If your creations aren't good enough as they were, it makes you look insecure if you have to "upgrade" them to compensate.
Especially if you are just imitating an original idea and not making your own concepts.
The main problem in dealing with the Q and the Prophets is that you have an adversary that exists outside of time.
The Prophets take this to an extreme, seeing past, present, future and all the alternative possibilities as one continuum.
It's a bit hard to fight an enemy who knows what you are going to do long before you intend to do it and actively prevents you from taking even the first step on that path in the first place.
I'm sure that's a massive advantage against a race that won the Time War.
Dalek scientist: Hmm, Anti-Prophet weapon, I have the inkling of an idea. (is instantly teleported into the heart of a star).
Also, the greatest threat is they simply don't know either of these races exist.
Yes they do. As soon as the Daleks have access to a Federation computer they know.
With time and foreknowledge yes, they might be able to fight them, but an instant attack from an omnipotent species you didn't even know was coming for you leaves no room for preparation.
Emergency Temporal Shift. Problem solved.. Dalek now at random location in anywhere in all of time and space including places locked off from time travel.
Honestly, I think discussing that bomb is just hairsplitting, if a true crossover was to be sanctioned, they'd just want to explore the capabilities of Dalek vs 8472 vs Borg vs Cybermen on an equal footing, not have the Daleks deploy a bomb and kill everyone "just for the sake of being awesome".
Heck, it was probably a case of the "overpowered classic enemy" writing that is responsible for my hesitation in watching Nu Who.
I am picturing it as the Who equivalent of Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe and taking it about as seriously as that.
They would be doing a disservice to the Cybermen and Daleks, either of whom could end the entire Star Trek universe singlehandedly.
I assume the Black Guardian is not allowed to act directly, he is mostly held in check by the White Guardian.
And often outwitted by his opponent in the process.
Both Guardians have got one up on each other in the past.
There's also some dialogue in Enlightenment that suggests they have to play by certain rules and are not above them, although it's never clarified who does the enforcing.
The Black Guardian often has to work through intermediaries, like the Shadow and Wrack. Turlough was also one of these, but his contract was terminated when he threw a portion of the Enlightenment crystal at the Black Guardian.
It's spelt out in the story that they keep each other in check. And the Black Guardian doesn't have to work through the Shadow, he just does.
I assume the Who equivalents of the Q are the Eternals, they have reality warping powers, but they are limited by the fact they can't have any original thoughts/emotions, requiring a mortal to "give them ideas and feelings" via telepathy.
If an mortal linked to them gives them an idea, they can make it happen, but on their own, they have no initiative.
If an Eternal were to obtain the Enlightenment crystal however, it was said that this would give them the mental capacity they lack and possibly become an unchecked scourge on the universe, due to becoming essentially human, but not having restraint with the use of their powers or be checked by morality.
Which is most likely what the Black Guardian intended in the first place.
The Eternals are only slightly more powerful than the Time Lords. And that was before the Time War where the Time Lords became literal gods and still lost to the Daleks. By that point Q would be Rassilon's TRIBBLE, nevermind Davros.
Why do you assume The Unearthly Child was the first Doctor Who episode I have seen? I am not that old.
The first episodes I saw were from the Tom Baker era.
I think they were Robot, Planet of the Spiders, Ark in Space, then some of the Key to Time episodes.
It's hard to say for sure, they were doing random repeat screenings in no particular order.
However, I didn't start watching the show properly until Full Circle-Logopolis.
Then they started being inconsistent again, the next batch I got to see was Time and the Rani-The Greatest Show in the Galaxy.
After this, I had to start finding the Classic Who episodes via video and much later, dvd/iTunes.
I didn't assume that's when you started watching it. You picked season 27 arbitrarily so I picked season 1. Imagine if you'd arbitrarily started watching the show in the middle of Trial of a Timelord and declared the entire show was unwatchable because of it?
Please stop saying that, as I demonstrated above, it is a misconception.
Whatever gave you that idea in the first place?
Is it because I am using many web references?
This is because I haven't seen much of Nu Who, so consulting Tardis wikia is the most efficient method to gain information.
I will stop saying it when you show why season 27 onwards should be held to a different standard than pre-season 27. Why you think the retcons of Nightmare in Silver are more heinous than the ones in The Deadly Assassin.
It is irrevalent what the words "retcon" and "canon" mean, it's the context in which I am using them that is relevant here.
Before I selected my sampler episodes, I did some research on the Nu Who episodes to get an idea of how different it might be from what I know as familiar.
My first impressions was, what the heck is going on with all these new concepts?
Lots of unfamiliar stuff, not enough of the stuff I know.
According to the list you posted above, you watched the Hinchcliffe and Holmes era. Yes the Davies and Moffat era differs heavily, but no more so than the Cartmell or Turner eras did from each other. season 1-6, seasons 7-10, season 11, seasons 12-15, season 16, seasons 17-21, season 22, season 23 and 24, seasons 25 and 26, the film, series 1, series 2-4, series 5-9. All fully distinct eras. Moffat's 'fairytail era' (series 5-9) is no more alike Davies' harder Sci-Fi (series 1) than Home's gothic horror is like the UNIT stories of Three's era.
I had to look at Tardis wikia at least 4 times while rewatching Nightmare in Silver last night, just because there was so much going on I didn't understand.
The first of which was the Doctor holding up a blank piece of paper and having the soldier who inspected it immediately acknowledge him as a superior officer.
And if you'd watched Fury From the Deep you'd do the same for the little silver rod the Doctor used to unscrew a TRIBBLE. Changes happen.
And now I am wondering if the Classic Who Cybermen had a good reason for not converting females, in the two times they did this in Nu Who, it turned out to be a bad idea they ultimately were paid back for!
The first subject had such a strong sense of duty, it broke the Cyberconditioning and she obliterated a Cybermen patrol sent to kill the Doctor to ensure his victory.
The second subject used her connection to the Cyberking to rewrite the code controlling her mind, killed the Cyberleader who "doth protest too much" and took his place, enacting the plan to convert Earth in the past of her own free will.
Except they did convert females. They converted the entire planet of Mondas. You know this, we've already discussed it. Besides, the character played by the Gavin and Stacey bloke, he was able to break the Cyber conditioning and so was Toberman. That's the same amount of evidence that men are unsuitable for conversion.
If you'd look you'll see females play very little roles in older Doctor Who stories. Earthshock is the first example I can think of where there were female mooks on the good guys side where there were treated as expendables and not as creatures of special interest (excluding the Dravens of Galaxy Five obviously). The Movolians are also notable for that exception.
When you needed expendable meatsacks for Cyberconversion you were provided with male extras. When you needed somebody to make tea for the men on the 24th century starbase you picked the hyper intelligent maths prodigy who happened to be female. It's just how casting worked in the 60s and 70s.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I'm already struggling to make sense of how Classic Who connects to NuWho.
Factoring in the audio stories would just make a difficult situation harder.
Now that I am thinking about it, I wonder if another reason for my reticence for accepting "additional material" is that the new stuff they were coming up with was overwhelming the televised content because there was just so much of it.
From my perspective, it was like the Doctor was having 10 adventures or more between two televised serials.
That didn't make sense, since sometimes they went from one to the other directly, with onscreen dialogue implying it's only been two days or maybe a week since the prior serial.
i haven't chosen to watch any more NuWho episodes aside from the ones I listed priorly.
My main reason for hesitating is that based on what I have seen so far, it appears the show is drifting over into sci-fi horror rather then sci-fi adventuring.
I'm not a fan of the former, I prefer the latter.
The additional data I am extracting from Tardis.wikia only confirms it.
And now I have one more item for my list of "borrowed" Trek concepts: Mire
Sounds very similar to the Hirogen!
You seem to be Hell Bent (excuse the pun) on talking yourself out of something here, I don't see any problems with additional material, it fills in the blanks of the Doctor Who universe, and lets not forget that he is over 2000 years old, he's had plenty of adventures we haven't seen and will probably never see on TV.
I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the idea that additional content overwhelms the TV Show, sure a few stories take elements from TV episodes, but they don't require knowledge of TV episodes to enjoy them. I'll give you an example, take the Audio Drama The Butcher of Brisbane http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Butcher_of_Brisbane_(audio_story), it's a prequel to the 4th Doctor story The Talons of Weng Chiang http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Talons_of_Weng-Chiang_(TV_story) but you don't have to have watched that story to understand what's happening in the audio.
As for it being overwhelming to listen or read so much new stuff, it doesn't have to be as you can take it in at whatever speed you want to, it's all up to you, it will never go away, there will always be some way to get hold of it.
As for the TV show drifting into horror, you make a good point but there are still plenty of good adventuring episodes you've missed out on, I recommend series 6, the first part at least.
I'm already struggling to make sense of how Classic Who connects to NuWho.
Factoring in the audio stories would just make a difficult situation harder.
Now that I am thinking about it, I wonder if another reason for my reticence for accepting "additional material" is that the new stuff they were coming up with was overwhelming the televised content because there was just so much of it.
From my perspective, it was like the Doctor was having 10 adventures or more between two televised serials.
That didn't make sense, since sometimes they went from one to the other directly, with onscreen dialogue implying it's only been two days or maybe a week since the prior serial.
i haven't chosen to watch any more NuWho episodes aside from the ones I listed priorly.
My main reason for hesitating is that based on what I have seen so far, it appears the show is drifting over into sci-fi horror rather then sci-fi adventuring.
I'm not a fan of the former, I prefer the latter.
The additional data I am extracting from Tardis.wikia only confirms it.
And now I have one more item for my list of "borrowed" Trek concepts: Mire
Sounds very similar to the Hirogen!
If you want to see the best, here are my recommendations. Some are reliant on series long story arcs to fully make sense but others will suffice by the strength of their story alone. I'll reply to the other points when I'm back from work, but 6:00 is too early to be mucking around with quotes.
Series 1
Dalek, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways.
Series 2
School Reunion, The Girl in the Fireplace, Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel, The Idiot's Lantern, The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday.
Series 3 (I forgot how boring this serie was )
42, Human Nature/The Family of Blood, Blink, Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords.
Series 4
Time Crash, Planet of the Ood, Silence in the Library, Forest of the Dead, Midnight, The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, The Waters of Mars.
Series 5
Victory of the Daleks, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang.
Series 6
The Doctor's Wife, The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People, The Girl Who Waited.
Series 7
The Rings of Akhaten, Cold War, Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, The Crimson Horror, Nightmare in Silver, The Name of the Doctor/The Day of the Doctor/The Time of the Doctor.
Series 8
Into the Dalek, Mummy on the Orient Express
Series 9
Under the Lake/Before the Flood, The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion, Face the Raven/Heaven Sent/Hell Bent.
Post edited by artan42 on
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
It seems we drifted off-topic a long time ago here. Can we please go back to it?
The intent of this thread was to find out what Star Trek ideas might have been borrowed/used as inspiration for Dr Who concepts.
Or if it went the other way, like Star Trek took a Who idea and did something with it.
I accept that some crossover discussion may result from that, but I think we definitely need to exercise some restraint when discussing that, as it seems to be inciting conflict.
Likewise, episode recommendations may also be a part of that discussion.
I'm still undecided on watching more episodes, because I simply don't enjoy watching gore/shock horror moments onscreen and it's hard to know in advance if the episode I am considering has it or not.
I was contemplating watching The Girl Who Died, but I was concerned that they might include a scene showing us exactly how the Mire prepare their dietary supplements and I don't want to see that!
The description of the opening scene alone for that episode is already putting me off!
And that's before the main story even commences!
Likewise, I am avoiding Cybermen episodes for that reason, specifically the one where the Cybus Industries Cybermen first appear, because I am suspecting there is a scene in that episode that shows us precisely how their Cyberconverter chamber works, another thing I'd rather not see, even if it's done discreetly.
As regards audio dramas, feel free to cite examples, but as I am a highly visual person, I am not interested in them, for that reason. I prefer to watch, not hear.
Star Trek has definitely taken Doctor Who ideas and run with them, the Voth for example are blatant rip-offs of the Silurians, back story and all. There's also a stolen Sontaran design, but the race is so different culturally I'll let that one slide.
There may have been some tinkering with the Cybermen, but they ultimately still remain faithful to the original depictions, just with more added on.
And no, there's no gore in The Girl Who Died, there's a bit of left over guts shown in The Age of Steel post-conversion, but the process itself is limited to spinning saws followed by cutting away while characters' scream (drowned out by the supervisor dancing to The Lion Sleeps Tonight, that's all you see a middle aged man dancing which is pretty gruesome in itself).
i haven't chosen to watch any more NuWho episodes aside from the ones I listed priorly.
My main reason for hesitating is that based on what I have seen so far, it appears the show is drifting over into sci-fi horror rather then sci-fi adventuring.
I'm not a fan of the former, I prefer the latter.
The additional data I am extracting from Tardis.wikia only confirms it.
Hinchcliffe and Holmes' era (Horror of Fang Rock, Stones of Blood, the one with the Chinese stereotypes and so on) are well known as gothic horror. There's episodes filled with vampires and witches.
Moffat's era is fantasy, fairy tales, not horror.
You want hard Sci-Fi, watch 2 and 3 then stop.
It seems we drifted off-topic a long time ago here. Can we please go back to it?
The intent of this thread was to find out what Star Trek ideas might have been borrowed/used as inspiration for Dr Who concepts.
No it wasn't. The point of this thread was for you to use secondhand material to imply a species developed in the 60s copied a species developed in the 70s.
Likewise, episode recommendations may also be a part of that discussion.
I'm still undecided on watching more episodes, because I simply don't enjoy watching gore/shock horror moments onscreen and it's hard to know in advance if the episode I am considering has it or not.
Worse than what Mary Whitehouse got her knickers in a twist about? 4's era really rubbed her the wrong way around. It's the reason 5's era suffered so much in terms of atmosphere.
I was contemplating watching The Girl Who Died, but I was concerned that they might include a scene showing us exactly how the Mire prepare their dietary supplements and I don't want to see that!
The description of the opening scene alone for that episode is already putting me off!
And that's before the main story even commences!
Firstly, don't bother with it. I like it because it feels like a throwback to Douglas Adams' weird side stories in it's whimsicalness but it's a throwback, it's not really all that representative. Secondly, Doctor Who is rated PG (or sometimes 12). There's little gore in a PG TV episode.
Likewise, I am avoiding Cybermen episodes for that reason, specifically the one where the Cybus Industries Cybermen first appear, because I am suspecting there is a scene in that episode that shows us precisely how their Cyberconverter chamber works, another thing I'd rather not see, even if it's done discreetly.
It's Doctor Who, not Saw. The horror is in the implication, not the exposition. It's done with sounds and cuts and so on. The best thing to do is to just watch the episodes and not rely on written synopses.
Refer back to my list, the very first episode I recommend is 'Dalek'. There is no gore and little horror in it. Give it a try.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Unfortunately, due to a cost cutting measure, BBC recorded over most of the 60s episode tape reels and so, most of those episodes aren't available to watch.
There is still some hope though, before this happened, they did a broadcast standard duplication for an American television station to use.
So somewhere out there, they exist, they just have to be found.
Power of The Daleks is the next big one found, thanks to fans audio recordings (no VCR's back then) that serial has been recreated as a full animation for release in November in the UK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ib3IEIT0Yw
I only cite this one because it has a Star Trek reference, thanks to being set on the Human Colony of Vulcan, Star Trek beat Doctor Who by a few months with that name. I say reference, but it seems both shows chose the name Vulcan independently of each other
Unfortunately, due to a cost cutting measure, BBC recorded over most of the 60s episode tape reels and so, most of those episodes aren't available to watch.
There is still some hope though, before this happened, they did a broadcast standard duplication for an American television station to use.
So somewhere out there, they exist, they just have to be found.
Power of The Daleks is the next big one found, thanks to fans audio recordings (no VCR's back then) that serial has been recreated as a full animation for release in November in the UK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ib3IEIT0Yw
I only cite this one because it has a Star Trek reference, thanks to being set on the Human Colony of Vulcan, Star Trek beat Doctor Who by a few months with that name. I say reference, but it seems both shows chose the name Vulcan independently of each other
The audio has been around for decades, it's not a recent recovery. The animation is new however.
Vulcan is definitely independent, Trek wasn't on here for a good few years after. Planet Vulcan is actually a fairly old concept, it was part of a model of the solar system disproved by General Relativity which gives you an idea of the dates involved.
In The Age of Steel post-conversion, the process itself is limited to spinning saws followed by cutting away while characters' scream.
Perhaps some unfortunate phrasing there, I read that as you do get to watch the procedure!
Scene change to Camera Angle B might have been less misinterpreted.
But even so, that still has me a fair bit concerned, it's still getting too close to the limit of what I consider appropriate. If it makes me uncomfortable, then it's my choice not to watch those episodes.
It must be a very fine line, because most of the stuff in Classic Who didn't bother me.
And if you recommend episodes, stick to the NuWho ones.
I am familiar enough with Classic Who to know which ones to look for.
It's not so much a case of watching them for the first time as it is finding a copy I can own.
Unfortunately, due to a cost cutting measure, BBC recorded over most of the 60s episode tape reels and so, most of those episodes aren't available to watch.
There is still some hope though, before this happened, they did a broadcast standard duplication for an American television station to use.
So somewhere out there, they exist, they just have to be found.
As it was never picked up it is unlikely any more than a single serial was sent and it was probably the first one which is intact They didn't want a black and white TV show. American syndication would probably have saved those episodes but here we are 97 episodes down. Thanks... Johnson!
The Cybermites are also an emulation of the Borg nanoprobes.
In Nightmare in Silver, they do a Borg style pre assimilation of 4 individuals, plus two soldiers.
If Adaptive Shielding didn't originate with the Borg, then please cite examples of other sci-fi races who have it, I am genuinely curious to know who they are.
I looked up the specifics of Dalek saucers, it seems they are an equal match for 8472 vessels, given that they can destroy planets just as easily.
The real question is whether Dalek Saucers are capable of fighting an enemy that can send an armada of ships at you, replace any losses virtually instaneously via their fluidic portals, if Dalek weapons can penetrate their bioadaptive shields or target a ship whose greatest strength is speed. relatively small size and manoeuvrability.
And do so before 9 of their Bioships use their planet destroyer beam on the saucers.
From what I've read, Dalek ship-to-ship weaponry is nothing special, just standard beam arrays and missile launchers, none of which have ever affected Bioships.
As for the Bioweapon developed by Voyager, since they gave the technology to Species 8472 as a goodwill gift, they might have developed a defense against it by now.
The ensuing six-month conflict with Species 8472 cost the lives of millions of drones, thousands of Borg vessels, and dozens of star systems.
That's not "a few planets".
Classic Who ends with the 7th Doctor. The 8th Doctor was received so poorly by the fanbase he is generally ignored.
Nu Who begins with the 9th Doctor.
I make this distinction due to the fact they have different production crews working on each stage of the franchise.
So you know which episodes I have seen:
Nightmare in Silver
The Pandorica Opens
The Big Bang
The Next Doctor
Army of Ghosts
Doomsday
I'm still not sold on the merits of the series outright, if you can't engage my interest with just one episode, then you've failed to get me invested, if five episodes didn't do it, I'd say Nu Who won't ever get me as a fan.
Also, a secondary concern is I probably wouldn't enjoy seeing them rewrite Who canon from the ground up, I've always hated retcons and watching several seasons of it might be a frustrating experience.
That's not true. The Doctor Who movie, was intended as a pilot for, I believe, Canadian producers. It wasn't picked up by the network, so it never went further. But the 8th Doctor has been extensively explored in novels and audio dramas, and is rather popular. On a personal note, I would say that in the Night of the Doctor, Paul McGann was 'more the Doctor', than Matt Smith ever was in his entire run...
As regards Vulcan, I think there was a theory floating around at that time if there was a planet at X-Y-Z co-ordinates, it would be subject to higher then normal temperatures due to it's slightly closer proximity to the sun it orbits.
And thus it was named Vulcan, for the god of fire and the forge.
Post edited by tilarta on
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
As regards Vulcan, I think there was a theory floating around at that time if there was a planet at X-Y-Z co-ordinates, it would be subject to higher then normal temperatures due to it's slightly closer proximity to the sun it orbits.
And thus it was named Vulcan, for the god of fire and the forge.
So most likely, it was just Dr Who and Star Trek picking up this paper independently and saying, okay, let's factor this into our show somehow.
I did think of another one, in the last serial of Key to Time, this guy steals the translocator core from Romana and she's not happy about it.
When she finds him again, she grabs him near the neck and pinches hard, paralysing the hand holding the device she wants back, so she can take it without resistance.
It reminded me of the Vulcan nerve pinch, but apparently, it hurt a lot more, because he was wincing in pain and still conscious!
For the record, Gallifreyans are stronger then humans.
Yes, it is easy to say the Cybermen came first.
But that can't be used as a basis to claim the additional abilities the Borg have (nanoprobes, etc) also existed from that time, because they did not.
I am aware that the 8th Doctor movie was a pilot, but as a full series was never commissioned, it either means the fanbase or the corporation just didn't have enough faith in the project to risk the attempt, most likely both parties concurred and thus, it never happened.
But it was the one thing that loosely connected Who to Trek, meet DaphneAshbrook.
Yes, it is easy to say the Cybermen came first.
But that can't be used as a basis to claim the additional abilities the Borg have (nanoprobes, etc) also existed from that time, because they did not.
The Borg did not have them to start with either. Nanoprobes, that is. They first got them when it was decided in First Contact that the Borg were now vampires.
All the other stuff, senergy shields, laser weaponry etc. the Borg did indeed have them before the Cybermen, but so to did the Destroyer Droids of The Phantom Menace. They're pretty standard sci-fi stock.
You'd be hard pressed to find anything beyond nanoprobes that the Cybermen are likely to have 'copied' from the Borg that aren't just generic sci-fi robot stuff.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I am aware that the 8th Doctor movie was a pilot, but as a full series was never commissioned, it either means the fanbase or the corporation just didn't have enough faith in the project to risk the attempt, most likely both parties concurred and thus, it never happened.
But it was the one thing that loosely connected Who to Trek, meet DaphneAshbrook.
I doubt the fanbase had any impact on the decision at all, as this was pre-social media/TweetYourFavoriteActor connectedness, and that it was a purely network decision. The amount of novels and audio dramas that have been produced about the 8th Doctor, on the otherhand, certainly wouldn't've been commissioned if there wasn't sufficient fan-interest, because that stuff, they do to sell, and bring in cashmoney
@marcusdkane I'm uncertain on that point, mostly because of something that happened in the Who fanmagazines I was reading at the time.
The main reason I was purchasing them was they came with a short monochrome comic in the middle which expanded on the Doctor's adventures further with an original story.
They'd pick a random doctor, like it might the second one month, the fourth the next, etc.
They then started on a 7th doctor story and I didn't think much of it, assuming he was just "the Doctor of the month".
Then I wondered, why is this story continuing beyond one issue?
It ends with the 7th Doctor being written out and just to be extra unpleasant, they decide to kill one of my favorite companions just to get rid of her too. I hate it when they do that! What's wrong with letting us imagine she had a "happily ever after"?
From that point on, it was all 8th Doctor and Izzy, it was like they didn't even want to acknowledge ClassicWho anymore.
Which made me suspect that somebody in corporate had made the decision, it's all going to be 8th Doctor from now on, because we need to broaden his appeal/market awareness due to that movie failing spectacularly.
And that might have spread to the audio dramas as well.
Corporate meddling/social engineering at it's finest.
And now that we're talking about Ace, the primary thing that pushed me away from the New Adventures was when they turned her into a battle hardened adult soldier from the future.
I preferred her as the socially maladjusted 80s teenager with a passion for explosive technology.
It was like it was just some character using the name, that she wasn't even herself anymore.
In any case, it was both of those things happening simultaneously that caused me to shun Who's "expanded universe" and might have indirectly led to me not having much interest in NuWho.
I'm sorry, but for all that you've written, I don't actually understand what you mean on that point..
I actually stopped watching for a while because of Ace and the 7th Doctor, as I couldn't stand either of them...
As for the boldened point, that's not how it works... If something is unpopular, it gets dropped, not pushed harder to make folks like it If there wasn't interest for the 8th Doctor, they wouldn't produce the material. I was never a huge fan of the 6th Doctor, but I know that they still produce audio-dramas about him and Peri...
And what you're talking about with Ace, Torchwood and Miracle Day did to Jack, by making him a g.ay pastiche of himself... Miracle Day was so abysmal, the plotting and execution was like [bad]fan-fiction with a budget... :-\
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
Which made me suspect that somebody in corporate had made the decision, it's all going to be 8th Doctor from now on, because we need to broaden his appeal/market awareness due to that movie failing spectacularly.
And that might have spread to the audio dramas as well.
Corporate meddling/social engineering at it's finest.
If you want to see corporate meddling and social engineering, look at the nonsense you are spouting.
There had been executives at the BBC trying to get rid of the show for over a decade by this point. The show was a massive success, and they cancelled it because it was "inappropriate" for Saturday evening viewing with its "overly violent content". The viewers kicked up a stink and they had to bring it back 18 months later. It was quickly slipped into a death slot against the biggest show on UK TV at the time (Corrie) and the ratings plummeted. This was all sabotage, an attempt to get rid of a show that certain people up high hated, so they had to intentionally destroy its ratings to even get it put onto a "hiatus" until a new "plan" could be thought of to "restore" it. They then sold it off to the Americans hoping it would fail, and sure enough in the US it did poorly and the Americans abandoned it and it was formally cancelled for a second time. But guess what? In the UK it got nine million viewers. That's huge. It was the best ratings since the early Davison era, but the BBC simply were not interested.
Even when it came back in 2005, some of those same individuals again attempted to stop it for no better reason than they didn't like it. They have openly admitted to it and take great pleasure in bragging about how they destroyed the show.
Anyone that tells you that The Movie was a failure in the UK is just as caught up in the lies now as they were back in the mid-80s.
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
If you really want to demand Trek is more iconic then it's the Klingons. The Borg are obscure outwith Trek viewers.
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
If you really want to demand Trek is more iconic then it's the Klingons. The Borg are obscure outwith Trek viewers.
I did say 'one of'... I find Neil Gaiman's claim to have never heard of the Borg, as ludicrous as if Daft Punk were to claim to have never heard of Jean-Michel Jarre...
they decide to kill one of my favorite companions just to get rid of her too.
In the Big Finish Audio's she was sent to Gallifrey for Time Lord training and eventually became an agent of the Celestial Intervention Agency, a much better fate for her
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
Or you know, none at all. With all Borg like concepts already existing in the Cybermen or else part of any sci-fi robot race and not exclusive to the Borg or Cybermen.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
Or you know, none at all. With all Borg like concepts already existing in the Cybermen or else part of any sci-fi robot race and not exclusive to the Borg or Cybermen.
Loosely speaking, yes they did, but I wouldn't've said to the same extend as the most recent iterations, and I feel they became more Borg-like, in the work Neil Gaiman wrote. It's not the sharing of concepts which I object to, but his claim to have never heard of the Borg.
If you know some episodes where they actually do have a realistic Cyberman/Dalek battle and not a one-way annihilation, please, let me know.
Now that the Cybermen have a clear ability to adapt themselves to weapons and attacks and can upgrade themselves on the fly, I'd like to see a rematch between the two. Trouble is, we'd probably have a stalemate situation with each side adapting to the others attacks on and on and on
Comments
Pssst. it's ALL been done before.
Sounds like a challenge.
To avoid derailing this thread, let's talk about that here.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
I'm sure that's a massive advantage against a race that won the Time War.
Yes they do. As soon as the Daleks have access to a Federation computer they know.
Emergency Temporal Shift. Problem solved.. Dalek now at random location in anywhere in all of time and space including places locked off from time travel.
They would be doing a disservice to the Cybermen and Daleks, either of whom could end the entire Star Trek universe singlehandedly.
Both Guardians have got one up on each other in the past.
It's spelt out in the story that they keep each other in check. And the Black Guardian doesn't have to work through the Shadow, he just does.
The Eternals are only slightly more powerful than the Time Lords. And that was before the Time War where the Time Lords became literal gods and still lost to the Daleks. By that point Q would be Rassilon's TRIBBLE, nevermind Davros.
I didn't assume that's when you started watching it. You picked season 27 arbitrarily so I picked season 1. Imagine if you'd arbitrarily started watching the show in the middle of Trial of a Timelord and declared the entire show was unwatchable because of it?
I will stop saying it when you show why season 27 onwards should be held to a different standard than pre-season 27. Why you think the retcons of Nightmare in Silver are more heinous than the ones in The Deadly Assassin.
According to the list you posted above, you watched the Hinchcliffe and Holmes era. Yes the Davies and Moffat era differs heavily, but no more so than the Cartmell or Turner eras did from each other. season 1-6, seasons 7-10, season 11, seasons 12-15, season 16, seasons 17-21, season 22, season 23 and 24, seasons 25 and 26, the film, series 1, series 2-4, series 5-9. All fully distinct eras. Moffat's 'fairytail era' (series 5-9) is no more alike Davies' harder Sci-Fi (series 1) than Home's gothic horror is like the UNIT stories of Three's era.
There is no 'Classic' or 'Nu' Who.
Instalments. Additions to the existing continuity, not new.
And if you'd watched Fury From the Deep you'd do the same for the little silver rod the Doctor used to unscrew a TRIBBLE. Changes happen.
Except they did convert females. They converted the entire planet of Mondas. You know this, we've already discussed it. Besides, the character played by the Gavin and Stacey bloke, he was able to break the Cyber conditioning and so was Toberman. That's the same amount of evidence that men are unsuitable for conversion.
If you'd look you'll see females play very little roles in older Doctor Who stories. Earthshock is the first example I can think of where there were female mooks on the good guys side where there were treated as expendables and not as creatures of special interest (excluding the Dravens of Galaxy Five obviously). The Movolians are also notable for that exception.
When you needed expendable meatsacks for Cyberconversion you were provided with male extras. When you needed somebody to make tea for the men on the 24th century starbase you picked the hyper intelligent maths prodigy who happened to be female. It's just how casting worked in the 60s and 70s.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Spare_Parts_(audio_story)
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
You seem to be Hell Bent (excuse the pun) on talking yourself out of something here, I don't see any problems with additional material, it fills in the blanks of the Doctor Who universe, and lets not forget that he is over 2000 years old, he's had plenty of adventures we haven't seen and will probably never see on TV.
I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the idea that additional content overwhelms the TV Show, sure a few stories take elements from TV episodes, but they don't require knowledge of TV episodes to enjoy them. I'll give you an example, take the Audio Drama The Butcher of Brisbane http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Butcher_of_Brisbane_(audio_story), it's a prequel to the 4th Doctor story The Talons of Weng Chiang http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Talons_of_Weng-Chiang_(TV_story) but you don't have to have watched that story to understand what's happening in the audio.
As for it being overwhelming to listen or read so much new stuff, it doesn't have to be as you can take it in at whatever speed you want to, it's all up to you, it will never go away, there will always be some way to get hold of it.
As for the TV show drifting into horror, you make a good point but there are still plenty of good adventuring episodes you've missed out on, I recommend series 6, the first part at least.
If you want to see the best, here are my recommendations. Some are reliant on series long story arcs to fully make sense but others will suffice by the strength of their story alone. I'll reply to the other points when I'm back from work, but 6:00 is too early to be mucking around with quotes.
Series 1
Dalek, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways.
Series 2
School Reunion, The Girl in the Fireplace, Rise of the Cybermen/The Age of Steel, The Idiot's Lantern, The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday.
Series 3 (I forgot how boring this serie was
42, Human Nature/The Family of Blood, Blink, Utopia/The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords.
Series 4
Time Crash, Planet of the Ood, Silence in the Library, Forest of the Dead, Midnight, The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, The Waters of Mars.
Series 5
Victory of the Daleks, The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang.
Series 6
The Doctor's Wife, The Rebel Flesh/The Almost People, The Girl Who Waited.
Series 7
The Rings of Akhaten, Cold War, Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, The Crimson Horror, Nightmare in Silver, The Name of the Doctor/The Day of the Doctor/The Time of the Doctor.
Series 8
Into the Dalek, Mummy on the Orient Express
Series 9
Under the Lake/Before the Flood, The Zygon Invasion/The Zygon Inversion, Face the Raven/Heaven Sent/Hell Bent.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Series 5 ... Add 'Victory of the Daleks'
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Star Trek has definitely taken Doctor Who ideas and run with them, the Voth for example are blatant rip-offs of the Silurians, back story and all. There's also a stolen Sontaran design, but the race is so different culturally I'll let that one slide.
There may have been some tinkering with the Cybermen, but they ultimately still remain faithful to the original depictions, just with more added on.
And no, there's no gore in The Girl Who Died, there's a bit of left over guts shown in The Age of Steel post-conversion, but the process itself is limited to spinning saws followed by cutting away while characters' scream (drowned out by the supervisor dancing to The Lion Sleeps Tonight, that's all you see a middle aged man dancing which is pretty gruesome in itself).
season 27 (series 1) follows on from the TV film which follows on from season 26 and so on.
Factoring in the audio stories would just make a difficult situation harder.
Hinchcliffe and Holmes' era (Horror of Fang Rock, Stones of Blood, the one with the Chinese stereotypes and so on) are well known as gothic horror. There's episodes filled with vampires and witches.
Moffat's era is fantasy, fairy tales, not horror.
You want hard Sci-Fi, watch 2 and 3 then stop.
They're not.
@thay8472 Yes. I also added Blink. I liked Victory except for the end. Save the robot through the power of lover
No it wasn't. The point of this thread was for you to use secondhand material to imply a species developed in the 60s copied a species developed in the 70s.
They're called the Borg.
Worse than what Mary Whitehouse got her knickers in a twist about? 4's era really rubbed her the wrong way around. It's the reason 5's era suffered so much in terms of atmosphere.
Firstly, don't bother with it. I like it because it feels like a throwback to Douglas Adams' weird side stories in it's whimsicalness but it's a throwback, it's not really all that representative. Secondly, Doctor Who is rated PG (or sometimes 12). There's little gore in a PG TV episode.
It's Doctor Who, not Saw. The horror is in the implication, not the exposition. It's done with sounds and cuts and so on. The best thing to do is to just watch the episodes and not rely on written synopses.
Refer back to my list, the very first episode I recommend is 'Dalek'. There is no gore and little horror in it. Give it a try.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Power of The Daleks is the next big one found, thanks to fans audio recordings (no VCR's back then) that serial has been recreated as a full animation for release in November in the UK
I only cite this one because it has a Star Trek reference, thanks to being set on the Human Colony of Vulcan, Star Trek beat Doctor Who by a few months with that name. I say reference, but it seems both shows chose the name Vulcan independently of each other
The audio has been around for decades, it's not a recent recovery. The animation is new however.
Vulcan is definitely independent, Trek wasn't on here for a good few years after. Planet Vulcan is actually a fairly old concept, it was part of a model of the solar system disproved by General Relativity which gives you an idea of the dates involved.
As it was never picked up it is unlikely any more than a single serial was sent and it was probably the first one which is intact They didn't want a black and white TV show. American syndication would probably have saved those episodes but here we are 97 episodes down. Thanks... Johnson!
And thus it was named Vulcan, for the god of fire and the forge.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Another thing that connects Who to Trek, Chase Masterson (yes, OK, it's an audio connection) http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Chase_Masterson
The Borg did not have them to start with either. Nanoprobes, that is. They first got them when it was decided in First Contact that the Borg were now vampires.
All the other stuff, senergy shields, laser weaponry etc. the Borg did indeed have them before the Cybermen, but so to did the Destroyer Droids of The Phantom Menace. They're pretty standard sci-fi stock.
You'd be hard pressed to find anything beyond nanoprobes that the Cybermen are likely to have 'copied' from the Borg that aren't just generic sci-fi robot stuff.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
I actually stopped watching for a while because of Ace and the 7th Doctor, as I couldn't stand either of them...
As for the boldened point, that's not how it works... If something is unpopular, it gets dropped, not pushed harder to make folks like it
And what you're talking about with Ace, Torchwood and Miracle Day did to Jack, by making him a g.ay pastiche of himself... Miracle Day was so abysmal, the plotting and execution was like [bad]fan-fiction with a budget... :-\
Oh, and yes, NuWho has massive Borg Envy. Made even more grating, by Neil Gaiman's blatant lie that he had never heard of the Borg... :mad: That claim, IMHO, makes him an a55 of the biggest proportions... That a sci-fi writer hasn't heard of one of the most iconic 'villains' of the most iconic sci-fi series, is so utterly ludicrous, it's not worthy of serious consideration. I'd have respect for someone who had the cojones to say "Yeah, I based them on the Borg... I like the Borg and wanted to use elements of that in my work..." not be all "What?! Never heard of that..." It's the lie of a kid with their hand in the cookie jar, not an adult or a professional...
If you want to see corporate meddling and social engineering, look at the nonsense you are spouting.
There had been executives at the BBC trying to get rid of the show for over a decade by this point. The show was a massive success, and they cancelled it because it was "inappropriate" for Saturday evening viewing with its "overly violent content". The viewers kicked up a stink and they had to bring it back 18 months later. It was quickly slipped into a death slot against the biggest show on UK TV at the time (Corrie) and the ratings plummeted. This was all sabotage, an attempt to get rid of a show that certain people up high hated, so they had to intentionally destroy its ratings to even get it put onto a "hiatus" until a new "plan" could be thought of to "restore" it. They then sold it off to the Americans hoping it would fail, and sure enough in the US it did poorly and the Americans abandoned it and it was formally cancelled for a second time. But guess what? In the UK it got nine million viewers. That's huge. It was the best ratings since the early Davison era, but the BBC simply were not interested.
Even when it came back in 2005, some of those same individuals again attempted to stop it for no better reason than they didn't like it. They have openly admitted to it and take great pleasure in bragging about how they destroyed the show.
Anyone that tells you that The Movie was a failure in the UK is just as caught up in the lies now as they were back in the mid-80s.
If you really want to demand Trek is more iconic then it's the Klingons. The Borg are obscure outwith Trek viewers.
In the Big Finish Audio's she was sent to Gallifrey for Time Lord training and eventually became an agent of the Celestial Intervention Agency, a much better fate for her
Or you know, none at all. With all Borg like concepts already existing in the Cybermen or else part of any sci-fi robot race and not exclusive to the Borg or Cybermen.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
My character Tsin'xing
Now that the Cybermen have a clear ability to adapt themselves to weapons and attacks and can upgrade themselves on the fly, I'd like to see a rematch between the two. Trouble is, we'd probably have a stalemate situation with each side adapting to the others attacks on and on and on