have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
It's described in the Memory Alpha wiki as officially non-existent and autonomous and claim to protect the interests of United Earth and the Federation. Starfleet's black ops division, seperate from intelligence. A deeply buried secret.
have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
It's described in the Memory Alpha wiki as officially non-existent and autonomous and claim to protect the interests of United Earth and the Federation. Starfleet's black ops division, seperate from intelligence. A deeply buried secret.
Because that's how it is in DS9. Mainly because that's how Slone needs it to be to combat the Dominion whose founders are shapeshifters who have infiltrated the highest echelons of The Federation and Klingon Empire (and I assume the Romulan Star Empire as well). Marcus has a different vision for S31 and appears to be a big fan of out-Klingoning the Klingons and crushing them as they are already in chaos (very Undiscovered Country). There's very little S31 in ENT but it resembles a mix of the ID and DS9 versions with regards to how it operates.
In short, Slone kept S31 in the shadows (despite his manipulation of several departments of Starfleet) whereas Marcus was slightly more public with his version (I can't see Jupiter Base as very hard to find with sensors, even for civilians).
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
The fact that S31 is in the founding charter makes it officially existent even if Bashir says otherwise so MA is wrong there.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
Perhaps in the Prime Timeline, the facility was blown up by Tal Shiar operatives, making the organization go 'building free' so it can't be attacked thusly again... Such a possibility would allow for Sloane's statements...
have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
It's described in the Memory Alpha wiki as officially non-existent and autonomous and claim to protect the interests of United Earth and the Federation. Starfleet's black ops division, seperate from intelligence. A deeply buried secret.
Because that's how it is in DS9. Mainly because that's how Slone needs it to be to combat the Dominion whose founders are shapeshifters who have infiltrated the highest echelons of The Federation and Klingon Empire (and I assume the Romulan Star Empire as well). Marcus has a different vision for S31 and appears to be a big fan of out-Klingoning the Klingons and crushing them as they are already in chaos (very Undiscovered Country). There's very little S31 in ENT but it resembles a mix of the ID and DS9 versions with regards to how it operates.
In short, Slone kept S31 in the shadows (despite his manipulation of several departments of Starfleet) whereas Marcus was slightly more public with his version (I can't see Jupiter Base as very hard to find with sensors, even for civilians).
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
The fact that S31 is in the founding charter makes it officially existent even if Bashir says otherwise so MA is wrong there.
Exactly... Section 31 is 100% official. It exists 'off the books', to give the Federation Council plausible deniability. This is the one aspect/implication of Section 31's existence which I'm not happy about: Why does the benevolent and peaceful Federation, get to lie about its classified organization?? Pre-Hobus, every Romulan lived in fear of the Tal Shiar. Cardassian citzenry lived in fear of the Obsidian Order... That's not to say that Federation citizens should live in fear of Section 31, but to illustrate that other races knew of their government's: SuperSecretSpyClub... What gives the Federation Council the right to do otherwise, and still try and claim moral superiority?? Arguably, the only ones who should have the right to do this, are the Klingons, as they don't have such an agency. They get their regular forces to do their 'espionage' for them...In fact, I hesitate to even call it 'espionage', because such behaviour; Flying round 'checking stuff out' and finding out what's going on, has always been a Klingon trait, there's nothing covert about that behaviour at all... (other than doing it in a ship which can cloak)
have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
It's described in the Memory Alpha wiki as officially non-existent and autonomous and claim to protect the interests of United Earth and the Federation. Starfleet's black ops division, seperate from intelligence. A deeply buried secret.
Because that's how it is in DS9. Mainly because that's how Slone needs it to be to combat the Dominion whose founders are shapeshifters who have infiltrated the highest echelons of The Federation and Klingon Empire (and I assume the Romulan Star Empire as well). Marcus has a different vision for S31 and appears to be a big fan of out-Klingoning the Klingons and crushing them as they are already in chaos (very Undiscovered Country). There's very little S31 in ENT but it resembles a mix of the ID and DS9 versions with regards to how it operates.
In short, Slone kept S31 in the shadows (despite his manipulation of several departments of Starfleet) whereas Marcus was slightly more public with his version (I can't see Jupiter Base as very hard to find with sensors, even for civilians).
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
The fact that S31 is in the founding charter makes it officially existent even if Bashir says otherwise so MA is wrong there.
Exactly... Section 31 is 100% official. It exists 'off the books', to give the Federation Council plausible deniability. This is the one aspect/implication of Section 31's existence which I'm not happy about: Why does the benevolent and peaceful Federation, get to lie about its classified organization?? Pre-Hobus, every Romulan lived in fear of the Tal Shiar. Cardassian citzenry lived in fear of the Obsidian Order... That's not to say that Federation citizens should live in fear of Section 31, but to illustrate that other races knew of their government's: SuperSecretSpyClub... What gives the Federation Council the right to do otherwise, and still try and claim moral superiority?? Arguably, the only ones who should have the right to do this, are the Klingons, as they don't have such an agency. They get their regular forces to do their 'espionage' for them...In fact, I hesitate to even call it 'espionage', because such behaviour; Flying round 'checking stuff out' and finding out what's going on, has always been a Klingon trait, there's nothing covert about that behaviour at all... (other than doing it in a ship which can cloak)
Despite the post-scarcity surface of the Federation it has always been a bit police-stateish. It has it's model and will attempt to keep that through any means. Considering the incompetence of the majority of the political and Starfleet higher ups, it's also not much of a surprise that the relatively competent S31 would work behind the scenes where they can't be interfered with by the Federation Council or whatever.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
have their headquarters in London, own their own starships, oh yeah, and have a Starbase orbiting Jupiter building dreadnoughts which are commissioned by Starfleet Command as evidenced by Marcus having such a prototype on his desk at SC.
That's the Kelvin timeline, in the Prime Timeline Sloane says (in DS9 episode Extreme Measures) that Section 31 has no headquarters (that's if he's telling the truth)
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
It's described in the Memory Alpha wiki as officially non-existent and autonomous and claim to protect the interests of United Earth and the Federation. Starfleet's black ops division, seperate from intelligence. A deeply buried secret.
Because that's how it is in DS9. Mainly because that's how Slone needs it to be to combat the Dominion whose founders are shapeshifters who have infiltrated the highest echelons of The Federation and Klingon Empire (and I assume the Romulan Star Empire as well). Marcus has a different vision for S31 and appears to be a big fan of out-Klingoning the Klingons and crushing them as they are already in chaos (very Undiscovered Country). There's very little S31 in ENT but it resembles a mix of the ID and DS9 versions with regards to how it operates.
In short, Slone kept S31 in the shadows (despite his manipulation of several departments of Starfleet) whereas Marcus was slightly more public with his version (I can't see Jupiter Base as very hard to find with sensors, even for civilians).
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
The fact that S31 is in the founding charter makes it officially existent even if Bashir says otherwise so MA is wrong there.
Exactly... Section 31 is 100% official. It exists 'off the books', to give the Federation Council plausible deniability. This is the one aspect/implication of Section 31's existence which I'm not happy about: Why does the benevolent and peaceful Federation, get to lie about its classified organization?? Pre-Hobus, every Romulan lived in fear of the Tal Shiar. Cardassian citzenry lived in fear of the Obsidian Order... That's not to say that Federation citizens should live in fear of Section 31, but to illustrate that other races knew of their government's: SuperSecretSpyClub... What gives the Federation Council the right to do otherwise, and still try and claim moral superiority?? Arguably, the only ones who should have the right to do this, are the Klingons, as they don't have such an agency. They get their regular forces to do their 'espionage' for them...In fact, I hesitate to even call it 'espionage', because such behaviour; Flying round 'checking stuff out' and finding out what's going on, has always been a Klingon trait, there's nothing covert about that behaviour at all... (other than doing it in a ship which can cloak)
Despite the post-scarcity surface of the Federation it has always been a bit police-stateish. It has it's model and will attempt to keep that through any means. Considering the incompetence of the majority of the political and Starfleet higher ups, it's also not much of a surprise that the relatively competent S31 would work behind the scenes where they can't be interfered with by the Federation Council or whatever.
That also makes sense... I suspect they take the view that politicians come and go, but the Federation Remains, and it's the Federation which they exist to protect...
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
Nope. MA has it's own little head canon and it's own canon that differs from CBS', you've obviously read the example I posted above as well as ones in other threads, and despite your own ignorance of CBS's canon policy, you can't ignore MA's even if editors do. And no. I'm not editing it any more. Turns out after the same little band of editors with their special little books and comics keep reverting changes you make to articles, you grow bored of trying to correct them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
This is why I think canon is a dirty word, it causes too much animosity. I just treat EVERYTHING as canon, even if it contradicts (time travel paradoxes are the best explanation for that), therefore, no arguments.
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
Nope. MA has it's own little head canon and it's own canon that differs from CBS', you've obviously read the example I posted above as well as ones in other threads, and despite your own ignorance of CBS's canon policy, you can't ignore MA's even if editors do. And no. I'm not editing it any more. Turns out after the same little band of editors with their special little books and comics keep reverting changes you make to articles, you grow bored of trying to correct them.
This... It's not worth the time to correct them, because they'll just change it back to say what they want it to say, regardless of if what they're saying is accurate or not...
This is amusing. The same source you quote for the very existence of Section 31 and its supposed legitimacy, Sloane in DS9, is the same one you refuse to believe when told they're not officially acknowledged to exist even by the Council and they have no HQ.
This is amusing. The same source you quote for the very existence of Section 31 and its supposed legitimacy, Sloane in DS9, is the same one you refuse to believe when told they're not officially acknowledged to exist even by the Council and they have no HQ.
Sloane, like Garak, fills the role of unreliable narrator, in so much as anything said by them, cannot be taken entirely at face-value, and there is a strong likelihood that anything said by them, is an instance of him/them are lying to manipulate the person to whom they are speaking... Again, just because Section 31 is not officially acknowledged by the Council, isn't really the point... The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why? The Romulan senate and Cardassia's central command would have known of their black-opps divisions) As I've mentioned before on the subject, the resources Section 31 has access to, implies official support at a higher level (possibly even higher than the Council)
This is amusing. The same source you quote for the very existence of Section 31 and its supposed legitimacy, Sloane in DS9, is the same one you refuse to believe when told they're not officially acknowledged to exist even by the Council and they have no HQ.
Sloane, like Garak, fills the role of unreliable narrator, in so much as anything said by them, cannot be taken entirely at face-value, and there is a strong likelihood that anything said by them, is an instance of him/them are lying to manipulate the person to whom they are speaking... Again, just because Section 31 is not officially acknowledged by the Council, isn't really the point... The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why? The Romulan senate and Cardassia's central command would have known of their black-opps divisions) As I've mentioned before on the subject, the resources Section 31 has access to, implies official support at a higher level (possibly even higher than the Council)
No Slone was being deadly serious at the time and S31 built the Jupiter Base and dreadnought in secret in Earth's backyard and not a soul at Starfleet Command knew about it.
It's similar to how the KKK are capable of building a base off the coast of New York and producing a nuclear powered battleship and the US Government has no idea they can do it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why?
Surely it's to maintain their whiter than white image to the other powers and still use section 31 to do their dirty work.
It's the same with the Celestial Intervention Agency, because they often violated the Time lords non-intervention policy they had to remain secretive so that the Time Lord High Council has plausible deniability, to keep their hands clean.
The CIA isn't as secretive as Section 31, many highly placed Time Lords and all the other Temporal Powers know it exists and have had dealings with it, including President Romana (who as a last act of her presidency named herself Co-Ordinator of the CIA), it's much the same as the Federation Council/Starfleet's relationship with section 31. The High Council uses them when they need them.
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
Nope. MA has it's own little head canon and it's own canon that differs from CBS', you've obviously read the example I posted above as well as ones in other threads, and despite your own ignorance of CBS's canon policy, you can't ignore MA's even if editors do. And no. I'm not editing it any more. Turns out after the same little band of editors with their special little books and comics keep reverting changes you make to articles, you grow bored of trying to correct them.
My ignorance? I'm not the one who keeps clinging to a policy that CBS themselves DELETED.
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
This is why I think canon is a dirty word, it causes too much animosity. I just treat EVERYTHING as canon, even if it contradicts (time travel paradoxes are the best explanation for that), therefore, no arguments.
I suspect it's also why CBS deleted the official canon policy. They probably decided it wasn't worth worrying about since it's existence or lack thereof had no effect on their choices when making movies or TV shows.
This is amusing. The same source you quote for the very existence of Section 31 and its supposed legitimacy, Sloane in DS9, is the same one you refuse to believe when told they're not officially acknowledged to exist even by the Council and they have no HQ.
Sloane, like Garak, fills the role of unreliable narrator, in so much as anything said by them, cannot be taken entirely at face-value, and there is a strong likelihood that anything said by them, is an instance of him/them are lying to manipulate the person to whom they are speaking... Again, just because Section 31 is not officially acknowledged by the Council, isn't really the point... The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why? The Romulan senate and Cardassia's central command would have known of their black-opps divisions) As I've mentioned before on the subject, the resources Section 31 has access to, implies official support at a higher level (possibly even higher than the Council)
No Slone was being deadly serious at the time
Again, it's possible (if not likely) that he was lying or somehow manipulating the truth for his (and the Narrative's) purpose... Wrapping a lie in a partial truth...
S31 built the Jupiter Base and dreadnought in secret in Earth's backyard
KT Section 31... As with the rest of the KT, it's militarism taken to an extreme, but also only relevant to the KT. It doesn't automatically mean that PrimeVerse Section 31 has its own secret shipyard. Data recognized the constructioon of the holoship on Ba'ku as 'clearly Federation in design'... Realistically, Section 31 would have no need to adhere to Starfleet construction styles...
and not a soul at Starfleet Command knew about it.
Kirk and co knew nothing about it... That doesn't mean no one else at Starfleet Command knew about it (especially given how the Kelvin Archive was an openly Starfleet installation, it's inconceivably implausible that the personnel stationed there would not notice the steady stream of officers who they never actually saw during the working day, but who they see entering and leaving every day ) It's quite plausible that the Jupiter base was simply classified above the clearance of most Starfleet officers like Kirk and Scotty, and the KT's equivalent of Area 51...
As I said, if the Council has plausible deniability, they have plausible deniability. That doesn't preclude Higher Ups from knowing about it, and being able to allocate resources on Section 31's behalf...
i would prefer they just use a system like star wars or a tiered system - official complementary material (like technical manuals and the like used to make films and episodes) at the top, then movies and television (excluding deleted scenes and behind-the-scenes commentary), then tie-in comics and/or books for movies or specific episodes, then other licensed books, then comics, with games being last
any material that contradicts something from further up the chain is ignored (which is why i have stuff like technical manuals at the top, because they are CONSISTENT in their data - such a thing would help avoid nonsense like the size of the defiant or the KT constitution and vengeance)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why?
Surely it's to maintain their whiter than white image to the other powers and still use section 31 to do their dirty work.
It's the same with the Celestial Intervention Agency, because they often violated the Time lords non-intervention policy they had to remain secretive so that the Time Lord High Council has plausible deniability, to keep their hands clean.
The CIA isn't as secretive as Section 31, many highly placed Time Lords and all the other Temporal Powers know it exists and have had dealings with it, including President Romana (who as a last act of her presidency named herself Co-Ordinator of the CIA), it's much the same as the Federation Council/Starfleet's relationship with section 31. The High Council uses them when they need them.
Well absolutely, and that's my issue... It shows that the Federation is unwilling/unable to admit to having such an organization, which the Cardassians and Romulans, make absolutely no secret of... The Tal Shiar are about as 'secret' as the KGB, or the Freemasons... My issue isn't Section 31's existence, but the implications of the denial of its existence, in terms of Federation credibility...
This is amusing. The same source you quote for the very existence of Section 31 and its supposed legitimacy, Sloane in DS9, is the same one you refuse to believe when told they're not officially acknowledged to exist even by the Council and they have no HQ.
Sloane, like Garak, fills the role of unreliable narrator, in so much as anything said by them, cannot be taken entirely at face-value, and there is a strong likelihood that anything said by them, is an instance of him/them are lying to manipulate the person to whom they are speaking... Again, just because Section 31 is not officially acknowledged by the Council, isn't really the point... The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why? The Romulan senate and Cardassia's central command would have known of their black-opps divisions) As I've mentioned before on the subject, the resources Section 31 has access to, implies official support at a higher level (possibly even higher than the Council)
No Slone was being deadly serious at the time
Again, it's possible (if not likely) that he was lying or somehow manipulating the truth for his (and the Narrative's) purpose... Wrapping a lie in a partial truth...
S31 built the Jupiter Base and dreadnought in secret in Earth's backyard
KT Section 31... As with the rest of the KT, it's militarism taken to an extreme, but also only relevant to the KT. It doesn't automatically mean that PrimeVerse Section 31 has its own secret shipyard. Data recognized the constructioon of the holoship on Ba'ku as 'clearly Federation in design'... Realistically, Section 31 would have no need to adhere to Starfleet construction styles...
and not a soul at Starfleet Command knew about it.
Kirk and co knew nothing about it... That doesn't mean no one else at Starfleet Command knew about it (especially given how the Kelvin Archive was an openly Starfleet installation, it's inconceivably implausible that the personnel stationed there would not notice the steady stream of officers who they never actually saw during the working day, but who they see entering and leaving every day ) It's quite plausible that the Jupiter base was simply classified above the clearance of most Starfleet officers like Kirk and Scotty, and the KT's equivalent of Area 51...
As I said, if the Council has plausible deniability, they have plausible deniability. That doesn't preclude Higher Ups from knowing about it, and being able to allocate resources on Section 31's behalf...
My last post was sarcasm. Come on man. Just two posts up we were agreeing with each other .
S31 is an official organisation and there's no way out of that for anyone.
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
Nope. MA has it's own little head canon and it's own canon that differs from CBS', you've obviously read the example I posted above as well as ones in other threads, and despite your own ignorance of CBS's canon policy, you can't ignore MA's even if editors do. And no. I'm not editing it any more. Turns out after the same little band of editors with their special little books and comics keep reverting changes you make to articles, you grow bored of trying to correct them.
My ignorance? I'm not the one who keeps clinging to a policy that CBS themselves DELETED.
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
That or it disagrees with your head-canon.... I'm going with #2.
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
This is why I think canon is a dirty word, it causes too much animosity. I just treat EVERYTHING as canon, even if it contradicts (time travel paradoxes are the best explanation for that), therefore, no arguments.
I suspect it's also why CBS deleted the official canon policy. They probably decided it wasn't worth worrying about since it's existence or lack thereof had no effect on their choices when making movies or TV shows.
Again, removing a book analogy. And don't be silly. CBS went out of their way to say the silly game with the Gorn was not canon and to prevent JJ from attempting to make his the only canon material around.
Plus, from what we've gleamed about DSC it will be related to the Kelvin, ENT, and Cage eras and so on, it was specifically mentioned that it will play slightly loose with existing canon. Thin is, the only canon mentioned was TV shows as it will pi5s all over those silly books that came out covering that era not too long ago and that fact wasn't even worth mentioning.
I know you edit on MA but there's no need to defend it all them time , not even most users of Wikipedia are that defensive to their wiki.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
This is amusing. The same source you quote for the very existence of Section 31 and its supposed legitimacy, Sloane in DS9, is the same one you refuse to believe when told they're not officially acknowledged to exist even by the Council and they have no HQ.
Sloane, like Garak, fills the role of unreliable narrator, in so much as anything said by them, cannot be taken entirely at face-value, and there is a strong likelihood that anything said by them, is an instance of him/them are lying to manipulate the person to whom they are speaking... Again, just because Section 31 is not officially acknowledged by the Council, isn't really the point... The Council can't be seen to have knowledge of such an organization (again, why? The Romulan senate and Cardassia's central command would have known of their black-opps divisions) As I've mentioned before on the subject, the resources Section 31 has access to, implies official support at a higher level (possibly even higher than the Council)
No Slone was being deadly serious at the time
Again, it's possible (if not likely) that he was lying or somehow manipulating the truth for his (and the Narrative's) purpose... Wrapping a lie in a partial truth...
S31 built the Jupiter Base and dreadnought in secret in Earth's backyard
KT Section 31... As with the rest of the KT, it's militarism taken to an extreme, but also only relevant to the KT. It doesn't automatically mean that PrimeVerse Section 31 has its own secret shipyard. Data recognized the constructioon of the holoship on Ba'ku as 'clearly Federation in design'... Realistically, Section 31 would have no need to adhere to Starfleet construction styles...
and not a soul at Starfleet Command knew about it.
Kirk and co knew nothing about it... That doesn't mean no one else at Starfleet Command knew about it (especially given how the Kelvin Archive was an openly Starfleet installation, it's inconceivably implausible that the personnel stationed there would not notice the steady stream of officers who they never actually saw during the working day, but who they see entering and leaving every day ) It's quite plausible that the Jupiter base was simply classified above the clearance of most Starfleet officers like Kirk and Scotty, and the KT's equivalent of Area 51...
As I said, if the Council has plausible deniability, they have plausible deniability. That doesn't preclude Higher Ups from knowing about it, and being able to allocate resources on Section 31's behalf...
My last post was sarcasm. Come on man. Just two posts up we were agreeing with each other .
S31 is an official organisation and there's no way out of that for anyone.
My bad, I didn't realize that... And yeah, absolutely, Section 31 is/has to be 100% official... Anything else, is just implausible
As a counter point.... removing a book from the official policy shelf and tossing it in the archive says a lot about how current the material in the book is.
CBS went out of their way to say the silly game with the Gorn was not canon and to prevent JJ from attempting to make his the only canon material around.
To continue the book analogy, CBS told JJ he wasn't allowed to replace the missing book with one of his own creation. It does not obligate them to actually USE the book they removed.
Also, I regularly fix anything and everything I see on MA that looks wrong. I can't think of any time I've had a serious conflict with anyone over it. Also what name did you use when editing on MA? "artan42" gives no results...
Next possibility: the unreliable narrator, Sloane, was a member of a private militia that liked to imagine it was based in some obscure part of the Federation Charter, similar to the way militias in the US will imagine that they're legitimized by the Second Amendment to the Constitution (with its reference to "a well-regulated militia") and an... interesting reading of maritime law. Hey, if he could be lying about anything, he could well be lying about everything...
And yes, the KT Starfleet was a much more militarized operation. That universe might well have authorized a "black ops" section, one the President and his advisers might know about, but which might well have been kept secret from the Council (as they would have no need-to-know).
As for KT S31 building a secret ship, is that really less probable than Reman slaves building a ship that outclassed the entire RSE fleet, right under the noses of their Romulan masters? Yet not only have we as an audience swallowed that one whole, we've got multiple variants on that ship in the game.
i didn't; i still refuse to believe slaves can construct something like that, have always refused to belive it and will always refuse to believe it until CBS comes right out and says the remans built it from start to finish, including the thalaron weapon
until then, the tal shiar built most of it, shinzon just stole and finished it - kind of like how the yevetha from the star wars black fleet crisis trilogy didn't actually BUILD the fleet - they just stole it from the empire while it was in drydock after the battle of endor)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The fact that S31 is in the founding charter makes it officially existent even if Bashir says otherwise so MA is wrong there.
It's been a while since I've seen the episodes so I'm really looking at Memory Alpha here, which is saying that it's Starfleet's charter Section 31 is covered in rather than the Founding Charter of the Federation.
Does make sense though. The Federation exists with its own lovely, completely innocent view of the galaxy without any issues, and delegates its space operations to Starfleet, who happen to have this covert ops organisation sneaking around. So if anything ever came back on the Federation as a whole, the blame officially lies with Starfleet, not the Council or any of the politicians because the Federation of course would abhor any such action.
i would prefer they just use a system like star wars or a tiered system - official complementary material (like technical manuals and the like used to make films and episodes) at the top, then movies and television (excluding deleted scenes and behind-the-scenes commentary), then tie-in comics and/or books for movies or specific episodes, then other licensed books, then comics, with games being last
any material that contradicts something from further up the chain is ignored (which is why i have stuff like technical manuals at the top, because they are CONSISTENT in their data - such a thing would help avoid nonsense like the size of the defiant or the KT constitution and vengeance)
Doctor Who is in the same position, sort of. TV show trumps all (a few extras here and there thrown in where possible), then you've got the expanded universe, then stuff that's definitely non-canon. They leave the middle one so vague that it allows writers to do whatever they want so long as they don't contradict the show itself (in which case it goes to the bottom of the pile). It's then left down to the fans to view the content and pick and choose as they please, but nobody is going around telling them "this is definitely wrong" (barring the obvious extreme cases).
Admittedly that is in part out of necessity, the BBC cannot canonise paid material under threat of losing its broadcasting license so everything covered by the canon policy has been "broadcast" in one form or another (even giving away video games totally for free to get round it). The only way to avoid calling it non-canon is not to label it at all.
Just because you have agents and contacts in official channels doesn't make you legitimate.
Cerberus in Mass Effect had many of these, even some legal civilian businesses/contractors and it still didn't stop the Alliance hunting them down at every opportunity.
All it gave them was advance warning if an Alliance detachment was coming to take them out.
And Cerberus claimed the same principles as Section 31, by the way, that they were "protecting humanity, even from itself if need be".
I would speculate that anyone in Starfleet who is connected to S31 is diverting assets to them without authorization or approval from the chain of command and using the "classified project" clause to prevent investigation of where exactly those assets are going and who is using them.
In other words, S31 sympathisers are traitors to Starfleet, giving resources to a rogue organization who should not have access to them in the first place.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Next possibility: the unreliable narrator, Sloane, was a member of a private militia that liked to imagine it was based in some obscure part of the Federation Charter, similar to the way militias in the US will imagine that they're legitimized by the Second Amendment to the Constitution (with its reference to "a well-regulated militia") and an... interesting reading of maritime law. Hey, if he could be lying about anything, he could well be lying about everything...
Possible... Certainly a possibility... The thing is, the 2nd amendment does legitimize militias(under certain circumstances) In that regard, Section 31can be seen as 'having a point'. I think the distinction between what you're describing as 'a militia', is basically a bunch of survivalists doing meth and drinking 'shine... Section 31, on the other hand, were not only pretty competent (such as Sloane's escape from execution on Romulus) but were operating with official 'supplies'. Survivalist militias, by contrast, don't really have access to military equipment. Military-grade, perhaps, but not actual deployable stuff like vehicles etc... IMHO, it is that level of equipment which implies Section 31's legitimacy as an organisation.
And yes, the KT Starfleet was a much more militarized operation. That universe might well have authorized a "black ops" section, one the President and his advisers might know about, but which might well have been kept secret from the Council (as they would have no need-to-know).
I suspect the PrimeVerse does as well, they just don't want to admit it. KT Section 31 existed by 'hiding in plain sight'. The Bashir/Sisko conversations suggest that most people at Starfleet have never even heard of Section 31 nor seen them, so they can't be 'hiding in plain sight' in the same way. STO's depiction of them is even more eccentric, in so much as, The Captain suddenly gets contacted by some angry guy, and starts taking orders from him... No prior introduction to Drake whatsoever... My headcanon is that Drake paid Cara a late-night visit some time after her part in Judah Lees' trial, and said that Mad Kathy wasn't the only person in she had impressed, and that he would be keeping an eye on her career and might contact her from time to time... It's the only explanation which makes the presented scenario, of why she would follow his orders, make sense...
As for KT S31 building a secret ship, is that really less probable than Reman slaves building a ship that outclassed the entire RSE fleet, right under the noses of their Romulan masters? Yet not only have we as an audience swallowed that one whole, we've got multiple variants on that ship in the game.
I can headcanon an explanation for you... Sinzon said something about 'building the Scimitar in secret...' If he was talking about the Vault, that could be where the Scimitar Class was being built for the RSE by Reman labor forces... Maybe even as a proof-of-concept prototype (which would explain the Reman control interfaces as; "Romulan interfaces will be installed in the production models..." That would explain how they were able to literally take it once the senate was overthrown. But that literally is headcanoning it... In terms of what was presented, no, it doesn't hold up when subjected to scrutiny...
That Section 31 are able to do so, as above, I think it has to be explained as an Area 51-type scenario. Someone somewhere has to sign off on the requisitions, that's something beyond Admiral Marcus' clout. He could probably make a project like that happen officially, and with full disclosure, but I doubt that he would have the personal resources to do it in secret, without someone higher up giving him the resources to play with...
Just because you have agents and contacts in official channels doesn't make you legitimate.
Cerberus in Mass Effect had many of these, even some legal civilian businesses/contractors and it still didn't stop the Alliance hunting them down at every opportunity.
All it gave them was advance warning if an Alliance detachment was coming to take them out.
And Cerberus claimed the same principles as Section 31, by the way, that they were "protecting humanity, even from itself if need be".
I would speculate that anyone in Starfleet who is connected to S31 is diverting assets to them without authorization or approval from the chain of command and using the "classified project" clause to prevent investigation of where exactly those assets are going and who is using them.
In other words, S31 sympathisers are traitors to Starfleet, giving resources to a rogue organization who should not have access to them in the first place.
I can see what you're meaning, but that overlooks two factors: One, the length of time Section 31 has been in existence, and two, just how much clout this 'requisitions officer' realistically has... ENT shows that Section 31 has existed since before the Federation, so it's implausible that a group of freelance radicals would always be able to keep someone in the right place to be able to ensure those supply lines don't get cut. Viewing from ENT to Insurrection, suggests that Section 31 has no issue with regards resources, so those resources have to be flowing freely, leading onto my second point... 'Classified projects' only have so much leeway before the commitees which they report to expect to see results. They wouldn't be able to keep dismissing failed projects and expecting more resources. Not over several centuries... Even in a post-scarcity society, an organization will not allow someone who doesn't produce results to keep getting more resources or keep their position, there would still be a level of accountability, which an unauthorized person simoly could not maintain. I suspect that 'classified projects' probably is the way Section 31 is accounted for, but there would still be accountability at some point. That's why I can't accept the notion of Section 31 being rogue. They may certainly not be main branch Starfleet, and something which most Starfleet officers never hear of, but they have to still be 'part of the heirarchy', to have access to all they have access too...
I can see what you're meaning, but that overlooks two factors: One, the length of time Section 31 has been in existence, and two, just how much clout this 'requisitions officer' realistically has... ENT shows that Section 31 has existed since before the Federation, so it's implausible that a group of freelance radicals would always be able to keep someone in the right place to be able to ensure those supply lines don't get cut. Viewing from ENT to Insurrection, suggests that Section 31 has no issue with regards resources, so those resources have to be flowing freely, leading onto my second point... 'Classified projects' only have so much leeway before the commitees which they report to expect to see results. They wouldn't be able to keep dismissing failed projects and expecting more resources. Not over several centuries... Even in a post-scarcity society, an organization will not allow someone who doesn't produce results to keep getting more resources or keep their position, there would still be a level of accountability, which an unauthorized person simoly could not maintain. I suspect that 'classified projects' probably is the way Section 31 is accounted for, but there would still be accountability at some point. That's why I can't accept the notion of Section 31 being rogue. They may certainly not be main branch Starfleet, and something which most Starfleet officers never hear of, but they have to still be 'part of the heirarchy', to have access to all they have access too...
Before the Federation, but after Starfleet. That's the key point. They were a legitimate part of Earth's Starfleet and when United Earth joined the Federation of Planets and Starfleet became the primary force among them, Section 31 came along.
The debate should be whether they remain legitimate, or if Starfleet simply never bothered dismantling them when the Federation was formed because they did their job incredibly well. It's not simply a rogue group with absolutely no legal backing, they call themselves Section 31 because Section 31 is what gives them their power.
It may very well be an outdated law that no longer applies, but still hangs around all the same. There's hundreds of them in UK law, where something old still exists, but a newer law appears to contradict it. Normally the newer law takes precedence, however there are some cases where the new law is vague enough that the old law still retains some authority despite an attempt to override it (the most documented example due to its absurdity is the idea that there is no legal backing for two women to be "intimate" which has a bizarre impact on several other laws involving couples where rules apply to male/female or male/male couples, but nothing for a female/female couple).
I can see what you're meaning, but that overlooks two factors: One, the length of time Section 31 has been in existence, and two, just how much clout this 'requisitions officer' realistically has... ENT shows that Section 31 has existed since before the Federation, so it's implausible that a group of freelance radicals would always be able to keep someone in the right place to be able to ensure those supply lines don't get cut. Viewing from ENT to Insurrection, suggests that Section 31 has no issue with regards resources, so those resources have to be flowing freely, leading onto my second point... 'Classified projects' only have so much leeway before the commitees which they report to expect to see results. They wouldn't be able to keep dismissing failed projects and expecting more resources. Not over several centuries... Even in a post-scarcity society, an organization will not allow someone who doesn't produce results to keep getting more resources or keep their position, there would still be a level of accountability, which an unauthorized person simoly could not maintain. I suspect that 'classified projects' probably is the way Section 31 is accounted for, but there would still be accountability at some point. That's why I can't accept the notion of Section 31 being rogue. They may certainly not be main branch Starfleet, and something which most Starfleet officers never hear of, but they have to still be 'part of the heirarchy', to have access to all they have access too...
Before the Federation, but after Starfleet. That's the key point. They were a legitimate part of Earth's Starfleet and when United Earth joined the Federation of Planets and Starfleet became the primary force among them, Section 31 came along.
The debate should be whether they remain legitimate, or if Starfleet simply never bothered dismantling them when the Federation was formed because they did their job incredibly well. It's not simply a rogue group with absolutely no legal backing, they call themselves Section 31 because Section 31 is what gives them their power.
It may very well be an outdated law that no longer applies, but still hangs around all the same. There's hundreds of them in UK law, where something old still exists, but a newer law appears to contradict it. Normally the newer law takes precedence, however there are some cases where the new law is vague enough that the old law still retains some authority despite an attempt to override it (the most documented example due to its absurdity is the idea that there is no legal backing for two women to be "intimate" which has a bizarre impact on several other laws involving couples where rules apply to male/female or male/male couples, but nothing for a female/female couple).
Absolutely so... I suspect it's the latter, because as above, they have access to equipment and resources which goes beyond the realms of what a rogue group would have access to, let alone ongoing access spanning centuries...
Comments
I know it's in the KT. However as S31 predates the split it doesn't matter. They're not suddenly going to be made into a legitimate organisation because of the attack on the Kelvin unless they always were, which they were.
And I was wrong, it wasn't their headquarters, just a facility, which makes more sense. It's within the Daystrom Institute so it's ideally placed for intel analysis and whatnot.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It's described in the Memory Alpha wiki as officially non-existent and autonomous and claim to protect the interests of United Earth and the Federation. Starfleet's black ops division, seperate from intelligence. A deeply buried secret.
Because that's how it is in DS9. Mainly because that's how Slone needs it to be to combat the Dominion whose founders are shapeshifters who have infiltrated the highest echelons of The Federation and Klingon Empire (and I assume the Romulan Star Empire as well). Marcus has a different vision for S31 and appears to be a big fan of out-Klingoning the Klingons and crushing them as they are already in chaos (very Undiscovered Country). There's very little S31 in ENT but it resembles a mix of the ID and DS9 versions with regards to how it operates.
In short, Slone kept S31 in the shadows (despite his manipulation of several departments of Starfleet) whereas Marcus was slightly more public with his version (I can't see Jupiter Base as very hard to find with sensors, even for civilians).
Also, take MA with even more salt than Wikipedia. It's chock full of EU and personal opinion in main articles masquerading as canon material, and so much is unsourced or uncited it's only reliable as an overview.
The fact that S31 is in the founding charter makes it officially existent even if Bashir says otherwise so MA is wrong there.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Perhaps in the Prime Timeline, the facility was blown up by Tal Shiar operatives, making the organization go 'building free' so it can't be attacked thusly again... Such a possibility would allow for Sloane's statements...
Despite the post-scarcity surface of the Federation it has always been a bit police-stateish. It has it's model and will attempt to keep that through any means. Considering the incompetence of the majority of the political and Starfleet higher ups, it's also not much of a surprise that the relatively competent S31 would work behind the scenes where they can't be interfered with by the Federation Council or whatever.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Seriously.... if you really think it needs fixed that much.... The login button is over there>
My character Tsin'xing
Nope. MA has it's own little head canon and it's own canon that differs from CBS', you've obviously read the example I posted above as well as ones in other threads, and despite your own ignorance of CBS's canon policy, you can't ignore MA's even if editors do. And no. I'm not editing it any more. Turns out after the same little band of editors with their special little books and comics keep reverting changes you make to articles, you grow bored of trying to correct them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
This is why I think canon is a dirty word, it causes too much animosity. I just treat EVERYTHING as canon, even if it contradicts (time travel paradoxes are the best explanation for that), therefore, no arguments.
No Slone was being deadly serious at the time and S31 built the Jupiter Base and dreadnought in secret in Earth's backyard and not a soul at Starfleet Command knew about it.
It's similar to how the KKK are capable of building a base off the coast of New York and producing a nuclear powered battleship and the US Government has no idea they can do it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Surely it's to maintain their whiter than white image to the other powers and still use section 31 to do their dirty work.
It's the same with the Celestial Intervention Agency, because they often violated the Time lords non-intervention policy they had to remain secretive so that the Time Lord High Council has plausible deniability, to keep their hands clean.
The CIA isn't as secretive as Section 31, many highly placed Time Lords and all the other Temporal Powers know it exists and have had dealings with it, including President Romana (who as a last act of her presidency named herself Co-Ordinator of the CIA), it's much the same as the Federation Council/Starfleet's relationship with section 31. The High Council uses them when they need them.
My character Tsin'xing
KT Section 31... As with the rest of the KT, it's militarism taken to an extreme, but also only relevant to the KT. It doesn't automatically mean that PrimeVerse Section 31 has its own secret shipyard. Data recognized the constructioon of the holoship on Ba'ku as 'clearly Federation in design'... Realistically, Section 31 would have no need to adhere to Starfleet construction styles...
Kirk and co knew nothing about it... That doesn't mean no one else at Starfleet Command knew about it (especially given how the Kelvin Archive was an openly Starfleet installation, it's inconceivably implausible that the personnel stationed there would not notice the steady stream of officers who they never actually saw during the working day, but who they see entering and leaving every day
As I said, if the Council has plausible deniability, they have plausible deniability. That doesn't preclude Higher Ups from knowing about it, and being able to allocate resources on Section 31's behalf...
any material that contradicts something from further up the chain is ignored (which is why i have stuff like technical manuals at the top, because they are CONSISTENT in their data - such a thing would help avoid nonsense like the size of the defiant or the KT constitution and vengeance)
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
My last post was sarcasm. Come on man. Just two posts up we were agreeing with each other
S31 is an official organisation and there's no way out of that for anyone.
Again, removing a book analogy. And don't be silly. CBS went out of their way to say the silly game with the Gorn was not canon and to prevent JJ from attempting to make his the only canon material around.
Plus, from what we've gleamed about DSC it will be related to the Kelvin, ENT, and Cage eras and so on, it was specifically mentioned that it will play slightly loose with existing canon. Thin is, the only canon mentioned was TV shows as it will pi5s all over those silly books that came out covering that era not too long ago and that fact wasn't even worth mentioning.
I know you edit on MA but there's no need to defend it all them time
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Also, I regularly fix anything and everything I see on MA that looks wrong. I can't think of any time I've had a serious conflict with anyone over it. Also what name did you use when editing on MA? "artan42" gives no results...
My character Tsin'xing
And yes, the KT Starfleet was a much more militarized operation. That universe might well have authorized a "black ops" section, one the President and his advisers might know about, but which might well have been kept secret from the Council (as they would have no need-to-know).
As for KT S31 building a secret ship, is that really less probable than Reman slaves building a ship that outclassed the entire RSE fleet, right under the noses of their Romulan masters? Yet not only have we as an audience swallowed that one whole, we've got multiple variants on that ship in the game.
until then, the tal shiar built most of it, shinzon just stole and finished it - kind of like how the yevetha from the star wars black fleet crisis trilogy didn't actually BUILD the fleet - they just stole it from the empire while it was in drydock after the battle of endor)
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It's been a while since I've seen the episodes so I'm really looking at Memory Alpha here, which is saying that it's Starfleet's charter Section 31 is covered in rather than the Founding Charter of the Federation.
Does make sense though. The Federation exists with its own lovely, completely innocent view of the galaxy without any issues, and delegates its space operations to Starfleet, who happen to have this covert ops organisation sneaking around. So if anything ever came back on the Federation as a whole, the blame officially lies with Starfleet, not the Council or any of the politicians because the Federation of course would abhor any such action.
Doctor Who is in the same position, sort of. TV show trumps all (a few extras here and there thrown in where possible), then you've got the expanded universe, then stuff that's definitely non-canon. They leave the middle one so vague that it allows writers to do whatever they want so long as they don't contradict the show itself (in which case it goes to the bottom of the pile). It's then left down to the fans to view the content and pick and choose as they please, but nobody is going around telling them "this is definitely wrong" (barring the obvious extreme cases).
Admittedly that is in part out of necessity, the BBC cannot canonise paid material under threat of losing its broadcasting license so everything covered by the canon policy has been "broadcast" in one form or another (even giving away video games totally for free to get round it). The only way to avoid calling it non-canon is not to label it at all.
Cerberus in Mass Effect had many of these, even some legal civilian businesses/contractors and it still didn't stop the Alliance hunting them down at every opportunity.
All it gave them was advance warning if an Alliance detachment was coming to take them out.
And Cerberus claimed the same principles as Section 31, by the way, that they were "protecting humanity, even from itself if need be".
I would speculate that anyone in Starfleet who is connected to S31 is diverting assets to them without authorization or approval from the chain of command and using the "classified project" clause to prevent investigation of where exactly those assets are going and who is using them.
In other words, S31 sympathisers are traitors to Starfleet, giving resources to a rogue organization who should not have access to them in the first place.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
I suspect the PrimeVerse does as well, they just don't want to admit it. KT Section 31 existed by 'hiding in plain sight'. The Bashir/Sisko conversations suggest that most people at Starfleet have never even heard of Section 31 nor seen them, so they can't be 'hiding in plain sight' in the same way. STO's depiction of them is even more eccentric, in so much as, The Captain suddenly gets contacted by some angry guy, and starts taking orders from him... No prior introduction to Drake whatsoever... My headcanon is that Drake paid Cara a late-night visit some time after her part in Judah Lees' trial, and said that Mad Kathy wasn't the only person in she had impressed, and that he would be keeping an eye on her career and might contact her from time to time... It's the only explanation which makes the presented scenario, of why she would follow his orders, make sense...
I can headcanon an explanation for you... Sinzon said something about 'building the Scimitar in secret...' If he was talking about the Vault, that could be where the Scimitar Class was being built for the RSE by Reman labor forces... Maybe even as a proof-of-concept prototype (which would explain the Reman control interfaces as; "Romulan interfaces will be installed in the production models..." That would explain how they were able to literally take it once the senate was overthrown. But that literally is headcanoning it... In terms of what was presented, no, it doesn't hold up when subjected to scrutiny...
That Section 31 are able to do so, as above, I think it has to be explained as an Area 51-type scenario. Someone somewhere has to sign off on the requisitions, that's something beyond Admiral Marcus' clout. He could probably make a project like that happen officially, and with full disclosure, but I doubt that he would have the personal resources to do it in secret, without someone higher up giving him the resources to play with...
Before the Federation, but after Starfleet. That's the key point. They were a legitimate part of Earth's Starfleet and when United Earth joined the Federation of Planets and Starfleet became the primary force among them, Section 31 came along.
The debate should be whether they remain legitimate, or if Starfleet simply never bothered dismantling them when the Federation was formed because they did their job incredibly well. It's not simply a rogue group with absolutely no legal backing, they call themselves Section 31 because Section 31 is what gives them their power.
It may very well be an outdated law that no longer applies, but still hangs around all the same. There's hundreds of them in UK law, where something old still exists, but a newer law appears to contradict it. Normally the newer law takes precedence, however there are some cases where the new law is vague enough that the old law still retains some authority despite an attempt to override it (the most documented example due to its absurdity is the idea that there is no legal backing for two women to be "intimate" which has a bizarre impact on several other laws involving couples where rules apply to male/female or male/male couples, but nothing for a female/female couple).