No topic, move along home

tilarta

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bobbydazlers

it could be said that star trek was the first to do the envying with their part man part machine borg which is basically an adaptation of the dr. who cybermen of 1966.
of course times change and scenes are added and adapted to show more gore, violation and violence which is what the viewing public has come to expect from modern tv these days.
then of course powers are added to intensify the suspense of the drama as in the flying dalecs that were never seen in earlier versions of the show.
but then any could be accused of copying the idea as it was Manfred Clynes coined the word cyborg in 1960.
I am sure if you look you will find most tv and movie ideas have sprung from previously thought of subjects and ideas.

in fact you should read this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3679510/There-just-SIX-plots-film-book-TV-Researchers-reveal-building-blocks-storytelling.html

edrogen

Dr. Who?

artan42

tilarta wrote: »

It was recommended on this forum that I haven't watched enough of the new Dr Who episodes to form an opinion as to their quality, so I selected two more to get better informed.
I chose the ones where the Daleks first encounter the Cybermen, because I thought that would be intriguing to see, as it had never been done before in the Classic Who series.

At this point, I had a theory that Nu Who was feeling intimidated by the Borg, so were retconning the Cybermen to be more like the Borg and making them overpowered just to make them extra impressive.
After seeing these two episodes, my opinion went from supposition to certainty.

When the Daleks finally make their presence known to the Cybermen, there is a resulting energy weapon battle.
When the Cyberweapons hit the Daleks, it looks they've been given their own version of the Borg adaptive shielding, absorbing the energy without being harmed.

The Cyberconversion process in has also been changed.
In the original version, the subject was drugged, then had the conversion harness clamped around their torso. In this stage, the arms and legs are converted first, they show this with Toberman from Tomb of the Cybermen and one of the prisoners in Attack of the Cybermen.
If the subject does not reject the process (some do) at this point, full conversion happens later.
In the new version, it's now similar to what happens in the Borg assimilation annex, but much more unpleasant.
But it's very similar to the Borg scenes on Star Trek, we hear offscreen screaming and a Cyberman comes out of the room.

Doctor Who. Not Dr Who.

No. The Borg are similar to the Cybermen but their main difference is in the assimilation vs. conversion process. Cybermen replace body parts with metal and plastic, Borg inject nanoprobes into the victim. The Borg assimilate knowledge and technology that way. Cybermen reproduce through Cyberconversion.

Also, the Cybermen have a shtick, it's survival. They adapt to survive. They convert the brightest minds (seen in Tomb) to continue their race's survival. That includes learning to use shielding and so on.

tilarta wrote: »

They should have kept their greatest enemies unique, not make them similar to foes from another show in a similar category.
If your creations aren't good enough as they were, it makes you look insecure if you have to "upgrade" them to compensate.
Especially if you are just imitating an original idea and not making your own concepts.

Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahaha!

The Borg, an original concept.

You'd think I was all out of laughter, but I'm not...

Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahaha!

Edit: Oh, it's you @tilarta I thought maybe it was somebody else with an irrational brain and a dislike of change. Firstly this thread belongs in Ten Forward, secondly, your arguments on the Cybermen were already without merit or logic when you first unleashed them, they're still as ridiculous now.

Edit, Edit: You still haven't learnt the name of the show it seems.​​

salazarraze

tilarta wrote: »

I chose the ones where the Daleks first encounter the Cybermen, because I thought that would be intriguing to see, as it had never been done before in the Classic Who series.

At this point, I had a theory that Nu Who was feeling intimidated by the Borg, so were retconning the Cybermen to be more like the Borg and making them overpowered just to make them extra impressive.
After seeing these two episodes, my opinion went from supposition to certainty.

I think that it's more a product of production technology and quality increasing over time which allows for greater creative freedom. Today's light saber fights are more aggressive and visually impressive than the original Ben Kenobi/Vader "fight" in the original Star Wars. The bridge on the JJprise is more advanced and shiny looking than the TOS Enterprise bridge. Do these examples show "envy" for some other franchise or has technology improved to the point that writers, directors, and producers can augment outdated characters and give them a face lift?

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ltminns

What a wholely condescending post.

leemwatson

The Cybermen in the latest Who-verse are not the same Cybermen in the earlier Whos. There was NO retconning done as the new versions came from an alternate universe Earth, where as the Old ones were from the original universe.

pobatti

Doctor Who fans have been campaigning for years to get the original style Cybermen back, updated of course. The "Cybusmen" we've had since 2005 are really rather lame, and their chunky 1980's counterparts were embarrasing to say the least.

So DW got the basic idea down first, then failed to capitalise on that by going in a very silly childish direction. Star Trek's Borg are what I like to think the Cybermen should have been, but since Cybermen of the last 30 years and the Borg are so radically different who really cares if they're built off the same template? But as I said, it does highlight the fact the Cybermen were squandered, and since the Borg are here it's too late to really rectify that without (ironically, truth be told) fans mistakenly believing they're directly copying the Borg.

pobatti

leemwatson wrote: »

The Cybermen in the latest Who-verse are not the same Cybermen in the earlier Whos. There was NO retconning done as the new versions came from an alternate universe Earth, where as the Old ones were from the original universe.

That changed a while back.

Only the early New Who Cybermen were from Pete's World. Newer ones from Matt Smith's era on are Mondasian... but you wouldn't know that from looks alone.

tilarta

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pobatti

I suppose we're all different.

Star Trek isn't "real", Doctor Who isn't "real", so the actual "truth" of what we call canon can only be suggested to us. We can pick and choose, ignore parts of official canon and suppliment it how we feel most comfortable - since both franchises exist to be enjoyed not stressed over. We know that things happen offscreen in both which aren't referenced onscreen and it's hard to think otherwise. Their universes don't hit pause between episodes, nor are they as small as the bit we see. Offscreen unmentioned Enterprise/TARDIS trips do happen according to canon, and it's pretty hard to imagine we saw every moment of the Enterprise's 5 year mission. What about the Doctor? He's aged hundreds of years over the 50 years we've known him.

Therefore instead of requiring onscreen evidence that an extended universe happened, I prefer instead to accept everything as my headcanon if it doesn't conflict with anything else. To be honest this game is 1000x more likely to be contradicted on screen than that comic book since how could either show even contradict the comic book?

itpalg

tilarta wrote: »

azrael605 wrote: »

Might I recommend the OP read the TNG/Doctor Who comic book crossover "Assimilation2" (Assimilation squared)

I've never been interested much in that kind of thing, it's just fanfiction from my point of view.
Unless the main show references it, it never happened.
And besides, the authors spin it whatever way they want.
If they want the Cybermen to win, they do, if it's the Borg, then they come out winners.

Save yourself time and money buying them and do what I did, search online and find this summary:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Assimilation²_(comic_story)

wildthyme467989

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CIwwy0S4_s
Cybermen now have a Borg style adaptation process and one Cyberman has said the Borg's catchphrase "you will be assimilated." These seem more like homages to the Borg rather than envy.

wildthyme467989

azrael605 wrote: »

Your missing out, some of the best Trek stories I've ever encountered have been in the comics. Besides it wasn't about either "winning" they were co- operating.

In the same respect to Doctor Who, some of the best stories come from comic's, novels and the Big Finish Audio Drama's

tilarta

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timelords1701

Evolution Of The Cybermen ( 1963- 2013 )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWuAr8Gkcjs

artan42

leemwatson wrote: »

The Cybermen in the latest Who-verse are not the same Cybermen in the earlier Whos. There was NO retconning done as the new versions came from an alternate universe Earth, where as the Old ones were from the original universe.

No they aren't. The Cybermen from Rise of the Cybermen and Age of Steel, Army of Ghosts and Doomsday, and The Next Doctor are alternate universe ones made by Cybus industries. From The Pandorica Opens onwards they are the original Mondas/Telos Cybermen again.

wildthyme467989 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CIwwy0S4_s
Cybermen now have a Borg style adaptation process and one Cyberman has said the Borg's catchphrase "you will be assimilated." These seem more like homages to the Borg rather than envy.

It's the same homage that leads to the Borg's catchphrase 'resistance is useless/futile' coming from the Cybermen in the first place.

Also, why would anybody bring the Daleks up in a Cybermen vs. Borg debate? The Daleks are leagues ahead of any single race in Doctor Who or Star Trek (excluding omnipotents like the Q). They're not even slightly comparable. Daleks can move planets on a whim, manipulate time so well they can win a war against the Lords of Time, and build a station capable of the compleat and utter destruction of all reality. That's so far removed to what the Borg could even dream of that it's about as useful as bringing up Q in a debate on Kazon vs. Packleds.​​

burstorion

-Gets mental images of the borg and the cybermen in each of their dimensions, borg queen in a 'borg lives matter t-shirt' lounging on a couch made of ex borg, eating nannite infused popcorn whilst watching the cybermen episodes of Who whilst the cybercontroller in the Who dimension is sitting on his cyberthrone, drinking a protein slurry through a bendy straw whilst watching the borg episodes of Trek, both taking notes on the other-

Am I the only one that would pay to see the borg Queen and the cybercontroller having a slagging match like the classic Dalek/Cyberman one?​​

smokebailey

I prefer the classic Cybermen, BEFORE they got those stupid catch phrases. Even "We will survive" was only used for Tomb of the Cybermen.

discojer

The Borg actually seem ot have originated in the music video for Dio's Last in Line
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEV4Tov1GBM
(Video also features Meeno Peluce of the short lived sci-fi show Voyagers)

tilarta

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artan42

Oh for goodness sake. You've clearly not seen enough of pre-2005 Doctor Who nor any of post-2005 Doctor Who to be able to make sound judgment on this. You also clearly don't know what you're on about when you talk of adaption in a race being 'copied from the Borg' as though that concept is singular to them.

8472 has no equal in DW or ST?!?!!??!?! VOY knocked up a bio-weapon to defeat them in an episode. And if you think 8472 are anywhere close to the Daleks, you have never even owned a TV and have only heard of the two programmes through hearsay.

I'm not sure what part of a race capable of the compleat and utter destruction of REALITY ITSELF means or why you think it's equatable to a race that can destroy a few planets.

And it's still not too late to edit the title of your post to use the correct name of the programme you've never seen. Also, you may want to make it a bit less vague. 'New' could mean only the last series for instance. You also still won't give a reason why you're artificially drawing a line between the changes of the Cybermen between Silver Nemesis and The Pandorica Opens and not, say, between the Tenth Planet and Earthshock.​​

leemwatson

pobatti#7150 wrote: »

leemwatson wrote: »

The Cybermen in the latest Who-verse are not the same Cybermen in the earlier Whos. There was NO retconning done as the new versions came from an alternate universe Earth, where as the Old ones were from the original universe.

That changed a while back.

Only the early New Who Cybermen were from Pete's World. Newer ones from Matt Smith's era on are Mondasian... but you wouldn't know that from looks alone.

Apologies for my error of omission, but I was referring to the episode specified by the OP.

thay8472

Yeah ... my money is on the Daleks.

tilarta

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thay8472

Species 8472 never would have found the daleks in that scenario. It was a hidden in some nebula inside a temporal thingy majig that was 1 second out of phase with the rest of the universe.

As for your 'key component' Assuming the Paradigm Daleks have all the knowledge from the predecessors, there is nothing stopping them from building a new one.

As for the Prophets ... we've already got some ways to kill them now.

( 'The Pah'Wrath beam of death that hit the runabout instead of the wormhole' episode )
( The rock that became three rocks then leaked something that would have done nasty to the wormhole' episode )
( Playing Justin Biebers music whil travelling through the wormhole )
( 'Finding a magic Pah'Wrath rock then closing the wormhole for w/e the reason was' episode)

And the Q ... again I don't recall the episode, but the Q who wanted to commit suicide told Tuvok.

"You mustn't think of us as omnipotent, no matter what The Continuum would like you to believe. You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to lifeforms without your technological expertise! It's no different with us; we may appear omnipotent to you, but believe me, we're not!"

I bet the Daleks would be the first to find out.

artan42

tilarta wrote: »

The Cybermites are also an emulation of the Borg nanoprobes.

They're a smaller version of the Cybermats.

tilarta wrote: »

In Nightmare in Silver, they do a Borg style pre assimilation of 4 individuals, plus two soldiers.

Yes they do. But we've already established Nightmare is the exception, not the rule.

tilarta wrote: »

I looked up the specifics of Dalek saucers, it seems they are an equal match for 8472 vessels, given that they can destroy planets just as easily.

In a different way, but yes.

tilarta wrote: »

The real question is whether Dalek Saucers are capable of fighting an enemy that can send an armada of ships at you, replace any losses virtually instaneously via their fluidic portals,

Yes. Daleks are able to field millions of saucers at once. The minor fleet in Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways contains about 500 Saucers and that's the sources one Emperor was able to scavenge from one planet. The entire Parliament was also built is a short span of time.

tilarta wrote: »

if Dalek weapons can penetrate their bioadaptive shields or target a ship whose greatest strength is speed. relatively small size and manoeuvrability.

Bio-ships are organic, you've seen what Dalek guns do to flesh. That's not even including the Special Weapons Dalek.

tilarta wrote: »

And do so before 9 of their Bioships use their planet destroyer beam on the saucers.

Oops, that's one Saucer down, only nine hundred and ninety nine thousand nine hundred and nine more to go.

tilarta wrote: »

From what I've read, Dalek ship-to-ship weaponry is nothing special, just standard beam arrays and missile launchers, none of which have ever affected Bioships.

Unlike Star Trek (for the most part anyway) Doctor Who weapons have no fixed potency. But Dalek firepower can frag a planet and the Daleks themselves are spcaceworthy.

tilarta wrote: »

As for the Bioweapon developed by Voyager, since they gave the technology to Species 8472 as a goodwill gift, they might have developed a defense against it by now.

Meh, Daleks are stated to be some of the brightest creatures in the universe. I'm sure they will figure out something similar.

tilarta wrote: »

The ensuing six-month conflict with Species 8472 cost the lives of millions of drones, thousands of Borg vessels, and dozens of star systems.

That's not "a few planets".

I'm sure those 'dozens of star systems' contained 'a few planets'. Or did you think 8472 were destroying the star system itself?

tilarta wrote: »

The Reality Bomb while impressive, can't be used again, because the key component was destroyed. And to be honest, it sounds like Species 8472 wouldn't give them the opportunity to try.

Really? How will 8472 enter the Medusa Cascade? How will they prevent the Daleks from T-Matting planets from normal space into the Cascade?
Also, I know the Crucible was destroyed, but Davros lives, ergo another could be on the cards.

tilarta wrote: »

It sounds like the Daleks needed 26 specific planets, one moon and their flagship to make it work.
Try doing all of that when all of those have been reduced to molten space debris by Species 8472's planet destroyer beams.

All of which were taken from Mutter's Spiral. Now the Daleks are not limited to that galaxy (indeed they hail from another) those planets were the ones that were closest together to make the process easier. They weren't the only candidates in the cosmos.
Oh no! The Crucible was destroyed! If only there was someway it could be... rebuilt!

tilarta wrote: »

It seems like the Reality Bomb has to cascade throughout the temporal vortex to hit it's targets.
Fluidic space, judging from the method of access doesn't exist in the normal spacetime continuum, so how could a weapon using that as a method of wave propogation target them in the first place?
Congratulations, you missed one species, they're really angry and coming to get you........

Nope. Reality Bomb. destruction of all of reality. All parallel dimensions, all timestreams, all universes. Fluidic Space dosn't get a pass because it's not mentioned in the episode.

tilarta wrote: »

And unfortunately for the Daleks, by creating such a weapon, they've just attracted the attention of the Q and the Prophets.
It is suggested that both these species don't like someone messing with the fabric of reality, so getting two all-powerful reality warping species to notice you at the same time can't be good.

Who promptly vanish from the story like Frenric, the Great Intelligence, the Guardians of Time, the Beast, The Gods of Ragnarok and every other Q level being that has just vanished from the story in order for the Time War to work in the first place.

tilarta wrote: »

The Q could just snap their fingers and suddenly you've got a tank of frogs singing Ragtime Chorus songs instead of your superweapon.

And then the Black Guardian snaps his fingers and Q turns into Beverly and spends his remaining time getting as close to Picard as he wants.

tilarta wrote: »

It's uncertain how the Prophets could affect things, as their powers are mostly confined to the wormhole, but they are not without the means to affect things in our universe.
It seems their primary power is to relocate objects through time and space and while it is unknown if they can move planets, individuals are easy to extract from the timestream.
If that is the power they used, the crew of the ship about to push the button would find themselves just gone to whereever they were sent, they could be hurled into the big bang or beyond the end of the universe. Or simply dropped into the nearest star.

That would create a paradox and the Prophets have now got a load of Repers on their backs. Also, see above.

tilarta wrote: »

Classic Who ends with the 7th Doctor.
The 8th Doctor was received so poorly by the fanbase he is generally ignored.
Nu Who begins with the 9th Doctor.
I make this distinction due to the fact they have different production crews working on each stage of the franchise.

They also have different production crews between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors, the 5th and 6th, the 7th and 8. Any distinction is arbitrary and pointless. Also, 8 counts as 'Classic Who' whether it's liked by fanbois or not.

tilarta wrote: »

So you know which episodes I have seen:

• Nightmare in Silver
• The Pandorica Opens
• The Big Bang
• Army of Ghosts
• Doomsday

That's not enough of a cross section.

tilarta wrote: »

I'm still not sold on the merits of the series outright,

And I'm not sold on season 23 but it dosn't stop me from watching it.

tilarta wrote: »

if you can't engage my interest with just one episode, then you've failed to get me invested, if five episodes didn't do it, I'd say Nu Who won't ever get me as a fan.

A good thing An Unearthly Child was so good then...

Do you know the first highly rated and popular First Doctor episode? It was The Dalek Invasion of Earth. That's episode 2 of season 2. That's far more than 5 episodes.

tilarta wrote: »

Also, a secondary concern is I probably wouldn't enjoy seeing them rewrite Who canon from the ground up, I've always hated retcons and watching several seasons of it might be a frustrating experience.

You've never seen Doctor Who in your life. It's clear I'm not even being sarcastic now. You seriously have not seen a single episode ever.
Either that or you have no idea what the the words 'canon' and 'retcons' mean.

I was going to post a few examples of such retcons like the massively dwindling power of the Time Lords from the gods of The War Games to the pompous bureaucrats of The Deadly Assassin, a change that far outstrips the power up of the Cybermen from The Tenth Planet to Nightmare in Silver, but it would completely fly over your head.
You've already convinced yourself that any Doctor Who episodes shown prior to 1989 are holy and immaculate with a consistent vision and style that transcends the dozens of different producers, directors, and writers in its 30 years, and that anything post 2005 (and probably 1996) is nothing more than an attempt to destroy that coherent continuity.​​

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wildthyme467989

There's not much point having discussions on Canon in Doctor Who, since one of the premises of the shows latest years is that "time can be rewritten," as a result, canon is and will forever be changing, it certainly makes for a much more interesting show, it's great to shake things up every now and then, it keeps things fresh. I can't stand all these sticklers for things to be canonical, like in Star Trek, it's no wonder no Star Trek series lasts beyond 7 years with their insistence on keeping to the Canon