AUTHOR creates the "fiction". It is called "world building". It's a writing technique.
Any work of fiction goes like this: "This universe is just like OUR universe, except for _____". It is the author's JOB to fill in that blank. All WE can do, is assume that anything not directly explained works just like OUR universe. This is why we look at a fictional universe through a "real world" lens when we examine it's contents.
Having said all that, how important is it for the audience to know "why" the ship has the shape it has? All of these things are the result of telling a story. If giving out the exact technical specs of a ship is not important to a story, it will never be mentioned. Yes, there is world building within the confines of telling a story, but it is not the sole purpose of the story. We need to keep this in mind when we look at things inside the Star Trek universe.
> Hangin' round
> The shipyard at ESD,
> And I had too much EC
> And I was thinkin' 'bout new ships
> And then there she was,
> With glowy bits she flies,
> Yeah there she was,
> The Disco Enterprise...
Christ, Jon, if I'd been drinking right then, I'd need a mop right about now.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I have a simple approach to fictional technology, I accept what's shown me as reasonable *even if I don't know why it's reasonable*. This lasts until a lack of consistency makes it impossible to believe an event happening when past history indicates it shouldn't.
I sometimes have fun with making up how it could be reasonable, but that only happens when what's presented to me is really good, and I want to do something with it. In the case of TOS, designing a table top game for starship combat. So yeah, lot of nerd energy spent there.
But whatever, Connie forever!
Yep, Cookie Monster, I'm with ya, there.
~fist bump~
I also wanna one day finish my TOS NEO ship, where the engine pods, like the Iconians, are floating, not physically attached.
I smell ships and warp drives there,
Who's that in the captain's chair?
Who's that throwing party ball flares in my direction?
Mama, this surely is a dream...
Before anyone rants... its been a while since the KDF got some stand alone ships that didn't have Fed/Romulan counterparts.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"