Starfleet is not much different than the British/Danish/Dutch/French EAST/West INDIAN COMPANY
For the Brits/Dutch/Danes/French they were great explorers, adventurers and champions for civilsation ( western )
For the natives they were conquers, destroyers of worlds, bringer of death, diseases and slavery.
No, that's exactly what the Federation and Starfleet do not. They don't enslave other planets. They don't take away the homes from the natives or enslave them.
If you don't have warp travle, they just observe you at best. If you have it, they will establish first contact. You can decide what you do, and if you say: "TRIBBLE you, we don't want have anything to do with you", they'll say "Good bye, call us if if you change your mind."
The worst thing the Federation does to you is stand idly by while you're dying from some natural cause that you would also die off if the Federation didn't exist. (THat's already morally questionable in my opinion). ANd they don't do it so they can later conquer your world or something. They just do it because they think interference can do too much harm to ever allow it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
When it's necessary to say the written piece lies just to make your theory count I'd say that's a pretty bad sign.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
When it's necessary to say the written piece lies just to make your theory count I'd say that's a pretty bad sign.
I never said the show lies, I said the character was wrong, there's a distinct difference. The characters depicted in the shows are human (or humanoid) and therfore inherently flawed, so you can't just take every word as canon without other canon sources to back it up.
In TWOK David very clearly refers to Starfleet as the military, so which statement is true? The one that can be supported with overwhelming evidence taken from canon, or the illogical statement that has nothing to support it?
The characters depicted in the shows are human (or humanoid) and therfore inherently flawed, so you can't just take every word as canon without other canon sources to back it up.
Yeah because it totally can't have anything to do with the writers actually wanting to affirm to the viewers that while Starfleet has Military-Like aspects it is not actually a Military Organization.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
You know that when you have to fall back on that as your defense for inconsistent writing you've entirely conceded that it's a trash piece of setting design, right?
"Yeah, it makes no sense but that's ok because-- Squirrel!"
Were not talk about particle physics and hard sci-fi vs. soft, were talking fundamental basics of societal organization. Someone MUST be the Federation's guardians. If it's not Star Fleet, then who? I'm all for it being "not Star Fleet" because all evidence is they suck at it, but that still leaves the question "then who?"
navy (ˈneɪvɪ)
n, pl -vies
1. (Military) the warships and auxiliary vessels of a nation or ruler
2. (Military) the navy (often capital) the branch of a country's armed services comprising such ships, their crews, and all their supporting services and equipment
3. (Colours) Also: navy blue dark blue
4. archaic or literaryA FLEET OF SHIPS
5. (as modifier): a navy custom.
I.e. Navy not necessarily = military.
Dictionary is power.
Ah yes, but the archaic Navies of which your definition comes from were in fact military fleets. Navy is military. A fleet is not always.
For those who question the writing of Star Trek, how do you feel about the fact that Montgomery Scott, in Beyond, actually stated - without objection from Kirk or Spock - that Starfleet wasn't a military organization? While also stating the M.A.C.O. no longer existed once the UFP was founded. Both of these details are integral plot points of the currently showing movie. And the way it's presented, this stated history predates Nero's arrival. Cementing this as history for not just the Kelvin Timeline. But both timelines.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
Yup, I know that and I'm totally ok with it... right after someone answers the question "then WHO IS RESPOINSIBLE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE FEDERATION?"
Even the highly entertaining Simon Pegg is still held to the basic standards of consistent setting design. The Federation gets jumped, constantly. It follows that Admiral Marcus was an aberration who wanted to see Star Fleet militarized. Star Fleet in the Kelvin Timeline is consistently presented as not a military force... so who IS?
Its not that hard - all we need is one person to say "Oh, yeah, that's usually the Federation Navy's job" but instead we keep getting nonsensical writing where after beating the Romulans in a protracted war, we're supposed to believe the Federation has no military arm at all.
Starfleet is whatever the writers want it to be for that episode or movie. If the story requires Starfleet to be a military like certain seasons of DS9, then it is a military.
The problem is that STO almost always seems to make Starfleet a military when Starfleet has always been more flexible in the TV series and movies.
For those who question the writing of Star Trek, how do you feel about the fact that Montgomery Scott, in Beyond, actually stated - without objection from Kirk or Spock - that Starfleet wasn't a military organization? While also stating the M.A.C.O. no longer existed once the UFP was founded. Both of these details are integral plot points of the currently showing movie. And the way it's presented, this stated history predates Nero's arrival. Cementing this as history for not just the Kelvin Timeline. But both timelines.
As I've said, just because a character claims starfleet is not a military organization does not make it true. Starfleet performs all the duties of a military, it adheres to military customs and traditions, and utilizes a military rank structure. It fits the definition of the word military in every way, so any character, no matter how prominent they are, making the preposterous claim that Starfleet is not military can be nothing except wrong.
People seem to be stuck on some notion that militaries are a bad thing, which quite frankly is insulting to anyone who is or has served in the military, and even more so to those who gave their lives to defend their country and their loved ones.
The primary purpose of a military is not to conquer or be aggressive, which is what I believe the canon statements about Starfleet not being military are trying to suggest. The primary purpose of a military is DEFENSE, and any society that does not have a military is destined to be conquered by an aggressive one that does, because diplomacy does not always work. Some people are simply too aggressive, crazy, or hateful to negotiate with.
I think that hits on something that gets missed in these topics.
Within Star Trek fandom are loyal science-fiction fans who currently - or previously - served within their nations military. Be that a volunteer or compulsory service as is the case in some countries. I've always been in favor of arguing that Starfleet isn't a military organization. I still don't think that it is. Yet, I acknowledge that I share my fandom with others who also see something of themselves (professional or otherwise) within the world productions. So when I say that I prefer Starfleet to not be a true military, it's important that my friends and fellow fans who serve(d) comprehend that I don't intentionally wish them to be excluded from the better future that Roddenberry suggested. Though, I find in some exchanges that I've had over these many years that my pov is taken extremely personally. It shouldn't be.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
Until the Federation has someone that DOES THE JOB of defending it against hostile foreign powers.
That job didn't go away no matter how hippy-groovy the setting dreams itself during the quieter episodes. That the Federation seemingly gets by on a sloppy blend of manifest destiny of humanity to dominate the entire galaxy and pure writer's fiat isn't something to be proud of.
As I've said, just because a character claims starfleet is not a military organization does not make it true.
Within that fictional world, of course it does.
Heck, by having the characters say it, the creators themselves are saying it. And if the creators say that Starfleet is not a military organization, then it's not.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." - Q
And other writers for star trek have said just as unambiguously that it IS a military organization of which we keep seeing the diplomatic and exploratory assignments.
Characters have declared Data a non-sapient toaster. Do you go by the proclamation or by the evidence?
this again.... wasnt there a thread on this not even a week ago?
Technically no. That thread was about something else and some how wandered to this topic.
At any rate... To me this is the ultimate question in this debate: If Starfleet is not a military, what does the Federation use to protect itself from the many hostile cultures they've encountered?
Never expected I'd ever see people arguing Starfleet isn't the military branch of the Federation. If they're not the military (or naval) branch, then what are they? Mall cops?
I really don't see how this is so difficult to understand. Starfleet is a MULTI-ROLE service with a quasi-military structure and a wide variety of tasks and missions under its umbrella. Yes, defense is ONE of them, but it is only one of many. To look at that and say "ah ha! See, they ARE a military!" is as narrow and distorted a view as looking at the hundreds or thousands of cargo vessels they run and say they're a shipping company. Starfleet does it ALL. And they are not any one of those many mission responsibilities, they are the sum of all of them.
However, if any one can be defined as their primary one, it is space exploration in the interest of science, a direct carry on of NASA's mission. That's in the opening monologue of every episode! How much more do they have to spell it out for you? It doesn't say "to protect and defend" or "to defeat all enemies", it says
To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before!
Anything else is secondary at best.
Just food for thought, not everything the US Military does is attack attack attack.
Nasa pilots? oh wait Military pilots.
John C Stennis Oceanographic center. Who runs that? Oh wait the US NAVY.
Tsunami in Phuket Thailand, 2005. Who did the Humanitarian Assistance Operation? Oh wait that's right 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit.
Hurrican Katrina, which 2 MEUs showed up for humanitarian assistance? Oh waith that's right 11th MEU and 2-4 MEU.
Not everything a military does is "go here, blow this up".
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
I really don't see how this is so difficult to understand. Starfleet is a MULTI-ROLE service with a quasi-military structure and a wide variety of tasks and missions under its umbrella. Yes, defense is ONE of them, but it is only one of many. To look at that and say "ah ha! See, they ARE a military!" is as narrow and distorted a view as looking at the hundreds or thousands of cargo vessels they run and say they're a shipping company. Starfleet does it ALL. And they are not any one of those many mission responsibilities, they are the sum of all of them.
However, if any one can be defined as their primary one, it is space exploration in the interest of science, a direct carry on of NASA's mission. That's in the opening monologue of every episode! How much more do they have to spell it out for you? It doesn't say "to protect and defend" or "to defeat all enemies", it says
To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before!
Anything else is secondary at best.
At various points in human history military organizations have conducted exploration. They also regularly conduct humanitarian missions. And make no mistake, Starfleet is more concerned with defense than exploration, even though exploration is one of it's biggest drivers. If an armada of Klingon Battlecruisers was flying directly towards Andoria, do you think any nearby ships conducting survey missions or something would be allowed to finish what their doing? No, Starfleet Command would order them to immediately gather with all other available ships to repel the Klingons, and the survey would be finished after the crises was over.
The exploration missions depicted in TOS and TNG were conducted during times of relative peace, once the Dominion War kicked off exploration was put on the back burner, and rightly so.
That's the ongoing mission of the Enterprise though, and although that is their prime goal, they were involved in countless military operations- things a truly explorative or research based organisation would never take part in. Patrolling the Neutral Zone for example, much like we see naval vessels now patrolling the edges of their international borders.
That doesn't mean those ships won't be used for humanitarian or diplomatic needs, but they are built capable for war and as such when a war breaks out, these ships are then counted on as a part of that nation's arsenal. It's no different at all for the Federation and Starfleet.
Just curious why this matters so much to people though? Is it just for RP? I really did think this was just a given.
Comments
If you don't have warp travle, they just observe you at best. If you have it, they will establish first contact. You can decide what you do, and if you say: "TRIBBLE you, we don't want have anything to do with you", they'll say "Good bye, call us if if you change your mind."
The worst thing the Federation does to you is stand idly by while you're dying from some natural cause that you would also die off if the Federation didn't exist. (THat's already morally questionable in my opinion). ANd they don't do it so they can later conquer your world or something. They just do it because they think interference can do too much harm to ever allow it.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I never said the show lies, I said the character was wrong, there's a distinct difference. The characters depicted in the shows are human (or humanoid) and therfore inherently flawed, so you can't just take every word as canon without other canon sources to back it up.
In TWOK David very clearly refers to Starfleet as the military, so which statement is true? The one that can be supported with overwhelming evidence taken from canon, or the illogical statement that has nothing to support it?
Yeah because it totally can't have anything to do with the writers actually wanting to affirm to the viewers that while Starfleet has Military-Like aspects it is not actually a Military Organization.
Yes, my point though was that the characters are supposed to be as realistic as possible, so it's not out of the question for a character to be wrong.
You know that when you have to fall back on that as your defense for inconsistent writing you've entirely conceded that it's a trash piece of setting design, right?
"Yeah, it makes no sense but that's ok because-- Squirrel!"
Were not talk about particle physics and hard sci-fi vs. soft, were talking fundamental basics of societal organization. Someone MUST be the Federation's guardians. If it's not Star Fleet, then who? I'm all for it being "not Star Fleet" because all evidence is they suck at it, but that still leaves the question "then who?"
Ah yes, but the archaic Navies of which your definition comes from were in fact military fleets. Navy is military. A fleet is not always.
STO Beta Test and Launch Veteran
I'm only proven 'wrong' in your imagination. But keep trying.
Even the highly entertaining Simon Pegg is still held to the basic standards of consistent setting design. The Federation gets jumped, constantly. It follows that Admiral Marcus was an aberration who wanted to see Star Fleet militarized. Star Fleet in the Kelvin Timeline is consistently presented as not a military force... so who IS?
Its not that hard - all we need is one person to say "Oh, yeah, that's usually the Federation Navy's job" but instead we keep getting nonsensical writing where after beating the Romulans in a protracted war, we're supposed to believe the Federation has no military arm at all.
The problem is that STO almost always seems to make Starfleet a military when Starfleet has always been more flexible in the TV series and movies.
As I've said, just because a character claims starfleet is not a military organization does not make it true. Starfleet performs all the duties of a military, it adheres to military customs and traditions, and utilizes a military rank structure. It fits the definition of the word military in every way, so any character, no matter how prominent they are, making the preposterous claim that Starfleet is not military can be nothing except wrong.
People seem to be stuck on some notion that militaries are a bad thing, which quite frankly is insulting to anyone who is or has served in the military, and even more so to those who gave their lives to defend their country and their loved ones.
The primary purpose of a military is not to conquer or be aggressive, which is what I believe the canon statements about Starfleet not being military are trying to suggest. The primary purpose of a military is DEFENSE, and any society that does not have a military is destined to be conquered by an aggressive one that does, because diplomacy does not always work. Some people are simply too aggressive, crazy, or hateful to negotiate with.
Within Star Trek fandom are loyal science-fiction fans who currently - or previously - served within their nations military. Be that a volunteer or compulsory service as is the case in some countries. I've always been in favor of arguing that Starfleet isn't a military organization. I still don't think that it is. Yet, I acknowledge that I share my fandom with others who also see something of themselves (professional or otherwise) within the world productions. So when I say that I prefer Starfleet to not be a true military, it's important that my friends and fellow fans who serve(d) comprehend that I don't intentionally wish them to be excluded from the better future that Roddenberry suggested. Though, I find in some exchanges that I've had over these many years that my pov is taken extremely personally. It shouldn't be.
That job didn't go away no matter how hippy-groovy the setting dreams itself during the quieter episodes. That the Federation seemingly gets by on a sloppy blend of manifest destiny of humanity to dominate the entire galaxy and pure writer's fiat isn't something to be proud of.
Heck, by having the characters say it, the creators themselves are saying it. And if the creators say that Starfleet is not a military organization, then it's not.
Characters have declared Data a non-sapient toaster. Do you go by the proclamation or by the evidence?
At any rate... To me this is the ultimate question in this debate: If Starfleet is not a military, what does the Federation use to protect itself from the many hostile cultures they've encountered?
My character Tsin'xing
Just food for thought, not everything the US Military does is attack attack attack.
Nasa pilots? oh wait Military pilots.
John C Stennis Oceanographic center. Who runs that? Oh wait the US NAVY.
Tsunami in Phuket Thailand, 2005. Who did the Humanitarian Assistance Operation? Oh wait that's right 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit.
Hurrican Katrina, which 2 MEUs showed up for humanitarian assistance? Oh waith that's right 11th MEU and 2-4 MEU.
Not everything a military does is "go here, blow this up".
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
My character Tsin'xing
At various points in human history military organizations have conducted exploration. They also regularly conduct humanitarian missions. And make no mistake, Starfleet is more concerned with defense than exploration, even though exploration is one of it's biggest drivers. If an armada of Klingon Battlecruisers was flying directly towards Andoria, do you think any nearby ships conducting survey missions or something would be allowed to finish what their doing? No, Starfleet Command would order them to immediately gather with all other available ships to repel the Klingons, and the survey would be finished after the crises was over.
The exploration missions depicted in TOS and TNG were conducted during times of relative peace, once the Dominion War kicked off exploration was put on the back burner, and rightly so.
That doesn't mean those ships won't be used for humanitarian or diplomatic needs, but they are built capable for war and as such when a war breaks out, these ships are then counted on as a part of that nation's arsenal. It's no different at all for the Federation and Starfleet.
Just curious why this matters so much to people though? Is it just for RP? I really did think this was just a given.