I wonder if in game parsing might be useful to get a more realistic picture of players in the game for Cryptic. I imagine they don't really know how much DPS the average PUG group actually does. I look at the timers on the newer queues and just roll my eyes after playing through them repeatedly. They seem very out of touch with reality.
GGA, for example, how often do PUG groups get the bonus timers? There are bad groups that don't deserve it, because they are a mess, and its all you can do to get out of it with as few deaths as possible. But then there are good groups that don't have the DPS for the timers but through good play make it a good run. Personally I rarely see the timer bonuses actually achieved.
The other day I ran a GGA with one of my alts, an engineer in a Sarr Theln with mostly mk 12 equipment. But I run it with a Grav Well and Tyken's Rift combo. This GGA I got into happened to have someone else doing the same thing. End result? Chaos was totally controlled. Probes and portals weren't a problem and all the ships stayed in nice neat bunches due to good timing of our wells, and a couple of times when the Dreadnaught jumped, it got yanked right back into the grav well it just left. At some points the adds were utterly shut down by the Tyken's rifts and other drains going on meaning their damage output was just a tickle if not zero. Probably the smoothest run I've had to date, but we simply couldn't meet the optional timers. We missed the Dreadnaught timer by a minute at least.
So because we didn't have the DPS to get the optionals, did that group not belong in advanced? That is clearly implied by Cryptic's timers and the new reward schemes, yet I can't imagine anything more ridiculous, given how easy the run was.
Quantitatively, you could say we were a weak group, yet qualitatively, nothing actually supports that. I wonder what Cryptic would actually see, looking at a parse of that group. What would anyone see? Not quite enough DPS or an incredibly easy run? Yet, if it was an easy run on advanced, why should we even bother with normal when that has even less challenge?
And that is another point to remember. The gap between normal and advanced is quite large. It is hard to say someone is ready for advanced just because they find normal easy.
Finally, the issue of helping players is a lot of talk and little action. Telling someone to google or search the forums for builds and information is not particularly helpful. Sure you can find builds that way, but what then? Few of them are not built on very expensive, fully upgraded fleet equipment. And how someone actually uses the build to get good DPS is certainly not something you find in the list of equipment on the ship, because let us be absolutely clear here, simply putting mk 12 equipment with matching consoles on your ship in no way guarantees good DPS. Most of the builds that I've seen are not aimed at newbies or people struggling at all, they are aimed at the elite that already have a good idea of how to use them and can afford them.
8k-10k dps is uber easy to obtain without needing mkxiv epic gear, super uber easy and, is about all that is needed to accomplish advanced missions also!
A bold claim. I'm not necessarily disputing it, just suggesting that it could be questionable. How about throwing up a build on STO Academy that is a "Guaranteed" uber easyAND cheap 10k build, hmmm?
..
I do agree however that 8-10k is all that's really required for each member of a pre-made, and can be enough if you get a "good" PuG. A couple of us sometimes PuG ISA just for laughs and the challenge. One of us will be in a recluse or nebula, throwing out heals, CC's and debuffs, the other will be a 20k~40k DPS boat.
Sometimes it's a clean fast run, because everyone knows the drill, and has the 'deeps'. But sometimes, the only thing saving the run is the two of us controlling spheres, and taking out generators. <shrug> But that's why we do it
I have thrown up a few but, there are dozens already there, just waiting for players to mimic. It's just many players, are still oblivious to using such helpful information, that is right at their fingertips. It's like they are searching the internet, without so much as a taskbar/search engine/search bar/etc... Guess how far that gets them? For some, it's not an issue but, for others it is until they learn and/or, are taught what they need know but, than you have those still aimlessly wandering around never figuring it out it seems!
The worst, are those who want the game constantly dwindled down, instead of them seeking to increase their own potential!!!
I'm not really worried. So far I haven't personally encountered any hostile people in the game. But then, I also didn't get myself into anything above Normal, because I know I couldn't pull it off (yet, hopefully ). I also noticed that some in this very thread are ready to offer help and advice.
And I DO understand the frustration of people, who can complete Adv and E, but some clueless bum ruins it for them. It's just some people take it a bit too far, though.
It's not really taking it a bit too far, when the people we complain about, has had a year or better to improve and, yet we find a large amount of them still not getting anywhere farther, than they were a year or longer ago.
And that is another point to remember. The gap between normal and advanced is quite large. It is hard to say someone is ready for advanced just because they find normal easy.
The gap isnt that large from normal to advance even before the nerf. The problem is the player who complains and their perspective. The other issue is the varied group especially true for Puggers. There is a possibility. that player got a better group in Normal than their advance. The second issue is the objective comprehension. Yes a player can kill, heal aggro but did those players even actually read what are the objectives? Look at the complaints of Fail optionals in these forums. How can someone finish advance if players dont even know what are the objectives what are the optionals?
If you want me to quantify look at the minimum requirements of normal, advance and elite. The gap of normal and advance is around 1-3k dps or around 1% of maximum potential. The gap between advance and elite is 40k+ dps or around 30-40% maximum potential.
Finally, the issue of helping players is a lot of talk and little action. Telling someone to google or search the forums for builds and information is not particularly helpful. Sure you can find builds that way, but what then? Few of them are not built on very expensive, fully upgraded fleet equipment. And how someone actually uses the build to get good DPS is certainly not something you find in the list of equipment on the ship, because let us be absolutely clear here, simply putting mk 12 equipment with matching consoles on your ship in no way guarantees good DPS. Most of the builds that I've seen are not aimed at newbies or people struggling at all, they are aimed at the elite that already have a good idea of how to use them and can afford them.
Majority of competency is based on piloting. Piloting cannot be taught by the devs. The experts in piloting are the players themselves. Builds and gears are just secondary to piloting. If you want me to quantify, 0-50k DPS is mostly piloting.
Gosh, so the damage output of his entire star ship exactly equals that of my lead space tac toon with millions of ec and dil for space traits and ship gear… when she is on ground.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
> @shadowwraith77 said: > http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/search.php > > You need only have looked here the whole time!
Reading through the nested quotes to put the request for links into context shows that they are aware of the Skill Planner, but are asking for particular examples.
Your snark is noted, care to make a more helpful contribution?
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
I deliberately kept out of this by my god, this entire thread warrants a facepalm so powerful it could shatter the Earth - This is a game, not life where theres constant arbitary limits (gender, race, parents wealth/class, luck among others) to how far you can go in life - so what if a low dps player jumps in an advanced? So you have to work harder or lose...big friggin' whoop; wait 30 minutes and redo it without them!
Feel free to grumble about them - Hell, I often do, but calling for bans and limits? Really? If someone underperforming in a bloody game is your only worry, enough to warrant this cesspool of a thread; I'd say you are doing extremely well
As others have said, if you pug, you are taking pot luck with your teamates - but more than that, you are engaging with others concepts of 'fun' - if they want to run all torp builds or run around with rainbows or run pure CC builds with 130 aux and a spit in weapons, or, heaven forbid ( ) a canon weapons loadout on a canon ship, so be it.
(Regarding underperforming in advanced stfs, they have their own penalties - the injury system - popping critical repairs every 5 minutes can cost a lot)
They want to have fun, just not -your- concept of fun that is victory at all costs, rather than doing things their way... the way they find fun - for that, I'd advise teaming up with other like minded people - even if it lowers the percieved 'quality' of pugs, at least everyone will be happy
..and isn't that the whole point of playing a game?
I'm an Arc user? Yeah, right..I'd rather eat a chainsaw, blade first
They want to have fun, just not -your- concept of fun that is victory at all costs, rather than doing things their way... the way they find fun - for that, I'd advise teaming up with other like minded people - even if it lowers the percieved 'quality' of pugs, at least everyone will be happy
..and isn't that the whole point of playing a game?
With regards to everyone being able to complete advance, the publicly available statistic is that there are players who literally parse 0 DPS, between 0 and 1k DPS. This is space by the way. There is no difference between one player doing 0 dps and them mailing to us the rewards directly or a mission with 5 players doing 0 dps and getting rewards for simply going inside the queue then leaving after a couple of mins.
Now is everyone happy with the current advance? Of course not because there are players who still do not complete public advance queue. The main difference now is that it was lowered to skill level of players who have spamming complains in the forums in different threads before. So in instead of pre nerf advance being able to complete at skill level 5, with 20 being elite, it is now at skill level 4, With normal being 1. You still have players who arent able to do from skill level 3 down to skill level 0.
Supporters advance nerf who suddenly vanished nowadays was a self serving way to get a subset of players to be able to complete advance without improving but leave the others who have lower skills than these complainants high and dry. Because if these same players are really "representing" communism for completing advance queue this should include everyone including the dead weights, players doing 0 DPS, trolls, leeches and still be spamming threads to nerf advance queues.
It's been pointed out several times, but I guess it's worth mentioning again because I notice a lot of people aren't paying attention: the OP is talking about 5k dps, not 50k. 5k entirely possible with a science toon in a science ship using cheap gear from the exchange. I had a sci toon who got an endgame ship a few months ago, I bought some cheap (as in less than 100K ec, total) gear, and parsed 14K in ISA.
Or, more simply: there are lots of carrier pets that now do more than 5k DPS. Fleet support will do more than 5K DPS. 5K is really small.
As always, the issue is that Cryptic provides no feedback, so the only way to tell if a build is good is to parse DPS (just running a mission won't help because 80% of the people there aren't you). And then some people who do that post a number like 5k, which might as well be 500k for players who have no idea what those numbers mean.
This debate would be over if Cryptic provided some easy, in-game way to test a ship's performance. I think that a lot of the "I hate DPS" people would change their tunes if they understood what the numbers mean and that 5k is really not that much at all.
Some specific responses:
1. Cryptic went DPS craaaaazy! Please explain how to create a combat game without a minimum DPS requirement. Any objective of the form "Destroy X objects with Y HP in Z time" will have a minimum damage per second requirement of X*Y/Z. Even if the game doesn't provide a time, you still have to destroy those objects faster than they can heal themselves... and faster than it takes to get completely bored.
The only way to avoid a DPS requirement is to create non-combat missions. Even the weakest NPCs will impose a minimum DPS requirement, and there will always be some players who don't meet that requirement. (At what point does an NPC become an "hp sponge"? Maybe you have an idea of a reasonable amount of HP, but someone else might think that's too much. The line has to be drawn somewhere.)
2. Everyone should be able to access all parts of the game! Banning people is awful! The first game I played when I was a kid was Mario 1. In that game, you could not play level 2 without beating level 1. You were completely banned from level 2 if you, say, decided to run into Goombas instead of jumping over them. There was no way around it.
Even if you played for years, you weren't going to see level 2 without improving your game. Complaining that Nintendo was jump-crazy wouldn't change anything.
This is what's going on here. Some players don't want to/know how to kill the bad guys at a certain speed. Not killing bad guys fast enough makes a mission fail. And since it's a team game, that wastes other players' time.
Instead of improving, some players complain about Cryptic and elitists and whatever, but, just like complaining that Nintendo doesn't let you run into Goombas in Mario 1, that doesn't change the fact that the mission failed and 4 other people's good time was ruined. Since having a minimum DPS requirement is unavoidable in a combat game, the only way to succeed is for some people to step up their games or stick to Normal.
3. The OP complained instead of helping new players! Maybe because there's already a wealth of information online? There's a PVE section of this forum, the Hilbert guide, STOwiki, Reddit's guides, public channels that discuss PVE, the STO Academy build search where people post builds with the DPS they got on them, Youtube videos that show how to play missions.... Just google. The general discussion forum isn't a great place for build advice because such a post will disappear from the front page in a few hours.
Now, obviously some people haven't done this. There are two kinds: 1) players who don't know that all this information exists, and 2) players who refuse to read it even though they know it exists.
Cryptic could help with the first kind by providing better in-game info on mechanics and some way to measure performance. I don't know what will help the second kind, which is why I'd like some way to keep people out of Advanced if they aren't advanced players... there's just something that irks me about people who take pride in doing something badly, especially when they want to impose that incompetence on others. Some call that trolling.
But it is disingenuous for some people here to directly state that they will never improve their DPS to then complain that the OP didn't provide build help.
4. The OP and other elitists just want to farm Advanced! Maybe they are playing for rewards. Then again, what justification could a normal player have for doing Advanced unless it involves rewards as well?
In fact, one would think that Cryptic's choice to get rid of required objectives came about because people wanted farming to be made easier. And we all know which end of the player base was asking for Advanced to get dumbed down....
5. Good players are mean in chat if a mission fails! This goes against my experience with PUGging in STO, where it's usually the person with the lowest DPS who complains if the mission fails, usually by yelling at everyone in chat about how they don't know anything about teamwork or whatever. My guess is that people who consistently fail missions are the ones who get the most exasperated about it.
Again, this is why it's a good idea for Cryptic to have some kind of feedback on performance built into the game.
6. It's really hard to know your DPS at the moment! Not everyone has a parser! This is why Cryptic should never put a measure of player's performance in-game where it would be easy for new players to find and use! I think that answers itself.
If you want me to quantify look at the minimum requirements of normal, advance and elite. The gap of normal and advance is around 1-3k dps or around 1% of maximum potential. The gap between advance and elite is 40k+ dps or around 30-40% maximum potential.
huh? I notice pretty much no difference between advanced and elite. Compare for example the tholians in crystalline to undine in viscous cycle. Aren't they about the same. Or compare the borg tac cube to the planet killer. The one exception would be the Implacable ship but that's only due to inflated shield hardness.
What I'm getting at it normal has old style HP levels and advanced and elite have the bloated HP style. Elite maybe hits back a little harder in some cases, but this is based on species and situation more than anything else.
But to respond to the main point: Yes, 5000 is low. I haven't thought about dps in around 3 or 4 months but last I checked the typical ISA player either had 20,000 (10%) 8000 (40%) or 4000 (50%). If you get at least two 8000's or better in your group the three of you can win. If you get four 4000's you will most likely lose unless you are 50,000+ and or the 4000's use GW to effect.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
They want to have fun, just not -your- concept of fun that is victory at all costs, rather than doing things their way... the way they find fun - for that, I'd advise teaming up with other like minded people - even if it lowers the percieved 'quality' of pugs, at least everyone will be happy
..and isn't that the whole point of playing a game?
With regards to everyone being able to complete advance, the publicly available statistic is that there are players who literally parse 0 DPS, between 0 and 1k DPS. This is space by the way. There is no difference between one player doing 0 dps and them mailing to us the rewards directly or a mission with 5 players doing 0 dps and getting rewards for simply going inside the queue then leaving after a couple of mins.
Now is everyone happy with the current advance? Of course not because there are players who still do not complete public advance queue. The main difference now is that it was lowered to skill level of players who have spamming complains in the forums in different threads before. So in instead of pre nerf advance being able to complete at skill level 5, with 20 being elite, it is now at skill level 4, With normal being 1. You still have players who arent able to do from skill level 3 down to skill level 0.
Supporters advance nerf who suddenly vanished nowadays was a self serving way to get a subset of players to be able to complete advance without improving but leave the others who have lower skills than these complainants high and dry. Because if these same players are really "representing" communism for completing advance queue this should include everyone including the dead weights, players doing 0 DPS, trolls, leeches and still be spamming threads to nerf advance queues.
First off, I'd like to think that the "supporters of Nerfing advanced" understand and attempt to strike a balance between keeping skill level differentiated play (ie, you need to be of an "advanced" level to complete an "advanced" mission) and preventing the advancement of "negative playstyles".
The removal of auto-fail for advanced, to me at least, is less about "letting that skill level 4 player" complete advanced and more about "messing with a negative playstyle". To wit, the "common troll" who thinks that it's "more fun" to ruin 4 people's game via intentionally failing the mission. You know, those guys who run right in ISA when the team's gone left, or call probe duty then let that first probe slip by, heck, you can have 3 trolls jump CCA and park at 9.9 when the Entity spams it's 33% death-wave, ruining 7 other peeps chance at getting the reward.
With this change, the troll goes from wiping out my 5 minutes or so in mission + the 30 minute cooldown timer's worth of my session to only wiping out a couple dozen marks. Suddenly deprived of their "fun", it is believed (hoped) that the troll will then move on to "greener" pastures like attempting to troll Elite missions that still keep the auto-fail stuff. OF course, with the belief that Elite is "best done" with fleet/channel mates instead of the average PuG, the troll would then be "player moderated" out of the channels and left with the masochists who attempt to PuG elite - and even Cryptic hinted that they won't mess with Elite's auto fail model because it was meant for the best of the best and "private" play...
Trolls trolled out of the game? Awesome. It just so happens that now "skill level 4 peeps" can complete advanced when they "really shouldn't"? Do keep in mind that, outside of maybe the Dilithium and "fancy reputation token", an optional-failed Advanced pays identically to a normal, but takes a lot more time. Perhaps these skill level 4 peeps might come to understand that spamming normals faster + using the mark to token conversion project might be more efficient than attempting to jump skill levels they're not prepared for over a measly token...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Reading through the nested quotes to put the request for links into context shows that they are aware of the Skill Planner, but are asking for particular examples.
Your snark is noted, care to make a more helpful contribution?
Well, it's apparent that there are a ton load of players, who obviously do not use and/or, even know about this site, despite it having been around for quite awhile.
Because the link I gave, is right where people should normally start looking for builds!!!
I'm sorry and I don't disagree when someone can't kill things etc is a tad annoying.
BUT.
telling someone to stay out of a section on the game when there isn't a easy way to tell what your build is, is a tad rude at best.
to the casual player Dps isn't something they even consider let alone know how to tell what their Dps is without a 3rd party plug in.
The OP is just being an arrogant troll.What good does 500 Billion dps do you when you're dps is zero while dead?
Min maxing and power creep has gotten so out of hand in this game, there are entire channels dedicated to the
"Dps is everything" cult.
Cryptic needs to crack down hard on this trend now before it gets any worse. I don't see the need for much nerfing yet, but they need to STOP the power creep before it gets any worse.
As soon as the difference between min maxers and non min maxers gets too large, the devs start balancing the game for the top 10% and then we get this kind of TRIBBLE going on in the community.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Genuinely asking: how difficult would it be for a table to pop up at the end listing the damage dealt by each person in an STF?
They had this a long time ago in the original Crystalline Entity Fleet Action and also the Undine Fleet Action I believe. It was removed because people felt outed.
Because of people like the OP who will insult people for not doing l337 dps like they do.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
huh? I notice pretty much no difference between advanced and elite. Compare for example the tholians in crystalline to undine in viscous cycle. Aren't they about the same. Or compare the borg tac cube to the planet killer. The one exception would be the Implacable ship but that's only due to inflated shield hardness.
This is very subjective basis. Parse it, look at total HP, look at how much damage NPCs deal to you and your team. Look at how more potent the abilities are in elite compared to advance. There is a huge difference between elite and there advance versions. I dont need to put those numbers here since you should know it by now being a veteran.
Even the devs admitted the hardest elite arent for show nor nowhere near advance.
First off, I'd like to think that the "supporters of Nerfing advanced" understand and attempt to strike a balance between keeping skill level differentiated play (ie, you need to be of an "advanced" level to complete an "advanced" mission) and preventing the advancement of "negative playstyles".
And the basis of this balance is skill level 4? How unbiased of them? If you have done all the hardest STFS in game, the middle ground and balance aint skill level 4.
But then again the skill level 4 havent done anything beyond skill level 4 right to have a good idea what is balanced? When one is building 100 floors, the middle ground is level 50. However, the point of reference of others is 10 floor so for them when they transfer to the 100 floors building the middle ground for them is the 5th floor.
Besides, if you actually look who I was responding to, I was responding to a reply that all players regardless of skill must be able to complete advance.
The OP is just being an arrogant troll.What good does 500 Billion dps do you when you're dps is zero while dead?
Great example of my point above. The OP was talking about 5000 DPS. Gradii, who presumably has no idea what 5000 DPS is, jumps straight to 500,000,000,000 DPS. It's all the same when the numbers don't have meaning to you.
(For those of you playing along at home, 5000 is about the DPS of fleet support iii. 500,000,000,000 is the DPS of 5 million decent players on the same map.)
Cryptic needs to crack down hard on this trend now before it gets any worse. I don't see the need for much nerfing yet, but they need to STOP the power creep before it gets any worse.
If you think the OP is asking for an insanely high DPS in advanced, then Cryptic will have to take some really drastic measures to get everyone down around 1K dps. Like, say, keep people from getting within 10km of the enemies most of the time. Reduce ships to having 1 weapon slot. Give enemies 99.9% resistance to all damage. You know, completely break the game.
Otherwise, even if the gear gets all equalized, the fact that good players point the ship in the right direction and shoot means that they're going to be doing a lot more DPS than bad players do.
And here we are again... back at the same old argument.... DPS....
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
And here we are again... back at the same old argument.... DPS....
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
I have been watching this thread, and I decided to join a advanced STF (Infected), I was flying my T5U Excelsior (It has a AP build on it). When the match started, 2 ppl stated they were not going to carry a T5U ship and left, one other asked what my DPS was, and I stated I personally do not track it, he/she left as well.
The other person didn't say anything and left, at that point I left as well. It is a clear example to me that DPS is now the end game thing. I guess no more STFs for me.
And here we are again... back at the same old argument.... DPS....
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
I have been watching this thread, and I decided to join a advanced STF (Infected), I was flying my T5U Excelsior (It has a AP build on it). When the match started, 2 ppl stated they were not going to carry a T5U ship and left, one other asked what my DPS was, and I stated I personally do not track it, he/she left as well.
The other person didn't say anything and left, at that point I left as well. It is a clear example to me that DPS is now the end game thing. I guess no more STFs for me.
DPS isn't the only necessity but, it is necessary to a degree!
The dps required to handle advanced missions, is quite low, like really low in comparrison to the highest potential seen in this game.
Yet, there are those who cannot even sustain that little bit and/or, cannot even match the paltry dps of even a shuttle/hangar pets/space vs ground.
That's right, i have seen people kicking out dps #'s that barely can beat what someone can inflict in ground combat!
Imagine that, most in part because they either do so on purpose and/or, they have no concept of simple game mechanics/instructions.
DPS #'s is primarily a tool, used to show potential combat ability and, while a certain amount is needed to succeed, it isn't a necessity for HUGE amounts of it to play advanced missions.
Many people post low dps #'s, because they don't engage enemies often or, at all!
Others it might be skill/gear choices, might be possible internet issues, etc.
But, one would expect those who are trying, to actually improve over time, yet in many cases they do not!
And here we are again... back at the same old argument.... DPS....
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
I have been watching this thread, and I decided to join a advanced STF (Infected), I was flying my T5U Excelsior (It has a AP build on it). When the match started, 2 ppl stated they were not going to carry a T5U ship and left, one other asked what my DPS was, and I stated I personally do not track it, he/she left as well.
The other person didn't say anything and left, at that point I left as well. It is a clear example to me that DPS is now the end game thing. I guess no more STFs for me.
And that's what makes this discussion even worse in my opinion. The idea that "everyone wants the deeps" is pervasive in this game and even the devs have admitted to this; "The Heralds are the toughest enemies yet." It's just sad that time and again people who have the big dps builds cry out "We want harder!" and when Cryptic does that, dragging everyone else for the ride suddenly it's "unjustified" or "catering" that us casual players are't as frelling "hardcore" about doing their damage, or being on their level and rightly tell Cryptic so.
no, you see.... catering was making everything frelling harder in the first place. Hell no I don't want to do /your/ damage. I just want the frelling elite tokens so I can have something that lets me feel like i've not wasted 4 days of angry people, nay-sayers, and snobby yotz telling me i'm "worthless" while trying to get elite tokens for an assimilated module.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
And here we are again... back at the same old argument.... DPS....
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
You can't tank without dealing a substantial amount of damage in comparison to your team first though.
I have been watching this thread, and I decided to join a advanced STF (Infected), I was flying my T5U Excelsior (It has a AP build on it). When the match started, 2 ppl stated they were not going to carry a T5U ship and left, one other asked what my DPS was, and I stated I personally do not track it, he/she left as well.
The other person didn't say anything and left, at that point I left as well. It is a clear example to me that DPS is now the end game thing. I guess no more STFs for me.
Wait... are you telling me that people are now starting to discriminate over ship choices now?
From what I understand, when the top tier was still T5... the Excelsior Retrofit and Fleet Excelsior was a pretty awesome ship. Now we got T5U Excelsiors out there, and they're getting shafted by people "Not wanting to carry a T5U", which implies they feel that T5U is now n00b quality.
That scenario is a load of Elitist Ego BS. Didn't even give a chance and they wrote off the Excelsior. I have NEVER seen this kind of behavior before in any STF I've been in.
This is very subjective basis. Parse it, look at total HP, look at how much damage NPCs deal to you and your team. Look at how more potent the abilities are in elite compared to advance. There is a huge difference between elite and there advance versions. I dont need to put those numbers here since you should know it by now being a veteran.
There's not too many elite space missions. I'm thinking mostly of Viscous and Korfez which is mainly what I played. Viscous elite really only requires 5000 dps (or less). If you are engaging the Undine you are just wasting time.
I personally believe Korfez requires 30,000 team dps. Others claim it's only 20,000. This is a good step up from most advanced missions. I think, really, this thread is about the Borg missions. They are heavily dps gated. Others don't really require much if any dps at all: viscous, borg disconnected, azure, and others I'm too tired to think of right now.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I personally believe Korfez requires 30,000 team dps.
I was in a fleet group that ran Korfez, and I took my 3k DPS Scryer (WIP Plasma Biomatter build) in. Beat the Benthan wave with her, and we ALWAYS expect to fail there.
Crowd Control Grav Wells and Aceton Assimilators made my ship less kill and more utility. But it was a tough fight.
In that case I think luck and tactics made up for the lack of DPS, but Korfez is a heavy DPS mission for sure.
And here we are again... back at the same old argument.... DPS....
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
You can't tank without dealing a substantial amount of damage in comparison to your team first though.
Actually you can... there's a reason Cruisers have the command "attract fire" and why your skill tree has "threat control" you don't have to do significant DPS to pull aggro, you just need to know how to do it.
The only way you can have aggro move via DPS in that case is if someone else has the same amount of threat control you do AND high DPS(which is fine, if you're intentionally trying to "one-man" everything) Threat control as a means of DPS builds was effective in PVP but now that that's mostly gone those builds are filtering into PvE and all the trash-talking elitism that goes with them, sadly.
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
Actually you can... there's a reason Cruisers have the command "attract fire" and why your skill tree has "threat control" you don't have to do significant DPS to pull aggro, you just need to know how to do it.
The only way you can have aggro move via DPS in that case is if someone else has the same amount of threat control you do AND high DPS(which is fine, if you're intentionally trying to "one-man" everything) Threat control as a means of DPS builds was effective in PVP but now that that's mostly gone those builds are filtering into PvE and all the trash-talking elitism that goes with them, sadly.
That's one of my next projects. I wanted to build an Eng tank with my Delta Recruit. I came back to her a few days ago to test her out in a PUG at ISA. Even if I can't remember how to fly it (I can't remember what half of the abilities in my tray were), it still made 7k in ISA with MkVIII-X gear (no reputation gear yet) from the DR rewards/drops, no DOffs, but I was running the +Th embassy plasma consoles (Mk X). I was able to draw some aggro (at the start especially and the first transformer) but as everyone else's threat ramped up (had some heavy hitters in that run), I lost all aggro.
Since I PUG a lot, I also noticed a trend where people's DPS is starting to creep up. A few months ago, it wasn't unusual to see PUGs with a majority of people doing less than 8k. Now, 4/5 groups I've been in had the majority of players doing above 10k (or even 20k+) so in my experience at least, PUGs are getting better. Maybe players are getting better or maybe it's just the power creep filtering down, either way pretty soon you won't be able to tank effectively at below 5k.
A properly built tank seems like fun though so I plan to continue building her over time. It's just so much more fun playing my CC science ship at the moment so that's where my attention is now.
Since I PUG a lot, I also noticed a trend where people's DPS is starting to creep up. A few months ago, it wasn't unusual to see PUGs with a majority of people doing less than 8k. Now, 4/5 groups I've been in had the majority of players doing above 10k (or even 20k+) so in my experience at least, PUGs are getting better. Maybe players are getting better or maybe it's just the power creep filtering down, either way pretty soon you won't be able to tank effectively at below 5k.
The median in the current table of 17k+ unique accounts is 9k+ DPS which ranges from 233k DPS to 0 DPS and parsed from private and public runs in ISA. It is the only publicly available stat we have.
Comments
I think my response to you asking about my Scryer got buried before you got to see it though. >.<
GGA, for example, how often do PUG groups get the bonus timers? There are bad groups that don't deserve it, because they are a mess, and its all you can do to get out of it with as few deaths as possible. But then there are good groups that don't have the DPS for the timers but through good play make it a good run. Personally I rarely see the timer bonuses actually achieved.
The other day I ran a GGA with one of my alts, an engineer in a Sarr Theln with mostly mk 12 equipment. But I run it with a Grav Well and Tyken's Rift combo. This GGA I got into happened to have someone else doing the same thing. End result? Chaos was totally controlled. Probes and portals weren't a problem and all the ships stayed in nice neat bunches due to good timing of our wells, and a couple of times when the Dreadnaught jumped, it got yanked right back into the grav well it just left. At some points the adds were utterly shut down by the Tyken's rifts and other drains going on meaning their damage output was just a tickle if not zero. Probably the smoothest run I've had to date, but we simply couldn't meet the optional timers. We missed the Dreadnaught timer by a minute at least.
So because we didn't have the DPS to get the optionals, did that group not belong in advanced? That is clearly implied by Cryptic's timers and the new reward schemes, yet I can't imagine anything more ridiculous, given how easy the run was.
Quantitatively, you could say we were a weak group, yet qualitatively, nothing actually supports that. I wonder what Cryptic would actually see, looking at a parse of that group. What would anyone see? Not quite enough DPS or an incredibly easy run? Yet, if it was an easy run on advanced, why should we even bother with normal when that has even less challenge?
And that is another point to remember. The gap between normal and advanced is quite large. It is hard to say someone is ready for advanced just because they find normal easy.
Finally, the issue of helping players is a lot of talk and little action. Telling someone to google or search the forums for builds and information is not particularly helpful. Sure you can find builds that way, but what then? Few of them are not built on very expensive, fully upgraded fleet equipment. And how someone actually uses the build to get good DPS is certainly not something you find in the list of equipment on the ship, because let us be absolutely clear here, simply putting mk 12 equipment with matching consoles on your ship in no way guarantees good DPS. Most of the builds that I've seen are not aimed at newbies or people struggling at all, they are aimed at the elite that already have a good idea of how to use them and can afford them.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/search.php
You need only have looked here the whole time!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
It's not really taking it a bit too far, when the people we complain about, has had a year or better to improve and, yet we find a large amount of them still not getting anywhere farther, than they were a year or longer ago.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The gap isnt that large from normal to advance even before the nerf. The problem is the player who complains and their perspective. The other issue is the varied group especially true for Puggers. There is a possibility. that player got a better group in Normal than their advance. The second issue is the objective comprehension. Yes a player can kill, heal aggro but did those players even actually read what are the objectives? Look at the complaints of Fail optionals in these forums. How can someone finish advance if players dont even know what are the objectives what are the optionals?
If you want me to quantify look at the minimum requirements of normal, advance and elite. The gap of normal and advance is around 1-3k dps or around 1% of maximum potential. The gap between advance and elite is 40k+ dps or around 30-40% maximum potential.
Majority of competency is based on piloting. Piloting cannot be taught by the devs. The experts in piloting are the players themselves. Builds and gears are just secondary to piloting. If you want me to quantify, 0-50k DPS is mostly piloting.
Yes, that's under 1k
Gosh, so the damage output of his entire star ship exactly equals that of my lead space tac toon with millions of ec and dil for space traits and ship gear… when she is on ground.
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> http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/search.php
>
> You need only have looked here the whole time!
Reading through the nested quotes to put the request for links into context shows that they are aware of the Skill Planner, but are asking for particular examples.
Your snark is noted, care to make a more helpful contribution?
Feel free to grumble about them - Hell, I often do, but calling for bans and limits? Really? If someone underperforming in a bloody game is your only worry, enough to warrant this cesspool of a thread; I'd say you are doing extremely well
As others have said, if you pug, you are taking pot luck with your teamates - but more than that, you are engaging with others concepts of 'fun' - if they want to run all torp builds or run around with rainbows or run pure CC builds with 130 aux and a spit in weapons, or, heaven forbid (
(Regarding underperforming in advanced stfs, they have their own penalties - the injury system - popping critical repairs every 5 minutes can cost a lot)
They want to have fun, just not -your- concept of fun that is victory at all costs, rather than doing things their way... the way they find fun - for that, I'd advise teaming up with other like minded people - even if it lowers the percieved 'quality' of pugs, at least everyone will be happy
..and isn't that the whole point of playing a game?
I'm an Arc user? Yeah, right..I'd rather eat a chainsaw, blade first
With regards to everyone being able to complete advance, the publicly available statistic is that there are players who literally parse 0 DPS, between 0 and 1k DPS. This is space by the way. There is no difference between one player doing 0 dps and them mailing to us the rewards directly or a mission with 5 players doing 0 dps and getting rewards for simply going inside the queue then leaving after a couple of mins.
Now is everyone happy with the current advance? Of course not because there are players who still do not complete public advance queue. The main difference now is that it was lowered to skill level of players who have spamming complains in the forums in different threads before. So in instead of pre nerf advance being able to complete at skill level 5, with 20 being elite, it is now at skill level 4, With normal being 1. You still have players who arent able to do from skill level 3 down to skill level 0.
Supporters advance nerf who suddenly vanished nowadays was a self serving way to get a subset of players to be able to complete advance without improving but leave the others who have lower skills than these complainants high and dry. Because if these same players are really "representing" communism for completing advance queue this should include everyone including the dead weights, players doing 0 DPS, trolls, leeches and still be spamming threads to nerf advance queues.
Or, more simply: there are lots of carrier pets that now do more than 5k DPS. Fleet support will do more than 5K DPS. 5K is really small.
As always, the issue is that Cryptic provides no feedback, so the only way to tell if a build is good is to parse DPS (just running a mission won't help because 80% of the people there aren't you). And then some people who do that post a number like 5k, which might as well be 500k for players who have no idea what those numbers mean.
This debate would be over if Cryptic provided some easy, in-game way to test a ship's performance. I think that a lot of the "I hate DPS" people would change their tunes if they understood what the numbers mean and that 5k is really not that much at all.
Some specific responses:
1. Cryptic went DPS craaaaazy! Please explain how to create a combat game without a minimum DPS requirement. Any objective of the form "Destroy X objects with Y HP in Z time" will have a minimum damage per second requirement of X*Y/Z. Even if the game doesn't provide a time, you still have to destroy those objects faster than they can heal themselves... and faster than it takes to get completely bored.
The only way to avoid a DPS requirement is to create non-combat missions. Even the weakest NPCs will impose a minimum DPS requirement, and there will always be some players who don't meet that requirement. (At what point does an NPC become an "hp sponge"? Maybe you have an idea of a reasonable amount of HP, but someone else might think that's too much. The line has to be drawn somewhere.)
2. Everyone should be able to access all parts of the game! Banning people is awful! The first game I played when I was a kid was Mario 1. In that game, you could not play level 2 without beating level 1. You were completely banned from level 2 if you, say, decided to run into Goombas instead of jumping over them. There was no way around it.
Even if you played for years, you weren't going to see level 2 without improving your game. Complaining that Nintendo was jump-crazy wouldn't change anything.
This is what's going on here. Some players don't want to/know how to kill the bad guys at a certain speed. Not killing bad guys fast enough makes a mission fail. And since it's a team game, that wastes other players' time.
Instead of improving, some players complain about Cryptic and elitists and whatever, but, just like complaining that Nintendo doesn't let you run into Goombas in Mario 1, that doesn't change the fact that the mission failed and 4 other people's good time was ruined. Since having a minimum DPS requirement is unavoidable in a combat game, the only way to succeed is for some people to step up their games or stick to Normal.
3. The OP complained instead of helping new players! Maybe because there's already a wealth of information online? There's a PVE section of this forum, the Hilbert guide, STOwiki, Reddit's guides, public channels that discuss PVE, the STO Academy build search where people post builds with the DPS they got on them, Youtube videos that show how to play missions.... Just google. The general discussion forum isn't a great place for build advice because such a post will disappear from the front page in a few hours.
Now, obviously some people haven't done this. There are two kinds: 1) players who don't know that all this information exists, and 2) players who refuse to read it even though they know it exists.
Cryptic could help with the first kind by providing better in-game info on mechanics and some way to measure performance. I don't know what will help the second kind, which is why I'd like some way to keep people out of Advanced if they aren't advanced players... there's just something that irks me about people who take pride in doing something badly, especially when they want to impose that incompetence on others. Some call that trolling.
But it is disingenuous for some people here to directly state that they will never improve their DPS to then complain that the OP didn't provide build help.
4. The OP and other elitists just want to farm Advanced! Maybe they are playing for rewards. Then again, what justification could a normal player have for doing Advanced unless it involves rewards as well?
In fact, one would think that Cryptic's choice to get rid of required objectives came about because people wanted farming to be made easier. And we all know which end of the player base was asking for Advanced to get dumbed down....
5. Good players are mean in chat if a mission fails! This goes against my experience with PUGging in STO, where it's usually the person with the lowest DPS who complains if the mission fails, usually by yelling at everyone in chat about how they don't know anything about teamwork or whatever. My guess is that people who consistently fail missions are the ones who get the most exasperated about it.
Again, this is why it's a good idea for Cryptic to have some kind of feedback on performance built into the game.
6. It's really hard to know your DPS at the moment! Not everyone has a parser! This is why Cryptic should never put a measure of player's performance in-game where it would be easy for new players to find and use! I think that answers itself.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
First off, I'd like to think that the "supporters of Nerfing advanced" understand and attempt to strike a balance between keeping skill level differentiated play (ie, you need to be of an "advanced" level to complete an "advanced" mission) and preventing the advancement of "negative playstyles".
The removal of auto-fail for advanced, to me at least, is less about "letting that skill level 4 player" complete advanced and more about "messing with a negative playstyle". To wit, the "common troll" who thinks that it's "more fun" to ruin 4 people's game via intentionally failing the mission. You know, those guys who run right in ISA when the team's gone left, or call probe duty then let that first probe slip by, heck, you can have 3 trolls jump CCA and park at 9.9 when the Entity spams it's 33% death-wave, ruining 7 other peeps chance at getting the reward.
With this change, the troll goes from wiping out my 5 minutes or so in mission + the 30 minute cooldown timer's worth of my session to only wiping out a couple dozen marks. Suddenly deprived of their "fun", it is believed (hoped) that the troll will then move on to "greener" pastures like attempting to troll Elite missions that still keep the auto-fail stuff. OF course, with the belief that Elite is "best done" with fleet/channel mates instead of the average PuG, the troll would then be "player moderated" out of the channels and left with the masochists who attempt to PuG elite - and even Cryptic hinted that they won't mess with Elite's auto fail model because it was meant for the best of the best and "private" play...
Trolls trolled out of the game? Awesome. It just so happens that now "skill level 4 peeps" can complete advanced when they "really shouldn't"? Do keep in mind that, outside of maybe the Dilithium and "fancy reputation token", an optional-failed Advanced pays identically to a normal, but takes a lot more time. Perhaps these skill level 4 peeps might come to understand that spamming normals faster + using the mark to token conversion project might be more efficient than attempting to jump skill levels they're not prepared for over a measly token...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Well, it's apparent that there are a ton load of players, who obviously do not use and/or, even know about this site, despite it having been around for quite awhile.
Because the link I gave, is right where people should normally start looking for builds!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The OP is just being an arrogant troll.What good does 500 Billion dps do you when you're dps is zero while dead?
Min maxing and power creep has gotten so out of hand in this game, there are entire channels dedicated to the
"Dps is everything" cult.
Cryptic needs to crack down hard on this trend now before it gets any worse. I don't see the need for much nerfing yet, but they need to STOP the power creep before it gets any worse.
As soon as the difference between min maxers and non min maxers gets too large, the devs start balancing the game for the top 10% and then we get this kind of TRIBBLE going on in the community.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Because of people like the OP who will insult people for not doing l337 dps like they do.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
This is very subjective basis. Parse it, look at total HP, look at how much damage NPCs deal to you and your team. Look at how more potent the abilities are in elite compared to advance. There is a huge difference between elite and there advance versions. I dont need to put those numbers here since you should know it by now being a veteran.
Even the devs admitted the hardest elite arent for show nor nowhere near advance.
And the basis of this balance is skill level 4? How unbiased of them? If you have done all the hardest STFS in game, the middle ground and balance aint skill level 4.
But then again the skill level 4 havent done anything beyond skill level 4 right to have a good idea what is balanced? When one is building 100 floors, the middle ground is level 50. However, the point of reference of others is 10 floor so for them when they transfer to the 100 floors building the middle ground for them is the 5th floor.
Besides, if you actually look who I was responding to, I was responding to a reply that all players regardless of skill must be able to complete advance.
Great example of my point above. The OP was talking about 5000 DPS. Gradii, who presumably has no idea what 5000 DPS is, jumps straight to 500,000,000,000 DPS. It's all the same when the numbers don't have meaning to you.
(For those of you playing along at home, 5000 is about the DPS of fleet support iii. 500,000,000,000 is the DPS of 5 million decent players on the same map.)
If you think the OP is asking for an insanely high DPS in advanced, then Cryptic will have to take some really drastic measures to get everyone down around 1K dps. Like, say, keep people from getting within 10km of the enemies most of the time. Reduce ships to having 1 weapon slot. Give enemies 99.9% resistance to all damage. You know, completely break the game.
Otherwise, even if the gear gets all equalized, the fact that good players point the ship in the right direction and shoot means that they're going to be doing a lot more DPS than bad players do.
Did you know there are player out there who do under 5k DPS..... Get this..... On purpose!?!?!
Shocking, right?!? Why would anyone not do all the damage? Maybe it's because some people actually want to be healers or tankers. Perish the thought that a game company would make a game where those three Archetypes exists yet would /never/ want a player to actually play those rolls.... I mean.. It's not like STO created Klingons just so nobody would use them.... Right? RIIIIGHT?
I have been watching this thread, and I decided to join a advanced STF (Infected), I was flying my T5U Excelsior (It has a AP build on it). When the match started, 2 ppl stated they were not going to carry a T5U ship and left, one other asked what my DPS was, and I stated I personally do not track it, he/she left as well.
The other person didn't say anything and left, at that point I left as well. It is a clear example to me that DPS is now the end game thing. I guess no more STFs for me.
DPS isn't the only necessity but, it is necessary to a degree!
The dps required to handle advanced missions, is quite low, like really low in comparrison to the highest potential seen in this game.
Yet, there are those who cannot even sustain that little bit and/or, cannot even match the paltry dps of even a shuttle/hangar pets/space vs ground.
That's right, i have seen people kicking out dps #'s that barely can beat what someone can inflict in ground combat!
Imagine that, most in part because they either do so on purpose and/or, they have no concept of simple game mechanics/instructions.
DPS #'s is primarily a tool, used to show potential combat ability and, while a certain amount is needed to succeed, it isn't a necessity for HUGE amounts of it to play advanced missions.
Many people post low dps #'s, because they don't engage enemies often or, at all!
Others it might be skill/gear choices, might be possible internet issues, etc.
But, one would expect those who are trying, to actually improve over time, yet in many cases they do not!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
And that's what makes this discussion even worse in my opinion. The idea that "everyone wants the deeps" is pervasive in this game and even the devs have admitted to this; "The Heralds are the toughest enemies yet." It's just sad that time and again people who have the big dps builds cry out "We want harder!" and when Cryptic does that, dragging everyone else for the ride suddenly it's "unjustified" or "catering" that us casual players are't as frelling "hardcore" about doing their damage, or being on their level and rightly tell Cryptic so.
no, you see.... catering was making everything frelling harder in the first place. Hell no I don't want to do /your/ damage. I just want the frelling elite tokens so I can have something that lets me feel like i've not wasted 4 days of angry people, nay-sayers, and snobby yotz telling me i'm "worthless" while trying to get elite tokens for an assimilated module.
You can't tank without dealing a substantial amount of damage in comparison to your team first though.
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Wait... are you telling me that people are now starting to discriminate over ship choices now?
From what I understand, when the top tier was still T5... the Excelsior Retrofit and Fleet Excelsior was a pretty awesome ship. Now we got T5U Excelsiors out there, and they're getting shafted by people "Not wanting to carry a T5U", which implies they feel that T5U is now n00b quality.
That scenario is a load of Elitist Ego BS. Didn't even give a chance and they wrote off the Excelsior. I have NEVER seen this kind of behavior before in any STF I've been in.
There's not too many elite space missions. I'm thinking mostly of Viscous and Korfez which is mainly what I played. Viscous elite really only requires 5000 dps (or less). If you are engaging the Undine you are just wasting time.
I personally believe Korfez requires 30,000 team dps. Others claim it's only 20,000. This is a good step up from most advanced missions. I think, really, this thread is about the Borg missions. They are heavily dps gated. Others don't really require much if any dps at all: viscous, borg disconnected, azure, and others I'm too tired to think of right now.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
I was in a fleet group that ran Korfez, and I took my 3k DPS Scryer (WIP Plasma Biomatter build) in. Beat the Benthan wave with her, and we ALWAYS expect to fail there.
Crowd Control Grav Wells and Aceton Assimilators made my ship less kill and more utility. But it was a tough fight.
In that case I think luck and tactics made up for the lack of DPS, but Korfez is a heavy DPS mission for sure.
Actually you can... there's a reason Cruisers have the command "attract fire" and why your skill tree has "threat control" you don't have to do significant DPS to pull aggro, you just need to know how to do it.
The only way you can have aggro move via DPS in that case is if someone else has the same amount of threat control you do AND high DPS(which is fine, if you're intentionally trying to "one-man" everything) Threat control as a means of DPS builds was effective in PVP but now that that's mostly gone those builds are filtering into PvE and all the trash-talking elitism that goes with them, sadly.
That's one of my next projects. I wanted to build an Eng tank with my Delta Recruit. I came back to her a few days ago to test her out in a PUG at ISA. Even if I can't remember how to fly it (I can't remember what half of the abilities in my tray were), it still made 7k in ISA with MkVIII-X gear (no reputation gear yet) from the DR rewards/drops, no DOffs, but I was running the +Th embassy plasma consoles (Mk X). I was able to draw some aggro (at the start especially and the first transformer) but as everyone else's threat ramped up (had some heavy hitters in that run), I lost all aggro.
Since I PUG a lot, I also noticed a trend where people's DPS is starting to creep up. A few months ago, it wasn't unusual to see PUGs with a majority of people doing less than 8k. Now, 4/5 groups I've been in had the majority of players doing above 10k (or even 20k+) so in my experience at least, PUGs are getting better. Maybe players are getting better or maybe it's just the power creep filtering down, either way pretty soon you won't be able to tank effectively at below 5k.
A properly built tank seems like fun though so I plan to continue building her over time. It's just so much more fun playing my CC science ship at the moment so that's where my attention is now.
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The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
The median in the current table of 17k+ unique accounts is 9k+ DPS which ranges from 233k DPS to 0 DPS and parsed from private and public runs in ISA. It is the only publicly available stat we have.