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In honor of TOS: Captain rank cap

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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Again no. I did not single handedly end the Iconian War to be rank caped at Commodore. Even Fleet Admiral is too low a rank for achievements of the majesty preformed by my charcter.

    Audie murphy won every single award the Army had in WW2, Chesty Puller won the navy cross not once, not twice but 5 times. Did they suddenly get elevated to General of the army? Nope.
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  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    ltminns wrote: »
    An Honorific as Fleet Admiral really is as well.

    Not really; "DaHar" translates literally to English as "you-believe-him" and so a DaHar master is one who tells stories of incredible feats but also is proven true in what they say. Which, in the context of Klingon culture which values tales of warrior's valour, makes perfect sense.

    And therefore, a Klingon who did ALL the storyline of STO would have damn well earnt it when you look at the battles faced and the stories that could be woven of them:

    ETA - In ANY case, the facts are the Dahar Masters in Canon were Captain rank, not Admirals of any sort.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Again no. I did not single handedly end the Iconian War to be rank caped at Commodore. Even Fleet Admiral is too low a rank for achievements of the majesty preformed by my charcter.

    Audie murphy won every single award the Army had in WW2, Chesty Puller won the navy cross not once, not twice but 5 times. Did they suddenly get elevated to General of the army? Nope.

    And that would be a point if I suggested we be promoted to Commander Starfleet but I said Fleet Admiral. And saving the entire quadrant is a bit more significant. Especially considering the PC is a member of starfleet, not in an army.​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    'Historical' usage. Klingons use Generals.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    I wonder if anybody told Admiral Hanson (in FC), Fleet Admiral Ross, Commadore Decker etc. That they can't command a ship and should be rank capped at captain.

    As long as those people exist, I will continue to be a Fleet Admiral in my ship.

    The only example of a Admiral assumin he had to rank cap himself was Kirk in TMP and I'm almost certain that was just to pi$$ off Decker by demoting him to Commander.

    There are bigger problems with the current rank structure like all the missing ranks including Commodore (due to spliting Rear Admiral in two half levels as though Starfleet is the US Navy) and a few of the lower officer ranks.

    Edit: Really? Is the Mothers Union writing the censor filter on here? How many easily offended five year olds do we have around here anyway?

    Ross didn't command the ship he was on. He had something called a flag bridge. He simply rode along that Galaxy and commanded the fleet while the actual ships captain commanded and fought the ship.

    so you really can't use Ross. Decker otoh, yeah he sat in the hot seat. Star Trek really gets wishy washy about flag officers. At times they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing, and at other times, they are acting well below their rank.
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    Afraid it wont fly, Kirk commanded the Enterprise when he was an Admiral although he trod on Captain Decker's toes to do it. Try explain that away as far as commanding a ship while an Admiral.

    In addition Commodore Decker also had command of a ship. Any Commodore or Rear Admiral or above can be a flag officer in Starfleet, specific Captains can give the orders to a battle group, however only a flag officer can interpret those orders and give them to the fleet.

    quite true Kirk did step on Deckers toes this was indeed when Kirk temporarily downgraded Decker's position to executive officer and his rank from captain to commander so Kirk could captain the ship for the first movie and Kirk stayed on captaining the ship all the way through "the wrath of khan" and right up until it was set to self destruct towards the end of "the search for spock" and shortly after took command of the Klingon bird of prey as its captain and retained that position right up until the tail end of "the voyage home".
    that's a fair bit of captaining for an Admiral IMO and about as far from being a "desk job" as you can get.
    in fact if star fleet had agreed for Kirk to return to genesis he would have retained his rank as Admiral right up to his disappearance in "Generations" and done a fair bit more captaining at that rank, at least through the next 2 movies "The Final Frontier" & "The Undiscovered Country" for sure.

    Let's see. ITWOK, Spock told Kirk to assume command since he was the senior officer. Up until that point, Kirk was merely riding along in the Enterprise. Search for Spock, Kirk was merely bringing the Enterprise home before he stole it and went AWOL. Voyage home, really can't be used since at that point Kirk was renegade. At the end of 4, Kirk gets DEMOTED TO CAPTAIN.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    And some like Commodore Stocker are 'chair-bound paper-pushers'.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    talonxv wrote: »
    Ross didn't command the ship he was on. He had something called a flag bridge. He simply rode along that Galaxy and commanded the fleet while the actual ships captain commanded and fought the ship.

    so you really can't use Ross. Decker otoh, yeah he sat in the hot seat. Star Trek really gets wishy washy about flag officers. At times they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing, and at other times, they are acting well below their rank.

    The Bellerophon? No, that was Ross' ship, the Intrepid Class, from 'Inter Armwhatsit'. But again, Starfleet is not the US Navy, what reason is there to believe an Admiral (and all flag officers) shouldn't be captaining a Starship? What makes you think that's below their rank at all?​​
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Again no. I did not single handedly end the Iconian War to be rank caped at Commodore. Even Fleet Admiral is too low a rank for achievements of the majesty preformed by my charcter.

    Audie murphy won every single award the Army had in WW2, Chesty Puller won the navy cross not once, not twice but 5 times. Did they suddenly get elevated to General of the army? Nope.

    And that would be a point if I suggested we be promoted to Commander Starfleet but I said Fleet Admiral. And saving the entire quadrant is a bit more significant. Especially considering the PC is a member of starfleet, not in an army.​​

    Yeah you do that, sit at Earth space dock all day filling out paperwork, and taking the crushing responsibility of running ALL of starfleet.

    PASS. I'm going to continue to wear the Rear Admiral lower rank and command my carrier group thanks.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Yes, sit in ESD and allow all sorts of party favors fire off in a Military Installation. Real Captains wouldn't allow that to continue. ;)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    talonxv wrote: »
    Ross didn't command the ship he was on. He had something called a flag bridge. He simply rode along that Galaxy and commanded the fleet while the actual ships captain commanded and fought the ship.

    so you really can't use Ross. Decker otoh, yeah he sat in the hot seat. Star Trek really gets wishy washy about flag officers. At times they are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing, and at other times, they are acting well below their rank.

    The Bellerophon? No, that was Ross' ship, the Intrepid Class, from 'Inter Armwhatsit'. But again, Starfleet is not the US Navy, what reason is there to believe an Admiral (and all flag officers) shouldn't be captaining a Starship? What makes you think that's below their rank at all?​​

    Thought he had a galaxy as his flag? Oh well either way, Ross was NOT commanding the ship.
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  • ashrod63ashrod63 Member Posts: 384 Arc User
    We're talking about The Original Series here guys with the upcoming Agents of Tomorrow expansion, not the movies.

    This expansion is set in 2270, between the end of TOS but before TMP.

    While we will be looking at the aftermath of the events of Kirk's five year mission, it doesn't really change the fact V'Ger is looming.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2016
    [quote]
    Yeah you do that, sit at Earth space dock all day filling out paperwork, and taking the crushing responsibility of running ALL of starfleet.

    PASS. I'm going to continue to wear the Rear Admiral lower rank and command my carrier group thanks.
    [/quote]

    ¿?

    I've already pointed out there are many Fleet Admirals. Why would one be running all of Starfleet? That's what Commander Starfleet's for. He doesn't get all that extra gold froggingfor nothing.

    So one of my characters is happy to keep his one square pip and remain a Commodore (despite Cryptic mixing up Starfleet with the US Navy an calling it Rear Admiral Lower Half rather than the rank it was in the show) my other main is a Fleet Admiral and still in direct command of a Starship as the show proves Admirals can be.

    [quote]
    Thought he had a galaxy as his flag? Oh well either way, Ross was NOT commanding the ship.
    [\quote]

    As he was was sat in the captains chair I think it's safe to say it was his ship. Notice how visiting Admirals took the seat to Picards left? That's not where Ross was sat.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah you do that, sit at Earth space dock all day filling out paperwork, and taking the crushing responsibility of running ALL of starfleet.

    PASS. I'm going to continue to wear the Rear Admiral lower rank and command my carrier group thanks.

    ¿?

    I've already pointed out there are many Fleet Admirals. Why would one be running all of Starfleet? That's what Commander Starfleet's for. He doesn't get all that extra gold froggingfor nothing.

    So one of my characters is happy to keep his one square pip and remain a Commodore (despite Cryptic mixing up Starfleet with the US Navy an calling it Rear Admiral Lower Half rather than the rank it was in the show) my other main is a Fleet Admiral and still in direct command of a Starship as the show proves Admirals can be.
    Thought he had a galaxy as his flag? Oh well either way, Ross was NOT commanding the ship.
    [\quote]

    As he was was sat in the captains chair I think it's safe to say it was his ship. Notice how visiting Admirals took the seat to Picards left? That's not where Ross was sat.

    Umm no, most times you saw Ross, he was sitting NOT on the bridge. Even at the battle of Cardassia, he was not in the hot seat. He sat on his chair in the FLAG BRIDGE. How many times must I say that?

    And Gene Roddenberry actually used the Modern US Navy of the time as his template for Starfleet ranks. Hence when in the late 70s Commodore got phased out of the USN in favor of Rear Admiral Lower half, notice what happened with Star fleet ranks? Hence the reason why Kirk was a Rear Admiral instead of Commodore.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    You can say it as many times as you like. It doesn't make a flag bridge magically appear on a Galaxy. Just the bog standard bridge with Ross in the centre seat.
    Kirk was a Commodore as were others. Absolutely nobody was ever addressed as RALH in ST ever. Starfleet is not the US Navy. I'm not sure how many times I have to type that before people stop posting US Navy trivia to get address Starfleet.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    You can say it as many times as you like. It doesn't make a flag bridge magically appear on a Galaxy. Just the bog standard bridge with Ross in the centre seat.
    Kirk was a Commodore as were others. Absolutely nobody was ever addressed as RALH in ST ever. Starfleet is not the US Navy. I'm not sure how many times I have to type that before people stop posting US Navy trivia to get address Starfleet.

    Kirk was NEVER a commodore. Kirk Memory alpha. Captain untill 2270 when he was promoted to "REAR ADMIRAL" and placed as Chief of Operations.

    Kirk never became a Commodore. Rank was phased out before he could attain it. PERIOD THE END. He was never addressed as commodore, only Admiral, or Captain when he took command of the Refit Enterprise during the V'Ger incident.

    Nice try.
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  • sharpie65sharpie65 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    How about we just agree to differ, and say that Commodore comes between Captain and Rear Admiral in the rank structure of modern Starfleet (since the game (is?) isn't considered canon, neither is the rank structure).
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  • talonxvtalonxv Member Posts: 4,257 Arc User
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    How about we just agree to differ, and say that Commodore comes between Captain and Rear Admiral in the rank structure of modern Starfleet (since the game (is?) isn't considered canon, neither is the rank structure).

    Rank of Commodore was phased out by the year 2270. Sorry it doesn't exist anymore by our time. RALH replaced it.
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  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    Yet another thread attempting to alter the ranking structure in game, with the premise of TOS expansion as the excuse. Guys, Cryptic hasn't fixed the structure in the last 6 or so years, and takes forever to work on lower order issues but you want them to change it for a set of missions/content in the game? Best of luck with that.

    That being said, if Crypric was to restructure the ranks to have a rank bump every ten levels (including Admiralty) and add in LTJG, and throw in Commodore, just for more levels, I would be all for that but to change over semantics? No thank you.
  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    sharpie65 wrote: »
    How about we just agree to differ, and say that Commodore comes between Captain and Rear Admiral in the rank structure of modern Starfleet (since the game (is?) isn't considered canon, neither is the rank structure).

    I believe:

    1. While "Commodore" was a thing in TOS, oddly enough, the USN of that time had a "Commodore" Rank and Title...

    2. By TMP and especially TNG, I don't recall hearing Commodore mentioned at all - Not as a task force commander, not as a rank, nowhere, though I recall hearing a few people addressed as "Rear Admiral" - not too often does anyone bother to explain what "half" the officer in question is... And coincidentally, the USN had replaced the "Commodore" Rank with "Rear Admiral, Lower Half", and the Commodore title was replaced by "Fleet Captain"...

    Therefore, Starfleet seems to "mirror" the progression of the USN, as to whether Commodore will or won't (currently won't :tongue: ) be a rank...

    However, if TOS will be a "separate" faction, and if it's gonna "mirror" the "main game's" rank structure - then seeing Commodore for 40-44 and a "plain" Rear Admiral (no half) for 45-49 would be most appropriate.

    Otherwise, by all means, rebuild the rank structure so that you don't hit Commodore till 60, leaving you as a "Captain" for the 50s and maybe even the 40s...

    Though I like my "stars". I want Commodore and Fleet Admiral for my TOS characters, since my "TNG" characters all have Rear Admiralty on the way to Fleet Admiralty...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    talonxv wrote: »
    Afraid it wont fly, Kirk commanded the Enterprise when he was an Admiral although he trod on Captain Decker's toes to do it. Try explain that away as far as commanding a ship while an Admiral.

    In addition Commodore Decker also had command of a ship. Any Commodore or Rear Admiral or above can be a flag officer in Starfleet, specific Captains can give the orders to a battle group, however only a flag officer can interpret those orders and give them to the fleet.

    quite true Kirk did step on Deckers toes this was indeed when Kirk temporarily downgraded Decker's position to executive officer and his rank from captain to commander so Kirk could captain the ship for the first movie and Kirk stayed on captaining the ship all the way through "the wrath of khan" and right up until it was set to self destruct towards the end of "the search for spock" and shortly after took command of the Klingon bird of prey as its captain and retained that position right up until the tail end of "the voyage home".
    that's a fair bit of captaining for an Admiral IMO and about as far from being a "desk job" as you can get.
    in fact if star fleet had agreed for Kirk to return to genesis he would have retained his rank as Admiral right up to his disappearance in "Generations" and done a fair bit more captaining at that rank, at least through the next 2 movies "The Final Frontier" & "The Undiscovered Country" for sure.

    Let's see. ITWOK, Spock told Kirk to assume command since he was the senior officer. Up until that point, Kirk was merely riding along in the Enterprise. Search for Spock, Kirk was merely bringing the Enterprise home before he stole it and went AWOL. Voyage home, really can't be used since at that point Kirk was renegade. At the end of 4, Kirk gets DEMOTED TO CAPTAIN.

    the bottom line in this is that kirk was an admiral and spock was a captain, he could pull rank on spock and spock knew it.
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    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited May 2016
    sophlogimo wrote: »
    [...]
    the bottom line in this is that kirk was an admiral and spock was a captain, he could pull rank on spock and spock knew it.

    Spock talked more along the lines of "your are better suited for this than I am".

    i do not know why there is an argument about this i already mentioned above in the quote the exact reason, irrelevant of opinion.
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  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    If they were starting from scratch, captain should have been the top rank. But I don't think they can reduce it now, even for one faction. It would be fun to give a nod to Kirk to one day to a "finale" episode where Quinn had died and you're going to take his job at ESD whether you are keen on it or not. Then you do something stupid but awesome, they demote you to captain and you warp off into the sunset. End of story.

    If I were starting from scratch I'd have us separate ranks from levelling completely. And we'd start off as Captain right from jump as our title, since we are in command of a vessel. I'd just have taken the vanilla route where levels are levels.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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