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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,794 Arc User
    edited July 2018
    rattler2 wrote: »
    When has scale been an issue in STO?
    No joke. What this guy said.

    Ship sizes in STO are done in a way to give us a certain "feel" for a ship. It doesn't really matter that there's a size difference in shows due to a throwaway retcon.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    All they need to do is increase the scale of the TOS and TMP versions to match.

    As the Conni was the single and only example of a TOS Starship (all the other ones were cargo ships of various sorts) it never appeared alongside any other ship well enough to get a scale. There's also the shuttlebay which is sodding huge! Considering people seem to think the KT Conni is Galaxy sized for the single reason of the shuttlebay (but not Voyager that also has a shuttlebay too big for it) then just scale up the TOS Conni.
    Are you confusing the pattern on their clothes with actual scales? Because the Klingons had the same normal skin they always had, and no scales.

    You mean their ears?

    You mean the movement that was due to their specific outfit choice, and not a change to their actual biology?

    Also, Klingons were never funny. The best they ever achieved was trying, and failing, to dramatically quote Shakespeare. Worf was only funny to the audience in the fact he got abused so often, not because he was actually humerus in universe, same with the other Klingons, who generally lacked humor as a species.

    I know you haven't actually watched trek at all Pat, but at least try.

    You're arguing with patrickngo. Basically don't bother. It's the same story each time. He'll make up something about Klingons in DSC (the scales or holes in heads) then when footage of them fails to reveal these features he'll stop mentioning them and switch to really pathetic things like their supposed lack of humour or honour then when he thinks nobody's looking he pulls out the scales and holes bollocks again.

    I don't know about the scales but he does seem to think the pitted ridges running down the necks of some of the DSC Klingons are holes (as in they go through like ear holes) not dimples (indentations). He also seems blissfully aware (well, he's not because I've told him this, he's remaining pointlessly ignorant) that the same feature appears on the Klingons in ID and you can see it BtS on the TMP ones.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    You're arguing with patrickngo. Basically don't bother. It's the same story each time. He'll make up something about Klingons in DSC (the scales or holes in heads) then when footage of them fails to reveal these features he'll stop mentioning them and switch to really pathetic things like their supposed lack of humour or honour then when he thinks nobody's looking he pulls out the scales and holes bollocks again.

    I don't know about the scales but he does seem to think the pitted ridges running down the necks of some of the DSC Klingons are holes (as in they go through like ear holes) not dimples (indentations). He also seems blissfully aware (well, he's not because I've told him this, he's remaining pointlessly ignorant) that the same feature appears on the Klingons in ID and you can see it BtS on the TMP ones.​​
    You are being disingenuous here. Before the first episode aired, we knew the Klingons had holes in their skulls. The skulls were on display at the 2017 San Diego Comic Con. When asked, the crew said "those are pheromone emitters and sensors. They are the reason that Klingons are Alpha Predators". I even made a joke that if the Klingons wore a hat or a wig, they would stop being "Alpha Predators". Additionally, the cosmetic team and the showrunners said that they see the Klingons as "avian-reptile hybrids" and they have "rough, scaly skin". They do not directly state that Klingons have scales, but given the "reptile hybrid" context, I can see why someone would draw that conclusion. As far as hair goes, I don't think TRIBBLE Klingons ever had hair, since they are "avian-reptile hybrids" and hair on their skull would inhibit the function of their "pheromone sensors".

    As for the TRIBBLE-prise, I have no idea how Cryptic is going to implement it. If they can make money and stick it in a Lockbox, they will. If CBS needs a promo for TRIBBLE Season Two, then it may end up being a free skin for the Temporal Light Cruiser.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    It's a typical response.

    https://youtu.be/nauLgZISozs
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    redvenge wrote: »
    You are being disingenuous here. Before the first episode aired, we knew the Klingons had holes in their skulls. The skulls were on display at the 2017 San Diego Comic Con. When asked, the crew said "those are pheromone emitters and sensors. They are the reason that Klingons are Alpha Predators". I even made a joke that if the Klingons wore a hat or a wig, they would stop being "Alpha Predators". Additionally, the cosmetic team and the showrunners said that they see the Klingons as "avian-reptile hybrids" and they have "rough, scaly skin". They do not directly state that Klingons have scales, but given the "reptile hybrid" context, I can see why someone would draw that conclusion. As far as hair goes, I don't think TRIBBLE Klingons ever had hair, since they are "avian-reptile hybrids" and hair on their skull would inhibit the function of their "pheromone sensors".

    It's not disingenuous. Having holes is non-canon. All that can be seen of their heads is the same pitting they've had before. Having holes is fanfiction. We've not seen the skulls on screen therefore any claim they have holes is also fanfiction.

    DSCs Klingons are existing Klingons so they can have hair it's a simple as that. Unless the actual show retcons them into a third type of Klingon (bog standard and Augment virus affected being the other two types) they remain the same as they always have done and the hair is just a fashion choice.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Yeah, Targ's just pissy (as per his/her screenname) because the Klinks don't look like TNG Klinks and nobody's given an "explanation" for it yet. (Yet oddly doesn't seem to object to all those years when the "explanation" for the difference between TOS and TNG Klinks was either that it wasn't mentioned at all, or Worf's line, "We do not discuss it with -- outsiders.")

    Also seems to feel that each species' ships are supposed to somehow reflect their own species' appearance, which of course means that humans in Targ's world have flattened, disc-shaped heads that connect to their tubular torsos by means of an elongated, angular neck...

    I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try to speak for me. That would minimize the risk of putting words in my snout I never spoke. I do not need nor want an explanation because I know the 'word of god' saying that there is no reason, just a wish to shape the visuals according to their vision. Just like previous incarnations, changing costumes does not require more than what we see, it's just that Worf's line was a very charming in-joke which was butchered later on - that's what I'm pissy about.

    The latter thing you pulled straight out of some place I don't want to be as I never said anything even remotely like that. I simply took a swing at the - frankly dumb - 'reason' the show runners gave us for the new look. If they just had let it be with "we wanted Giger optics" it'd have been fine. Unnecessary, but fine. However, the reptilian-avian Klingons are completely uncalled for.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Yeah, Targ's just pissy (as per his/her screenname) because the Klinks don't look like TNG Klinks and nobody's given an "explanation" for it yet. (Yet oddly doesn't seem to object to all those years when the "explanation" for the difference between TOS and TNG Klinks was either that it wasn't mentioned at all, or Worf's line, "We do not discuss it with -- outsiders.")

    Also seems to feel that each species' ships are supposed to somehow reflect their own species' appearance, which of course means that humans in Targ's world have flattened, disc-shaped heads that connect to their tubular torsos by means of an elongated, angular neck...


    Wasn't there a whole Episode in Enterprise, explaining how Klingons came to look like humans?!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Enterprise tried to explain why they looked different via the Augment virus, but introduced more plot holes by never explaining how the Klingons got their ridges back between TOS and TNG.

    That's not a plot hole. That's not even what plot hole means.

    I'm sure if you tried really hard you could possibly think of a few ways. Especially as you know that not every Klingon was affected by the virus anyway.

    I'll give you a few; surgery, gene therapy, retrovirals, prosthetic foreheads to wear upon their real heads.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    What's all this talk of Klink. He does not appreciate it one bit. ;)

    https://youtu.be/k_PNaLvE3OQ
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    we only saw frontier klingons in TOS - i.e. the same type of klingons like those that come from a colony world

    we never saw any klingons from core systems, so we have no idea if those were affected or not - but discovery seems to think they weren't, because so far, every klingon shown has had ridges​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


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    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Yeah, Targ's just pissy (as per his/her screenname) because the Klinks don't look like TNG Klinks and nobody's given an "explanation" for it yet. (Yet oddly doesn't seem to object to all those years when the "explanation" for the difference between TOS and TNG Klinks was either that it wasn't mentioned at all, or Worf's line, "We do not discuss it with -- outsiders.")

    Also seems to feel that each species' ships are supposed to somehow reflect their own species' appearance, which of course means that humans in Targ's world have flattened, disc-shaped heads that connect to their tubular torsos by means of an elongated, angular neck...

    To this day it makes me laugh that people can compare TOS to TNG...so Klingons got some ridges from being pretty much human looking...there is a HUGE difference between adding some visuals and completely changing a race to something utterly unreconizable.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    A plot hole is, by definition, a hole in the plot. It being explainable does not excuse the fact that it isn't ever actually explained, and thus, remains a hole in the plot.

    It's not a hole if it's not supposed to be there in the first place. ENT was never the story of how the Klingons regained their ridges between TOS and TMP. It's no more a plot hole than the Klingons in TOS not having them in the first place.
    Also, you just reminded me of the other big plot hole Enterprise introduced, which is, the Augment Virus only affected one small colony world's worth of Klingons, so why it is every single Klingon in the TOS era is a flat head, when, in reality, it should be less then even 1/30th the population?

    How many Klingons did you see in TOS? How many times did you visit Kronos? Because the two times we visit Kronos in the TOS era (in ID and DSC) every single Klingon we see has ridges.
    lianthelia wrote: »
    To this day it makes me laugh that people can compare TOS to TNG...so Klingons got some ridges from being pretty much human looking...there is a HUGE difference between adding some visuals and completely changing a race to something utterly unreconizable.

    It's a good job they've never being turned into something unrecognisable then isn't it.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    we only saw frontier klingons in TOS - i.e. the same type of klingons like those that come from a colony world

    we never saw any klingons from core systems, so we have no idea if those were affected or not - but discovery seems to think they weren't, because so far, every klingon shown has had ridges​​
    This is headcanon, reasonable headcanon, but still headcanon none the less.
    For that matter, Patrick's headcanon that the house leaders we see are a sort of degenerate nobility who use genetic engineering as a form of makeup, and who will be overthrown later by the more "common" ridgeheads we know from TNG and later, is also reasonable headcanon. It wouldn't disappoint me in the least if this turned out to be correct. But at this point it's still headcanon, and they can pull out some explanation even stupider than "Augment tech somehow combined with Levodian flu" if they want.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    It's - obviously - avian flu :D
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    artan42 wrote: »
    All they need to do is increase the scale of the TOS and TMP versions to match.

    As the Conni was the single and only example of a TOS Starship (all the other ones were cargo ships of various sorts) it never appeared alongside any other ship well enough to get a scale. There's also the shuttlebay which is sodding huge! Considering people seem to think the KT Conni is Galaxy sized for the single reason of the shuttlebay (but not Voyager that also has a shuttlebay too big for it) then just scale up the TOS Conni.

    Well... the issue also comes up with the fact that apparently the "official" size for the Kelvin Connie was given by the powers that be. And yet the details clearly indicate a ship closer to the size of the TOS Connie. Maybe slightly bigger.

    Hell... the hull details put her at a more realistic 366 meters. The ONLY thing that scales her up is the shuttlebay scene in Earth orbit. Which shrinks when Pike takes a shuttle out over Vulcan.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    we only saw frontier klingons in TOS - i.e. the same type of klingons like those that come from a colony world

    we never saw any klingons from core systems, so we have no idea if those were affected or not - but discovery seems to think they weren't, because so far, every klingon shown has had ridges
    This is headcanon, reasonable headcanon, but still headcanon none the less.

    Both DSC and ID are canon, not head-canon. Both show TOS era Klingons with ridges. Therefore not all Klingons were affected. You can fill in your own ideas as to why.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    All they need to do is increase the scale of the TOS and TMP versions to match.

    As the Conni was the single and only example of a TOS Starship (all the other ones were cargo ships of various sorts) it never appeared alongside any other ship well enough to get a scale. There's also the shuttlebay which is sodding huge! Considering people seem to think the KT Conni is Galaxy sized for the single reason of the shuttlebay (but not Voyager that also has a shuttlebay too big for it) then just scale up the TOS Conni.

    Well... the issue also comes up with the fact that apparently the "official" size for the Kelvin Connie was given by the powers that be. And yet the details clearly indicate a ship closer to the size of the TOS Connie. Maybe slightly bigger.

    Hell... the hull details put her at a more realistic 366 meters. The ONLY thing that scales her up is the shuttlebay scene in Earth orbit. Which shrinks when Pike takes a shuttle out over Vulcan.

    People only make a thing about it for the KT Conni for some reason. Like I say, the TOS Conni, Voyager, and the Defiant all have shuttlebays that can't fit in models at the scales given. Even the official 170m length of the Defiant (as opposed to the more reasonable onscreen size of between 100-150m) is too shallow to fit one.

    But the shuttlebay isn't the only thing any more. The windows in BEY contain more decks than they did in ID (three to the previous two) meaning that the KT Conni and the DSC Conni are of whatever scale any particular effects guy wants them to be.

    It's also worth noting that the KT Conni doesn't have an official size listed in the Official Starship Collection whereas both the Franklin and Kelvin do (The Kelvin is officially 315m long which is a long way off from the Blue-Ray size of 457m).

    I suspect that in future, all seven versions of the Conni might be fudged to be about 450ish metres and call it a day.

    Obviously that's not going to please fans who argue about the exact shade of grey used on the DS9 uniforms vs. the VGR uniforms but it'll probably do for the effects guys.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    Enterprise tried to explain why they looked different via the Augment virus, but introduced more plot holes by never explaining how the Klingons got their ridges back between TOS and TNG.


    Since Enterprise predates TOS, why would it be the former's job to explain how Klingons got their ridges back?! So, per definition, they left no plot holes.

    But why all the fuss?! We all know the TOS Klingons looked the way they did, primarily simply because of budget constraints (and because they kinda needed to look like the part of rogue bad guys: aka, the Russians). I like that Enterprise tried at least to canonize at least some part of the discrepancy, so we had something to go on, in terms of rationalizing the difference.

    On that note, I think ST:TNG Klingons look the most 'normal' to me. The cannibalistic 'masks' Discovery produced, is something I'm trying very hard to wipe from memory, though.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Does Disco Stu serve on the DISCO Enterprise?

    https://youtu.be/L99G4D73yxo
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Since Enterprise predates TOS, why would it be the former's job to explain how Klingons got their ridges back?! So, per definition, they left no plot holes.
    Because, if you are going to retcon something like "why the Klingons look different" from "because they simply decided to change how they look once they got more budget" into something like "they were altered by a virus", and then have the episode end with no one being able to find a way to cure it, and not explain how they obviously did cure it, you have moved straight into plot hole territory.

    ENT retconed a event that happened in its own future, and then failed to explain it. Its a plot hole, and moves dangerously into dues ex machina territory with how it expects us to just believe they did. All it would have taken is a line about Phlox sending data to some medical research institution so they can put it all through a computer to determine how to undo it, while saying that, due to the number of possible changes the virus could have made to the DNA, it will likely take them 100 years or so to hammer out how to undo it all properly without killing the person involved.

    But ENT was too lazy to do even that, so now we are left with a number of Klingons getting augmented to look like humans, and all of them somehow undoing it between TOS and TNG, but nothing explaining how, especially when the Klingons have never been that good at tech, let alone medical tech, and thus, are unlikely to have ever developed a cure themselves.


    Actually, we don't even know whether they undid it. Only a very small segment of the Klingon population was affected to begin with; and we don't even know the effects of the virus were hereditary (and even if they were, breeding amongst all Klingons would likely have simply eradicated the DNA changes, and/or the Klinks affected had simply died out). Or the affected Klingons had been banished from breeding. Or whatever. Point remains, it wasn't up to Enterprise to offer a peek into the future, or even hint to, how the Klink gene pool was apparently eventually purified, later on: all Enterprise did, was offer an explanation as to why we could see human-looking Klingons in 'Trouble with Tribbles.' That's all.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    Both DSC and ID are canon, not head-canon. Both show TOS era Klingons with ridges. Therefore not all Klingons were affected. You can fill in your own ideas as to why.
    ID is in an entirely separate timeline, that was affected all the way back to the Big Bang, by Nero's incursion. We don't even know if the Klingons ever worked with the Augment Virus in that timeline.

    And yes, DSC actually went back and re-retconed ENT's mistake, however, if you had actually bothered to follow the conversation, you would know I was speaking about how ENT's choice back then introduced plot holes, not how the newest show which only aired years later bothered to fix them.

    That's incorrect. The Kelvin Timeline takes affect from the destruction of the Kelvin in 2233. This is pointed out by Spock in 09.

    As such we know that the events of ENT still happened as they predate 2233 an are referenced in BEY.

    But if you'd bothered following the conversation you'd have learnt that the plot not relating to something is not a plot hole.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Hangin' round
    The shipyard at ESD,
    And I had too much EC
    And I was thinkin' 'bout new ships
    And then there she was,
    With glowy bits she flies,
    Yeah there she was,
    The Disco Enterprise...
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Actually, we don't even know whether they undid it. Only a very small segment of the Klingon population was affected to begin with; and we don't even know the effects of the virus were hereditary (and even if they were, breeding amongst all Klingons would likely have simply eradicated the DNA changes, and/or the Klinks affected had simply died out). Or the affected Klingons had been banished from breeding. Or whatever. Point remains, it wasn't up to Enterprise to offer a peek into the future, or even hint to, how the Klink gene pool was apparently eventually purified, later on: all Enterprise did, was offer an explanation as to why we could see human-looking Klingons in 'Trouble with Tribbles.' That's all.

    Actually... we do see three TOS Klingon Captains again in DS9, as Dahar Masters with ridges.

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kor
    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Koloth
    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Kang

    So honestly... the only plot hole that remains... is how it was cured. Enterprise filled in the hole left behind by the visual change between TOS and TMP (As TMP is essentially the first incarnation of the Klingons we are familiar with in TNG on). All we can assume is that a cure was found sometime between the last episode of TOS and TMP. Although its also possible that it wasn't a perfect cure, as Change and Gorkon had less defined ridges than say... Colonel Worf. By TNG... they were cured and refuse to discuss the entire incident with outsiders.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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