STO's depiction of them is even more eccentric, in so much as, The Captain suddenly gets contacted by some angry guy, and starts taking orders from him... No prior introduction to Drake whatsoever... My headcanon is that Drake paid Cara a late-night visit some time after her part in Judah Lees' trial, and said that Mad Kathy wasn't the only person in she had impressed, and that he would be keeping an eye on her career and might contact her from time to time... It's the only explanation which makes the presented scenario, of why she would follow his orders, make sense...
My head canon is that Drake does actually have some method of confirming his identity, like secret command codes or something....
A lot of the stuff he does is way beyond what someone who lacks official authorization COULD do. (like installing a time travel device in your ship)
The Second Amendment does not legitimize militias. The term "militia" had a defined legal meaning at the time; it referred to the population of able-bodied freemen old enough to carry a rifle and young enough not to fall down on the way to a battle (generally considered to be ages 14 to 50). What 2A does is to authorize the people at large to have access to firearms, in order to minimize the training time should the militia need to be called up. (Since the military rifle at the time was significantly similar to the civilian hunting rifle, this sufficed; and the founders of this new government had experience with a system under which they were systematically disarmed, and hadn't cared for it. It's similar to the reason why the First guarantees the freedom to say whatever you want and worships whatever you want - they hadn't cared for the British Empire's restrictions on those, either.)
Modern militias in the US actually tend to throw out any parts of the Constitution that annoy them, and insist that if a flag has a fringe, it's a "maritime" flag and thus any government building displaying one is illegitimate.
Given the actual information we've gotten, and the reliability of those passing said information to us, it's entirely possible that "Section 31" is a handful of guys with one warp-drive ship, a surplus Klingon cloak, and either more chutzpah than Harry Mudd ever dreamed of or a sincere belief that the guy giving them their orders really is in command of some supersecret Federation intelligence arm (after all, the Klingons have one, the Cardassians have one, the Romulans have one, and all governments are essentially the same, right? Therefore the Federation must have one too, right?).
STO's depiction of them is even more eccentric, in so much as, The Captain suddenly gets contacted by some angry guy, and starts taking orders from him... No prior introduction to Drake whatsoever... My headcanon is that Drake paid Cara a late-night visit some time after her part in Judah Lees' trial, and said that Mad Kathy wasn't the only person in she had impressed, and that he would be keeping an eye on her career and might contact her from time to time... It's the only explanation which makes the presented scenario, of why she would follow his orders, make sense...
My head canon is that Drake does actually have some method of confirming his identity, like secret command codes or something....
A lot of the stuff he does is way beyond what someone who lacks official authorization COULD do. (like installing a time travel device in your ship)
Even his appearances at the foot of Bashir's bed, would be beyond the capability of any random fanatic roaming the halls of DS-9 And for sure, he must have command codes and authorizations for either dealing with any crew he encounters while making such modifications, or even giving them the orders to do it themself
One thing you're overlooking: S31 has admirals and bureaucratic trickery.
Citation: Admiral Ross helped Sloan on the Romulus operation, and Sloan (or one of his aliases, I forget which) was identified as a member of Starfleet Security. (Which, incidentally, is what my memory says is where Reed's contact from ENT was identified as working, too.)
Section 31 is pretty much illegal in terms of what it does. It also doesn't exist, except when it wants to (Sloan, Reed's contact, etc.). Neither of those don't mean it doesn't (or can't, for that matter) maintain a lot of friends in high places.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
The Second Amendment does not legitimize militias. The term "militia" had a defined legal meaning at the time; it referred to the population of able-bodied freemen old enough to carry a rifle and young enough not to fall down on the way to a battle (generally considered to be ages 14 to 50). What 2A does is to authorize the people at large to have access to firearms, in order to minimize the training time should the militia need to be called up. (Since the military rifle at the time was significantly similar to the civilian hunting rifle, this sufficed; and the founders of this new government had experience with a system under which they were systematically disarmed, and hadn't cared for it. It's similar to the reason why the First guarantees the freedom to say whatever you want and worships whatever you want - they hadn't cared for the British Empire's restrictions on those, either.)
Modern militias in the US actually tend to throw out any parts of the Constitution that annoy them, and insist that if a flag has a fringe, it's a "maritime" flag and thus any government building displaying one is illegitimate.
Given the actual information we've gotten, and the reliability of those passing said information to us, it's entirely possible that "Section 31" is a handful of guys with one warp-drive ship, a surplus Klingon cloak, and either more chutzpah than Harry Mudd ever dreamed of or a sincere belief that the guy giving them their orders really is in command of some supersecret Federation intelligence arm (after all, the Klingons have one, the Cardassians have one, the Romulans have one, and all governments are essentially the same, right? Therefore the Federation must have one too, right?).
That's what I meant by legitimizing a militia, by giving provision for their formation should the need arise...
And absolutely, that's the problem with radical groups, they only use the legislation which supports (however loosely) their point, and disregard anything else.
I certainly see what you mean about someone believing that the guy giving them orders is legit, so they likely recruit from a very narrow psychological profile, afterall, someone who questions every order, wouldn't serve effectively; By the time they finish questioning the order, the need for it to be carried out has passed... Someone like Bashir, it played into his spy fantasies... Someone like Malcolm, they would have played on his sense of duty and obligation as their leverage. Someone like Sisko, they would have to either make a better case, or completely redirect him into thinking he's doing one thing, when he's actually doing something else (as Garak did) Someone like Cara, they would have to make her feel that she's appreciated, and doing a good job; essentially using a little bit of ego-stroking, to compound an existing inclination to want to be helpful, and then tell her how she can be helpful... Of course, if the guy making contact has the resources to actually demonstrate legitimacy beyond a fringe organization, that's going to go a long way to overcoming any reluctance or wariness..
My headcanon, FWIW, is that S31 is real, but that it's not sanctioned by either Starfleet or the Council. Instead, it's bankrolled by a small group of wealthy men, and has suborned a handful of pivotal Starfleet personnel, in a manner not unlike the previously-cited Cerberus organization in the Mass Effect games. Drake is the face, with access to comm codes he should not have, using guile and veiled threats to persuade us to carry out his plans. So far, the ones in-game actually have been for the benefit of the Federation as a whole - but in my own stories, I think I've made it pretty plain what Grunt thinks of the whole idea in general, and of Drake in particular (you should have seen the reaction he had in my head when he found out Drake had implanted a device aboard his ship without his permission, especially a Borg device, in "Night of the Comet"). One of the major reasons Grunt agreed to sign up with Starfleet Intelligence was to help bring down Section 31, and I've been toying with story ideas regarding that.
All this is, however, just headcanon, not directly supported by the fragmentary evidence we have from the shows. (STO is little more than headcanon itself, after all... )
One thing you're overlooking: S31 has admirals and bureaucratic trickery.
Citation: Admiral Ross helped Sloan on the Romulus operation, and Sloan (or one of his aliases, I forget which) was identified as a member of Starfleet Security. (Which, incidentally, is what my memory says is where Reed's contact from ENT was identified as working, too.)
Section 31 is pretty much illegal in terms of what it does. It also doesn't exist, except when it wants to (Sloan, Reed's contact, etc.). Neither of those don't mean it doesn't (or can't, for that matter) maintain a lot of friends in high places.
That's true, but unless Admiral Ross is a Chief O'Brien level transporter genius (certainly possible) it's likely that he would have had to order crew members to perform the extraction, and that probably needed a real-time monitoring of the situation, so potentially sensor technicians, or maybe even the primary bridge crew. That's a lot of people to bring in on an operation which has no official sanction...
It's legality, as opposed to its legitimacy, I would simply point out that contemporary intelligence agencies no doubt also do things which may be considered 'illegal', but which are necessary for a greater good... Also, Section 31 takes its mandate from legislation specificly allowing circumvention of laws in times of dire emergency, which in itself, comes under the concepts of 'what is necessary is legal', and 'necessity knows no law'... I would say it's the distinction between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law.
How Section 31 is percieved by the audience, however, is largely a matter of presentation. It could just as easily have been presented as a secret saviour of the Federation, taking actions which 'mundanes' like Picard, would be incapable of performing...
My headcanon, FWIW, is that S31 is real, but that it's not sanctioned by either Starfleet or the Council. Instead, it's bankrolled by a small group of wealthy men, and has suborned a handful of pivotal Starfleet personnel, in a manner not unlike the previously-cited Cerberus organization in the Mass Effect games. Drake is the face, with access to comm codes he should not have, using guile and veiled threats to persuade us to carry out his plans. So far, the ones in-game actually have been for the benefit of the Federation as a whole - but in my own stories, I think I've made it pretty plain what Grunt thinks of the whole idea in general, and of Drake in particular (you should have seen the reaction he had in my head when he found out Drake had implanted a device aboard his ship without his permission, especially a Borg device, in "Night of the Comet"). One of the major reasons Grunt agreed to sign up with Starfleet Intelligence was to help bring down Section 31, and I've been toying with story ideas regarding that.
All this is, however, just headcanon, not directly supported by the fragmentary evidence we have from the shows. (STO is little more than headcanon itself, after all... )
That's certainly an interesting concept How would you deal with the absolute necessity of definitely gaining the cooperation of those high-level officers over such an extended period to guarantee consistency of resources for their operations? On the scale of a single mission, yes, that I can accept as somehow obtainable, but over the course of centuries, that's why I'm thinking official sanction and backing (even if only from the very highest level...)
I'm not assuming it's existed for centuries. It's probably more like, say, military units whose colors are retired when a given situation has ended, only to be reused later. The unit claims continuity of history, but in fact the new unit just builds on the history of the old one. (For instance, there's my roommate's old Army unit, 4th Brigade 2nd Division (the Raiders), which was activated at Ft. Lewis, WA, shortly before it became Joint Base Lewis-McChord, and deactivated in 2014. Their official "brigade history" claims continuity back to the Battle of the Bulge, although it's been deactivated and reactivated on at least four occasions over the years.)
Similarly, in my headcanon, S31 as we know it today has only existed since the Cardassian War, when certain Starfleet admirals saw the use of a deniable asset and pulled the idea from history. One or more of them groomed junior officers to believe in the idea as well, and now helps back the group from behind the scenes. Those junior officers are now the suborned senior officers, and are probably seeking out juniors to bring in to follow them. (There will always be those who are persuadable, either because they don't have a problem with the whole idea or because they idealize the senior persuading them and will fool themselves into swallowing the story they're given.)
See, I have to headcanon it like this because the very concept of S31 is so powerfully at odds with everything we were told about the Trekverse starting in TOS and continuing through TNG. I can find no way to reconcile a semiofficial Starfleet black ops group dating back to the founding of the Federation, or even further, with the events of such episodes as "The Trouble With Tribbles" or "Patterns of Force". If there were such a group, why weren't they dispatched to deal with those situations, rather than Kirk and his team of semicivilians and idealists? Why would Khan's group on Ceti Alpha V be left to their own devices for fifteen years, rather than being either recruited or eliminated by S31? For that matter, where was this mysterious, seemingly all-powerful organization when Admiral Cartwright was conspiring with Klingons to threaten the Federation with war unending in ST6? It just doesn't work for me.
Cartwright may have been S31 himself. As for Khan, I doubt the Augments would be recruitable, and S31 could conceivably have thought them irrelevant given their low level of technology.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
It wouldn't surprise me if S31 had decided to create their own augments just in case they needed to "deal with" Khan later. Negotiating with Khan? yeah we saw how that worked out in KT.
Completely unofficial and not part of Starfleet right?
Again, imagine the KKK building a nuclear powered battleship off the coast of New York.
Section 31 is built into the Earth Starfleet charter, the Earth Starfleet became the Federation one in what seems to be a direct transfer (absolutely everything in the FS is identical to ES with no input from any other race).
Ross takes orders from Slone.
Starfleet Medical classifies documents above Sisko's clearance under orders from Section 31.
Has at least one cloaked Federation styled vessel.
Builds a Dreadnought Class battleship with full knowledge of Starfleet command under a Starfleet Fleet Admiral.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'm not assuming it's existed for centuries. It's probably more like, say, military units whose colors are retired when a given situation has ended, only to be reused later. The unit claims continuity of history, but in fact the new unit just builds on the history of the old one. (For instance, there's my roommate's old Army unit, 4th Brigade 2nd Division (the Raiders), which was activated at Ft. Lewis, WA, shortly before it became Joint Base Lewis-McChord, and deactivated in 2014. Their official "brigade history" claims continuity back to the Battle of the Bulge, although it's been deactivated and reactivated on at least four occasions over the years.)
Ahhh, yes, I totally get where you're coming from, that definitely makes sense...
Similarly, in my headcanon, S31 as we know it today has only existed since the Cardassian War, when certain Starfleet admirals saw the use of a deniable asset and pulled the idea from history. One or more of them groomed junior officers to believe in the idea as well, and now helps back the group from behind the scenes. Those junior officers are now the suborned senior officers, and are probably seeking out juniors to bring in to follow them. (There will always be those who are persuadable, either because they don't have a problem with the whole idea or because they idealize the senior persuading them and will fool themselves into swallowing the story they're given.[/])
Yeah, that makes sense, the new recruits essentially become tomorrow's recruiters... I think Cara was persuadable, in so much as Pentaxians can be incredibly naive, and believe what they're told, because deception is anathema to them. In this specific instance, Drake would be able to manipulate her appreciation for what Mad Kathy's done for her career, by saying she has the attention of other senior officers, and thst they appreciate her efforts... She doesn't live for praise and validation, and doesn't have to be praised for what she does, she would do it anyway, but what she does need, is 'something to do', and isn't a fan of flipping her tongue (Pentaxian equivalent of thumb-twiddling) so someone coming to her with 'important mission which we need dealt with', plays right into that need to 'be useful'...
See, I have to headcanon it like this because the very concept of S31 is so powerfully at odds with everything we were told about the Trekverse starting in TOS and continuing through TNG. I can find no way to reconcile a semiofficial Starfleet black ops group dating back to the founding of the Federation, or even further, with the events of such episodes as "The Trouble With Tribbles" or "Patterns of Force". If there were such a group, why weren't they dispatched to deal with those situations, rather than Kirk and his team of semicivilians and idealists? Why would Khan's group on Ceti Alpha V be left to their own devices for fifteen years, rather than being either recruited or eliminated by S31? For that matter, where was this mysterious, seemingly all-powerful organization when Admiral Cartwright was conspiring with Klingons to threaten the Federation with war unending in ST6? It just doesn't work for me.
I see what you mean... A deactivated then reactivated organization would account for those historical disappearances... Of course, another explanation would be that just because we didn't see them, it doesn't mean they weren't there, but you're right, by having Section 31 in ENT, we need to know why they then disappeared until DS-9...
See, I have to headcanon it like this because the very concept of S31 is so powerfully at odds with everything we were told about the Trekverse starting in TOS and continuing through TNG. I can find no way to reconcile a semiofficial Starfleet black ops group dating back to the founding of the Federation, or even further, with the events of such episodes as "The Trouble With Tribbles" or "Patterns of Force". If there were such a group, why weren't they dispatched to deal with those situations, rather than Kirk and his team of semicivilians and idealists? Why would Khan's group on Ceti Alpha V be left to their own devices for fifteen years, rather than being either recruited or eliminated by S31? For that matter, where was this mysterious, seemingly all-powerful organization when Admiral Cartwright was conspiring with Klingons to threaten the Federation with war unending in ST6? It just doesn't work for me.
I see what you mean... A deactivated then reactivated organization would account for those historical disappearances... Of course, another explanation would be that just because we didn't see them, it doesn't mean they weren't there, but you're right, by having Section 31 in ENT, we need to know why they then disappeared until DS-9...
Because that's what Starfleet Intelligence is for. Section 31 has only appeared to undertake massive change. Wipe out the Klingons in ID, wipe out the Founders in DS9 and then destabilise the RSE in IASL. The only plot S31 needed to be in to keep their appearance retroactive was TUC, and even then only to wipe out the Klingons, not to play West's and Chang's silly war game.
I can't remember what Harris was doing in ENT (mucking about with Augments and Klingons for something) but I don't think we've heard of a Earth Intelligence unit.
I just assume nobody in Command triggers Article 14, Section 31 unless there's a full scale war of annihilation or the possibility of one.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'd say that they have periods where they merely lurk in the shadows. Organizations like that need to build their power base by networking and placing agents constantly they can't just shut the organization off.
I assume that if you appeal to someone's sense of duty, fanaticism or whatever else you can exploit to secure their loyalty, then it would be possible to secure moles/agents in various positions of authority.
As for accounting where the assets went, you could just say "Shipment X was stolen by pirates" and therefore not have to explain where it went.
Example, S31 is like Cerberus, that would be an example of an on-topic discussion.
Post edited by tilarta on
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
I think that Doctor Who has the edge on Star Trek with this one, being more a time travel based Sci-fi the writers have a lot more experience in writing these kinds of adventures and delivering a far more dramatic impact, rather than just repeating events over and over like Star Trek seems to do (with Cause and Effect) they also give us the emotional impact of being caught up in a seemingly inescapable loop (in the case of Protect and Survive)
I think that Doctor Who has the edge on Star Trek with this one, being more a time travel based Sci-fi the writers have a lot more experience in writing these kinds of adventures and delivering a far more dramatic impact, rather than just repeating events over and over like Star Trek seems to do (with Cause and Effect) they also give us the emotional impact of being caught up in a seemingly inescapable loop (in the case of Protect and Survive)
The distinction I would make between the two series, is that in Doctor Who, the causality loops tend to focus on a historical event, where in Star Trek, they seem to focus on loops of a more personal nature, as opposed to galactic events
The distinction I would make between the two series, is that in Doctor Who, the causality loops tend to focus on a historical event, where in Star Trek, they seem to focus on loops of a more personal nature, as opposed to galactic events
Agreed, also, the time loops in Star Trek seem to be written as something for the crew to cleverly think their way out of/use as an advantage to get out of a sticky situation and in Doctor Who they're written more like a way to trap an enemy or teach that enemy a lesson
The distinction I would make between the two series, is that in Doctor Who, the causality loops tend to focus on a historical event, where in Star Trek, they seem to focus on loops of a more personal nature, as opposed to galactic events
Agreed, also, the time loops in Star Trek seem to be written as something for the crew to cleverly think their way out of/use as an advantage to get out of a sticky situation and in Doctor Who they're written more like a way to trap an enemy or teach that enemy a lesson
Stargate had a variation on this, where some scientist trying to go back in time activates a machine that causes a section of the Stargate network to cause a time loop.
At the end of the episode, it is stated that the section of the galaxy which was looping had been reliving the same day for 3 months!
I thought Star Trek itself didn't have much time travel technology, making it harder for them to experience or cause time loops.
Post edited by tilarta on
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Doctor Who and Star Trek have the "redshirt characters", those characters whose only job in the shows is to come in, go "AARRGGGHHHH" and die.
Doctor Who seems to go in for the more horrific or imaginative deaths, death by Tissue Compression Eliminator is a particular favourite of mine (because I'm maladjusted ), trust me, if you think seeing a shrunken corpse is bad enough, you want to HEAR it happening to someone.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The problem with the Cybermen is that some writers/showrunners try to make them something they're not, in a bid to replace the Daleks.
It really is rather interesting to watch their "development" (idea that got totally lost) throughout the classic series. When we were first introduced to them, they were simply "us". They were humans from a mirrored Earth, who replaced bits of their bodies with cybernetics to stave off death, eventually losing emotions. Their plan was to drain Earth's power and convert the human race.
Eric Saward meanwhile wrote them as a galactic threat (originally they had enough trouble fighting modern day Earth), that was more interested in conquest than survival.
RTD wrote them as robots with a catchphrase.
They were essentially the Borg in Nightmare in Silver. By that point humanities technology had progressed so far they could destroy galaxies, so insano tech is probably to be expected from both parties. Insano tech is frankly one of my many problems with Moffat's era. That and him using handwaving as a crutch for his stories. Another is that his era lacks redshirts.
The Daleks were never the Borg anyway. Even their shield started off as something different, merely designed to vapourise bullets (back during that point of new Who, energy weapons were mostly for aliens only). I think RTD didn't get what the writer was on about and simply turned it into a full blown forcefield. Even then it had more in common with the war machines in the 1953 War of the Worlds movie (especially given their HG Wells connections).
As for Daleks vs Cybermen, the Cybermen would have never stood a chance no matter the era. Iconic though they were, the Cybermen were never the right fit for a galactic threat. They were a threat to Earth and that was it. They aren't in the same league as the Sontarans, the Rutans, the Daleks or even the Judoon. They are simply a dying race, struggling to survive at any cost.
As for the Movellans, the nearest we get to canon is in the novelisation of Remembrance of the Daleks, where it started the imperial Daleks wiped them out.
---
Anyway, both shows started out as family shows, began to veer overly towards appealing to us geeks/nerds and died because of it.
By that point humanities technology had progressed so far they could destroy galaxies, so insano tech is probably to be expected from both parties. Insano tech is frankly one of my many problems with Moffat's era. That and him using handwaving as a crutch for his stories. Another is that his era lacks redshirts.
It's nothing to do with Moffat. Many races from the very start have been multi-galaxy spanning. The Daleks live in a different galaxy and still were able to invade Earth, the Dravens (a relatively minor power) exist in another and were still part of the Pandorica Alliance. The Multi-Galaxy Human Empire is a concept dating way back to the first Doctor's era.
You do not get empires that size without ridiculously advanced tech.
Everybody from the Ice Warriors (a group of nearly extinct warriors from a single planet) to the Sontarans (a clone race locked in a centuries old war) has access to T-Mat devices that (unlike Transporters) seem to have no weaknesses and work over immeasurable distances and sometimes back in time.
I don't know what drives most ships use as it's never really mentioned, but you'd need fast ones to keep an Empire that spans three Galaxies in place.
Earthshock and Day of the Daleks show readily available time travel even for lower races and not just the Daleks (who invented their own TARDIS' after all) and Time Lords (who use SUNS as engines).
Planetary shields that can keep a Dalek fleet out exist as do single ships with planet destroying capabilities.
These are not concepts invented post 2005. Every example there is from pre-2005 except the Planetary shields (from Asylum of the Daleks).
Not a single (well non-god like anyway) race in Wars, Trek, B5, Stargate, or whatever comes close. Simply because DW has never bothered (or very seldom anyway) with science fiction, it's always been fairy tales.
Did you Have to bring that one up, I need some kind of antidote
*Snip*
That poor Time Lord seems mildly perturbed to be confronted with the possibility .
But I do enjoy seeing the Master performing random acts of cruelty.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
the Dravens (a relatively minor power) exist in another and were still part of the Pandorica Alliance.
Who are you talking about here, never heard of them? I'm guessing you mean Drahvin's
Yup. Aint nobody got no time to check dat spelling .
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
A lot of the stuff he does is way beyond what someone who lacks official authorization COULD do. (like installing a time travel device in your ship)
My character Tsin'xing
Modern militias in the US actually tend to throw out any parts of the Constitution that annoy them, and insist that if a flag has a fringe, it's a "maritime" flag and thus any government building displaying one is illegitimate.
Given the actual information we've gotten, and the reliability of those passing said information to us, it's entirely possible that "Section 31" is a handful of guys with one warp-drive ship, a surplus Klingon cloak, and either more chutzpah than Harry Mudd ever dreamed of or a sincere belief that the guy giving them their orders really is in command of some supersecret Federation intelligence arm (after all, the Klingons have one, the Cardassians have one, the Romulans have one, and all governments are essentially the same, right? Therefore the Federation must have one too, right?).
Citation: Admiral Ross helped Sloan on the Romulus operation, and Sloan (or one of his aliases, I forget which) was identified as a member of Starfleet Security. (Which, incidentally, is what my memory says is where Reed's contact from ENT was identified as working, too.)
Section 31 is pretty much illegal in terms of what it does. It also doesn't exist, except when it wants to (Sloan, Reed's contact, etc.). Neither of those don't mean it doesn't (or can't, for that matter) maintain a lot of friends in high places.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And absolutely, that's the problem with radical groups, they only use the legislation which supports (however loosely) their point, and disregard anything else.
I certainly see what you mean about someone believing that the guy giving them orders is legit, so they likely recruit from a very narrow psychological profile, afterall, someone who questions every order, wouldn't serve effectively; By the time they finish questioning the order, the need for it to be carried out has passed... Someone like Bashir, it played into his spy fantasies... Someone like Malcolm, they would have played on his sense of duty and obligation as their leverage. Someone like Sisko, they would have to either make a better case, or completely redirect him into thinking he's doing one thing, when he's actually doing something else (as Garak did) Someone like Cara, they would have to make her feel that she's appreciated, and doing a good job; essentially using a little bit of ego-stroking, to compound an existing inclination to want to be helpful, and then tell her how she can be helpful... Of course, if the guy making contact has the resources to actually demonstrate legitimacy beyond a fringe organization, that's going to go a long way to overcoming any reluctance or wariness..
All this is, however, just headcanon, not directly supported by the fragmentary evidence we have from the shows. (STO is little more than headcanon itself, after all...
It's legality, as opposed to its legitimacy, I would simply point out that contemporary intelligence agencies no doubt also do things which may be considered 'illegal', but which are necessary for a greater good... Also, Section 31 takes its mandate from legislation specificly allowing circumvention of laws in times of dire emergency, which in itself, comes under the concepts of 'what is necessary is legal', and 'necessity knows no law'... I would say it's the distinction between the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law.
How Section 31 is percieved by the audience, however, is largely a matter of presentation. It could just as easily have been presented as a secret saviour of the Federation, taking actions which 'mundanes' like Picard, would be incapable of performing...
That's certainly an interesting concept
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
Not being "officially sanctioned" is what makes it black ops.
My character Tsin'xing
Similarly, in my headcanon, S31 as we know it today has only existed since the Cardassian War, when certain Starfleet admirals saw the use of a deniable asset and pulled the idea from history. One or more of them groomed junior officers to believe in the idea as well, and now helps back the group from behind the scenes. Those junior officers are now the suborned senior officers, and are probably seeking out juniors to bring in to follow them. (There will always be those who are persuadable, either because they don't have a problem with the whole idea or because they idealize the senior persuading them and will fool themselves into swallowing the story they're given.)
See, I have to headcanon it like this because the very concept of S31 is so powerfully at odds with everything we were told about the Trekverse starting in TOS and continuing through TNG. I can find no way to reconcile a semiofficial Starfleet black ops group dating back to the founding of the Federation, or even further, with the events of such episodes as "The Trouble With Tribbles" or "Patterns of Force". If there were such a group, why weren't they dispatched to deal with those situations, rather than Kirk and his team of semicivilians and idealists? Why would Khan's group on Ceti Alpha V be left to their own devices for fifteen years, rather than being either recruited or eliminated by S31? For that matter, where was this mysterious, seemingly all-powerful organization when Admiral Cartwright was conspiring with Klingons to threaten the Federation with war unending in ST6? It just doesn't work for me.
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
My character Tsin'xing
Again, imagine the KKK building a nuclear powered battleship off the coast of New York.
Section 31 is built into the Earth Starfleet charter, the Earth Starfleet became the Federation one in what seems to be a direct transfer (absolutely everything in the FS is identical to ES with no input from any other race).
Ross takes orders from Slone.
Starfleet Medical classifies documents above Sisko's clearance under orders from Section 31.
Has at least one cloaked Federation styled vessel.
Builds a Dreadnought Class battleship with full knowledge of Starfleet command under a Starfleet Fleet Admiral.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Yeah, that makes sense, the new recruits essentially become tomorrow's recruiters... I think Cara was persuadable, in so much as Pentaxians can be incredibly naive, and believe what they're told, because deception is anathema to them. In this specific instance, Drake would be able to manipulate her appreciation for what Mad Kathy's done for her career, by saying she has the attention of other senior officers, and thst they appreciate her efforts... She doesn't live for praise and validation, and doesn't have to be praised for what she does, she would do it anyway, but what she does need, is 'something to do', and isn't a fan of flipping her tongue (Pentaxian equivalent of thumb-twiddling) so someone coming to her with 'important mission which we need dealt with', plays right into that need to 'be useful'...
I see what you mean... A deactivated then reactivated organization would account for those historical disappearances... Of course, another explanation would be that just because we didn't see them, it doesn't mean they weren't there, but you're right, by having Section 31 in ENT, we need to know why they then disappeared until DS-9...
Because that's what Starfleet Intelligence is for. Section 31 has only appeared to undertake massive change. Wipe out the Klingons in ID, wipe out the Founders in DS9 and then destabilise the RSE in IASL. The only plot S31 needed to be in to keep their appearance retroactive was TUC, and even then only to wipe out the Klingons, not to play West's and Chang's silly war game.
I can't remember what Harris was doing in ENT (mucking about with Augments and Klingons for something) but I don't think we've heard of a Earth Intelligence unit.
I just assume nobody in Command triggers Article 14, Section 31 unless there's a full scale war of annihilation or the possibility of one.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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My character Tsin'xing
As for accounting where the assets went, you could just say "Shipment X was stolen by pirates" and therefore not have to explain where it went.
Example, S31 is like Cerberus, that would be an example of an on-topic discussion.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Star Trek has Cause and Effect http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Cause_and_Effect_(episode)
and Future Tense http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Future_Tense_(episode)
For Doctor Who we have The Claws of Axos http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Claws_of_Axos_(TV_story)
The Armageddon Factor http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Armageddon_Factor_(TV_story)
and Protect and Survive (audio story) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009szrh/episodes/player
There are probably many more but I can't think of any right now
I think that Doctor Who has the edge on Star Trek with this one, being more a time travel based Sci-fi the writers have a lot more experience in writing these kinds of adventures and delivering a far more dramatic impact, rather than just repeating events over and over like Star Trek seems to do (with Cause and Effect) they also give us the emotional impact of being caught up in a seemingly inescapable loop (in the case of Protect and Survive)
Agreed, also, the time loops in Star Trek seem to be written as something for the crew to cleverly think their way out of/use as an advantage to get out of a sticky situation and in Doctor Who they're written more like a way to trap an enemy or teach that enemy a lesson
At the end of the episode, it is stated that the section of the galaxy which was looping had been reliving the same day for 3 months!
I thought Star Trek itself didn't have much time travel technology, making it harder for them to experience or cause time loops.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Doctor Who seems to go in for the more horrific or imaginative deaths, death by Tissue Compression Eliminator is a particular favourite of mine (because I'm maladjusted
Star Trek doesn't have much in the way of horrific deaths, but what it does have is pretty spectacular
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The problem with the Cybermen is that some writers/showrunners try to make them something they're not, in a bid to replace the Daleks.
It really is rather interesting to watch their "development" (idea that got totally lost) throughout the classic series. When we were first introduced to them, they were simply "us". They were humans from a mirrored Earth, who replaced bits of their bodies with cybernetics to stave off death, eventually losing emotions. Their plan was to drain Earth's power and convert the human race.
Eric Saward meanwhile wrote them as a galactic threat (originally they had enough trouble fighting modern day Earth), that was more interested in conquest than survival.
RTD wrote them as robots with a catchphrase.
They were essentially the Borg in Nightmare in Silver. By that point humanities technology had progressed so far they could destroy galaxies, so insano tech is probably to be expected from both parties. Insano tech is frankly one of my many problems with Moffat's era. That and him using handwaving as a crutch for his stories. Another is that his era lacks redshirts.
The Daleks were never the Borg anyway. Even their shield started off as something different, merely designed to vapourise bullets (back during that point of new Who, energy weapons were mostly for aliens only). I think RTD didn't get what the writer was on about and simply turned it into a full blown forcefield. Even then it had more in common with the war machines in the 1953 War of the Worlds movie (especially given their HG Wells connections).
As for Daleks vs Cybermen, the Cybermen would have never stood a chance no matter the era. Iconic though they were, the Cybermen were never the right fit for a galactic threat. They were a threat to Earth and that was it. They aren't in the same league as the Sontarans, the Rutans, the Daleks or even the Judoon. They are simply a dying race, struggling to survive at any cost.
As for the Movellans, the nearest we get to canon is in the novelisation of Remembrance of the Daleks, where it started the imperial Daleks wiped them out.
---
Anyway, both shows started out as family shows, began to veer overly towards appealing to us geeks/nerds and died because of it.
Daizen - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Selia - Lvl 60 Tactical - Eclipse
Did you Have to bring that one up, I need some kind of antidote
It's nothing to do with Moffat. Many races from the very start have been multi-galaxy spanning. The Daleks live in a different galaxy and still were able to invade Earth, the Dravens (a relatively minor power) exist in another and were still part of the Pandorica Alliance. The Multi-Galaxy Human Empire is a concept dating way back to the first Doctor's era.
You do not get empires that size without ridiculously advanced tech.
Everybody from the Ice Warriors (a group of nearly extinct warriors from a single planet) to the Sontarans (a clone race locked in a centuries old war) has access to T-Mat devices that (unlike Transporters) seem to have no weaknesses and work over immeasurable distances and sometimes back in time.
I don't know what drives most ships use as it's never really mentioned, but you'd need fast ones to keep an Empire that spans three Galaxies in place.
Earthshock and Day of the Daleks show readily available time travel even for lower races and not just the Daleks (who invented their own TARDIS' after all) and Time Lords (who use SUNS as engines).
Planetary shields that can keep a Dalek fleet out exist as do single ships with planet destroying capabilities.
These are not concepts invented post 2005. Every example there is from pre-2005 except the Planetary shields (from Asylum of the Daleks).
Not a single (well non-god like anyway) race in Wars, Trek, B5, Stargate, or whatever comes close. Simply because DW has never bothered (or very seldom anyway) with science fiction, it's always been fairy tales.
That poor Time Lord seems mildly perturbed to be confronted with the possibility
But I do enjoy seeing the Master performing random acts of cruelty.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Who are you talking about here, never heard of them? I'm guessing you mean Drahvin's
Yup. Aint nobody got no time to check dat spelling
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!