I did not serve in the Navy, I was US Army, and yes, especially with your belligerent tone, I will argue.
Most of what you spoke to the large crews had to do with being able to take casualties and fix broken things, and whats a big, and most critical, cause of those sort of events? Combat!
While most of out newer equipment on warships has minimized the size. needed for day to day operations, the combat factor still plays a big factor in the crew size. Last I remembered , the Marines also assigned to the ships arent there to run a year-round Toys-for-Tots campaign either. The red, and then later, yellow shirts werent just there to keep the crew in check (as thier discipline should have done so for all but the largest misfits), it was to be able to deploy as combat ready forces, just like the Marines.
The ships have to be combat mission capable all of the time, and be able to undertake whatever mission which is in thier capability profile (and some that arent as well), and just because ships in the future have scientists and diplomats on board while ships are "patrolling" the frontier and making discoveries doesnt make the ship and crew non-military.
Do you discount that the first thing the fleet commanders have to do when deploying vessels is to assign for defensive/offensive capabilites and threats first, or do they just throw any old ship anywhere, and if an Oberth or two get chewed up by a Klingon or Rommie crossing the border now and then, no biggie?
And despite all that.... Starfleet is the military of the Federation. Precision of analogies to modern real-world militaries are vague at best and often contradictory due to how different from each other real world militaries can be. But there is one tried and true method of determining what is and isn't a military. If someone attacks the country, who will defend them?
In the case of the United Federation of Planets.... it's Starfleet.
From today's point of view yes. From a future in-universe point of view, no. That's the whole point. The society depicted in Star Trek is different, works differently and has different morals and ethics. From that point of view it is written to not be a military organisation. I'd even say there's leeway what "military organisation" and "the military" means. But the fact remains that was said and identified in canon is there for a reason and the only logical conclusion that can be draws in that all you see is true, but Starfleet is not a military organisation in that context. How does a military organisation look like? Fair question, not answerable as the UFP disbanded their militaries (most likely, they at least did so with Earth's military).
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
And despite all that.... Starfleet is the military of the Federation. Precision of analogies to modern real-world militaries are vague at best and often contradictory due to how different from each other real world militaries can be. But there is one tried and true method of determining what is and isn't a military. If someone attacks the country, who will defend them?
In the case of the United Federation of Planets.... it's Starfleet.
From today's point of view yes. From a future in-universe point of view, no. That's the whole point. The society depicted in Star Trek is different, works differently and has different morals and ethics. From that point of view it is written to not be a military organisation. I'd even say there's leeway what "military organisation" and "the military" means. But the fact remains that was said and identified in canon is there for a reason and the only logical conclusion that can be draws in that all you see is true, but Starfleet is not a military organisation in that context. How does a military organisation look like? Fair question, not answerable as the UFP disbanded their militaries (most likely, they at least did so with Earth's military).
At which point we're quibbling about semantics.... Also at what point in canon did they say the Federation has NO military?
The US Navy is a military force primarily meant to defend the US and project US military power around the world. It also includes scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
Starfleet is an exploration fleet primarily meant to explore the unknown and meet new species. It also includes defense of the Federation, projection of Federation military power, scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
That's literally the difference and why Starfleet isn't a military. It's not that it doesn't act like a military, because it does, but that doesn't make it a military in the sense of the current modern word and how they are set up.
At which point we're quibbling about semantics.... Also at what point in canon did they say the Federation has NO military?
Well, partly. The whole debate exists because one side is not satisfied with the terminology used. But it's not just semantics the way it is argued here, otherwise we'd stopped at "I see canon, but I disagree". Words aren't just words sometimes. Sometimes it's important to see why and how these words are used. A good example - unrelated to this issue - is the "The needs of the many" quote. The vast majority of people quoting it pervert it's original meaning because they simply use the words without the context. And so a statement that was meant to accompany a sacrifice BY "the few" for the greater good of "the many" out of compassion is twisted and used by "the many" to dismiss the needs of "the few". In this case there's a reason Trek is written by using the terms and words and statements they used. One can agree or disagree with it but at least should understand, that's my take on it anyway.
I extrapolate. Starfleet's task is the defense of the UFP, no other organisation with that task is ever mentioned and Beyond hints at the disbanding of Earth's military and it's absorption with the foundation of the UFP. I assume that's what happens to all member worlds as it's consequential and makes sense, but it is never explicitly stated. The moment this changes my interpretation may be falsified, of course.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
From today's point of view yes. From a future in-universe point of view, no. That's the whole point. The society depicted in Star Trek is different, works differently and has different morals and ethics. From that point of view it is written to not be a military organization. I'd even say there's leeway what "military organization" and "the military" means.
That statement is FALSE. It has been written to be a military organization many, many times and powers higher than the sainted Rodenberry approved those scripts and filmed those episodes. And your 'leeway' is built on ignoring what the word military means. Linguistic backflips don't change the critique from the outside.
Yes, it's fiction. But being fictional doesn't mean your critical thinking skills shut off (though I'm convinced several contributors to this thread simply have no critical thinking skills so the transition seems more natural to them...). I think we'd all agree Star Trek isn't an exercise in whimsy. Its not got a real strong grasp on internal consistency on the best of days, but most canonists still try to build a coherent universe out of the box of mismatched parts. And yes, it set out to explore concepts of a futuristic society. Sadly it got mired in some utterly pedestrian writing and that tone has carried through for DECADES. So much so that the folks in charge finally decided to burn it down and start over where they're doing a much better job of trying to cleave to that ideal of a society that resolves the majority of its conflicts without the use of organized, standing military force. And it does than despite our resident swarms of JJhaters.
The US Navy is a military force primarily meant to defend the US and project US military power around the world. It also includes scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
Starfleet is an exploration fleet primarily meant to explore the unknown and meet new species. It also includes defense of the Federation, projection of Federation military power, scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
That's literally the difference and why Starfleet isn't a military. It's not that it doesn't act like a military, because it does, but that doesn't make it a military in the sense of the current modern word and how they are set up.
Then why have a very specific chain of command, COURT MARSHALS(because a non-military unit would have court-marshals, just a standard trial, and there are BIG differences), and quite a few other things.
If star fleet was simply an exploration outfit, it would be a lot more like the modern day merchant marine, or NASA, not the US Navy.
Not one person who says Starfleet is a military has ever disagreed that one of their mainstay missions is exploration. But that's not all they do like some people with rosy lenses seem to think. Starfleet does MANY other things. Humanitarian assistance, showing the flag(USS Enterpise anyone?), customs and interdiction(gee few missions of that), Search and Rescue, espionage(Almost every single captain depicted in Star Trek at one point or another or on multiple occaions done missions of espionage, Kirk and Picard did multiple missions), intelligence gathering(yes there is a Starfleet intelligence that isn't part of section 31 people), list goes on.
Too many people simply scream "All they do is explore!" HORSE TRIBBLE. Sure that's one of the main missions, but it's not the entire shebang. Star Fleet does a LOT of jobs, and guess what, bunch of simple explorers simply can't do that.
Why you can sit there and scream till you're blue in the face "starfleet isn't a military service". I say horse TRIBBLE. The amount of stuff they do, sure as hell says otherwise.
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I've asked this earlier in this thread, but it was ignored. To those who insist Starfleet is not a military "because Picard and Scotty said so", what would your opinion be if those lines had not been spoken?
You are still confusing reality with fictional worlds. Were Starfleet real, then yes I would agree it is more a military organization than not. However, Starfleet isn't real and in the fictional world of Star Trek, we're told that it isn't a military organization.
...Yes, it's fiction. But being fictional doesn't mean your critical thinking skills shut off ...
Sure it does. Of course you're not supposed to treat everything in a fictional work as real life fact, or do you believe there are wizards and hobbitts and orcs or Jedi and Sith lords in real life? It's all part of the suspension of disbelief. Just like we are meant to believe transporters and warp drive and tribbles are real.
We as the viewer are told repeatedly in various episodes/films of Star Trek that Starfleet is not a military organization. That makes it fact for that fictional world, regardless what real life says.
This isn't rocket science folks.
There's suspension of disbelief, than there's just plain lunacy. Sorry this slid into plain lunacy long ago.
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There's suspension of disbelief, than there's just plain lunacy. Sorry this slid into plain lunacy long ago.
So it's easier to believe in tribbles and Vulcans and warp drive and transporters than it is for Starfleet to be non-military? LOL! Come on.
Considering the 1001 and things they do a normal military DOES, but some how I'm supposed to believe it's NOT a military, sorry Valoreah, only so much I'm willing to go out on a limb on.
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Considering the 1001 and things they do a normal military DOES, but some how I'm supposed to believe it's NOT a military, sorry Valoreah, only so much I'm willing to go out on a limb on.
So you can't accept Starfleet isn't a military, yet Time Travel, Warp Drive, Tribbles, Borg, Transporters are all totally believable?
Ok......
So, Val, you'd be happy if the new series featured Captain Harry Potter casting spells from the center seat? I mean, it's all fiction, right? There's no such thing as "plausibility" to deal with?
The US Navy is a military force primarily meant to defend the US and project US military power around the world. It also includes scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
Starfleet is an exploration fleet primarily meant to explore the unknown and meet new species. It also includes defense of the Federation, projection of Federation military power, scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
That's literally the difference and why Starfleet isn't a military. It's not that it doesn't act like a military, because it does, but that doesn't make it a military in the sense of the current modern word and how they are set up.
Then why have a very specific chain of command, COURT MARSHALS(because a non-military unit would have court-marshals, just a standard trial, and there are BIG differences), and quite a few other things.
If star fleet was simply an exploration outfit, it would be a lot more like the modern day merchant marine, or NASA, not the US Navy.
Not one person who says Starfleet is a military has ever disagreed that one of their mainstay missions is exploration. But that's not all they do like some people with rosy lenses seem to think. Starfleet does MANY other things. Humanitarian assistance, showing the flag(USS Enterpise anyone?), customs and interdiction(gee few missions of that), Search and Rescue, espionage(Almost every single captain depicted in Star Trek at one point or another or on multiple occaions done missions of espionage, Kirk and Picard did multiple missions), intelligence gathering(yes there is a Starfleet intelligence that isn't part of section 31 people), list goes on.
Too many people simply scream "All they do is explore!" HORSE ****. Sure that's one of the main missions, but it's not the entire shebang. Star Fleet does a LOT of jobs, and guess what, bunch of simple explorers simply can't do that.
Why you can sit there and scream till you're blue in the face "starfleet isn't a military service". I say horse ****. The amount of stuff they do, sure as hell says otherwise.
And none of what you said changes my point, and it shows a lack of understanding of what I wrote in the first place.
Here's a simple question. Is Starfleet's primary mission the projection of Federation military power and defense of the Federation? If the answer is yes, then it's a military by today's standard. If the answer is no, then it's not a military by today's standards. It's really that simple and not all that hard to wrap your head around.
Yes this is a semantics argument, but the entire thing is a semantics argument anyway. You disagreeing with canon on what Starfleet is and isn't is just you arguing semantics.
Considering the 1001 and things they do a normal military DOES, but some how I'm supposed to believe it's NOT a military, sorry Valoreah, only so much I'm willing to go out on a limb on.
So you can't accept Starfleet isn't a military, yet Time Travel, Warp Drive, Tribbles, Borg, Transporters are all totally believable?
Ok......
Suspension of disbelief. There are certain things I can suspend disbelief on. Because to move beyond our star system and not take centuries, I have to suspend disbelief on faster than light. Tribbles, hey there are organisms out there I can't explain. Borg, hey again that can be taken, time travel, what show hasn't done it? Transporters, hey again, plausable.
A group that is simply explorers that happen to do the multitude of things a military does, but suddenly is not a military, yeah that's a little hard to suspend disbelief on.
The US Navy is a military force primarily meant to defend the US and project US military power around the world. It also includes scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
Starfleet is an exploration fleet primarily meant to explore the unknown and meet new species. It also includes defense of the Federation, projection of Federation military power, scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
That's literally the difference and why Starfleet isn't a military. It's not that it doesn't act like a military, because it does, but that doesn't make it a military in the sense of the current modern word and how they are set up.
Then why have a very specific chain of command, COURT MARSHALS(because a non-military unit would have court-marshals, just a standard trial, and there are BIG differences), and quite a few other things.
If star fleet was simply an exploration outfit, it would be a lot more like the modern day merchant marine, or NASA, not the US Navy.
Not one person who says Starfleet is a military has ever disagreed that one of their mainstay missions is exploration. But that's not all they do like some people with rosy lenses seem to think. Starfleet does MANY other things. Humanitarian assistance, showing the flag(USS Enterpise anyone?), customs and interdiction(gee few missions of that), Search and Rescue, espionage(Almost every single captain depicted in Star Trek at one point or another or on multiple occaions done missions of espionage, Kirk and Picard did multiple missions), intelligence gathering(yes there is a Starfleet intelligence that isn't part of section 31 people), list goes on.
Too many people simply scream "All they do is explore!" HORSE ****. Sure that's one of the main missions, but it's not the entire shebang. Star Fleet does a LOT of jobs, and guess what, bunch of simple explorers simply can't do that.
Why you can sit there and scream till you're blue in the face "starfleet isn't a military service". I say horse ****. The amount of stuff they do, sure as hell says otherwise.
And none of what you said changes my point, and it shows a lack of understanding of what I wrote in the first place.
Here's a simple question. Is Starfleet's primary mission the projection of Federation military power and defense of the Federation? If the answer is yes, then it's a military by today's standard. If the answer is no, then it's not a military by today's standards. It's really that simple and not all that hard to wrap your head around.
True, and here's the thing. The first part is EXACTLY what starfleet does. It just happens to do a whole lot more too, but that's plausible as the demands for things like long range exploration and such would create the need for a military to expand it's roles.
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True, and here's the thing. The first part is EXACTLY what starfleet does. It just happens to do a whole lot more too, but that's plausible as the demands for things like long range exploration and such would create the need for a military to expand it's roles.
Ah, but Starfleet didn't start as a Military organization. Starfleet is more what would happen is NASA was given the duties of the USAF rather than USAF being given the duties of NASA without changing their overall mandates and main focus.
Which is more of less what actually happened, they just had different names. Per the new movie.
Maybe I missed it while I was rolling my eyes, in this flawlessly consistent 'canon' that never ever supports more than one take on Star Fleet, why exactly did David Marcus unambiguously call them "the Military"?
There is no disrespect towards the Military from any of us here. And I don't think that the show intends any either.
There is nothing wrong with the thought of society growing out of the need of a Military. That'd be great wouldn't it?
And there it is - the disrespect that's not disrespect because we painted it blue. No, it wouldn't "be great". Its not something we need to 'grow out of' some like bad phase. There's a very simple truism you might find helpful - Those that beat their swords into plowshares will farm for those who don't.
The idea of not killing each otheris great and NO ONE arguing that Star Fleet is a military is saying it's an offensive force. I PROMISE the vast majority of people in every military don't look forward to having to kill other people. But 'growing out of a need for a military' in a setting that is CRAWLING with hostile powers doesn't even measure up to 'fairy tale' in terms of plausibility within the setting itself. If they'd wanted Star Fleet to not be a military, maybe they shouldn't tell stories that hinge on near constant threat of war?
That blue coat of paint is yours.
It is considered canon that Starfleet is not the Military.
Picard, Kirk, Scotty and others have all mentioned being something else first, and not a military organization.
Whether it is a comment made in error doesn't matter. It was made.
No society could ever grow out of the need of a military, because there will always be those who wish you harm no matter how hard you try for peace. The only thing that could potentially unite humanity would be making first contact with an alien race, but that wouldn't diminish the need for a military in the slightest because, assuming there is intelligent life out there, somewhere there would be something all too eager to either destroy or enslave humanity, and without a military we wouldn't stand a chance.
And I disagree.
Is it likely? No. But that doesn't mean that I am any less interested in it happening.
If Starfleet isnt military
then Any starfleet personnel captured
will not longer be protected by Geneva Convention
( or what ever its spaceversion maybe)
as a klingon I will from now on referring all my fed prisoners as Enemy Combatants
and keep them boxed in my banks
I am so glad I am not longer a warcriminal in STO
just being an a-hole and a very sick pychopath
who keeps people locked up all the time
edit: I can live with that I am being an a-hole and psychopath
( hey I am very sick! get me help )
I was having trouble sleeping because I thought I was a warcriminal
I've asked this earlier in this thread, but it was ignored. To those who insist Starfleet is not a military "because Picard and Scotty said so", what would your opinion be if those lines had not been spoken?
Following in what I think is the idea of your post here.
If the show was created today instead of in the 1960's, I think that Starfleet would have been labeled as a Military with Exploration and Scientific included in its overly large umbrella of primary functions.
Being a creation of the 1960's and Roddenberry however, the shows tries to view Humankind as having achieved the ability to divorce itself from self conflict and with the Vulcans also having done the same, I think they thought they could go out into the stars and believe many more had accomplished the same thing.
It is considered canon that Starfleet is not the Military.
Canon itself is inconsistent on this point. And largely nonsensical in light of canon events.
If Picard said "the hull of the Enterprise is black" would that make it true? Because that's the level of dichotomy happening between what Star Fleet does and one baseless declaration. People are arguing that even after being hit on the head with all four tires, its still a bicycle! Papa Picard said so, and while other characters in setting have said EXACTLY the opposite, lets ignore them because we don't like it.
Maybe I missed it while I was rolling my eyes, in this flawlessly consistent 'canon' that never ever supports more than one take on Star Fleet, why exactly did David Marcus unambiguously call them "the Military"?
I think that is a fair comment.
Trying to be objective, I have no doubt that to many, that is exactly what they appear to be.
Walk, talk, look right.
But just as you don't like the thought of people looking at the Military as uniformed killers.
Could it be that Starfleet personnel feel the same way when others look at them as a Military?
David Marcus is outside of Starfleet, and his Mother has been telling him half truths and outright lies about Kirk and Starfleet.
So maybe David represents all of us as Trek fans who are trying to reconcile what we have been told versus what we have seen and the differing ideologies present within both.
Comments
I did not serve in the Navy, I was US Army, and yes, especially with your belligerent tone, I will argue.
Most of what you spoke to the large crews had to do with being able to take casualties and fix broken things, and whats a big, and most critical, cause of those sort of events? Combat!
While most of out newer equipment on warships has minimized the size. needed for day to day operations, the combat factor still plays a big factor in the crew size. Last I remembered , the Marines also assigned to the ships arent there to run a year-round Toys-for-Tots campaign either. The red, and then later, yellow shirts werent just there to keep the crew in check (as thier discipline should have done so for all but the largest misfits), it was to be able to deploy as combat ready forces, just like the Marines.
The ships have to be combat mission capable all of the time, and be able to undertake whatever mission which is in thier capability profile (and some that arent as well), and just because ships in the future have scientists and diplomats on board while ships are "patrolling" the frontier and making discoveries doesnt make the ship and crew non-military.
Do you discount that the first thing the fleet commanders have to do when deploying vessels is to assign for defensive/offensive capabilites and threats first, or do they just throw any old ship anywhere, and if an Oberth or two get chewed up by a Klingon or Rommie crossing the border now and then, no biggie?
From today's point of view yes. From a future in-universe point of view, no. That's the whole point. The society depicted in Star Trek is different, works differently and has different morals and ethics. From that point of view it is written to not be a military organisation. I'd even say there's leeway what "military organisation" and "the military" means. But the fact remains that was said and identified in canon is there for a reason and the only logical conclusion that can be draws in that all you see is true, but Starfleet is not a military organisation in that context. How does a military organisation look like? Fair question, not answerable as the UFP disbanded their militaries (most likely, they at least did so with Earth's military).
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Starfleet is an exploration fleet primarily meant to explore the unknown and meet new species. It also includes defense of the Federation, projection of Federation military power, scientific research, supply shipment, etc.
That's literally the difference and why Starfleet isn't a military. It's not that it doesn't act like a military, because it does, but that doesn't make it a military in the sense of the current modern word and how they are set up.
Well, partly. The whole debate exists because one side is not satisfied with the terminology used. But it's not just semantics the way it is argued here, otherwise we'd stopped at "I see canon, but I disagree". Words aren't just words sometimes. Sometimes it's important to see why and how these words are used. A good example - unrelated to this issue - is the "The needs of the many" quote. The vast majority of people quoting it pervert it's original meaning because they simply use the words without the context. And so a statement that was meant to accompany a sacrifice BY "the few" for the greater good of "the many" out of compassion is twisted and used by "the many" to dismiss the needs of "the few". In this case there's a reason Trek is written by using the terms and words and statements they used. One can agree or disagree with it but at least should understand, that's my take on it anyway.
I extrapolate. Starfleet's task is the defense of the UFP, no other organisation with that task is ever mentioned and Beyond hints at the disbanding of Earth's military and it's absorption with the foundation of the UFP. I assume that's what happens to all member worlds as it's consequential and makes sense, but it is never explicitly stated. The moment this changes my interpretation may be falsified, of course.
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That statement is FALSE. It has been written to be a military organization many, many times and powers higher than the sainted Rodenberry approved those scripts and filmed those episodes. And your 'leeway' is built on ignoring what the word military means. Linguistic backflips don't change the critique from the outside.
Yes, it's fiction. But being fictional doesn't mean your critical thinking skills shut off (though I'm convinced several contributors to this thread simply have no critical thinking skills so the transition seems more natural to them...). I think we'd all agree Star Trek isn't an exercise in whimsy. Its not got a real strong grasp on internal consistency on the best of days, but most canonists still try to build a coherent universe out of the box of mismatched parts. And yes, it set out to explore concepts of a futuristic society. Sadly it got mired in some utterly pedestrian writing and that tone has carried through for DECADES. So much so that the folks in charge finally decided to burn it down and start over where they're doing a much better job of trying to cleave to that ideal of a society that resolves the majority of its conflicts without the use of organized, standing military force. And it does than despite our resident swarms of JJhaters.
Then why have a very specific chain of command, COURT MARSHALS(because a non-military unit would have court-marshals, just a standard trial, and there are BIG differences), and quite a few other things.
If star fleet was simply an exploration outfit, it would be a lot more like the modern day merchant marine, or NASA, not the US Navy.
Not one person who says Starfleet is a military has ever disagreed that one of their mainstay missions is exploration. But that's not all they do like some people with rosy lenses seem to think. Starfleet does MANY other things. Humanitarian assistance, showing the flag(USS Enterpise anyone?), customs and interdiction(gee few missions of that), Search and Rescue, espionage(Almost every single captain depicted in Star Trek at one point or another or on multiple occaions done missions of espionage, Kirk and Picard did multiple missions), intelligence gathering(yes there is a Starfleet intelligence that isn't part of section 31 people), list goes on.
Too many people simply scream "All they do is explore!" HORSE TRIBBLE. Sure that's one of the main missions, but it's not the entire shebang. Star Fleet does a LOT of jobs, and guess what, bunch of simple explorers simply can't do that.
Why you can sit there and scream till you're blue in the face "starfleet isn't a military service". I say horse TRIBBLE. The amount of stuff they do, sure as hell says otherwise.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
There's suspension of disbelief, than there's just plain lunacy. Sorry this slid into plain lunacy long ago.
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http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Considering the 1001 and things they do a normal military DOES, but some how I'm supposed to believe it's NOT a military, sorry Valoreah, only so much I'm willing to go out on a limb on.
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And none of what you said changes my point, and it shows a lack of understanding of what I wrote in the first place.
Here's a simple question. Is Starfleet's primary mission the projection of Federation military power and defense of the Federation? If the answer is yes, then it's a military by today's standard. If the answer is no, then it's not a military by today's standards. It's really that simple and not all that hard to wrap your head around.
Yes this is a semantics argument, but the entire thing is a semantics argument anyway. You disagreeing with canon on what Starfleet is and isn't is just you arguing semantics.
Suspension of disbelief. There are certain things I can suspend disbelief on. Because to move beyond our star system and not take centuries, I have to suspend disbelief on faster than light. Tribbles, hey there are organisms out there I can't explain. Borg, hey again that can be taken, time travel, what show hasn't done it? Transporters, hey again, plausable.
A group that is simply explorers that happen to do the multitude of things a military does, but suddenly is not a military, yeah that's a little hard to suspend disbelief on.
True, and here's the thing. The first part is EXACTLY what starfleet does. It just happens to do a whole lot more too, but that's plausible as the demands for things like long range exploration and such would create the need for a military to expand it's roles.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Which is more of less what actually happened, they just had different names. Per the new movie.
That blue coat of paint is yours.
It is considered canon that Starfleet is not the Military.
Picard, Kirk, Scotty and others have all mentioned being something else first, and not a military organization.
Whether it is a comment made in error doesn't matter. It was made.
And I disagree.
Is it likely? No. But that doesn't mean that I am any less interested in it happening.
then Any starfleet personnel captured
will not longer be protected by Geneva Convention
( or what ever its spaceversion maybe)
as a klingon I will from now on referring all my fed prisoners as Enemy Combatants
and keep them boxed in my banks
I am so glad I am not longer a warcriminal in STO
just being an a-hole and a very sick pychopath
who keeps people locked up all the time
edit: I can live with that I am being an a-hole and psychopath
( hey I am very sick! get me help )
I was having trouble sleeping because I thought I was a warcriminal
Following in what I think is the idea of your post here.
If the show was created today instead of in the 1960's, I think that Starfleet would have been labeled as a Military with Exploration and Scientific included in its overly large umbrella of primary functions.
Being a creation of the 1960's and Roddenberry however, the shows tries to view Humankind as having achieved the ability to divorce itself from self conflict and with the Vulcans also having done the same, I think they thought they could go out into the stars and believe many more had accomplished the same thing.
Canon itself is inconsistent on this point. And largely nonsensical in light of canon events.
If Picard said "the hull of the Enterprise is black" would that make it true? Because that's the level of dichotomy happening between what Star Fleet does and one baseless declaration. People are arguing that even after being hit on the head with all four tires, its still a bicycle! Papa Picard said so, and while other characters in setting have said EXACTLY the opposite, lets ignore them because we don't like it.
I think that is a fair comment.
Trying to be objective, I have no doubt that to many, that is exactly what they appear to be.
Walk, talk, look right.
But just as you don't like the thought of people looking at the Military as uniformed killers.
Could it be that Starfleet personnel feel the same way when others look at them as a Military?
David Marcus is outside of Starfleet, and his Mother has been telling him half truths and outright lies about Kirk and Starfleet.
So maybe David represents all of us as Trek fans who are trying to reconcile what we have been told versus what we have seen and the differing ideologies present within both.