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under 5k dps....stay out of advanced

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    edited June 2015
    Now, I'm not sure how you do your CC with the Scryer (do you continue to engage or do you drop some CC and head back to the Trans). But how that's done is going to matter...cause one isn't any damage being done to the Trans while one is. And in the end there, the Trans has to be destroyed. 3k that's not being applied to the Trans is the same as 0k being applied to the Trans. It's just zero damage...sure, the CC is going to be buying some time for the other four players - but the zero damage has to be factored into that equation as well. On the other hand, if it's drop and run back, well, that travel time back and forth's going to factor into overall DPS and one would expect it to be lower.

    Still a WIP Plasmatic Biomatter build with Grav Well, Tyken's Rift, a Tractor Repulsor, and a Projected Singularity console. No beam augmenting BOff powers that I remember. MIGHT have Beam Overload though. Two forward Dual Beam banks and a Particle Emission Plasma front and two Beam arrays and AP Torp aft. Think I put the Reman set on her too, but its been a while since I dusted her off.

    Although she didn't do much direct damage herself... managed to actually get through the Benthan wave of Korfez with her spamming Grav Well and dropping Aceton Assimilators. I know I don't have outright killing power so I tend to hit and run if we need a second Grav Well.

    The only reason my Phantom is doing so good is because I've not only got her guns up to Mk XIV, she's running fleet consoles as well as a 2 piece CC set that adds some Phaser damage. Only Epic level consoles I got are universals. Other than that its a mix of blue (Tachyokinetic Converter), purple, and UV. My character spec is more balanced than outright damage dealing, and I've got full Intel tree as a Primary Spec. Also... this is on my main, who is a Tac.

    Also... I generally end up running with pwestolemyname, who is a fleet mate of mine, and he is the master of the MegaWell.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    edited June 2015
    Frickin' double post...
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Dude... Virus... I respect you man. But some of those people are making it sound like Advanced queues are an exclusive club where you MUST, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, meet x stat that is not easy to learn. Banning people who don't meet a DPS number? They take the elitism a bit far. I can get to 10k DPS in my Phantom, but I fly my Scryer... under those rules I would be locked out forever or something. And most of them are sounding like "Learn2Play n00b GTFO mah farmin' zone!" They aren't fostering a friendly environment for people to figure things out. They are wanting to discourage people who are not performing at a percieved level from even being there AT ALL so they can go about farming their marks on Advanced. In short, they are treating Advanced like Elite since the Borg STFs have no Elite level yet.

    I'm not arguing with what's being said per se. Its HOW its being said. Downright hostile in some cases. Also... this is STO. Practically out of the frying pan into the fire. Normal does not prepare for Advanced, and Advanced does not prepare for Elite.
    In one case (Korfez) there IS no Normal or Advanced.

    I dont understand why should a normal skilled player be able complete to advance. Why does a player deserve such rewards? These players dont deserve to complete advance. There are not losing at anything by not completing advance much like they dont lose anything by not completing elite. They can still play the same mission in Normal.

    Like this current event. A player having only 1 Lolhnut voucher but demanding they should get Nandi warship which requires 1000 vouchers because that particular player refuses to get 1000 vouchers. It is the same with Normal skilled players demanding they deserve to complete advance.

    I am totally against low efforts equal rewards. A higher effort player should get better rewards. The worst thing they should do is place back the Advance difficulty before the nerf.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    I think one reason is the higher payout and the elite mark. Its more enticing, especially to those who are working on a set that requires elite marks like MACO.

    As to the Nandi vouchers... I don't see the comparison. Unless you pay through the nose in Lobi (which IMO is not even worth it as that's quite a bit of real $$$ just for an event ship you can easily get for free and little effort anyways), everyone has the choice of either do it or not do it.

    And setting up a reward system that gives more to better performing players would be monopolized by the people who worship the DPS. Everyone else except those people would be punished for not playing the same way or shelling out the same amount of resources as the epic DPS people.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I think one reason is the higher payout and the elite mark. Its more enticing, especially to those who are working on a set that requires elite marks like MACO.

    Which is the point. Higher payout means you and/or your group made a better effort. If you did less effort or skill why should a player or group of players deserve higher payout?
    rattler2 wrote: »
    As to the Nandi vouchers... I don't see the comparison. Unless you pay through the nose in Lobi (which IMO is not even worth it as that's quite a bit of real $$$ just for an event ship you can easily get for free and little effort anyways), everyone has the choice of either do it or not do it.

    It is effort for reward rationality. You get the voucher you still made an effort acquiring those vouchers in whatever form. The same way you can do on normal, advance and elite rewards. Why should a Normal skilled player using Normal effort complete Advance and get Advance rewards?

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    paxdawn wrote: »
    It is effort for reward rationality. You get the voucher you still made an effort acquiring those vouchers in whatever form. The same way you can do on normal, advance and elite rewards. Why should a Normal skilled player using Normal effort complete Advance and get Advance rewards?

    Which unfortunately in this instance is rather toxic due to the DPS mentality, and kinda more of a slap in the face than anything positive and doesn't solve the issue.

    In this game, right now better performance = more deeps. What can get the most deeps? Aux2Batt builds and Tacs flying Escorts. Generally a Sci in a Science ship is going to suffer. Heck... sciences ships in general will suffer.

    "Why am I not getting good results?"
    "lol 'cuz yous weak Sci loser! Go Roll a Tac!"

    The closest we have to the performance reward system is Crystaline Entity. And it really only pays out for people who can DPS or Heal like crazy. However that is the ONLY fleet action I know of that does reward for something besides DPS.
    You get a couple DPS chasers or a dedicated heal boat into a CE... the average player might as well not bother because they won't get a reward because of their "performance".
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    aesica wrote: »
    So unless they're an TRIBBLE about how much they "pwn" the pve dragons and are carrying everyone, would you rather have people who can guarantee a quick and easy run, or have an entire team of undergeared people who fail to activate the devices so many times, the STF just advances anyway? :)

    Good manners are good manners, and isn't that what this thread is asking for, for people to have the courtesy that if you're inappropriately equipped for something then to not do it? If I'm running one of my ships that belongs in Advanced and I'm with someone who's struggling, so long as they're at least doing the bare minimum I'll help with heals and debuffs but I'm not going to take over and do their job for them; its theirs to do. Likewise if I'm in some of my not-so-aggressive ships so long as my job is getting done (maybe not the way someone else wants but done nonetheless) I don't need and don't want someone else to jump in and do it for me. I queued up because I want to play, not sit on the sidelines while someone else does everything, and if there's someone who's so proportionally overpowered for a scenario that they render the rest of the team useless then whats the point of even queuing? I've done the parsed DPS thing, got into the mid 20s pre-DR but decided I had more fun with piloting that does around 10 (since largely its about flying a particular way and gaming the UI anyways), but it also means that when someone shows up rolling 40+ I may as well just hang out in the spawn area and let them do it all. And personally, I'd rather fail the mission than have my participation rendered pointless.

    So rambling aside, its a question of people showing courtesy to one another. Some people may be loudmouth egomaniacs, but they're not entirely wrong in asking that if someone isn't appropriately set up for Advanced then no don't mess with the gameplay of someone who is. And vice versa, if upgunned to seal-clubbing levels then don't go pugstomping on Normal and ruining the gameplay of the people there either. Do Unto Others, Wheaton's Law, and all that right? I mean how much nicer would MMOs actually be if people followed that rule?
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    Good manners are good manners, and isn't that what this thread is asking for, for people to have the courtesy that if you're inappropriately equipped for something then to not do it? If I'm running one of my ships that belongs in Advanced and I'm with someone who's struggling, so long as they're at least doing the bare minimum I'll help with heals and debuffs but I'm not going to take over and do their job for them; its theirs to do. Likewise if I'm in some of my not-so-aggressive ships so long as my job is getting done (maybe not the way someone else wants but done nonetheless) I don't need and don't want someone else to jump in and do it for me. I queued up because I want to play, not sit on the sidelines while someone else does everything, and if there's someone who's so proportionally overpowered for a scenario that they render the rest of the team useless then whats the point of even queuing? I've done the parsed DPS thing, got into the mid 20s pre-DR but decided I had more fun with piloting that does around 10 (since largely its about flying a particular way and gaming the UI anyways), but it also means that when someone shows up rolling 40+ I may as well just hang out in the spawn area and let them do it all. And personally, I'd rather fail the mission than have my participation rendered pointless.

    So rambling aside, its a question of people showing courtesy to one another. Some people may be loudmouth egomaniacs, but they're not entirely wrong in asking that if someone isn't appropriately set up for Advanced then no don't mess with the gameplay of someone who is. And vice versa, if upgunned to seal-clubbing levels then don't go pugstomping on Normal and ruining the gameplay of the people there either. Do Unto Others, Wheaton's Law, and all that right? I mean how much nicer would MMOs actually be if people followed that rule?

    I did propose a PvP Boot Camp style solution to help get people on the right track, as well as point out how hostile people are being towards people who are trying to get new gear... only to get borderline attacked or brushed asside in favor of "Banning" people outright for "playing beyond their level" sort of things. So I think the problem is not with just the lower geared people trying to get sets or not knowing what to do, but with the higher end of the spectrum as well for fostering a toxic mentality to the point of outright discrimination. Instead of offering useable advice, some people just resort to "Learn2Play" insults.

    So... if things are going to change... it can't just be "improving DPS". Its gotta be a full on mentality shift to a more positive, helpful to others thing. Not likely to happen.

    I admit I cringe a bit when I see more than one energy type on a single ship (Not counting kinetic of course), but I tend to attribute that to that's all they could afford at the time. I know when I was first leveling I mixed damage types because I couldn't find anything I could afford at the time to sync up. It was just which guns provided equivelent damage output. But right now STFs are a total shot in the dark. No tutorial, just jump into the deep end.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Which unfortunately in this instance is rather toxic due to the DPS mentality, and kinda more of a slap in the face than anything positive and doesn't solve the issue.

    In this game, right now better performance = more deeps. What can get the most deeps? Aux2Batt builds and Tacs flying Escorts. Generally a Sci in a Science ship is going to suffer. Heck... sciences ships in general will suffer.

    "Why am I not getting good results?"
    "lol 'cuz yous weak Sci loser! Go Roll a Tac!"

    The closest we have to the performance reward system is Crystaline Entity. And it really only pays out for people who can DPS or Heal like crazy. However that is the ONLY fleet action I know of that does reward for something besides DPS.
    You get a couple DPS chasers or a dedicated heal boat into a CE... the average player might as well not bother because they won't get a reward because of their "performance".

    Sorry. Playing a non-tac doesnt make you incapable of doing the minimal DPS. What will make you lower DPS isnt being a tac, eng or sci nor having mk14 epic or mk 12, nor whether you are a casual player or not, it is the player's competency. It is the only difference that matters.

    The same way with healing and crowd control. It will only matter if you finish the mission and you CC and heal at the right time.

    What I do agree is that players do not remain incompetent forever. Players will improve one way or another. So any permanent restriction shouldnt be allowed.

    What is an average player? The publicly available data is DPS table. 17k+ unique accounts ranging from 0 DPS to 160k+ DPS. The average mean is 9k+.

    The problem with definition of average and casual is you think it only defines players that are incompetent. But they do not. You have average players and casual players who go beyond the average mean of DPS, healing or can CC the ISA before the advance nerf.

    The problem isnt the average player nor the casual player, the problem has always been players who belong at Normal but demands their level of skill be able to complete advance by not improving self/group. This means spoiled, self entitled players.
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    Why even bother calling the thread "under 5k dps, stay out of advanced"? Why not just have a "Ban all nOObs" thread?

    The level of toxicity and malice against people who stretch themselves and try new games and levels is sickening. Give the rest of the players a chance to learn from the mistakes instead of trolling and flaming them to oblivion. Until the DPS club buys the company and decide to shut the rest of us out, there is always a chance to fail. There are people who do learn from our mistakes, but not if we are constantly damned.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    edited June 2015
    paxdawn wrote: »
    The problem isnt the average player nor the casual player, the problem has always been players who belong at Normal but demands their level of skill be able to complete advance by not improving self/group. This means spoiled, self entitled players.

    The problem is more than that actually. And the problem is... how do you guage preparedness if you're not running a parser, working on a budget, or have no access to some resources?

    So far I've seen people in this thread go so far as to ask for outright bans on players who "don't perform". Frankly its talk like that that pisses me off. They seem to forget that they used to be in that boat once upon a time themselves. They want to lock down advanced behind an arbitrary number that most people can't calculate on their own because either A: They don't frequent the forums, B: Don't know what a parser is or where to find one, C: Has a playstyle that doesn't pertain to the Aux2Batt or DPS chaser, or D : doesn't have the resources at the time to fully prep a ship.

    The DPS mentality has been allowed to continue because Cryptic saw how hard people were hitting and decided to "level the playing field" by making NPCs into HP Sponges instead of giving them more abilities to play with. Instead of having us figure out how to counter things, its turned into "How fast can we kill it", and we're just seeing the same thing that brought up the HP sponges in the first place, a DPS race. The only NPC types that seem to make people think are the Tholians, Voth, and Vaadwaur. The Heralds seem to do a little bit, but its still pretty much "Kill as fast as you can so they don't science you" sort of thing.

    You speak of entitlement. It kinda goes both ways. The Elitists are demanding punishment, which would dang near purge people who don't fit their percieved level of competency, while on the other end there are some who just don't have chat open to get advice because they've been slammed so many times they feel that everyone will bash them no matter what. And I'm seeing a lot of bashing being dished out here. Where does it stop? Fixing one side does not fix the other. If you want people to improve, we gotta get the people who don't need it to be more open to helping people improve.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • paxdawnpaxdawn Member Posts: 767 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The problem is more than that actually. And the problem is... how do you guage preparedness if you're not running a parser, working on a budget, or have no access to some resources?

    So far I've seen people in this thread go so far as to ask for outright bans on players who "don't perform". Frankly its talk like that that pisses me off. They seem to forget that they used to be in that boat once upon a time themselves. They want to lock down advanced behind an arbitrary number that most people can't calculate on their own because either A: They don't frequent the forums, B: Don't know what a parser is or where to find one, C: Has a playstyle that doesn't pertain to the Aux2Batt or DPS chaser, or D : doesn't have the resources at the time to fully prep a ship.

    A player who whines and complains at the forums has more enough time to improve self to do advance pre nerf levels. Being in forum doesn't equate competency. Time is a lousy excuse for some player who's demands to complete advance. There a lot of competent players, average players who spend less time than players who demand to be in advance and still find a way to improve. It is by choice these players fail or group with players who don't know what they are doing.

    This is the second time you said stuff about geaR. Which is total nonsense. Success in this game is not tied to top tier gears. All the gears needed to complete advance can be taken from random loot or stuff at normal. The only time that quality gears are necessary is if your competing for 160k or above dps which is not the discussion about.
    The DPS mentality has been allowed to continue because Cryptic saw how hard people were hitting and decided to "level the playing field" by making NPCs into HP Sponges instead of giving them more abilities to play with. Instead of having us figure out how to counter things, its turned into "How fast can we kill it", and we're just seeing the same thing that brought up the HP sponges in the first place, a DPS race. The only NPC types that seem to make people think are the Tholians, Voth, and Vaadwaur. The Heralds seem to do a little bit, but its still pretty much "Kill as fast as you can so they don't science you" sort of thing.

    It is pretty much become a faster run if you have achieved the optimal levels.if a player hasn't reached optimal levels, it is a learning curve, normal-advance-elite. parsing Dps is a product of multiple stuff including healing, tanking, etc. you won't be able save the recorded parse if you don't do all the other stuff.

    but we are not talking about optimal levels, we are talking about advance player level, 7-9k Dps. Assuming equal distribution load for each player.
    You speak of entitlement. It kinda goes both ways. The Elitists are demanding punishment, which would dang near purge people who don't fit their percieved level of competency, while on the other end there are some who just don't have chat open to get advice because they've been slammed so many times they feel that everyone will bash them no matter what. And I'm seeing a lot of bashing being dished out here. Where does it stop? Fixing one side does not fix the other. If you want people to improve, we gotta get the people who don't need it to be more open to helping people improve.

    if put it that way, elitism goes both ways as well. Players don't want to make an effort much like a king but deserve all the rewards they want is an elitist as well.

    There is no point of having different difficulty if every difficulty level is almost the same difficulty level. By your logic, Why not have them mail the rewards since everyone including those doing 0 Dps, 0heals and 0 of anything deserves the same rewards of those who carried the team.

    There a lot of ways players to improve. Except like I keep saying, the problem are players who refuse to improve. Because those who are willing to improve have the resources for improvement right now. It is by personal choice that they don't improve. the thing you are complaining is that advance tutorial needs to be spoonfed as well. Because the game does give tutorial for basics sort of except enough for normal difficulty. However it doesn't give advance tutorial. But it is advance difficulty, why would it need tutorial in game when the experts who have done it thousands of times are not the devs but the players themselves.

    Another example pre advance nerf, problem being basic comprehension. It is clearly stated in pre nerf that you must prevent healing of the transformer. But they think this mandatory is optional. The same can be said of GGa of killing no a outside th shipyard and star base. How can cryptic make tutorials for reading/English comprehension?
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Been playing more than three years now, still refuse to parse my DPS, and I instantly add anyone who posts a DPS parse in chat to my ignore list.

    I don’t record my DPS either because I find too much of it too circumstantial to be an accurate description about game performance.

    Who saved the match in ISA? The 75k scimi dude FAWing up the nanites early with is 300 mil build or the 5k casually smashing a grav well in the incoming flock at the right time?

    On ground it’s even more tricky. Who did better in BOSE? The one on top of the DPS chart with a hurry to activate center devises or me as the idiot who saved honour guard, fire team, targs & the orion in one run all by myself coming out last on board?


    I always found the info on the DPS charts at least interesting though, especially when it comes to gear and ship setups so I would not refuse it either in such a fashion. Since we run the same dozen maps cryptic gives us anyway all the time such tools are simply helpful.

    P.S. Thanks a lot everybody for uploading my performance by the way. Somehow I got an invite to Silver & 30k over the weekend. I doubt I use it more often than Bronze, 10k, G-200, G-400 & Ground Elite. Gosh! All I want is an endless queue list full of bad players with me in the middle of it. As if we wouldn’t set the difficulty by our self all the time. ISA in 10k, 30k, 50k, 75k?

    Meep, if I want to bring it easy I hit Risa!
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  • guljarolguljarol Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    paxdawn wrote: »
    I dont understand why should a normal skilled player be able complete to advance. Why does a player deserve such rewards? These players dont deserve to complete advance. There are not losing at anything by not completing advance much like they dont lose anything by not completing elite. They can still play the same mission in Normal.

    Like this current event. A player having only 1 Lolhnut voucher but demanding they should get Nandi warship which requires 1000 vouchers because that particular player refuses to get 1000 vouchers. It is the same with Normal skilled players demanding they deserve to complete advance.

    I am totally against low efforts equal rewards. A higher effort player should get better rewards. The worst thing they should do is place back the Advance difficulty before the nerf.

    I'm sorry but I don't see any "normal" player demanding to complete Advanced or Elite in this thread for doing nothing or little to nothing. I see a few high DPS players telling other people to FO - or even perma ban them! - unless they meet certain DSP requirement.

  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    guljarol wrote: »

    I'm sorry but I don't see any "normal" player demanding to complete Advanced or Elite in this thread for doing nothing or little to nothing. I see a few high DPS players telling other people to FO - or even perma ban them! - unless they meet certain DSP requirement.

    Don’t worry too much here. Not everybody among the DPS crowds acts in such a way. I found especially the peeps in the metal channels very helpful. Even the top brand like Ryan or Fel never seem to act in such a way to my knowledge. On those few runs I made with them I got much info out and all mistakes I probably made were quickly forgiven.

    All in all I look forward to the incoming PvE advanced change this week. True it will attract a lot of bad players back to the queues but at the same time a lot of good ones as well. Take me, I have no clue if I’m good or bad or whatsoever but I have the habbit of getting a lot done after 3 years in STO. I only know that I want a match to be challenging. In a queued pug I get that and in a DPS premade I never do. I take a good bet that there are a lot of folks around which only took the DPS channels seriously because of the fails. They may have been bothered by bad players when they are in a position to sabotage an entire match but are unlikely to bother with a dozen DPS channel calls on the other hand when a bad pug would cost them a few marks most…

    In my opinion the only DPS check a player should do for advanced is to see if one struggles with a kasa probestream on his own. If not one is good enough for advanced STO contend, so queue up!
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  • guljarolguljarol Member Posts: 979 Arc User
    I'm not really worried. :) So far I haven't personally encountered any hostile people in the game. But then, I also didn't get myself into anything above Normal, because I know I couldn't pull it off (yet, hopefully ;)). I also noticed that some in this very thread are ready to offer help and advice. :)

    And I DO understand the frustration of people, who can complete Adv and E, but some clueless bum ruins it for them. It's just some people take it a bit too far, though.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    I don’t record my DPS either because I find too much of it too circumstantial to be an accurate description about game performance.

    Who saved the match in ISA? The 75k scimi dude FAWing up the nanites early with is 300 mil build or the 5k casually smashing a grav well in the incoming flock at the right time?

    Er...admittedly I've got no idea what CLR looks at this point...but if you uploaded a parse and it was a case of looking at it back at the end of May/start of June; it would be pretty easy to figure out.

    Starting with the Scimdude, yeah? Would be a case of going to the Kills tab from the Overview. You've got the timestamps for when entities were destroyed. You can see how much time passed between the first and fourth Generators going down...whether it was a few seconds or if it was twenty seconds or more. From there, one could show NPCs, hit up the particular Transformer (you can tell which was left and right based on the timestamp on the Kills tab), and look at the Damage From tab.

    With the GW Guy, it gets a little more complicated and gets into looking at the actual combatlog.log in something like Notepad++ or the like. You pull that up, do a search for the Gravity Well, and take a look at when it first hit the Nanite Spheres. You can then compare that time with the time from the destruction of the Generators leading into the Transformer.

    But why limit it to those two guys, what about the other three? How soon did the fourth Gen drop after the first? Who had the kill shot on it? How much damage did the Scimdude do to the other three Gens? All that information would be there. Could have been Player C that dropped that fourth Gen pretty quick after Scimdude dropped the first, second, and third. Then the combined efforts of Scimdude and the guys other than GW Guy took care of business, while GW Guy was basically doing nothing - doing worse than nothing - wasting that GW that could have been used for some clump 'n thump action after the Transformer went down instead of having to deal with the Nanites spreading out.

    Can tell the Tac from the Eng from the Sci...use of Miracle Worker or Photonic Fleet. Means one can take a look at the damage done to that Transformer, comparing the Damage and BaseDamage to get an idea of the debuffing that might have been going on. Can look at the attacks used, certain attacks applying debuffs even though things like FoMM, Sensor Scan, APB, Disruptor procs, are not written to the log...to see things that might have helped in the process there.

    Lots of folks only see the basic information of how long the run took, how much damage was done, and the DPS was done - no idea of the sheer amount of information available from the log. Was Scimdude about to go down in flames, meaning the major source of DPS was going to vanish, leading to too much time passing...but somebody dropped out some heals that kept Scimdude up? You can see that. There's just so much information available there.

    With some experience running a particular instance, you could all but literally "watch" the run with just CLR and the log.

    Who was grabbing aggro - when were they grabbing aggro. Who was healing - was it just self-healing or were they tossing heals. Did somebody die - why did they die. The list goes on and on and on and on and on...for the information one could pull from a log and from a log with CLR.

    Heh, now should even the Advanced player be expected to open the combatlog.log in Notepad++ and be able to read through the lines to have an idea of what the Shield Hardness/Damage Reduction or the Damage Resistance was at any given moment - to look at the amount of debuffing in play on a target - to look at the likely buffs that were in play based on the variance in damage taking place - and oh so many other things?

    Course not...that's well beyond what one would likely expect from an Advanced or even an Elite player...

    ...but that doesn't mean the information is not there.

    So saying that one doesn't parse because it doesn't provide useful information...doesn't provide a clear picture...well, that's just what it is...wrong.

    Even just flipping through various tabs and looking at the information CLR provided without popping the log itself open...offers an awesome amount of information for review. Cause although it's good to try to pay attention to what's going on with the run, outside of recording it (and even with recording it) - it's going to be the most Elite of Elite players that's actually able to pay attention to everything that was going on and recall when it happened.

    * * * * *

    Players that say they don't parse cause they don't care about DPS or they just don't care about DPS are some of the most irritatingly selfish trolls in the game. They often toss that out with an attack on other players as an excuse to offer some obfuscation of their selfish trolling habits. Let's take a look at two fictional players that care about DPS, eh?

    Tom cares about DPS. Tom wants not only to push his limits, but he wants to push the bounds of what's being done in the game. He's min/maxing left, right, and center. He's out there running with other link-minded folks. It's fun for him, so awesome for him and those like him.

    Jerry cares about DPS. Jerry doesn't care about pushing any boundaries. Jerry's not looking to min/max much of anything. Jerry just knows that there are four other folks on the team that likely want to have a fair shot at possibly having a successful run. Jerry's not giving any thought to doing 100k, 50k, 30k, 20k, or even 10k. He cares about doing enough DPS in combination with anything else he's bringing to the run to be a contributing member of the team so that the group has that fair chance at a successful run.

    Both care about DPS. Both care differently about DPS.

    Somebody saying they don't care about DPS is telling everybody they don't care about the other four folks on the team. They're telling folks that they're putting themselves ahead of the group and they don't care if they TRIBBLE the group over. Cause it's all about themselves...

    ...and inevitably, they end up attacking Jerry as if he were Tom - though Tom was off doing his thing and doesn't even know the folks selfishly trolling the queues are there - until he sees them complaining about him. So he has his lolwut moment. Jerry's not talking about DPS like Tom would, so he has his wtf moment. Then just like the troll the queues, those folks will troll both Tom and Jerry on the forums - trying to shift the focus of the problem from themselves to Tom and Jerry, and likely getting Tom and Jerry to say things that will support the image the person is trying to paint of those folks...so they can carry on trolling the queues while blaming folks like Tom and Jerry.

    It's just mind-boggling at times.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    There's a lot of bigotry in this thread. Stop it.

    Complaining or being unhappy with DPS as a convention is popular and sometimes even warranted. Not this time. There clearly is a team minimum DPS requirement for some events. It's built into the game by the developers. They are of the hard and soft types. Some it's GG you lose, some it's GG you get whatever you get. Some of the DPS requirements can be mitigated by control. Essentially expanding the time available to do the damage required.

    I'm not going to quibble here over whether or not Gravity Well is also a damage multiplier as it groups targets for blah blah blah as opposed to Repulsors or Warp Plasma blah blah blah...I'm not going to mention that Evasive Maneuvers has a DPS value. Or that points in battery skill does.

    Because that's a lot more work than we really need to do. You can if you want! It's math. Enjoy. But we've all seen instances fail with and without Gravity Well, etc., because there just isn't enough properly applied damage.

    I'm not saying or agreeing that 5k is the proper requirement. THAT would be arbitrary. You could actually figure it out if you know, you like math. I think that someone actually did do that at one point. If someone is actually claiming 5k is the correct figure, bring on the proof. Actual math. Not 'my experience is'.

    That being said my last 20 parses in the same MK XII rare quality gear (Tier 5 ship) all fell between 4k and 10k. Typically I was in the top half of the DPS. Exception? The 10k run. Dead last. Why? because the other four guys were tactical, rotating team buffs and beta. And stripping off shields before my torpedoes landed. And I gained a huge boost from that. In general the ship runs 4k, is shot at most often, is missed most often, takes the least damage when it does get hit, fires the least times, does the most damage per shot, and dies the least.

    That's a well built ship. And it's all blue. Tier 5. And essentially satisfies the requirements of this thread. So the material required for this is something anyone can get. And I did it so a monkey can do it. VIRUS could do it.

    It's that easy. Anyway I think all the rational people that are actually contributing in here realize it's just a knowledge gap for those that want to progress. If a person truly believes that the social gating is too harsh and keeps players away from the knowledge, step up and provide a solution, then execute it. I don't mean kill your solution. I mean do it.
    Just know that social gating is there for a reason. Sometimes beneficial, sometimes not.
    1. Everyone agrees that some measure of DPS is needed.
    2. It's factual that you could actually calculate the team DPS/CC requirement, if you really wanted to.
    3. Everyone agrees that working as a team will trump all else AFTER the minimum DPS/CC is met.
    4. Everyone agrees that NOT working as a team will most often fail an event. The closer the team is to minimum the faster that fail will occur.
    5. Everyone agrees that education is one way to advance players beyond minimum/solo play to median/team play.

    So beyond that the only real discussion is the social gating. Is that the bottom line that we need an Academy? To essentially codify all the knowledge we have spread over the internet and make it available in a structured setting? Away from the harsh words (and I admit freely that this is a problem) of Advanced ques?

    Batter up!
  • jbmonroejbmonroe Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    OP:
    1. Private instances or public with fleet members only.
    2. I shall gladly send you a new keyboard with a working shift key.
    3. It's a game. It's a game. It's a game. Keep repeating that until you get it.

    I don't parse my results. Like azrael605, I block anyone (except one of my fleet co-admirals) who parses a mission. (I'm an STO lifer, and have been since day one.) Once it became apparent that DPS is now the Church of DPS, I lost interest in pursuing it, because it takes what should be entertainment and turns it into an exercise in chartered accountancy. (Yes, I realize that there are some people that find accountancy entertaining. I don't associate with them. They tend to be monotonic and a bit dull to be around.)

    Once in Earth & Beyond I endured a harangue from another player who told me I shouldn't be playing the game if I hadn't built a Markov Chain model of the galaxy so that I could get the highest profits while trading. I thanked him for his observations (I seem to recall that the second word in the "thank you" was actually "off") and went about my business. I can't say that it's related in any way, but Earth & Beyond stopped being a thing in 2004.

    I understand that there's an argument that says "I've spent all this time perfecting my DPS build so I can automatically win and it's not fair that these other people come in and make my efforts a waste of time," but if you're playing STO, you are by definition wasting time. (If you have a copy of the Fairness Contract, I'd love to review it. Those things are ultra-rare.) The complaint, as near as I can fathom it, is that the OP and his fellow high priests in the Church of DPS is that they're not able to waste time efficiently enough.

    Really? That's a thing? As First World problems go, that's pretty adorable.

    I see that one of the high priests has shown using arithmetic logic that certain STFs can't be completed without a particular availability of DPS, and I agree in principle that it's so. My argument back to both the OP and the high priest is recommendation (1) from above: only play in STFs fully populated by your fleet, or in private instances containing only the faithful from the Church of DPS. If you can't put one of those together, then wait until you can. It's the mature response. (In case that's unclear: the mature response is understanding that you can't always get what you want exactly when you want it. It's supposed to be one of those things parents teach their children--but perhaps I'm a bit old-school in that regard, having been raised that way, and having raised my own children that way.)

    If you find you just can't wait to run the STF (because--apparently--you won't be able to make the rent or mortgage payment, or afford food, until you complete the STF for the eighty-thousandth time) then accept that one consequence of going into an advanced STF with Joe Normal and his kin on the team is that you might not complete the STF. Stuff happens--sometimes repeatedly. Get over it.


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  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    jbmonroe wrote: »
    OP:

    I see that one of the high priests has shown using arithmetic logic that certain STFs can't be completed without a particular availability of DPS, and I agree in principle that it's so.

    You're writing above your pay grade. Stop it. Your name calling. That's juvenile. Stop that too.

    You can't agree 'in principle' with a fact and then disregard the fact to suit your world view. I agree that people behave like jerks. I also ignore anyone that links a parse after a run. I'm not interested.

    I AM interested in that anyone that shows up to my softball league has the proper gear and knows the game.
    I AM interested in that anyone that shows up to my bowling league has the proper gear and knows the game.

    Do not be so foolish as to dismiss online gaming as a 'waste of time'. It is entirely as valid a 'waste of time' as those two IRL examples. You're making a wide sweeping value judgement for everyone and you aren't qualified to do so.

    You can not like peoples behavior all you want. You can ignore them all you want. And that's fine and expected. What you can't do is paint a coat of your beliefs over everyone else and expect it to stick.

    It has never been a widespread belief that requiring participants to be prepared for an event is an excessive burden.

    Never, in the history of events, has this happened.

    So if you're saying you would tolerate lack of preparation in your daily brick and mortar life, say so. Because life is life wherever you experience it. And fifteen minutes is fifteen minutes. So asking everyone that participates in that fifteen minutes with you to actually be prepared to participate really isn't out of line. It's normal and expected behavior. YOU do it every day, why would you expect others to be different? To suit you?

    Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, Pot.



  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    thissler wrote: »
    1. Everyone agrees that some measure of DPS is needed.
    2. It's factual that you could actually calculate the team DPS/CC requirement, if you really wanted to.
    3. Everyone agrees that working as a team will trump all else AFTER the minimum DPS/CC is met.
    4. Everyone agrees that NOT working as a team will most often fail an event. The closer the team is to minimum the faster that fail will occur.
    5. Everyone agrees that education is one way to advance players beyond minimum/solo play to median/team play.

    /cough
    thissler wrote: »
    Batter up!

    If those five things were true, then there would not be all of these discussions year after year after year after year.

    Just saying...la, la, la.

    * * * * *

    Regarding #2 though, heh, a "simple" one is preventing the Nanites from healing the Transformer.

    Transformer Health vs. Nanite Travel Time...you've got damage...you've got seconds...you've got...damage per second!

    It's not that simple!!! Somebody drops the first Generator early!!! You've got to take out the other three Generators as the Nanites have spawned!!!

    Transformer Health + Generator #2 Health + Generator #3 Health + Generator #4 Health vs. Nanite Travel Time...damage...seconds...damage per second!!!

    It's not that simple!!! Somebody drops out a Gravity Well, Ejects Warp Plasma, grabs or pushes with Tractor Beam Repulsors away, or whatever the case may be!!!

    Transformer Health + Generator #2 Health + Generator #3 Health + Generator #4 Health vs. Modified Nanite Travel Time...damage...seconds...damage per second!!!

    Damage/Time...DPS...whatever way one works it, whether one has to also take out some Generators, whether one is buying time with some CC, or whether both are involved...in the end, it's a simple DPS objective.

    But, but, but, but, but...but, Virus! That shows that it's variable and not a requirement at all! You could have four folks dropping CC, working as a highly coordinated team, not caring about the 15 minute Optional, and then the DPS requirement to take out the Transformer and Generators would be way low, yeah????

    Uh, sure...as long as one realizes they've set the requirement for ISA that it include four highly coordinated folks dropping out CC.

    Even if somebody brings their own CC stuff to every run, guaranteeing that there is some CC there, that doesn't guarantee that there's any CC in any of the other runs. Sure, the might end up with 90% or better success with their runs because of it...other folks might be lucky to see 25%.

    It's why almost everything out there can be broken down to a simple DPS calculation. Want to take out three Dreads in a given amount of time? Health/Damage...Time...DPS. Want to take out those three Dreads within a certain period of time of one another? Health/Damage...Time...DPS. Need to destroy some NPCs before they reach a destination - wait, that's just like ISA.

    Most of it is pretty straightforward...

    Deplete X health before Y time elapses to get Z damage per second.

    Can CC in many cases help out with that...make it easier? Yeah, but so could having even more and more DPS. Cause that's getting into the range of optional stuff...stuff that can make the run smoother. But unless some prerequisite is put in place that CC has to be there, it becomes a case of just condemning folks to the RNG of whatever group they get. A group with no CC, but without the DPS...fails. A group with superfluous CC that becomes inefficient and lacks the DPS...fails.

    * * * * *

    Adam, Betty, Chuck, Dot, and Ed decide they're going to have dinner. One's going to bring an appetizer, one an entree, one some side dishes, one dessert, and one drinks. Chuck shows up with a single twin package of Twinkies...but he's brought some extra napkins in case they're needed.

    How are folks going to look at Chuck? If he'd brought an actual dessert for everybody and those extra napkins, how would they have looked at Chuck instead, yeah?

    It's that simple.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    It's just mind-boggling at times.

    Yea that’s all very fascinating and I’d probably stick my head into it in my next gaming live.

    Here is what happened to me in a similar ISA match.

    CLR - Infected Space [3:09] DMG (DPS)

    High Scorer@ Scimi_Dude 14.320.094 (77.827) Rockstar@warship 7.572.017(40.046) Zarlotte@peterconnorfirst 5.616.629 (30.035) Heck@I_dont_remember 5.288.644 (28.743) Are all Germans Evil?@Recluse_Nanni 3.933.012 (21.260)

    I screensaved the numbers as I got em presented in chat because I turned out to be surprised to make 30k in my sci ship on my sci toon. Run was a bit faster than I’m used to in pugs

    First reformer went well. Second one did’t as planed. As usually one player grabbed too much aggro while on cube/nanite destruction phase and poping in our faces while bringing the team in a position where it suddenly has to deal with the situation at a fraction of the available DPS. I don’t recall what was going on with the others or if they weren’t there in time, laged or simply had too many abilities on cd. I just know one thing: I was glad to be on sci toon Zarlotte to grav well the incoming flock or otherwise it would have meant game over even in such a good group.

    It’s the same picture I seem to get in at least 2 out of 5 ISA matches even if they are a lot slower and teams are weaker…

    Perhaps it’s a question of DPS spoiling or it’s generally unwise to mix it at a too large span within a team. Like I say, I don’t care that much for it but Zarlotte is my ISA girl from now on while my "scimi dude" char rather stays at home. I seem to need a grav well on almost every second run I make. Much more often when I spot a scimi dude in team than on a fleet run where people only do fraction of his DMG but therefore remember the 10% rule and follow it.

    Edit: Nandi looks ISA cool! :)
    A group with superfluous CC that becomes inefficient and lacks the DPS...fails.

    Don’t want to nickpick but I think most critters still get stunned by Tractor Beam Repulsors. If a friend of mine forces the issue I'm pretty sure he can CC incoming spheres indefinitely.
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    meh double post. Vanilla is not my taste...

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  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    azrael605 wrote: »
    Been playing more than three years now, still refuse to parse my DPS, and I instantly add anyone who posts a DPS parse in chat to my ignore list.

    Here, I'll save you the trouble and let you get it done early.

    @smokeybacon90
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  • dareaudareau Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    It's not hard to pull 10k+ DPS on any character. Literally having all mk xii damage consoles and weapons of the appropriate types will do it.

    Science Captain (so no GDF & APA). Pathfinder or Vesta, your pick. Try your best to do so with only "common" mission / C-store / cheapish on exchange stuffs. Make it "semi canon" with a Torp fore and aft, if at all possible. Maybe a rep or two as well, since they're not terribly hard to dredge up to T5.

    Cause if "appropriate consoles" equals full racks of +plasma proc embassy science consoles, and antiproton vulnerability locators to go with the "appropriate weapons" of 3xCritD Antiproton DBBs fore with a tail of KCB/Ancient Omni/Crafted AP Omni, well, that's not "everyone and easy"...

    Meanwhile, on the topic of "5k or no advanced for you", let me tell you something. I have with regularity taken a Vesta, 2xAuxDHCs & appropriate torp (usually Romulan Hyper or Gravimetric) fore, KCB/Ancient Omni/Omega Torp (3 piece Omega Weapons) aft, wasted time running CC on nanites, kept danubes parked on recall or missed their deaths, and still posted 5k by keeping up with the group and only being maybe a step behind (or on respawn from dong stupid things like not evasiving away from the regular spheres guarding the nanites or watching them ambush me when the transformer pops cause I parked-and-shot the transformer as soon as I got into a decent range bracket).

    Therefore, my extremely expert at low end DPS opinions tell me that the majority of sub-5k parses are generated from only one "true" source. Trolling the mission. To wit:
    Even a rainbow/skittle mix on a cruiser could probably spit out 5k, with 125+/100 weapons power, if it was in the engagement(s) from start of shooting till the end. Therefore, said cheap ship would have to "cut down" to like 25/50 base weapons power "for tanking" and forget all his offensive BOff powers, to be a 1k-2k ship.
    Piloting skills of a dead rock hurt DPS. Now, if my Vesta can "keep up" with the average hyper-DPS team on 48/25 hyper engines (which are dirt slow below 50 power) - mainly through the "appropriate" use of evasives & full impulse - Honestly, it takes close to 50k DPS on the cube and the gateway popping me into red alert (to kill my full impulse) for me to miss out 100% on shooting the cube, then it takes some "real poor" piloting (or intentional delaying) to not be in combat "from start of engagement till the end".
    AFK-itis causing player to "game the boot timer"...
    Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...

    To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
  • e30erneste30ernest Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The problem is more than that actually. And the problem is... how do you guage preparedness if you're not running a parser, working on a budget, or have no access to some resources?

    And yet a lot of people are so against having an in-game parsing system, or getting parsed by other people. In fact, I am genuinely surprised at people outright ignoring people just because they posted a parse. I post parses when I can too. I do it because back when I was new and I did not know how to parse, I really appreciated it when people posted parses because it let me know if I was doing well or not.

    Maybe people who hate parses are simply afraid of seeing their real performance, or maybe they are simply assuming people that post parses are elitists who think they are higher than all. Personally, I just think they have too much pride to admit to themselves that they may not be as awesome as they think they are.

    Are these people afraid of perceived "elitism" from the DPS channels? Are they afraid of people calling each other out, insulting each other or simply hating on one another? I've never had anyone in the DPS channels throw anything derogatory at me even if I fudged up a run. However, I've seen more than a few people with sub-par DPS in an advanced queue insulting other players, calling them names and generally ranting in team chat when a queue fails. In fact, almost every week, I run into someone doing less than 5k DPS (some even as low as 1-2kDPS) calling other players idiots in a failed ISA run. It's been months since I've seen someone doing over 10k DPS say anything bad in team chat.

    And on the topic, I love PUGging even when it fails. I do not mind it when a low-DPS person comes into the group. To me, that is part of the fun since it mixes things up and you have to change your strategy to compensate. This is part of the reason why I am unhappy they are removing mission failures from advanced. The possibility of failure adds urgency to the run and makes PUGging more enjoyable to me. With the option of failure gone, people will just likely come in and roll through the mission without caring about doing it properly the way ANRA is now.

    While I agree there should be an in-game feature that will allow you to measure your ship's performance, I do not agree that instances should be gated according to DPS. If Cryptic decides to gate queues, then maybe adding missions that players should accomplish solo before allowing them into advanced and elite queues (something that'll add to the queue's storyline) would be a better option rather than a straight-out DPS number.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    guljarol wrote: »

    I'm sorry but I don't see any "normal" player demanding to complete Advanced or Elite in this thread for doing nothing or little to nothing. I see a few high DPS players telling other people to FO - or even perma ban them! - unless they meet certain DSP requirement.

    Glad I'm not the only one seeing the stupidity that's come up in this thread. Playing Public Defender against people like that is wearing me out.

    And I honestly do feel strongly that the answer is NOT punishment for not meeting a percieved standard. Its encouragement and advice on how to improve. But we get the behavior of "DPS or GTFO" and "Learn2Play n00b"... and people will not WANT to accept advice because they've been blasted so many times for just trying.

    Still think a community driven STF Boot Camp thing like when they did the PvP Boot Camp can help. We need positive reinforcement. Not perma bans and vitriol.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • oldkhemaraaoldkhemaraa Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    Humm, well lets see.. why would I want to go do an elite STF or que.. umm.. for the crafting mats.. and the lols really.
    If I went I would do very well, I've gotta be up in the 15 to 20 k region at this point anyway. Any other rewards can be gotten with a great deal less time, and effort.

    The more I play STO the more I begin to feel the doing anything on Elite is not a great use of my gaming time.. Players who do them come in two flavors, undergeared or ridiculously over geared. So it's either not gonna be a great run, or you can take a nap while you go through the motions. If you stick with a premade group you shouldn't have any issues. If you go public que's you take your chances.

    Unprepared players, Griefer players, SFK'rs...they are all par for the course. If ya haven't realized it by now your not paying attention!

    Very very common in MMO's.. just slightly more so with STO due to the way the game is put together.

    "I aim to misbehave" - Malcolm Reynolds
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    guljarol wrote: »
    I'm sorry but I don't see any "normal" player demanding to complete Advanced or Elite in this thread for doing nothing or little to nothing. I see a few high DPS players telling other people to FO - or even perma ban them! - unless they meet certain DSP requirement.

    So the OP points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#2 points out that without an in-game meter, some folks will have no idea of their performance.
    Post#3 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#4 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#5 has another poster pointing out that without an in-game meter, some folks will have no idea of their performance.
    Post#6 has another poster pointing out the lack of an in-game meter.
    Post#7 suggest pugging is more challenging than premades.
    Post#8 has a poster agreeing with Post#7.
    Post#9 is somebody laughing at Post#4.
    Post#10 spread some misinformation about what goes on in channels.
    Post#11 has yet another poster pointing to the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#12 is wasted storage - trolling/flaming/yadda-yadda-yadda.
    Post#13 is Poster#4 demonstrating what Poster#9 had to say...I mean, lolwut?
    Post#14 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#15 has yet another poster pointing to the lack of an in-game meter.
    Post#16 is a bit of sarcasm.
    Post#17 is a complaint about the objectives being DPS based in the first place.
    Post#18 is yet another poster pointing to the lack of an in-game meter.
    Post#19 is a bit of sarcasm for Poster#16.
    Post#20 is a bit of sarcasm back at Poster#19.
    Post#21 is a combination of a potential misquote/reply and making excuses.
    Post#22 has yet another poster pointing to the lack of an in-game meter.
    Post#23 suggests a way for folks to find teams where they can see their DPS.
    Post#24 is a reply to Poster#23 pointing out various issues with that and reiterating the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#25 is yet another poster asking about the difficulty of having some in-game feedback.
    Post#26 is a reply to Poster#25 stating that Neverwinter already provides some of that feedback.
    Post#27 is another reply to Poster#25 pointing to scripts already existing for it.
    Post#28 is somebody else mocking Poster#4/13 with what Poster#9 had said.
    Post#29 is another request for there to be an in-game meter.
    Post#30 is another reply to Poster#25 saying it had been removed because folks felt outed.
    Post#31 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#32 is somebody offering Poster#31 a /facepalm.
    Post#33 is a reply to Poster#30 saying maybe that feedback should return for Advanced/Elite.
    Post#34 is more garbage from Poster#31.
    Post#35 adds some humor to the thread.
    Post#36 is more back 'n forth with Poster#31 from Poster#32.
    Post#37 is an attack on those asking for in-game feedback.
    Post#38 is more back 'n forth with Poster#32 from Poster#31.
    Post#39 is more back 'n forth with Poster#31 from Poster#32.
    Post#40 is more back 'n forth with Poster#32 from Poster#31.
    Post#41 is somebody trying to defuse Poster#31 and Poster#32.
    Post#42 is...er...a reply to Poster#41.
    Post#43 is more back 'n forth with Poster#31 from Poster#32.
    Post#44 points out that being nice to receptive folks can go a long way.
    Post #45 is more back 'n forth with Poster#32 from Poster#31.
    Post#46 is about an endeavor to help some KDF players (check it out if you've got a KDF toon that can help).
    Post#47 is somebody agreeing with Poster#32 about Poster#31 and others.
    Post#48 is yet another post about the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#49 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#50 questions the relevance of Post#49 in relation to the thread while pointing to the number of folks that have asked for in-game feedback.
    Post#51 has yet another post about the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#52 is full of misinformation.
    Post#53 is suggesting Cryptic does the gating.
    Post#54 offers a suggestion on how that gating could be done.
    Post#55 has Poster#53 saying how Post#54 wouldn't work.
    Post#56 is everybody's favorite anti-PvP troll.
    Post#57 has Poster#54 offering another suggestion on gating.
    Post#58 talks about STO being DPS Online.
    Post#59 is Poster#53 continuing the discussion with Poster#54.
    Post#60 is another post about the lack of in-game feedback and a link to a thread that...yeah, old forums...good luck.
    Post#61 says Post#60 is a good idea (guess it was the link that won't work).
    Post#62 mentions another game with gating.
    Post#63 is an attack reply on DPS to one quote and an attack reply on competence to another quote.
    Post#64 is somebody trying to organize some form of multifleet PvE bootcamp.
    Post#65 mentions the /facepalm of the DPS Drama.
    Post#66 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#67 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#68 offers some sarcasm.
    Post#69 asks about the difference between a skittles and rainbow build.
    Post#70 suggests there is no difference between skittles and rainbows.
    Post#71 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#72 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#73 corrects the difference between skittles and rainbows.
    Post#74 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#75 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#76 tries to make excuses.
    Post#77 is the OP mentioning how easy 5k would be and that they're not some uber DPS person themselves.
    Post#78 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#79 is another post about the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#80 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#81 is a combination of "points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth." and a wee bit of misinformation in regard to getting E-Marks.
    Post#82 tries to make excuses.
    Post#83 a request for folks to be more helpful.
    Post#84 questions what the threshold should be.
    Post#85 suggests being friendly.
    Post#86 somebody talking about putting in effort.
    Post#87 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#88 is...aha...the perma-ban post! Meh... /facepalm
    Post#89 suggests an internal meter and matchmaking.
    Post#90 is about the importance of skill as well as gear...simple truths and all.
    Post#91 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#92 curiously equates 1-2k DPS with <10k DPS.
    Post#93 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#94 talks about gating and how DPS is only part of it.
    Post#95 also talks about how DPS is only part of it...though...
    Post#96 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#97 flames Poster#88.
    Post#98 has another post about the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#99 points out how Poster#95 is off a bit and offers assistance to anybody looking for it.
    Post#100 offers a preference for predictability over DPS (but it's coming off as an either-or sort of thing when it's not).
    Post#101 is another post about the lack of in-game feedback.
    Post#102 is more about predictability, albeit not in the same way.
    Post#103 gets into upgrading and alts.
    Post#104 mentions Epic being cheaper on the Exchange than risking it via upgrades.
    Post#105 replies to Post#100 with how it comes off.
    Post#106 suggestion to junk the Samsar.
    Post#107 gets into the difficulty of judging preparedness.
    Post#108 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#109 is a reply to Post#107 discussing preparedness.
    Post#110 is selfish head in sand stuff.
    Post#111 is a lot of words that says nothing and contradicts itself.
    Post#112 is...er...another post about the lack of in-game feedback while criticizing what folks have done with feedback.
    Post#113 spreads the blame around all sorts of players and Cryptic too.
    Post#114 supports Post#111 for some reason. That post stated the obvious and then contradicts it. It said nothing. /shrug
    Post#115 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#116 is the OP saying they don't want the perma-ban thing mentioned in Post#88.
    Post#117 a combination of an over the top response to Post#88 and making excuses.
    Post#118 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#119 is flaming Poster#118.
    Post#120 mentions the missing Elite queues.
    Post#121 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#122 is really hung up on what Poster#88 said and it's showing in other replies as they make excuses.
    Post#123 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#124 brings up the point of scapegoating going on with the imaginary DPS boogeyman elitists.
    Post#125 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#126 you bring up folks are unfriendly - yet almost everybody but Poster#88 has offered help (outside of all the posts looking for an in-game meter and some feedback). The majority of the unfriendliness has come from the folks flaming the OP or running around talking about the elite DPS boogeyman.
    Post#127 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#128 is just misinformation and making excuses.
    Post#129 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#130 comments on the misinformation from Post#128.
    Post#131 questions the ease of an 8-10k build.
    Post#132 states they had a 12k VR12 Sci boat.
    Post#133 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#134 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#135 is yet another post about in-game feedback.
    Post#136 is a misunderstanding of what Poster#135 said.
    Post#137 is another poster posting about the ease of 10k.
    Post#138 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#139 is about top gating, keeping higher folks out of lower.
    Post#140 mentions that kind of thing has been discussed before by players, adding in a separation for how it would be handled between public and private queues.
    Post#141 is a curious post about whether folks would prefer quick 'n easy runs or not with higher folks running lowers.
    Post#142 ...somebody's drunk post...wheeeee!
    Post#143 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#144 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#145 is tedious flaming of Poster#144.
    Post#146 makes excuses.
    Post#147 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#148 asks for links to the 8-10k builds.
    Post#149 rants about DPS boogeymen elitists.
    Post#150 asks Poster#149 where they are.
    Post#151 agrees with Poster#149.
    Post#152 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#153 is still hung up on that Poster#88.
    Post#154 is just flaming/trolling the OP.
    Post#155 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#156 is a wee bit of misinformation about gearing requirements.
    Post#157 Vanilla Forums faux pas.
    Post#158 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#159 asks for equal rewards regardless of difficulty or performance.
    Post#160 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#161 another of those selfish head in the sand posts.
    Post#162 offers misinformation and DPS hatred.
    Post#163 talks about courtesy.
    Post#164 is an attempt to shift the blame.
    Post#165 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#166 is more DPS boogeyman ranting.
    Post#167 is more DPS boogeyman hatred.
    Post#168 points to a simple truth...probably ticks off some folks that don't want to read the truth.
    Post#169 questions the value of parsing.
    Post#170 is your post that I'm replying to with this post.

    I'm not going to continue on with the posts that came after it, cause your Post#170 there would have been for the previous 169 posts. And I've got to say...wtf? I mean...lolwut?

    Sure, Post#88 there was full of /facepalm with the perma-ban bit. Sure, Post#37 with it's odd attack on folks asking for in-game feedback is full of /facepalm too. But...

    ...where's meat of the issue in the thread? The folks flaming the OP, eh? The folks flaming various folks going through some PTSD moment over an imaginary DPS/Elitist boogeyman thing, yeah? Then there are the folks making all sorts of excuses, right? The folks simply spreading misinformation, meh...and it goes on and on.

    You remove those folks, and what is basically left?

    Simple truths like if something has X health and it has to be destroyed in Y time, then X/Y is the D/S...DPS.
    Folks talking about courtesy and being friendly.
    Folks talking about helping each other out.
    Folks talking about how in-game feedback would be helpful.

    Yeah, you remove the folks flaming the OP, flaming overs as they lash out at the boogeyman, those making excuses, those spreading misinformation, etc, etc, etc...

    ...and wow, damn if this thread wouldn't turn into a positive thread like magic.

    And guess what? It's like this with almost every thread on the topic...meh.

    edit: Which basically gets into, everything's been said before - Hell, it had been said before it was said last...same stuff over and over. Game was already uninstalled...guess this would be the hidden goodbye post. Have fun all.
    Post edited by virusdancer on
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