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In honor of TOS: Captain rank cap

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  • farshorefarshore Member Posts: 353 Arc User
    You folks need to understand that Admiral is just a rank. It is not a specific job. An Admiral can do many things, not even specifically related to the command of ships. There are admirals that deal in communications, logistics, special forces. We're fleet admirals who's job it is to represent and generally kick TRIBBLE. If anyone tries to pull rank on us while we're doing our job, we're basically covered.
  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    farshore wrote: »
    You folks need to understand that Admiral is just a rank. It is not a specific job. An Admiral can do many things, not even specifically related to the command of ships. There are admirals that deal in communications, logistics, special forces. We're fleet admirals who's job it is to represent and generally kick TRIBBLE. If anyone tries to pull rank on us while we're doing our job, we're basically covered.

    Of course they can, but that doesn't change the fact we know how things worked in the Starfleet of the 2270s and that Admirals were not normally serving as commanding officers, they were dealing with things like logistics, special forces, paperwork, etc.

    In 2410 things are different of course, but if we become an Admiral in 2270 and still fly around in a ship it breaks the canon of the show and movies, because Kirk would have just pointed our captain out in the movies, which he obviously didn't do.
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    You all seem to be forgetting one key fact: by 2409, and definitely by 2410, the Federation was fighting a hot war on multiple fronts - the Borg, Undine/Species 8472, the Klingons. In the 23rd Century, it was largely a "Cold War" with the Enterprise merely defending herself against attacks by opportunistic (and most likely rogue) elements of the Klingon Empire and Romulans.

    Because of the losses of command-capable officers - due to assimilation, Undine replacement, or being KIA - promising cadets/warriors/civilians (i.e. your characters) are being pushed out with a commission and several rapid and subsequent promotions for feats of bravery and skill - what better way to repay those characters?

    It's also a way of giving you access to higher-tier/"more powerful" ships, since the better ships are usually reserved for superior/higher ranking officers.
    MXeSfqV.jpg
  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    Unless of course it turns out to not be a faction, but we'll wait and see about that.
    MXeSfqV.jpg
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,944 Arc User
    ashrod63 wrote: »
    farshore wrote: »
    You folks need to understand that Admiral is just a rank. It is not a specific job. An Admiral can do many things, not even specifically related to the command of ships. There are admirals that deal in communications, logistics, special forces. We're fleet admirals who's job it is to represent and generally kick TRIBBLE. If anyone tries to pull rank on us while we're doing our job, we're basically covered.

    Of course they can, but that doesn't change the fact we know how things worked in the Starfleet of the 2270s and that Admirals were not normally serving as commanding officers, they were dealing with things like logistics, special forces, paperwork, etc.

    In 2410 things are different of course, but if we become an Admiral in 2270 and still fly around in a ship it breaks the canon of the show and movies, because Kirk would have just pointed our captain out in the movies, which he obviously didn't do.

    Not really. People seem to forget that Commodore is a flag rank and translates to a one star admiral. Matt Decker was a Commodore and commanded the Constellation.

    Also there is Captain rank and Captain position. Anyone that is the commanding officer of a ship...even if they aren't the rank of Captain are referred to as Captain.
    It should be noted that in WOK there was no need to "demote Kirk to Captain" nor demote Spock to Commander when Kirk took command.
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  • tigrovaya13akulatigrovaya13akula Member Posts: 151 Arc User
    While I agree with the OP, as a USN Submarine veteran I feel the need to clarify that Rank and Titles are two SEPARATE things.

    The Commanding Officer of a ship, regardless of his actual rank is THE CAPTAIN (aka The Skipper/Charlie Oscar/the CO).

    For an IRL ocean-going Tug Boat (for example) CO's rank: E-8 to E-9 (Senior Chief to Master Chief Petty Officer) Title: CAPTAIN.
    Yes, even for an Enlisted Non-commissioned Officer, whom is the CO of a vessel, his title is The Captain.

    Frigate and Destroyer CO's often commanded by an 0-3 to 0-4 (Lieutenant or Lt. Commander), his title: Captain.

    Cruiser and Submarine CO's (an 0-5) rank Commander, title Captain.

    Aircraft Carrier and Submarine Squadron (4 to 8 submarines) CO, rank Captain, title for the CVN Captain; title for the Sub Squadron CO, Commodore.

    Battle Group Commander (stationed on the Carrier) rank (0-7 to 0-8) Rear Admiral Lower Half (1-Star) to Rear Adm. Upper Half (2-Star). Same ranks & titles for Submarine Group Commander (3+ Submarine Squadrons).

    Commander Submarine (Forces) Atlantic or Pacific; rank and title 0-9 Vice Admiral (3-Star).

    Commander of a Fleet (Naval Forces Atlantic or CINCLANTFLT / CINCPACFLT; an 0-10 (4-Star) rank & title Admiral. Also for the CNO (Chief of Naval Operations.

    During WW2 & up until the Korean War, Fleet Admiral (0-11) a 5-Star Flag Officer. Admiral Nimitz and Generals Mac Arthur & Eisenhower and General Pershing (USAF) were each 5-Star Flag Officers.

    So in summary, Admirals are in overall command of multiple ships Simultaneously (NOT just 1 ship at a time like in this game/ the Admiralty DOFF system notwithstanding).

    Likewise, Generals are in command of an entire Army or a Battalion, which is comprised of a number of Regiments, Companies, Platoons and Squads.

    So, in terms of practicality, our characters' Ranks & Titles should not exceed 0-6, a Captain or for the KDF & Rom's, their equivalents for a Captain or a Colonel.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2016
    I wonder if anybody told Admiral Hanson (in FC), Fleet Admiral Ross, Commadore Decker etc. That they can't command a ship and should be rank capped at captain.

    As long as those people exist, I will continue to be a Fleet Admiral in my ship.

    The only example of a Admiral assumin he had to rank cap himself was Kirk in TMP and I'm almost certain that was just to pi$$ off Decker by demoting him to Commander.

    There are bigger problems with the current rank structure like all the missing ranks including Commodore (due to spliting Rear Admiral in two half levels as though Starfleet is the US Navy) and a few of the lower officer ranks.

    Edit: Really? Is the Mothers Union writing the censor filter on here? How many easily offended five year olds do we have around here anyway?
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    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • bloctoadbloctoad Member Posts: 660 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Pretty sure the Dahar Masters will object.

    It's just silly running around with that many Fleet Admiralsand Dahar Masters. Officers of our rank should have our own desk at HQ ordering others to mine rocks and ferry colonists.
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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,944 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    I wonder if anybody told Admiral Hanson (in FC), Fleet Admiral Ross, Commadore Decker etc. That they can't command a ship and should be rank capped at captain.

    As long as those people exist, I will continue to be a Fleet Admiral in my ship.

    The only example of a Admiral assumin he had to rank cap himself was Kirk in TMP and I'm almost certain that was just to pi$$ off Decker by demoting him to Commander.

    There are bigger problems with the current rank structure like all the missing ranks including Commodore (due to spliting Rear Admiral in two half levels as though Starfleet is the US Navy) and a few of the lower officer ranks.

    Edit: Really? Is the Mothers Union writing the censor filter on here? How many easily offended five year olds do we have around here anyway?

    People tend to forget that we have been commanding fleets...aka sending ships that we own on missions.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,441 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    (...)
    Edit: Really? Is the Mothers Union writing the censor filter on here? How many easily offended five year olds do we have around here anyway?

    I think the five year olds are the last to be offended about "no-no" words, it's everyone around them making a fool out of themselves pig-2.gif​​
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
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  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,530 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    you forget even Kirk made Admiral in the ToS movies

    One of the longstanding themes that Kirk represented in those movies was that Admiral was a desk job and that Captain was where the action was. It's why a later post in the thread suggests Captain (demoted).

    I'm pretty sure the OP is very much aware of Kirk as an Admiral in the movies. However briefly Kirk was that rank.

    Kirk was an Admiral for 4 of the of the 6 ToS movies plus whatever time might have passed in between movies and was not demoted back to captain until about the last 10 minutes of the 4th movie, i would hardly class that as a brief amount of time and during those 4 movies I think Kirk proved that the Admiral rank was far from being a desk job if you didn't want it to be in fact for the best part of his career as Admiral he spent a substantial amount of time captaining a starship.

    to get the rank Captain (demoted) there would need to be some thing in the story line to cause your captain to be demoted and personally I would rather my character had a spotless career.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Afraid it wont fly, Kirk commanded the Enterprise when he was an Admiral although he trod on Captain Decker's toes to do it. Try explain that away as far as commanding a ship while an Admiral.

    In addition Commodore Decker also had command of a ship. Any Commodore or Rear Admiral or above can be a flag officer in Starfleet, specific Captains can give the orders to a battle group, however only a flag officer can interpret those orders and give them to the fleet.
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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    plus whatever time might have passed in between movies

    I highly recommend (because it's fun) we both go back and rewatch those movies to get a much clearer grasp on how much time passes between the end of Wrath of Khan and the end of The Voyage Home. It's shocking how little time that is.
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  • isthisscienceisthisscience Member Posts: 863 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    If they were starting from scratch, captain should have been the top rank. But I don't think they can reduce it now, even for one faction. It would be fun to give a nod to Kirk to one day to a "finale" episode where Quinn had died and you're going to take his job at ESD whether you are keen on it or not. Then you do something stupid but awesome, they demote you to captain and you warp off into the sunset. End of story.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,471 Arc User
    Repeating this post as it has been ignored:
    [quote="sharpie65;12924230"]Actually, Kirk was OiC Starfleet Operations at the time of TMP - if anything, he demoted Captain Decker to first officer (most likely due to his experience in commanding a starship). Kirk was only demoted to captain after the events of Star Trek IV.[/quote]

    Kirk was demoted to Captain in TMP, in order to take command of the Enterprise.
    [url="http://www.macaucabletv.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Cinemax-STAR-TREK-THE-MOTION-PICTURE1.jpg"]macaucabletv.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Cinemax-STAR-TREK-THE-MOTION-PICTURE1.jpg[/url] (rank insignia)

    Quote from Memory Alpha: "After convincing Admiral Nogura that he was the best man to meet the threat, Kirk rushed the Enterprise into service, assuming the rank of captain for the duration of the mission"

    There would have been no need for him to demote Decker if he had retained his Admiral rank.


  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    reyan01 wrote: »
    assuming the rank of captain for the duration of the mission"

    that one word states volumes more than what you wrote.

    anyone can be called the "captain" of a ship when they command it, even ensign nog if the main officers were knocked out.

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    If they were starting from scratch, captain should have been the top rank.

    Why? We've established admirals command starships and we're performing acts that earn us a rank far beyond Captain.

    What they should do is give an option to let people suspend earning XP at captain level so they can be stuck in T3 ships with their low rank forever.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,471 Arc User
    Except that he wore Captain rank/uniform


  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,471 Arc User
    Except that he wore Captain rank/uniform


  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,944 Arc User
    and when he assumed command in WOK why didn't he change rank?
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Except that he wore Captain rank/uniform

    May have been an oversight, it wouldnt be the first oversight seen in sci fi. i wondered if that was explained off screen because kirk was established as an admiral on screen and was an admiral until after film 4 about the whales. it is also heavily implied when chatting to decker that decker mentioned to kirk that kirk is pulling rank to get the ship. in addition he was mentioned several times through a few films to be known as "Admiral".
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Not really. People seem to forget that Commodore is a flag rank and translates to a one star admiral. Matt Decker was a Commodore and commanded the Constellation.

    Also there is Captain rank and Captain position. Anyone that is the commanding officer of a ship...even if they aren't the rank of Captain are referred to as Captain.
    It should be noted that in WOK there was no need to "demote Kirk to Captain" nor demote Spock to Commander when Kirk took command.

    The issue isn't whether it would be possible, it certainly would be and is (see our own captains/admirals in 2410). The problem is should we in 2270 be doing this, given what Kirk is going to do in 2272/73 (they weren't too specific on dates, just two and a half years) and then again a decade later.

    That's why Commodore isn't such an issue, because Kirk was up at Admiral so there's no clash.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    TMP is the anomaly and the only instance where somebody is demoted to the rank of captain to fulfil the function of captain. Like Romulans not having warp drive in 'Balance of Terror', simply ignore it and focus on the many more example of where that was not the case.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,471 Arc User
    TWOK onward he was never 'officially' the Enterprise's commanding officer:

    TWOK: Whilst he was an Admiral, he wasn't the Enterprise's commanding officer - Captain Spock was. He was aboard the Enterprise to observe the Cadet training cruise. Captain Spock deferred to him due to their friendship and the fact that the circumstances (ship crewed by Cadets) were far from ideal.

    TSfS: He stole the Enterprise. That doesn't count.

    And he was demoted back to Captain before taking command of the 1701-A


  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    TWOK onward he was never 'officially' the Enterprise's commanding officer:

    TWOK: Whilst he was an Admiral, he wasn't the Enterprise's commanding officer - Captain Spock was. He was aboard the Enterprise to observe the Cadet training cruise. Captain Spock deferred to him due to their friendship and the fact that the circumstances (ship crewed by Cadets) were far from ideal.

    TSfS: He stole the Enterprise. That doesn't count.

    Twok counts because he took command of the ship and was allowed to despite the training cruise and lead the mission and despite what Spock may have said, he had command rank.

    TSfS counts because as an admiral he used his position to steal the enterprise and commandeer crew members under his watch and further a laundry list of charges put against the rank as an admiral in command of a starship he stole.
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  • bobbydazlersbobbydazlers Member Posts: 4,530 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    Afraid it wont fly, Kirk commanded the Enterprise when he was an Admiral although he trod on Captain Decker's toes to do it. Try explain that away as far as commanding a ship while an Admiral.

    In addition Commodore Decker also had command of a ship. Any Commodore or Rear Admiral or above can be a flag officer in Starfleet, specific Captains can give the orders to a battle group, however only a flag officer can interpret those orders and give them to the fleet.

    quite true Kirk did step on Deckers toes this was indeed when Kirk temporarily downgraded Decker's position to executive officer and his rank from captain to commander so Kirk could captain the ship for the first movie and Kirk stayed on captaining the ship all the way through "the wrath of khan" and right up until it was set to self destruct towards the end of "the search for spock" and shortly after took command of the Klingon bird of prey as its captain and retained that position right up until the tail end of "the voyage home".
    that's a fair bit of captaining for an Admiral IMO and about as far from being a "desk job" as you can get.
    in fact if star fleet had agreed for Kirk to return to genesis he would have retained his rank as Admiral right up to his disappearance in "Generations" and done a fair bit more captaining at that rank, at least through the next 2 movies "The Final Frontier" & "The Undiscovered Country" for sure.

    When I think about everything we've been through together,

    maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,

     and if that journey takes a little longer,

    so we can do something we all believe in,

     I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.

  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,471 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    reyan01 wrote: »
    TWOK onward he was never 'officially' the Enterprise's commanding officer:

    TWOK: Whilst he was an Admiral, he wasn't the Enterprise's commanding officer - Captain Spock was. He was aboard the Enterprise to observe the Cadet training cruise. Captain Spock deferred to him due to their friendship and the fact that the circumstances (ship crewed by Cadets) were far from ideal.

    TSfS: He stole the Enterprise. That doesn't count.

    Twok counts because he took command of the ship and was allowed to despite the training cruise and lead the mission and despite what Spock may have said, he had command rank.

    TSfS counts because as an admiral he used his position to steal the enterprise and commandeer crew members under his watch and further a laundry list of charges put against the rank as an admiral in command of a starship he stole.
    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

    TMP: Noted that he was demoted to facilitate his taking command of the Enterprise. I've already posted evidence that he ceased wearing his Admiral's uniform. He wore the uniform of a Captain with the rank insignia of a captain. The crew referred to him as Captain. I'll also note that it isn't clear whether referring to the commanding officer of a ship as 'Captain' applies when the officer holds a rank higher than Captain.

    TWOK: Not denying he took command of the ship. But that was due to exceptional circumstances. It was a training cruise - a "ship full of children". Spock was the commanding officer, but he deferred to Kirk due to their friendship and the exceptional circumstances. An absolutely unique scenario.

    TSfS: It wouldn't really have mattered what rank he was. He stole the ship, and he didn't order anyone to do anything; the 'crew' volunteered' their services, clearly aware of the consequences. He wasn't aboard in any sort of official capacity and wasn't her commanding officer.


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