test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

In honor of TOS: Captain rank cap

1246711

Comments

  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    Afraid it wont fly, Kirk commanded the Enterprise when he was an Admiral although he trod on Captain Decker's toes to do it. Try explain that away as far as commanding a ship while an Admiral.

    In addition Commodore Decker also had command of a ship. Any Commodore or Rear Admiral or above can be a flag officer in Starfleet, specific Captains can give the orders to a battle group, however only a flag officer can interpret those orders and give them to the fleet.

    quite true Kirk did step on Deckers toes this was indeed when Kirk temporarily downgraded Decker's position to executive officer and his rank from captain to commander so Kirk could captain the ship for the first movie and Kirk stayed on captaining the ship all the way through "the wrath of khan" and right up until it was set to self destruct towards the end of "the search for spock" and shortly after took command of the Klingon bird of prey as its captain and retained that position right up until the tail end of "the voyage home".
    that's a fair bit of captaining for an Admiral IMO and about as far from being a "desk job" as you can get.
    in fact if star fleet had agreed for Kirk to return to genesis he would have retained his rank as Admiral right up to his disappearance in "Generations" and done a fair bit more captaining at that rank, at least through the next 2 movies "The Final Frontier" & "The Undiscovered Country" for sure.

    Let's see. ITWOK, Spock told Kirk to assume command since he was the senior officer. Up until that point, Kirk was merely riding along in the Enterprise. Search for Spock, Kirk was merely bringing the Enterprise home before he stole it and went AWOL. Voyage home, really can't be used since at that point Kirk was renegade. At the end of 4, Kirk gets DEMOTED TO CAPTAIN.

    the bottom line in this is that kirk was an admiral and spock was a captain, he could pull rank on spock and spock knew it.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]
    the bottom line in this is that kirk was an admiral and spock was a captain, he could pull rank on spock and spock knew it.

    Spock talked more along the lines of "your are better suited for this than I am".

    i do not know why there is an argument about this i already mentioned above in the quote the exact reason, irrelevant of opinion.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    If they were starting from scratch, captain should have been the top rank. But I don't think they can reduce it now, even for one faction. It would be fun to give a nod to Kirk to one day to a "finale" episode where Quinn had died and you're going to take his job at ESD whether you are keen on it or not. Then you do something stupid but awesome, they demote you to captain and you warp off into the sunset. End of story.

    If I were starting from scratch I'd have us separate ranks from levelling completely. And we'd start off as Captain right from jump as our title, since we are in command of a vessel. I'd just have taken the vanilla route where levels are levels.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    @sophlogimo

    To cap the ranks at Captian is your and other peoples opinion, it doesn't make it a better structure. As far as this new "faction", I suspect its more of a cookie cutter , al'a the Delta Recruits, than anything else, more of a different beginning that merges into the regular factions than anything else.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    Don't forget that STO is obviously not bound by Trek canon. They made captains go on away missions again and reintroduced redshirts, there can very well be commodores/admirals commanding starships and after all we do technically command a group of ships (the ships you can hop into at will). Of course you already do that presumably at lieutenant rank, but well...

    STO doesn't really have any logical progression to work with. Starships are all over the place as are people and rank.

    For the TOS faction, having commodore instead of RA would be a nice touch, if only for novelty.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The fact that the game makes compromises for the sake of gameplay does not force it to make (and even repeat) goofy mistakes when it comes to fluff, such as the level-to-rank assignments.

    well whatever cryptic does, is what cryptic does. the rest of us mere mortal are just standing around scraching our cosmic heads wondering what cryptic has in the works for any of it.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Of course. But can give our opinion and hope they care enough to think about why we care so much about such easily correctable issues.

    hopefully they can make some revisions before its thrown onto a private tribble build for select players to bug test. if its a few months away, they got some time left to make a few changes.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    The fact that the game makes compromises for the sake of gameplay does not force it to make (and even repeat) goofy mistakes when it comes to fluff, such as the level-to-rank assignments.
    Agreed.
    When if not now, do they have the chance to show they have listend to the player base and to show they are willing to make the game more in the spirit of Star Trek?

    For ex. instead of having the standard (STO) Starfleet rank structure:
    Cadet, Lt., Lt. Cmdr., Cmdr., Captain, Rear Admiral LH, Rear Admiral UH, Vice Admiral, Admiral, Fleet Admiral.

    They could just rename ranks like the following:
    Cadet, Chief, Ensign, Ensign First Class, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Lieutenant, Lt. Cmdr., Commander, Captain, Fleet Captain
    Of course this is just a example, it's hard to imagine a Chief or Ensign commanding a ship, but it's still better to have such a low ranking character command a ship for a very short time than to have thousands of Admirals permanent in game.

    So instead of using the standard STO rank structure of 10 ranks and stopping at Captain level (which would mean lots of work), why not just rename the current STO rank structure and make them more in line to what feels right (at least to some ppl.)?

    Another possibility would be to give players the choice the get demoted to Captain level if they want to. But i think that would be to off topic TBH.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • yreodredyreodred Member Posts: 3,527 Arc User
    If I were starting from scratch I'd have us separate ranks from levelling completely. And we'd start off as Captain right from jump as our title, since we are in command of a vessel. I'd just have taken the vanilla route where levels are levels.
    I'd actually prefer this option.
    "...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--" - (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie

    A tale of two Picards
    (also applies to Star Trek in general)
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    ... or just change the dialogues in the game so that they do no longer refer to the player captain's level-tied rank, but the self-chosen title that is already in the game. That would even be better, because the Admirals would have their cake just as the Captains.

    they should be called "Captain" regardless of the rank as per military tradition.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,389 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Well, to know what is a "better" structure, of course, we would have to define an objective metric by which to judge that.

    That metric could be:
    • Real-World military examples
    • Fictional Starfleet history
    • Etymological origins of the words
    • The needs of a hierarchic organization.
    • The rule of cool

    I nearly all these metrics, "Captain" wins over "Admiral" by a margin - only the last one could be debated because some people apparently feel differently than the Captain Advocates' Society. (No, that one doesn't exist yet. I just made that up. But I'll keep using it, I like it.)

    By what metric would you judge it?

    Of course, for TOS; "Captain" as endgame rank makes a lot of sense. Hell, "Captain Walker" has been with us in the game ever since Temporal Ambassador, and no one was allowed to promote him. For good reasons, which, by the way, are also named in the TWOK script quote above.

    First off, remember "Captain" Walker does not follow the same... linear progression... as we do. For all we know, 24 to 28 of his hours after he encountered us in Temporal Ambassador he started travelling back to meet us and within a week of his time he pulled us to the Temporal Accords signing...

    Now, on the main note of this thread:

    Back in TOS, where Commodores Decker and Wesley sat directly in the Center Chair of their ships - Constillation and Excalibur, respectively, the "precident" was set that Starfleet does not necessarily "banish" their flag rank officers straight to a desk.

    Thusly, using "Canon", especially in a TOS theme, flag officership does not automatically banish said flag officer to a desk job - they can command single ships like Commodore Decker vs. Doomsday Machine - or task forces & "his (her)" ship like Wesley aboard Excalibur in Ultimate Computer.

    Goodbye "Captain Advocates Society", I wanna reflect the "Canon" of mid-23rd Century Starfleet while playing in the "mid-23rd century era" and get my "star" while keeping my Center Seat.

    Said Captain Advocates Society can then begin to argue that anything set from TMP on could be a case where Starfleet began banishing their flag officers to desks or "Flag Bridges" (which, for the record, are a lot more like a "war room" where you have maps and staff so that the flag officer can see the "big picture" and get his orders off to the various captains, not the "traditional" center seat with helm / navigation / sciences / engineering status monitor / communications / etc. stations that Kirk / Picard / Sisko-Worf-Dax / Janeway 'works' from - so for all we know the Galaxy Class and or Intrepid Class and/or Starfleet has a policy of converting a holodeck to one of these and we just never saw it because 'we' never needed that set) and had began a practice that to directly command a ship and her crew one had to wear the rank of Captain - but then again said C.A.S. would have to explain how "shortly after" TMP the practice "went away" as oh-so-regulations dictate this Saavik should have balked at Kirk's Admiral Star the minute Spock publically deferred command to Kirk and he took center chair in TWOK, and Spock and Scotty would have at least "worn" demotions in the final scenes of TVH / all of FF & TUC, because you shouldn't have three "visible" Captains on ship, stemming from Decker's "visual demotion" in TMP.

    Granted, it's silly that STO turns the rankings up to 11 and puts "5 star / 5 pip" Fleet Admirals in the Center Chair - but then again, TOS was putting "1 star / whatever type of braid they wanted to use" Admiral-equivalent flag officers in Center Chairs...


    On a side tangent, I vaguely recall reading that the Navy of the era ran into... issues... with how they "used" their ranks. In summary:
    Commodore was, by tradition, the Title given to the Officer in charge of a group of ships at sea (task force / sailing group / mini-fleet). By this same tradition, the "rank insignia" of this officer was a single star. Thusly, the Navy "titled" their single star "rank" Commodore, and allowed (mandated?) it's wear by the officer fulfilling the Commodore's role at sea (whether a senior O6 "Captain" or an actual O7). All O7s not at sea in command of some sort of "mini-fleet" were instructed to wear the two stars of an Admiral and to use the rank title "Rear Admiral" - along with the O8s.
    While the Navy got along with "knowledge of seniority" to know which 2-stars were legit O8s and which 2-stars were paid like (and had the responsibilities of) O7s, the "ground pounder" forces (USAF / Army / Marines) took "offense" to the Navy O7s wearing 2 stars and "confusing the Generals" (was that 2-star my 2-star equal, or in reality my 1-star subordinate?) or whatnot (case of "if their O7s can wear two stars, why can't we?").
    Thusly, I think the Navy attempted to use one-star rank and title on all their O7s while still letting the "senior O6s" use the traditional appilation "Commodore", but that just confused the Navy and "stomped on their tradition", so they discontinued all "formal" use of the title Commodore and accompanying use of the single star as it's insignia, assigning the rank "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" to all the "existing" O7 "Rear Admirals" that had to "give up wearing that second star" - making the O8s, by default, "Rear Admiral, Upper Half". Captains in charge of "mini-fleets" could still sorta use the title "Commodore", but all paperwork, uniforms, etc. had to be written with their legitimate title of Captain, giving rise to "Fleet Captain" to help... denote... which O6 was in charge of the "group" at sea...
    For the record, this is hasty writing, hazy memory, and USAF-tainted... :)
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2016
    talonxv wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    You can say it as many times as you like. It doesn't make a flag bridge magically appear on a Galaxy. Just the bog standard bridge with Ross in the centre seat.
    Kirk was a Commodore as were others. Absolutely nobody was ever addressed as RALH in ST ever. Starfleet is not the US Navy. I'm not sure how many times I have to type that before people stop posting US Navy trivia to get address Starfleet.

    Kirk was NEVER a commodore. Kirk Memory alpha. Captain untill 2270 when he was promoted to "REAR ADMIRAL" and placed as Chief of Operations.

    Kirk never became a Commodore. Rank was phased out before he could attain it. PERIOD THE END. He was never addressed as commodore, only Admiral, or Captain when he took command of the Refit Enterprise during the V'Ger incident.

    Nice try.

    Okay, I'll try again. Show me the source (canon obviously) that says that, not whatever fanfiction Memory Alpha uses (that site has more editor bias than Wikipedia), go directly to the episodes and films and show me where that happens.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Sisko commanded DS9 and the Defiant as Commander. And refuse it all you like, Dax was the Defiant's XO (because Worf was First Officer on Martok's ship at that time) and after Sisko's reallocation the ship's commanding officer.

    Of course Starfleet will have lower ranks command starships. They always did that, and it just makes plain sense.

    Acting XO, she never received the promotion to commander because it wasn't a permanent post.

    I had thought the Defiant showed up after Siskos promotion but obviously not. Still doesn't exactly produce any more than just one example of a lower than captain rank in command of a Starship.

    That's why you get examples like the TOS and TNG films where both Enterprises have a command staff that is almost entirely Captains or Commanders rather than them all having their own ships.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    [...]
    As he was was sat in the captains chair I think it's safe to say it was his ship. Notice how visiting Admirals took the seat to Picards left? That's not where Ross was sat.

    A Galaxy class cruiser has two bridges.

    The battle bridge is an old TMP style bridge, you'd recognise it if you saw it.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Audie Murphy ended his active career as Major... which would be a Commander in Starfleet.

    For very good reasons, military organisations don't hand out promotions for heroic acts. That is what medals are for. Heroic acts prove heroism, not being fit for command beyond the hero's already achieved rank.

    And as Starfleet does promote people as a reward and not for military experience, you're point is immaterial. As above, just look at all the Captains and Commanders on the A and E.

    Starfleet does not share almost anything with the US military in terms of career, progression, ranks, promotions, command structures, medals, rank responsibilities, job roles, chain of command, uniform codes and saluting, and pretty much anything else.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    @sophlogimo Again, in your (and some others) opinion, thats a better structure but it remains your/thier opinion, which is no more or less valid than anyone elses. Afterall, Admiral Kirk, Riker, and the guy at Wolf 359 were in command/ "captaining" of the ships that they led into action, and are just as much validations of Admirals of various ranks commanding ships, if not more valid, than those who want to cap commanding ships in this game. Admirals "captaining" ships are canon in Star Trek, even if some people don't like it.
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    @sophlogimo

    I have already stated the structure that I believe would be the best, add LTJG and Commodore to the current structure, and make each rank ten levels, other than that, the current structure is fine. There is nothing wrong with having the players go all the way up to fleet admiral.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Well, first, you thus prove that there was no Admiral rank in TOS that had permanent command of a ship. The highest we could plausibly go would thus be Commodore, just to stick with canon.

    Commodore is an Admiral rank.
    And stop pretending other Admirals didn't command their own ships, you can't just ignore them. Going by number of pips, we've seen Commodores, Rear Admirals and Admirals command their own ships, so I'd assume Vice Admirals would as well.

    sophlogimo wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    [...]
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]
    Of course Starfleet will have lower ranks command starships. They always did that, and it just makes plain sense.

    Acting XO, she never received the promotion to commander because it wasn't a permanent post.

    Even if what you insinuate with that was true, that would only mean Commanders command starships (but she was called "Captain" of the vessel because she was the CO anyway).
    [...]
    That's why you get examples like the TOS and TNG films where both Enterprises have a command staff that is almost entirely Captains or Commanders rather than them all having their own ships.

    No, the reason for that is that they all pulled the Riker maneuver in declining any transfer top their own command position.
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    He probbaly used the main bridge as the flag bridge, because it had more space.

    Or, more likely, he was captain of that particular Galaxy. Ross was only commanding one section of the Federation's forces, Sisko was commanding another, and Martok the Klingons, and those two managed it from their own centre seats, why would Ross be doing it differently even though he was shown sitting in his centre seat?
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    Yes, Starfleet does promote people to lower officer ranks up to and including captain for heroism in combat (similar to Audie Murphy's promotion to 1st Lieutenant) if the officer in question is fit for the higher role. Yet, not even Kirk got his Admiral promotion for that.

    We don't know why Kirk got promoted to Commodore but it was most likely for his exemplary five year mission (i.e. almost entirely non-combat acts). Janeway got a promotion to Vice Admiral for her seven year trek through the Delta Quadrant, Archer got Commodore for helping to form the Coalition of planets. It appears the command crews of the A and D got their ranks due to long service. The CC of the F were all in their 40s (and the A in their 50s as captains) by the time they got Commander, a quarter of the way through their lives and maybe half of the way through their careers, it would seem natural for most in Starfleet to reach admiral of one form or another.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    official rank structure should be:

    Cadet -Tutorial only.
    Lieutenant - 1-10
    Lt Commander - 11-20
    Commander - 21-30
    Captain - 31-40
    Commodore - 41-50 - unless it is not added, but fleet admiral is, as a result in brackets will be the changed format.
    Rear Admiral -51-55 (41-50)
    Vice Admiral - 55-59 (51-55)
    Admiral - 60 (56-59)
    (Fleet Admiral - 60) - Only if Commodore is not added.

    should expac extend the level cap again to say 65?

    Vice Admiral - 55-60
    Admiral - 61-64
    Fleet Admiral - 65

    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Starfleet_ranks - official rank structure when you scroll down the page a bit. so that isnt what i would consider personal preference.

    my personal preference is that it should be

    Cadet - Tutorial
    Ensign - 1-10
    Lt Junior Grade - 11-20
    Lieutenant - 21-30
    Lt Commander - 31-40
    Commander - 41-50
    Captain - 51-59
    Commodore - 60 - that way it doesnt get pretentious with the rank system and you can keep command of your ship but it also includes responsibility to a small group of ship unlike an admiral who has to be behind a desk ordering fleets about.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Sign In or Register to comment.