Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
Or you know, none at all. With all Borg like concepts already existing in the Cybermen or else part of any sci-fi robot race and not exclusive to the Borg or Cybermen.
Loosely speaking, yes they did, but I wouldn't've said to the same extend as the most recent iterations, and I feel they became more Borg-like, in the work Neil Gaiman wrote. It's not the sharing of concepts which I object to, but his claim to have never heard of the Borg.
If you know some episodes where they actually do have a realistic Cyberman/Dalek battle and not a one-way annihilation, please, let me know.
Now that the Cybermen have a clear ability to adapt themselves to weapons and attacks and can upgrade themselves on the fly, I'd like to see a rematch between the two. Trouble is, we'd probably have a stalemate situation with each side adapting to the others attacks on and on and on
I'll try and clarify my point, since it might relate to NuWho and my hesitatation to become a fan.
I believe that a franchise has to acknowledge it's roots, if you don't build on the foundation established by the ones who did all the hard work getting it established, then it's like you're essentially like you're blank slating, starting over from scratch with a few common elements, just to hook the existing fanbase in.
You're essentially trading on the name, but you might not have the ability to deliver the goods, so to speak.
Acknowledge its roots? In the same way the Deadly Assassin did when it took the physical gods of The War Games and The Three Doctors and turned them into the British parliament?
That's your problem, You're treating the post 2005 seasons differently to the pre 2005 ones for no reason. Big sweeping retcons are Doctor Who, not just Doctor Who post 2005.
Every era change (not every Doctor or season, every era) does the same thing, I've given examples of this but you're still treating the pre-2005 eras as though they are a continuous whole and that the post-2005 series is an aberration, this is blatantly not the case.
That is sortof what I am getting at here, from my perspective, it's like they're trying to push NuWho to be bigger, better, bolder with more money, special effects, making an existing enemy insanely overpowered, shock horror moments they couldn't have in the original, whatever it might be, but not having the ability to write a good story.
I gave a list of what would generally be held as the best stories since 2005. Until you watch more than the five or so you already have you are incapable of forming an opinion on the writing quality. It's a simple matter of sample size.
I am still confused on the subject of the 8th Doctor, if he had fanbase appeal, why didn't his series take off?
There has to be a reason why his movie/pilot was the only one ever filmed!
Because characters shine in a bad story. It happens all over the pre-2005 show... Sorry, no it dosn't. Bad stories only happen post 2005 where special effects replace story unlike the goodly pre-2005 seasons.
And to continue on about the Borg, yes, shields, nanites, whatever, they might be common elements.
But the way they were revisualized to make the Borg what they are, that's all Trek.
And regardless if someone else adapts the idea later, it will always be known that the Borg did it first.
To pretend otherwise, well, kid, hand, cookie jar. You may get respect if you admit you reused the idea, but none if you lie about it!
The Daleks have everything the Borg have and I don't hear you claiming the Daleks have Borg envy. You've just assuming the Cybermen and Borg are more similar than the Daleks and Borg because the former are humanoid. Every robot race in Sci-Fi has shields, giving them to the Cybermen has nothing to do with the Borg even if the Borg also have them.
Based on Nightmare in Silver and Doomsday, I am yet to see any evidence that the Cybermen have personal shielding technology.
Nightmare in Silver was the one I watched most closely to see if they did.
When the Cyberman goes into the electrified lake, I don't see any glow indicating a shield is activating.
Later on, when they adapt to the Cyberman killer gun, I still don't see a shield.
And the shot that fails to kill the Cyberman does burn his armor slightly.
You assume they are like the Borg. Shields do not need to glow or look like a bubble. And indeed they sheilds of the Cybermen do not.
Based on all of this, I would speculate that the Cyberman have the ability to reconfigure the molecular structure of their external armor to make it more resistant to whatever is adversely affecting them.
Oh, would you look at that. You've just theorised that the cybermen can adapt in a different way to the Borg, thus disproving the adaption technique is based on the Borg's.
Which could be used against them if this theory is true, build a weapon that allows you to force a new configuration, like making their armor so dense, it contracts or becomes so heavy, the internal components are crushed beyond repair.
Or go the other way, make it so brittle, it shatters easily, making just tapping them with your finger a lethal blow.
Can I interest anyone in some Glass Gas?
They adapted to an Anti-Cyberman gun. A weapon that was specifically designed to exploit their weaknesses and kill them.
I am speculating though, that the reason adaptive shields wasn't given to the Cyberman is they knew it would make them too close to the Borg and also, they gave them to the Daleks instead.
Ha, no. The writers of the episode Dalek (the first time Daleks use a shields) most likely thought, 'hey, yer know what'd be cool? Daleks having energy shields!' And when the newer Cybermen appeared (Rise of the Cybermen) at no point were the thought 'lets purposely gimp our characters incase some nerds can't tell the difference between them and a race of techno vampires from that American show that was on in the 70s and is not even on the minds of our target demographic'.
But the main reason I was watching Doomsday was to see what a balanced fight was between the Daleks and the Cyberman, to see how they would fight against each other and instead, it's just a one sided match with Dalek shields negating every single shot.
It was boring to watch them just gliding from room to room being completely invulnerable.
Based on that and possibly the new Cyberman, I think it's best to just stop investigating episodes now.
I am already displeased that they amped the Daleks up so much when they weren't that powerful before.
Enough to not want to see those specific episodes ever!
If you know some episodes where they actually do have a realistic Cyberman/Dalek battle and not a one-way annihilation, please, let me know.
I too would love to see an episode where the US Army fights a small collection of hedgehogs...
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
And whatever happened to the Movellans?
In Classic Who, they were equal to the Daleks, stalemating them completely.
In the end, they won, because they invented a virus that attacked the Dalek life support system, causing the war to go in their favor.
But after that, they were never heard from again.
Surely if you'd beaten the Daleks, nothing would stop you from continuing your campaign?
It's unclear what the Movellans' motivations were, but I think it was a case of "we must rule all because it is logical we do so".
Unlike the Daleks however, they don't appear to have any resentment of organic life, they will only become hostile if you attempt to obstruct their plans.
Perhaps they think that by taking control of the galaxy, they can eliminate war and all the other bad things organic life does to each other.
The Daleks powered up and exterminated the Movellans. The Daleks did not start off as godkillers. They were once weak enough to be defeated by Humans, then by the Movellans, then by other Daleks, then by nobody in time and space (well the Doctor obviously). The Daleks built their empire up and gained more power, you know, as real empires do. Obviously that happened with the Cybermen, except in your little world where they're still blokes in wetsuits and trainers spray painted silver dancing on the moon.
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
Or you know, none at all. With all Borg like concepts already existing in the Cybermen or else part of any sci-fi robot race and not exclusive to the Borg or Cybermen.
Loosely speaking, yes they did, but I wouldn't've said to the same extend as the most recent iterations, and I feel they became more Borg-like, in the work Neil Gaiman wrote. It's not the sharing of concepts which I object to, but his claim to have never heard of the Borg.
It's still only that one episode. By Name of the Doctor and the finale of the next series they're no different to how they were in Pandorica.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
It was the Time lords that won the war, not the Daleks, need I remind you that the Dalek fleet attacking Gallifrey was destroyed in their own crossfire when The Doctors sent Gallifrey to a pocket universe to escape destruction.
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
It was the Time lords that won the war, not the Daleks, need I remind you that the Dalek fleet attacking Gallifrey was destroyed in their own crossfire when The Doctors sent Gallifrey to a pocket universe to escape destruction.
Well it was won by the Doctor not the Time Lords, but the ending was changed from the destruction of Gallifrey to the hiding of Gallifrey.
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
Survival doesn't denote victory, since both sides survived, the best outcome would be a no score draw, I only say the Time Lords won because the Time Lord General in Hell Bent described the Doctor to Rassilon as "the man who won the Time War"
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
Survival doesn't denote victory, since both sides survived, the best outcome would be a no score draw, I only say the Time Lords won because the Time Lord General in Hell Bent described the Doctor to Rassilon as "the man who won the Time War"
The Daleks had completely pushed the Time Lords back to one world and completely surrounded it. They had destroyed Arcadia already and they were moving onto the Capitol.
After the war the Daleks had a fully functional galaxy spanning Empire ('Asylum') in years and had started so many wars as to become notorious again ('Into the Dalek'). The Daleks survived and rebuilt to their old 'Destiny' or 'Day' level of power whereas the Time Lords were stuck near powerless at the end of time.
Yes technically the Doctor 'won' the Time War as he did end it and the General was witness to the Doctor's retcon but the Daleks are in massively better shape by the end and after and were one city away from final victory before The Moment was used.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
After the war the Daleks had a fully functional galaxy spanning Empire ('Asylum') in years and had started so many wars as to become notorious again ('Into the Dalek'). The Daleks survived and rebuilt to their old 'Destiny' or 'Day' level of power whereas the Time Lords were stuck near powerless at the end of time.
Yes technically the Doctor 'won' the Time War as he did end it and the General was witness to the Doctor's retcon but the Daleks are in massively better shape by the end and after and were one city away from final victory before The Moment was used.
If it means anything, the script for Into the Dalek (according to Tardis Wiki) states that it's set in the 31st Century, so it's set well after the 3 Dalek Wars with the Earth Empire as mentioned on the wiki, so you may well be right.
I am speculating though, that the reason adaptive shields wasn't given to the Cyberman is they knew it would make them too close to the Borg and also, they gave them to the Daleks instead.
Ha, no. The writers of the episode Dalek (the first time Daleks use a shields) most likely thought, 'hey, yer know what'd be cool? Daleks having energy shields!' And when the newer Cybermen appeared (Rise of the Cybermen) at no point were the thought 'lets purposely gimp our characters incase some nerds can't tell the difference between them and a race of techno vampires from that American show that was on in the 70s and is not even on the minds of our target demographic'.
In point of fact, Russell T. Davies (IIRC; I know it was one of the NuWho higher-ups saying this on a featurette) said of "Dalek" that they added the shields, as well as the levitation ability, in response to his girlfriend telling him that your bog-standard Dalek from the old series wasn't actually very threatening. An enemy that can be overcome by going up a flight of stairs and machine-gunning it from above the angle to which it can elevate its Extermination Cannon isn't really much of an enemy.
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
It was the Time lords that won the war, not the Daleks, need I remind you that the Dalek fleet attacking Gallifrey was destroyed in their own crossfire when The Doctors sent Gallifrey to a pocket universe to escape destruction.
Well it was won by the Doctor not the Time Lords, but the ending was changed from the destruction of Gallifrey to the hiding of Gallifrey.
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
I'm calling this one Pyrrhic Gallifreyan tactical victory, Dalek strategic victory. The Daleks took some serious damage but long-term, they won.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I am speculating though, that the reason adaptive shields wasn't given to the Cyberman is they knew it would make them too close to the Borg and also, they gave them to the Daleks instead.
Ha, no. The writers of the episode Dalek (the first time Daleks use a shields) most likely thought, 'hey, yer know what'd be cool? Daleks having energy shields!' And when the newer Cybermen appeared (Rise of the Cybermen) at no point were the thought 'lets purposely gimp our characters incase some nerds can't tell the difference between them and a race of techno vampires from that American show that was on in the 70s and is not even on the minds of our target demographic'.
In point of fact, Russell T. Davies (IIRC; I know it was one of the NuWho higher-ups saying this on a featurette) said of "Dalek" that they added the shields, as well as the levitation ability, in response to his girlfriend telling him that your bog-standard Dalek from the old series wasn't actually very threatening. An enemy that can be overcome by going up a flight of stairs and machine-gunning it from above the angle to which it can elevate its Extermination Cannon isn't really much of an enemy.
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
It was the Time lords that won the war, not the Daleks, need I remind you that the Dalek fleet attacking Gallifrey was destroyed in their own crossfire when The Doctors sent Gallifrey to a pocket universe to escape destruction.
Well it was won by the Doctor not the Time Lords, but the ending was changed from the destruction of Gallifrey to the hiding of Gallifrey.
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
I'm calling this one Pyrrhic Gallifreyan tactical victory, Dalek strategic victory. The Daleks took some serious damage but long-term, they won.
Actually, Daleks flying goes back to the Sylvester McCoy story "Remembrance of the Daleks". The Doctor runs up the stairs to get away from a Dalek and it starts flying up after him.
Note: my teenage self upon seeing this, pointed at the screen and yelled "CHEATER!"
I am speculating though, that the reason adaptive shields wasn't given to the Cyberman is they knew it would make them too close to the Borg and also, they gave them to the Daleks instead.
Ha, no. The writers of the episode Dalek (the first time Daleks use a shields) most likely thought, 'hey, yer know what'd be cool? Daleks having energy shields!' And when the newer Cybermen appeared (Rise of the Cybermen) at no point were the thought 'lets purposely gimp our characters incase some nerds can't tell the difference between them and a race of techno vampires from that American show that was on in the 70s and is not even on the minds of our target demographic'.
In point of fact, Russell T. Davies (IIRC; I know it was one of the NuWho higher-ups saying this on a featurette) said of "Dalek" that they added the shields, as well as the levitation ability, in response to his girlfriend telling him that your bog-standard Dalek from the old series wasn't actually very threatening. An enemy that can be overcome by going up a flight of stairs and machine-gunning it from above the angle to which it can elevate its Extermination Cannon isn't really much of an enemy.
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
It was the Time lords that won the war, not the Daleks, need I remind you that the Dalek fleet attacking Gallifrey was destroyed in their own crossfire when The Doctors sent Gallifrey to a pocket universe to escape destruction.
Well it was won by the Doctor not the Time Lords, but the ending was changed from the destruction of Gallifrey to the hiding of Gallifrey.
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
I'm calling this one Pyrrhic Gallifreyan tactical victory, Dalek strategic victory. The Daleks took some serious damage but long-term, they won.
Actually, Daleks flying goes back to the Sylvester McCoy story "Remembrance of the Daleks". The Doctor runs up the stairs to get away from a Dalek and it starts flying up after him.
Note: my teenage self upon seeing this, pointed at the screen and yelled "CHEATER!"
It goes back further than that. We see a Dalek flying in Revelation of the Daleks three years earlier. With next to no extra budget they used a camera trick to achieve it, but as a result few people actually notice it unless pointed out to them (it is subtle), there was a more extravagant scene planned involving a dummy Dalek being launched via catapult which was abandoned due to cost.
On another note, numerous episodes show Daleks reaching places only accessible via stairs (as far back as 1965). In fact nobody ever uses the stairs trick successfully, so we don't know if they are unable to fly (with a few obvious exceptions, like their debut where it is made explicit for other reasons). There's a comment in Destiny of the Daleks about it, but the gap was so small, the Dalek couldn't fit through it even if it could fly.
They could fly way back in 'The Chase' as it's the only way they could have moved around the Mary Celeste. However, since Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways it's something they do all the time. The opening two parter of the last series has classic style ones zipping around in the air for no reason what so ever other than because the new ones do it too.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
edited October 2016
Pretty sure many sci-fi franchises have their own version of the Borg in one form or another. StarCraft have the Zerg, which are capable of infesting humans and turning them into Zerg, Dr. Who has the Cybermen... hell... even WarCraft (Which is actually Fantasy and not Sci-Fi) has the Undead Scourge, which in a way is the oldest form of assimilation: raising an army of the Dead.
The idea of being turned into something else and used against others is not a new concept that started with the Borg. Its been around for a long time, probably started with stories of a Zombie Apocalypse and evolved from there.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Pretty sure many sci-fi franchises have their own version of the Borg in one form or another. StarCraft have the Zerg, which are capable of infesting humans and turning them into Zerg, Dr. Who has the Cybermen... hell... even WarCraft (Which is actually Fantasy and not Sci-Fi) has the Undead Scourge, which in a way is the oldest form of assimilation: raising an army of the Dead.
The idea of being turned into something else and used against others is not a new concept that started with the Borg. Its been around for a long time, probably started with stories of a Zombie Apocalypse and evolved from there.
I think you mean that Star Trek has it's own version of the Cybermen, i.e. the Borg.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
I was using the Borg as the example in this explanation, as everyone here knows the Borg the best compared to the other examples given. But the point still stands. Borg-like forces have existed for a lot longer than the Borg have.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
Pretty sure many sci-fi franchises have their own version of the Borg in one form or another. StarCraft have the Zerg, which are capable of infesting humans and turning them into Zerg, Dr. Who has the Cybermen... hell... even WarCraft (Which is actually Fantasy and not Sci-Fi) has the Undead Scourge, which in a way is the oldest form of assimilation: raising an army of the Dead.
The idea of being turned into something else and used against others is not a new concept that started with the Borg. Its been around for a long time, probably started with stories of a Zombie Apocalypse and evolved from there.
I'm sure you can go even further back than that, to stories of possession or being corrupted by evil forces.
It is curious to note how different the ideas behind the Cybermen and the Borg are, yet they seemed to reach a similar conclusion all the same.
It achieves nothing to keep insisting that NuWho is infinitely better then ClassicWho or anything else in sci-fi.
All it does is give more reasons to avoid NuWho.
Can catch more bees with honey then vinegar.
Post edited by tilarta on
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Also, I gather it only works on organisms that have DNA and/or corporeal existence
Where did you gather this, the reality bomb works by cancelling out the electrical field that holds atoms together, even if non-corporeal life has no atomic structure, the universe around it does
It achieves nothing to keep insisting that NuWho is infinitely better then ClassicWho or anything else in sci-fi.
All it does is give more reasons to avoid NuWho.
Can catch more bees with honey then vinegar.
If you weren't directing this at me then no harm no foul, but if you were just be aware that I don't think I ever suggested this, or will suggest it. (OK, I may rave a lot about the Big Finish audio's, but they are the best of non-TV Who out there, classic or New series)
Doctor Who is one of the best Sci-Fi Tv Shows IMO, but there are better out there, but not by much.
Some of the current crop of sci-fi on Netflix for example I've been hearing people rave about that sound intriguing.
But as with the Movellans, I assume it couldn't remain at stalemate for long, that eventually one side would come up with something to change the situation and come out ahead.
Which obviously happened as the Daleks normalised their time travel capabilities and got themselves into a situation where they were the dominant military power in reality.
Even if the Dalek Reality Bomb could be replicated, it would achieve nothing whatsover, as it needed to use the temporal rift in the Medusa Cascade to work. Which no longer exists.
It's the only rift of its kind? Really? Even if it were, the Daleks can make a new one. The Time Lord's engineered space on a whim, hardly a mean feat for the Daleks to replicate.
Also, I gather it only works on organisms that have DNA and/or corporeal existence.
What if you were dealing with a species that had neither?
Prophets and the Chronovores are the most specific examples and also, given that they control time, you are playing in an arena where they make the rules.
And the Chronovores definitely would not appreciate you messing around in their domain, they have never tolerated someone changing it significantly for their own purposes.
Since they can reshape time as they choose, anyone attempting to meddle with it would attract their wrath.
Keep in mind Chronovores view mastery of time travel as someone playing with a toy to amuse them.
THE DESTRUCTION OF REALITY ITSELF! In the all caps of Davros himself. Not, All of reality itself except for creatures not made of DNA.
It achieves nothing to keep insisting that NuWho is infinitely better then ClassicWho or anything else in sci-fi.
All it does is give more reasons to avoid NuWho.
Can catch more bees with honey then vinegar.
I've gone for a stroll back through the entire thread and cannot find a single person making this claim.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Now we need flying Borg and the cycle will be complete.
Did we ever find out why the Xindi-Avians died out?
Yes. When their HW was evacuated very few of them managed to get off-world because they had no ships of their own and had to borrow them for the others.
This thread has been derailed by opinions being stated that the Daleks are superior to all Trek or Who species with no basis in fact. That the Reality Bomb and Time War is constantly being brought up with the specific purpose of forcing the issue.
As originator of this thread, I would like to request therefore, that discussions on this topic is to cease, and for the conversation to go back to the topic at hand; finding comparisons between Dr Who and Star Trek to discuss them like reasonable individuals.
I feel that to do otherwise indicates an intent to provoke conflict between the Trek and Who fanbases.
If anyone wishes to continue their conversations amongst themselves privately, please do so, but I don't wish to discuss that topic further and would really just like to bring my thread back on topic, before this situation gets any further out of hand.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
This thread has been derailed by opinions being stated that the Daleks are superior to all Trek or Who species with no basis in fact. That the Reality Bomb and Time War is constantly being brought up with the specific purpose of forcing the issue.
As originator of this thread, I would like to request therefore, that discussions on this topic is to cease, and for the conversation to go back to the topic at hand; finding comparisons between Dr Who and Star Trek to discuss them like reasonable individuals.
I feel that to do otherwise indicates an intent to provoke conflict between the Trek and Who fanbases.
If anyone wishes to continue their conversations amongst themselves privately, please do so, but I don't wish to discuss that topic further and would really just like to bring my thread back on topic, before this situation gets any further out of hand.
Frankly, I'm getting EXTREMELY tired of this from you, telling others what to do and say, I'm trying very hard to be pleasant here, but you're making it VERY difficult.
You can't have a Doctor Who discussion without discussing the Daleks or the Time War, they're a part of the show that you're discussing, whether you like it or not.
This thread has been derailed by opinions being stated that the Daleks are superior to all Trek or Who species with no basis in fact. That the Reality Bomb and Time War is constantly being brought up with the specific purpose of forcing the issue.
As originator of this thread, I would like to request therefore, that discussions on this topic is to cease, and for the conversation to go back to the topic at hand; finding comparisons between Dr Who and Star Trek to discuss them like reasonable individuals.
I feel that to do otherwise indicates an intent to provoke conflict between the Trek and Who fanbases.
If anyone wishes to continue their conversations amongst themselves privately, please do so, but I don't wish to discuss that topic further and would really just like to bring my thread back on topic, before this situation gets any further out of hand.
Frankly, I'm getting EXTREMELY tired of this from you, telling others what to do and say, I'm trying very hard to be pleasant here, but you're making it VERY difficult.
You can't have a Doctor Who discussion without discussing the Daleks or the Time War, they're a part of the show that you're discussing, whether you like it or not.
It's not the topic of conversation which is the issue. The way that 'conversation' has taken place, and the tone it has taken which the OP is objecting to (ie the comments of a particular individual who has been unnecessarily aggressive, confrontational, and unwilling to drop the matter) so they're making a polite request to bring things back on topic. Other forums at least give users the option to block people they don't want to talk to, or the ability to delete their own threads. This one does not, so it's hardly unreasonable for the thread's OP to ask for participants to get back to the titled topic
This thread has been derailed by opinions being stated that the Daleks are superior to all Trek or Who species with no basis in fact.
They can travel through time and were nearly successful in destroying everything. Only the Player Character and maybe the Sphere Builders have a kill count that matches the Daleks.
On the subject of the Sphere Builders ... they're pretty destructive and they can travel back and fourth in time and pop between alternate universes ... they might have a chance at stopping the Daleks.
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My character Tsin'xing
Now that the Cybermen have a clear ability to adapt themselves to weapons and attacks and can upgrade themselves on the fly, I'd like to see a rematch between the two. Trouble is, we'd probably have a stalemate situation with each side adapting to the others attacks on and on and on
Acknowledge its roots? In the same way the Deadly Assassin did when it took the physical gods of The War Games and The Three Doctors and turned them into the British parliament?
That's your problem, You're treating the post 2005 seasons differently to the pre 2005 ones for no reason. Big sweeping retcons are Doctor Who, not just Doctor Who post 2005.
Every era change (not every Doctor or season, every era) does the same thing, I've given examples of this but you're still treating the pre-2005 eras as though they are a continuous whole and that the post-2005 series is an aberration, this is blatantly not the case.
I gave a list of what would generally be held as the best stories since 2005. Until you watch more than the five or so you already have you are incapable of forming an opinion on the writing quality. It's a simple matter of sample size.
Because characters shine in a bad story. It happens all over the pre-2005 show... Sorry, no it dosn't. Bad stories only happen post 2005 where special effects replace story unlike the goodly pre-2005 seasons.
The Daleks have everything the Borg have and I don't hear you claiming the Daleks have Borg envy. You've just assuming the Cybermen and Borg are more similar than the Daleks and Borg because the former are humanoid. Every robot race in Sci-Fi has shields, giving them to the Cybermen has nothing to do with the Borg even if the Borg also have them.
You assume they are like the Borg. Shields do not need to glow or look like a bubble. And indeed they sheilds of the Cybermen do not.
Oh, would you look at that. You've just theorised that the cybermen can adapt in a different way to the Borg, thus disproving the adaption technique is based on the Borg's.
They adapted to an Anti-Cyberman gun. A weapon that was specifically designed to exploit their weaknesses and kill them.
Ha, no. The writers of the episode Dalek (the first time Daleks use a shields) most likely thought, 'hey, yer know what'd be cool? Daleks having energy shields!' And when the newer Cybermen appeared (Rise of the Cybermen) at no point were the thought 'lets purposely gimp our characters incase some nerds can't tell the difference between them and a race of techno vampires from that American show that was on in the 70s and is not even on the minds of our target demographic'.
I too would love to see an episode where the US Army fights a small collection of hedgehogs...
Let me clarify, the Daleks WON A TIME WAR AGAINST THE TIME LORDS! They are not even slightly comparable to the Cybermen. This is a race that beat a race of physical gods at their own game and built a reality destroying bomb.
Some cyborgs from Earth's twin do not even slightly compare.
The Daleks powered up and exterminated the Movellans. The Daleks did not start off as godkillers. They were once weak enough to be defeated by Humans, then by the Movellans, then by other Daleks, then by nobody in time and space (well the Doctor obviously). The Daleks built their empire up and gained more power, you know, as real empires do. Obviously that happened with the Cybermen, except in your little world where they're still blokes in wetsuits and trainers spray painted silver dancing on the moon.
It's still only that one episode. By Name of the Doctor and the finale of the next series they're no different to how they were in Pandorica.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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It was the Time lords that won the war, not the Daleks, need I remind you that the Dalek fleet attacking Gallifrey was destroyed in their own crossfire when The Doctors sent Gallifrey to a pocket universe to escape destruction.
Well it was won by the Doctor not the Time Lords, but the ending was changed from the destruction of Gallifrey to the hiding of Gallifrey.
However, in both ends, the Daleks survived. Excluding Davros and the Crucible (who escaped prior to the time lock), the Cult and the Genesis Ark, The Asylum, Skaro, and The Emperor all survived the war. It's unclear where the Parliament comes from, it may be from the five new Daleks from Victory or survivors from the Time War.
The Time Lords on the other hand, are impotently hiding at the very end of time and even Rassilon is so defeated, that the Doctor verbally bullies him off world.
The Daleks won the Time War.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Survival doesn't denote victory, since both sides survived, the best outcome would be a no score draw, I only say the Time Lords won because the Time Lord General in Hell Bent described the Doctor to Rassilon as "the man who won the Time War"
The Daleks had completely pushed the Time Lords back to one world and completely surrounded it. They had destroyed Arcadia already and they were moving onto the Capitol.
After the war the Daleks had a fully functional galaxy spanning Empire ('Asylum') in years and had started so many wars as to become notorious again ('Into the Dalek'). The Daleks survived and rebuilt to their old 'Destiny' or 'Day' level of power whereas the Time Lords were stuck near powerless at the end of time.
Yes technically the Doctor 'won' the Time War as he did end it and the General was witness to the Doctor's retcon but the Daleks are in massively better shape by the end and after and were one city away from final victory before The Moment was used.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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If it means anything, the script for Into the Dalek (according to Tardis Wiki) states that it's set in the 31st Century, so it's set well after the 3 Dalek Wars with the Earth Empire as mentioned on the wiki, so you may well be right.
Convergent literary evolution at its very finest.
I'm calling this one Pyrrhic Gallifreyan tactical victory, Dalek strategic victory. The Daleks took some serious damage but long-term, they won.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Note: my teenage self upon seeing this, pointed at the screen and yelled "CHEATER!"
It goes back further than that. We see a Dalek flying in Revelation of the Daleks three years earlier. With next to no extra budget they used a camera trick to achieve it, but as a result few people actually notice it unless pointed out to them (it is subtle), there was a more extravagant scene planned involving a dummy Dalek being launched via catapult which was abandoned due to cost.
On another note, numerous episodes show Daleks reaching places only accessible via stairs (as far back as 1965). In fact nobody ever uses the stairs trick successfully, so we don't know if they are unable to fly (with a few obvious exceptions, like their debut where it is made explicit for other reasons). There's a comment in Destiny of the Daleks about it, but the gap was so small, the Dalek couldn't fit through it even if it could fly.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The idea of being turned into something else and used against others is not a new concept that started with the Borg. Its been around for a long time, probably started with stories of a Zombie Apocalypse and evolved from there.
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colored text = mod mode
I think you mean that Star Trek has it's own version of the Cybermen, i.e. the Borg.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
I'm sure you can go even further back than that, to stories of possession or being corrupted by evil forces.
It is curious to note how different the ideas behind the Cybermen and the Borg are, yet they seemed to reach a similar conclusion all the same.
My character Tsin'xing
Did we ever find out why the Xindi-Avians died out?
All it does is give more reasons to avoid NuWho.
Can catch more bees with honey then vinegar.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Windows Vista
Where did you gather this, the reality bomb works by cancelling out the electrical field that holds atoms together, even if non-corporeal life has no atomic structure, the universe around it does
If you weren't directing this at me then no harm no foul, but if you were just be aware that I don't think I ever suggested this, or will suggest it. (OK, I may rave a lot about the Big Finish audio's, but they are the best of non-TV Who out there, classic or New series)
Doctor Who is one of the best Sci-Fi Tv Shows IMO, but there are better out there, but not by much.
Some of the current crop of sci-fi on Netflix for example I've been hearing people rave about that sound intriguing.
What equal terms? Again, US Army vs. small pack of squirrels.
Which obviously happened as the Daleks normalised their time travel capabilities and got themselves into a situation where they were the dominant military power in reality.
It's the only rift of its kind? Really? Even if it were, the Daleks can make a new one. The Time Lord's engineered space on a whim, hardly a mean feat for the Daleks to replicate.
THE DESTRUCTION OF REALITY ITSELF! In the all caps of Davros himself. Not, All of reality itself except for creatures not made of DNA.
I've gone for a stroll back through the entire thread and cannot find a single person making this claim.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing
As originator of this thread, I would like to request therefore, that discussions on this topic is to cease, and for the conversation to go back to the topic at hand; finding comparisons between Dr Who and Star Trek to discuss them like reasonable individuals.
I feel that to do otherwise indicates an intent to provoke conflict between the Trek and Who fanbases.
If anyone wishes to continue their conversations amongst themselves privately, please do so, but I don't wish to discuss that topic further and would really just like to bring my thread back on topic, before this situation gets any further out of hand.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Frankly, I'm getting EXTREMELY tired of this from you, telling others what to do and say, I'm trying very hard to be pleasant here, but you're making it VERY difficult.
You can't have a Doctor Who discussion without discussing the Daleks or the Time War, they're a part of the show that you're discussing, whether you like it or not.
They can travel through time and were nearly successful in destroying everything. Only the Player Character and maybe the Sphere Builders have a kill count that matches the Daleks.
On the subject of the Sphere Builders ... they're pretty destructive and they can travel back and fourth in time and pop between alternate universes ... they might have a chance at stopping the Daleks.